HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 7. (Concluded) THE MINISTERIAL RESOLUTIONS.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume XX, Issue 2304, 8 December 1864, Page 5

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 7. (Concluded ) THE MINISTERIAL RESOLUTIONS.

Tirt! SprAKfß losumcd the clinir at a few minutes pa' t b o'clock, «uid the debate on the amendmfnti to Urn 'UiiiHteiiiil resolutions was lecommenced by **'lilt."T l''nzGßiu.i.D,l ''nzGBiu.i.D, who Imd moved the adjounnn -nt of -the ! hato. He «aid he was sine the House would reinetulirr that a few dajs iigo the lion, member for the Isaj of Islands hail told them that in any sp«ech which ho mi'^ht deliver he could compress his addiess and cxpiess hib whole ideas into the small space ol twenty miiiut'-'fi — that they could well excuse him on such ail lriipoib mb question as that befoie the floine, for having e\cieded that tune by 15 minutes in the speech he had nude that inoining. Fiti when they considered that question as it stood before the Home at the picsent moment was at tho saiiiO time tho most coinpiehSusive And mo^st complex th.it had presented itself befoie that Assembly, a little exti.i discussion w..s pei fectly admissible to the lion, member. The subject had enhuged itself before their eyes, and at that time concentrated in itself almost all the important subjects which could be brought before the colony at that moment. They had discussed the -question of E Sponsible Government in its despotic bearings — f lind they had had the whole difference between' his Excellency and his late advisers imported into the debatn— they were asked to decide as to the sending home tlw troops, and weic asked at the s.une time to dismemW the colony. In a.dditiou they \\«ie asked to dismember the Constitution, and, lastly, the whole question of tho native policy had bceu brought before them as necessary to be comprehended m older to come to apiopp conclusion to-night on the resolutions placed before thorn. He could hardly conceive any i debate cominir before the House with which it was so ■"•difficult to deal — because it was "comprehensive— and tl at it would be quite impossible to expiess on all th« subjects we'uded those opinions which any membir might wMi toe\pttss upon all the raiious subji-cts then liefoio them. The question which lind been brought before them fiibt was one which had, he nonlil not say for what number of timps, been tliiown upon the floor of the House : tlTe question as to the ineuung airl .iction of the lesponsibilfty of Mmistei3. A mnnl'tir of inembeis from opposite sides of theHou-e had consented to call th.it icxpoiisibility which thoy h.ul some tune enjoyed as nothing more than a delusion an 1 a sham— -but "he did not coincide, in witli that opinion. He might say Lheie were two c'asses, two kinds of lespousibihty in government. As ho held the Coustitnliniiu.l doctnne the House would perhaps excuse him for going into that doctrine. % Muiisteis nngllb give advice — advising the Ciown to act or they might give advice to the Crown to act with impolicy. With regaid to the fiist— all Ministerial lesponsibihty in this colony huviga perfect sham, ib might be said that the case was diffeien(i fiom that existing at home. Because by tho common law of England a Mimatry who gave ai'vice to the Crown to to brink the luws of the land was liable at common law to fine and imprisonment ; and it might be, umler ceit.iiu cucumstancsa, to death. A^Alinistiy who advised the Crown to act simply with iiVprfliey could o.ily be punished by being turned out of office. In these roeeut times in lilnglnnd tint conlimruicy he had •illuded to, which lay at the basa of all responsible Government, had been inciged into the lessei punishment for the icason that theio had been no tcason for .cillinc; it into action ; an'l became whit they call at the ptcsent tune the constitutional practice of dopar tute fiom ofjice oE a Mimstiy, owiig to an adveiae intijoiity, had been accpted as an indie U'wn to him of those iuither cousequencsa which 'night follow if he weio able to lesist that intimation. "i?ut when they came to discuss thi3 question, to ,wk what was tho loot of responsible Govennnent, he would say that it lay on the block and nowheie e'sc ' (Ken, heat.) It was a fact that in Knsjl.ind a Minister advi-ing his Koveieign to bieak the laws might be I t ought to the scaffold That was making uspoistUlo Govemment <m actual and solemn reality But if oc mu i.ed in Pailiament in eveiy year, becmse if a Mmist y weie to go to Pailiiimeut f.i a \ote for public money and Parliament rcluscd thab vote, the Ahnistry was abs ilutely unable to advise tJie Crown to spend money in a manner winch the P.ulianient had not voted, because such advice would be a broach of the law and would bear with it criminal consequences. Bub in this colony they had w> traditions, no prece-, dents, as at home — no precedent currying wi'h ib punishment as in the old country for such enn-e-qii'iiii:e\ And, therefore, he would say all Patliainentaiy re&poiisibihby wliiek le y had must necessarily bo a sham — that is to say, witji icspect to the b'iibis of their ies|iousibihty. Thai in linglaml WcS only a polite form of intimating to a Ministry the leality which lay beyond that. He "hoped a Mi'iistiy would atise some day which _ would ])voposo a lall, and which wo'ild be cairied, by which constitutional ie pon>-ibility -of Jlinisters to.P.vilhinout would no longev rest- upon dtjiaitme fiom office but by which Ministcis would be nude amenable to the laws of the couufciy, aiid if advising the country to do t hat which was coutiaiy to the law, they should bo liable to whitcvev piun-hinenb might h» ad vised in the bill, and tuod by whatever court Mich bill mighb think it neco«safy to^icato for thcit jiui pose. He expressed his linn opinion tint tli-y hhould never see that real losponsibi lty which ihoy saw enjoyed in England until that wa> brought about. The lion, member for Dnncdm (Mr. Vogel). aaid several other hoi. mwibers in the .H'Uise, had stated that it was a bieach of I'ai iainenbxiy Government if a Minisbiy left office dining the recß-3, and did nut come down to the [lou-,e to give an account of th-ir KtewarJship Why, he might ask what diffeieuco was it to the House? -for if they did not like what tho Mimstiy hal done, they could t-ll them by a majority to go a'lout their bn^iiie's, and if they had 'done it ah ealy, then why should there be any objection raised 'In fact, it, was only an niconsideiation of what the real meaning of responsibility wi.B which could have siitrgoste-l that observation to tho hon. inomber. Butiji Kngland a Min.stcr going out of offici during the" reoc3-. did in nowise lose his lespoiisibillty, bepause he was equally amenable whether in or out of office; ho was equally amenable to the laws of the land for the advice he might have offvicd to his sovereign. The re-po'MOilifcy whioh could exi-t vi this country was t'> a ceitiin degree different from thab which existed in England. His hon?friend the Colonial So*crotary had stated in> his opening speech on the question,, that he c'onsideied that a Mini-try in this colony was situated in the samo- position with tho Governor of the colony as any Ministry was situated

to the constitutional sovereign in Europe ne' .thought 'he would be prepared to agreewith 1 him? that that was not a complete description of iHefpo^ sition in which' tha colony stood, <and "the thought upon this subject his Excellency's l»te' a'dyisewrhad shown a strange indifference to the different ciroumstanoes which obtained in the colony and the mother country ; aud, he asked 'the Consideration of ' the House to the point, because it was the sumo question in his opinion upon which the difference hadarisen. There wM a wide difference, he must say» between* dependency and' an old 'country ; the very fact of one being a dependency and the other an imperial con'ntiy would almost explain that of itself. In themother countiy tho Ministers were responsible for the whole action of tho Crown, and theie was 110 superior authority of any description, whatever to which they might have to refer. But in tho dependency, Ministers were respansible only iv those matters in which they might give advice. But there was over-shadowing that, the Imperial power, ai represented in the Governor,. aiid they of course hoard instances of Governors charged with gi eat powers ai, for instance, npon'thut question, whether the troops should be here or not — whether the colony should be at war or p.eace. Upon these subjects the Governor in tfie dept-ndency — the Governor himself — must exeicise his own individual »nd special will. Then suppose he was necessarily compelled by his instructions f i om home to remove from the sphere of responsible advisers, he might say he was obliged to remove thorn »nd ho could not help it, whether they agreed with him or noti That was one of tho essentially red differences between the Ministry m the colony and the homo country. He (Mr. F.) thought the Lite advisers had blinded themselves in the position which they held in the late Ministry, and that which they would have held in anindepeudent country, He could not hel,p thinkingthat his Excellency — he\vas compelled to allude to that 4 subjecfe becanse that pa<t of the subject itf which they were mw— - that part of the subject, because the lion, gentleman on the Ministerial benches had asked them to take one of the most important stopf over taken in this country — ho could not help thinking that the late advisers displayed a very extraordinary imdei standing on the action and responsibility of responsible Governments. In that struggle of wits, or should hs call it perns, between his Excellency and his late advisers— in that struggle he | could ii"t say on either side there was any great display of knowledge of the effects of responsible Govern menfc, bnt he was bound to say that of the two his Excellency appeared to have been a little better informe.l upon responsibility than hit Ministers, because insidiously, andutigeneiou-oly, and unkindly, his Excellency had allowed them to precipitate themselves into every hole which he assiduously dug for them in that correspondence which pawed between them. ( Langhter. ) He had sufficient consideration to say to them six months afterwards, Why, on earth, did they not resfgn?— (laughter) — and he (Mr. F.)wislWlikeniseto know why "they did not resign But they wrote most wondeiful memoranda, and he was quite sure that his Excellency had come 6'ut o£ that correspondence a much sadder.man, and it was not from want of good advice that he had not come out a wiser man. Whilst, however, they were writing troati'es on responsible Government, they were sacrificing the colony by the utter violation of its principles. The Mini-try would tell them that they had l>ien left in charge by tho House to carry out a policy, and they hal done theiv best to cai ry it out. But he thought there were indications that his Excellency f,a\v at a very caily period thatd'fierences must ari-.e in carrying out tint policy, and at a'veiy early peiiodhe showid where tho c differences existed, not very boldly, as his Excellency happened not to be a very bold or startling wiicer. but proving by indications, which oii'.'ht to" h,\ve been sufficient; to the minds of his Ministry, lo lead them to the conclusion of finding out where those differences were. Fie oont'-n'ded that, at a veiy early period after the House broke up last year, the lafe Ministry were, or ought to have been, in a po*i ion to have bcenawaie of tie f.u t — that the policy of the House could not becairied out — (oh, oh)— that theie were objections on the part of his EWcelleucy which rendered it impossible to eairy it out. (Hoar, hear.) If he did not find that out, be must say they showed a very wondoi ful want of sagacity. But the qnestion ai ose, what did they do? The House'liad voted thiee millions of money for gieat objects to bo achieved — objects which were dc^ciibeil to the House as that great struggle, the Batilo of Aiihag-iUon. which was to precede the Millenium of New Zc ilaud. That gieat stiuggle was to be the fir>t and la>t of the great w.ii s of New Zealand ; and the members of Assembly were to meet in a year's time, or aft°r eiwhtsen months, and see tho great object achieved Theflion'*{sentlemeu were to be commended for their" mo lesty in taAwg eighteen month i for the woilc which ww to |iie c.le the univeisal rei«n of jieuce; and bofoio everything could be done which would completely satisfy tho House that they had made a \Ol y c!ie ip bargain. He supposed that they voted that sum ot money for certiin object- ; bnt the late Miuistiy, long after thoso objects had vanished beyond the iealm< of pobsibi'ity — when it wt.s no longer possible under any conceivable c:reura>t.inces to am\e at those ends-j-saw no reason why those benefits shonldjiob be obtains 1 by falling npon the munificent distribution Of t|nee millions ; and so spent the mo-ley long after the peilod had elapsed when they could hope t > sucoee 1 iv tha intention for which it liacl been voted $ (Uemy- hear.) lie would .isk) was that responsible Government, if they were to make the Government amenable to th.c public voue fiom the House — which was what they had to do, when they c>ra|'lai>ied of i expansibility bomsj a slum' Weio they to make it a sham in that way! and if they had to make Government i sp'msiblc 111 1 the popular voice fiom the House, wad it to be on such a policy as Oiat pmsuetl by the late Government, namely, to abandon the only object in viaw by tint Hoase, and yet to spend the whole of the niouej? llu paid that when hon. meinbsis in th it 1 lou->e would not .ulim th it they had sac. iSdedthe whole lespoiiSibihty which they bad in nob lutngiug tho Governor to book, in orlcr that the flouso ha-.e an opportunity of raconsider.ng the case, they had lost, .; most favourable oppii aunty of upholding i heir position The memoianila which had. been furnished up >» the subject wue ihe m >sb deplorable chaptei iv the history of ie<spou>ihle Government, whkh he hoped the colony would evoi have to re id. He could not think the documents showed any £;icat political ability; he could not think they weie tha woik of me.i who had any great adtniniatrative.capacity ; but they were the work of most wondeiful aiticle wiiteis; and they weie memoranda wiittcn for Ihesi'te— on both sides, foi he tlncw them both into the same boat — not tor the'sake of pioducing lesnlts, but for the sake of showing each paity was wrong, because the lesults were not proclucad Ho did not doubt that that peilod would be looked back upon as the great memorandumiad, and the writers would be, looked upon as the great memolanduimniud. (Great -laughter.) Then the late Mmiitty ventuted to suppose that that House was going to woiship them as sjieat maityrain the cause of responsible Government ; because they hid saciih'cedevery possible principle of action which could have established losponsible Government in tho country. He, therefore, must say, that having f>uch a favourable opportunity ns they ha I—having1 — having it in their power to* In ing a lecalcitrant Governor to book, they careloasly sacrificed that oppoitnuity : and although he did not know what objects they might have iv view, he only knew that {bey obtained none. After this, be would tell them that, so far as that responsible Government went, he did not agree with those" who thought that the responsible Government in the country had been altogether a slum. And he believed that in spile of .all that they had done by their lsjiioiancßand mistaken ideas to make it a sham yotha ; thought fiete was some amount of reality in it. The Governor had been piactically governed in all but native affiiis by his Ministers for some seveiror eight yt-ais : and he venbmed to think on the whole with very gioat advantage to the population of the country. The country lu«d also bean governed in native affairs to a very l.vigo extent by the Ministry, for the Into Ministry would' not assent that niuu out of teu of the actions Avhich they pcrfoimad showed they had this power. It was tine, if they chose in the absence of that legal lesponsibility of which he had spoken, they might id ike "responsibility a sham* a farcu, at any time, as he thuu4h't Mmisteis had done;, bnt if they imulo it a leahty, as they had the power of doiug, it would be of gieat service to the colony. The proposal of the picseut Ministry fixed the responsibility at a thfinito point. They «aid the great interference in the systsm of responsible Government had been caused by the maintenance of the Imperial troops j aud ho would ns.lt was it to be denie I that that was ao ? His Excellency snid plainly enough, if bei Majesty's tioops were to conquer land he ought to hive a voice in the disposal of that land, and if they took priioiieis he had a voice in the disposal of those prUoieio. He was by her Mijosty'g Government with those pnwur*. He did «»t expect any lion, centleinan would stand up iv that House and say that if her Mnj 'Sty's tioops were to be employed in » didrjint dependency hoc Majesty'! Government should have no advantage. X tint woie Titleaipte'l, he could only chiracterise it as one of those pieces of colonial bounce which tended to make colonidts appear so lidiculous in the eyes ot, persons at home. If troops were paid' by Parliainentof theinothercountry,' did they suppone for a memerit 'th»t-th(it

Parliament' would'not'iwk how thqie;troopj|li«d;been^ employed,' whioh' of her Majesty 'sliulgeoti'ba&had tha^ "honourioE gettftg-wolmded'»nd killed l^HiMbWngt'^ b'een-th'e'oue (Juring the war in Chma^nd Jftpan/iindj should itTlot He so in here ? Did they suppose ttfafcroch«> iwslibjeofc would J not be fully can vWswihAhjo'BritisJaJ Houses of P*rli*ment, / and v tk'afc 654 v memfiers"of th»f,| Parliament'were' going to bow down to 1 slich a.timtXl^ force as that represented in the New Zealand Assefi:rtily|jK It 'vm , merely childish to indulge in sugh^vaiti^imft^ ginations'. ' (Heir, • hear.) It wm' a question which. 1 ?! the Home Government were greatly interested in,' and*; a question which they Would interfere in as to the endif for which the troop« were employed.^ "They^ Einusfc v make up their minds to submit to that ; but f ibS W*« t ■aid, and quite truly, by lion, members — -and thabiwas exactly the position of affairs — they submitted «fo/Im- J ' perial control' in the colony, for purposes ' connected"'' with the welfare of the empire ; but they were^nottto * submit for purposes ofinternal concerns. The presence of the ti oops, however, introduced Imperial authority, not' for purpose* of Imperial" control but < for colonial 1 mutters. It was not a matter for the Home Govern*' V menfc what became of tlie local concerns of the colony.' ff be Understood the position as proposed' by the •" Ministerial resplutions, it wa3 that 1f they removed th* 1 troops from New Zealand, they would have the^ inter • ference of the Home Government on matters only which referred to the welfare of the empire at large. But the hiitory of the last few month? had shown that it had beon the question of interference of" the Imperial Government in consequence 'of the presence of. the troops in the country in matters of purely local concern and interest that had produced the state of affairs which was felt to be so irksome to aIL That timo had been allowed to be an occasion of the greatest pos«ible- anxiety and public danger, and in which". tho.smemhers of Government, the Governor and Ministry,,' instead of uniting in a, common, vigorous, and junited'actiou to tave the colony from agraat impending danger, • had precipitated themselves with almost sectarian, ferocity and tried, tooth and nnil, to teaf each other's reputation to death. That had been the history of the colony for the past twelve months — a history"- »o ~ thoroughly disgraceful to tho colony in every possible way that he, ior one, was thoroughly ashamed that the documents had been put in print -and were going back to the home country, where they would ttrad co encourage those sneers under which, at the .present moment, the colony was keenly suffering. (Sea*J~ liear.) He therefore said, if there were no other reason, in the worjd for removing the troops it would be mffi-' cient — that one grtat reason he had adduced— that ridiculous, not to use a stronger term — that ridiculous explanation which had been deposited upon the table of tlm House with a self-oaMsßed pride, by 'the late Ministry, aad which woulJ, do the colony, 113 would • venture to say, more irretrievable mischief with all decent men in England than anything else that could possibly occur. He thought his hon. frieuds, the late • Ministry, were peifectly rfgbt not to say a word about the cosh of"the troops. He agreed with thowe hon: gentlemen who bad said tiiat it would bo exceedingly' ignominious, and wonlti be thought so in. England, if they were to say they ■would not have the troops because they could not pay for them. '1 hat would be an exceedingly undignified r course; that as long as -(hey could make anything by the troops they would keep then?, but when they could not the Home Government might take them away. He thought it was well they had not shfivvn this, but rather toko the higher reason, that the colony was perfectly at liberty to defend itself, from its unity iv Government, which tho presence of those troops presented their haviug. But' he thought the House would agree with him why.the troops should be lemov-ed, and which the war of last -I year compelled them to notice. He had been for the last few yeais in the colony, since his return ''from England, and lie had witnessed a most remarkable down- . fal in the national character of men in the colony as compared with their kindred »* home. He felt tHut that vicious principle of depending upon others, of being "rocked and dandled," as Edmund Burke said,"" of being taken in charge by the people at home,' was attended with most injurious influences,- arid striking at tjie national character of Englishmen in-the colony; and that wiw one great reason why the couVvtry should again stand by itself alone. The history of the war had been not in words but facts ; they had proclaimed it to the lower race that it took ten Englishmen . to kill 0110 Maori. (Hear, hear.-) They had rushed upon 'the unfortunate natives who were naked and starving, almost unarmed, compared to the troops ; they had gone against them with all conceivable implements of , war, which money or science could- put into their hands; and had not hesitated to acense them inthe public print l ), of cowardice, because they would not come out of their pas and fight when the troops were in a* favourable position. He might say ha had seen article after article in tho papers to this effect, because they -\\ould not cbarg^ a •regimentj-rnrmQilr'and-r-ca 'y nvm-nfter -man .with -, bayonets fixed ready for them. He must "-ay the system of depending npon tho troops for their defeuce wa* making cowards of all the colonists: every one of 'tliem uiu^t be affected by it. And if the*** system went* mi there would nob be a man in tho colony who would have the courage of an Englishman, loft in him. Tlity weivs striking at the "ety roof, of 1 their national character in maintaining such assist- . * ance, -wbi'sfc they had the insolence, in the security"of th',ir homes and within ilie frontier lines, to talk of the superiority of their race. He consequently said, if there was one tiling which tke colony had to t do more than another, ifc was to depend morß upon.--^ itself. Tf tbfcy were going to subdue the Maoris they - must take measures to make the 'hativeV- 1 espeob them. But he would ask lion members present, did. they think the^wa,r had made the" Maoris ie-.pept them * Instead of that, the natives laughed at them .* r they told them that they could nob beat them with twice 10,000, but they (tho'Maoiis) could beat the . English. This, he must say, was nob a figure himply, but fact : the Maws thoroughly believed that, hand to hand and man to man, tlie Bug- * hsh was theinfeiior r.ac 6 . That was their belief; p.nd the colonists had given them ovory conceivable reason for thinking «o Under those circumstances he asked the Eouss to a-sent to a, proposal which, would restore to the cilon-sts their manhood— and that, as he took if, would I c effected by the proposition of bis hon friend — and tint come what' might, the? would no longer bo d'gra'cl in having to depend upon others for their defence. Ho miglib pcrlups be petmitted to toll ihrm another leasonwhy be thought the troops should be removed ; and, to him, it was not without considerable significance. That reason was, lhab a large body — lie liop-d YlO English officer would in any wNe take the allusion, to himself -but a large body of foreign meicenaries _„ assembled in the country tended most seiiously to . create a political disfcuibance iv tke country A. political importance w.is given by this means to ceitain pa*ts of the country which did not justly belong to it, as the laige uicrcssu of inhabitants cud n'ofconsist of men who were going tfc live and die in the countiy, and whose foi tunes were bound up in it. Therefore, he contended that the presence of 10,000 - Ineh'in one pait of the colony was a cau^e which seiious'y disturbed the politic if unity of the colony. When lie mide these remarks lie was sine he"* would lie understood by the Mi-ld'e Island member?. BivJ it cjulil not be denied _ tint-, the , presence of such a la>'ge bidy aUo seriously disturbed the financial equilibrium of the colony. 1J« (MrvF.)had come from a part of the colony w here they hud never seeu armies assembled,- wh-re no Brituh soldier had seb his foot ; and where tliey had liot one siuglo s>ixpeucc which bad not lieeu provided t by themselves .But when he came to Auckland * and siw a town of tinea or fourfold the magnitude of the town ha came from— wheie coinmoice a?- ' j.eare.l to be thriving, houses going up on all sides. t be had boen lndiicjd'to ask, whit wai the financial 1 position of Auckland.? AVa* it a town on the high , road to commercial prosperity? "Wai it Singapore ? 'Was it Constantinople? -W.« it a mvvfc of trade? - He had found it nothing of the kind : therefore, » that could not be tbe 'source of its wealth. He * linked what were its pro lucts, and whafc its imports audoxpoiti?, - Its «xnorbs were absolubolyiiiiiig.illicaut comp,u;ed yrilh the country from winch he came; whiht'ita imports weiefo'irorlivefold in ex- , cess. Then AvJaab*- waVthe'resulfc 1 ~ Ib wa-s caay to - explain thii sbibe of affaijs.^ *lfc would be found that enormvis snm« of money-w ere introduce I to pay the- j troops— that tie troopV spen 1 o-ior.no h Minis ofmoney, ciexting a bubble— au I'niiabiiral bubble — and" Sinreal cjmmorcial importance ; disburbI in«< all its muiet-ry aviMngemjnis, and which must come down smash the m >inei)t that was uitlidriwn. Now ho said this in \uokliiud, aud bo would a 1 vise the Auckland nlon to look to ib Ila t jld them that tho commerui il position of Auckland was one which at that moment no E'iro;ioan power could po^ibly miintain for. in. my years, and be doubbed for mmy mouths. He did nob wish tno Auokl md membors to suppose that he was speaking , .against them ; b canso if his predictions did lipt' j cmno to ]?ass, j-o much tbo worse tor h m (Laughter )• 5 He did nut wish it 1 to come to pass ; but he toldf , fiem, :u sure as Ue^vns standing whore ho was that, it would." Finanuul an I comjnevciiL,iriii!(s wi"io, ( tine, whether they loo'.od at thdin or,iot'.^ Hesi tlieiefoio would say ib a-^aiu that-iho '^gnoial "and^ •commercial condition of .i \nckl.md rt wa?Aivberl^i\ii*;^ roal— solely anil nttovlydep ( ;n4]ngu^'jMsi)|uTi'!g^ of the money received*Uy^^^W?^^^MSE?l sooner Auckland opB»e%iW^y^s^^t^jtl^lMcer|^ because it was a magijilio^ent^guntiy^^ijtalc^ajjle^ of iivalling ,auy,'. otherfparbr^^gbj^^joir^ An 4 ftftfv thai r deprewooK**l^l»M^«^^^^

=%io%i&lwS^ u oF 5 the'ftnrtps^idj Cutting ' 'off ?tVd«€SB}^pBtwluoli it;r*ceived',froin the troops-it !STnsi^ffA>i|i«Uts-inagnißcont vharlipuy lands,;' and ",blaulytof«"«ii!ri,oUndipgr country, Sival, if not f?xoel. . thb-colnny.^ Thore was ho fear fort ~Aubltlaud'Vc»Sd l»Vij\iftt"sjiy no mau more than hiniprido iv seeing Auckhiud run' * a raceVith the rest of 'the colony. Did thoy think he cared where *<man settled,- so long as he thought 1 lie wasa comfortable .man 'and earning a livelihood ? But he said * Auckland *wai at the present time .propped up at the expense 'of the colonists of the -Middle Island/and they were not propped up at the cost of Auckland. He theref.nc said he objected to the troops remaining in the colony for that purpose - raising up what might ho said to be a great won and xtpon which allVhe colony was pouring ite lifebloorl. The sooner that state of things was jot lid of the better. His hou. friend, the member for the Bay, had -made some Very curious observations that day, which he would just notice. Ho had sajtt, speaking of the Hon. Colonial Sepretary. th.it lie had come up to Auckland with a cut, and dued Middle Island scheme, bnt lie knew ho would change his mind. By the fact of the Hon. Colonial Secivtaiy taking a note at the titno, he judged he had not up to that time changed his mind ; but the 'change would take place by audbye. Honourable members from the South, it was true, had come up to Auckland time after time fully deteiinined that sljould be the last, that a chance should take place; but toe did not I now whetlv r it was the delisih l s of Auckland, the magnificence nf«the clim ate—(hmghter)— or what eke ; but year after year hon members had let their Middle Island notions and , grades slip away, and had returned to their consti- , tuents perfectly careless. He therefore warned \is > hon. friend of that poison which, whilst drinking in ' \fith the ear in Auckland ev'eiy, hour, he might f.u*get Ms-t&sk, hut which it was not very wise of his hou. friend, the member for the Biy of Mauds, to allude to. He warned him of tlKwe seductions, whi'ih, if he did not be.vare of, would <ies f toy the whole of tho^e propositions which he was so distinpt in*' enunciating when upon the platform in the* town hall rf .Canterbury. ,Thoie -was another reason why, as he thought, the troops' should bo lemoved— but that was a very important leason. That reason was because' the chiiSctrr of the colo.iy was being degiaded in the eyes of *11- En«l.ind. All tho sneeis, all the hard, language which annoyed tho colonists so much wore »H, O ainied at th.it one f.ick. It was nicely, but rather sneerinely, stated in Mr. Caulwrll's 'ast de- - spatch, when he asked if it weie their opinion that England' ought to bo a tributary country to ? Ncw -Zealand.' Smne hon. geutlemon had. asked the question in tho "House— were going to liold out a threat to England? and he would tell them what they said : — "You need not tiouble yourselves about the war— the £40 a-heid will settle it." Tlnv wns just the character of his letteis. "Wo arc quite satisfied that 1 Card well has done the light thing, and there«wonld bo nothing more amusing than for. us to hear that you had paid the money. That is the polite intimation to you that you must send the troops home, — and so they put the set c won at the rate of £40 ahead." Thee could be uo doubt, therefore, that the Home Government would receive the answer — being thoroughly giatified a1;a 1 ; the Intel ligenee of its leception, and still * more gi.-i-titied that the colony hid comprehended its meaning lfe would' next take into consideration what were tha le.vsoiu adduced against the removal of the troopt.7." The hon. member tho Superintendent of Auckland h^d s >okcn on tln> subject, and he must siy he looked on that hni. gentleman's opinion with the greatest l expect, chuged as he was the groat responsibility of attending to the interests of the province of Auckland. He (Mr. Graham) had told them that if the troops were with- , drawn settlers houses' 'would be burned, and there would be no end of dish ess. He must *ay he was rather tired of that «I>l stitemeut. It wa3 something like Sydney Smith's idea of a massnere on a Monday, a massacre on a Tuesday, and positively the last time on'Satmday. He (Mr F.) tned to be frightened afc such thing*, but positive'y he could not get lip hi? imagination to believe there was going to 4 be any- mfiASacte at all, because he had not seen it, because they could not see tliei a was going to be a nia-sacre, and because tlieie never had been a massacre yet TlierS had been jjo excuse w hate\ er for the assertion that when we had not ftist mide war. upon the natives they hid murdered settlers. He could not submit t> that perpetual endeavour to argrfc the feeling of the Eusli-.11 sattfcr-. in that House totally without foundation, and' he could not believe, that the icsult would occiu. " Ha said with respect to the hon. member for Franklyn, who h.ul pioposed this amendment, ilhat he had been rathar.<fche,tnftl than.iha.oiigiu.ttti}? of.it. "* not believe that matter of this kind should be introduced when they were considering such au important question; but weie it &o, or weic this -^colony iv danger, the lion member at the 'head of the Government would be the f»>t to help them out of it. He had been concerned with the Maoris in peace aud war, and hekne. them .'s well as an) man could do in that House And did they suppose that by ' any rash steps he was going to gu 0,111) the settlers to slaughter' Uo not let them b'-hovo it They could put the power in the h inds of the man they trnste 1. He would make one lnoie observation in opposition to bomething that had fallen fiom Ins lion, fiiend the Chief Secretary, about the o[)iniou held m Engl.-ini at that moment. Itwas the only pointou whichhehad not agreed with him; and if he chose, he might answer him when he rose to reply. The hon, membsi said that he did not agree with the sentiment that prevailed in 'England winch dealt with this quest-ion of defending colonies as if it were a Commercial one, and he hoped that the great heart of Kn gland would iv the lone; ruu 1 eject that interested commercial policy. Tt was very well foi th" hon. membei to sly that, but what did he think they wtie saying 111 ICugland of the colonist--? They were saying — and he -\ery much regretted it— "But you 'cc they, hive a comin<i\la.i desire to ietai:i thc-e hoops, and tlvy find that the expenditure of £200,000 01 £300,000 a-year 111 the.r little towns very conve iient, and of coui,e do not like to have the*tiO'>ps lcmoved." TTe only wanted to point out that tl>n commeraul element cut both way-, and that.it was not wi->e to .be us>ng it with such jjlibnes-. as tho Kni;l sh people would be lining it with the same satisfaction ag.uust the colony. He did not krow that theie" had been any aigument used ngamst lomoving the troops uiorejjowcrful than this— that they would have 16 pay mo c tor their own forces In r< ga dto that, his hon. had made a mistake in ban ;ing tin-, forwaid until he had told them how he would defend tho country; bnt he (Mi. FitzGerald) had jin opinion that the c umtry could ba defended much bettsi- than by tho Bnti'jU tro>>p~, and tliat , they couUl not do it at a much cheaper vate, »nd very much more pfftCtually. Now he came to the remedies which his hon. friends in Auckland vioposed for ail the-e e\"ils. 'i hey propose Itw u 1 ernedies, first, separation, and next despotism — twolnstrate measure? — but they did not seem to peiceive th*t instead of mo%'iug to wipe </ut the resoluhons of - the Government, they proposed to mow an addition to them, and the logical deduction would be this. "Wo pray your Majesty to leinove the tioop* in order that our Ministers may be entiiely responsible and have the whole Government 'of the countij, and we further piay your Majesty that we may have no Ministry at all." (A laugh ) Tint? w»s precisely how they wt-uld stind Oive' their Ministry every responsibility, but for God's f-ake don't let them have a Mini^tiy. "Well, he ventured to say, that when Mr. Uardwell noticed these resolutions, his face would be 0, pictui c, and that he would say, "Well, that -is a strange country, indeed." (Laughter.) He would say, "We will do ,. everything on earth for them, we will do' everything we pau f or them, but how the deuce we can give them Ministerial .responsibility wi +liout1 iout Miniitei3 I do not know." Well, he could go on antil, morning, if ,thoy would hear with hun — (eiies-of- "Go jjh "}— 011 the question of separation, because it was a question winch was really inexhanstible ; but he would say veiy biiefly what he had to s>ay. " Gieat as the burthen as Aueklatid was to the Middle Island at piescnt, he did liut in the least grudge it, if the whole colony would throw itself into the wne boa,t ; but he gtudged it the less . because he could not conceal fiom himself that -It was -■in* a measure owing to the Middle Island that ■" this war was not stopped at its commencement, - and be could not ignore tint fact, Jie objected to separation, ' because lie thought, looking ;r at the history of all these colonies, that the tendency of >/this measure would be to lower and degrade it. 'But Jit was inevitable. This very native question placed "before them a3 it was, full of didieult and 'appalling danger, which they all shaied and all felt in the jfMiddle Island just as they did in the North, this very -j question because of its difficulty would laise and elevate whole chaiacter of the statesmen of this country. gWheu they were asked to cut up the colony ijito two they were asked to stuilt and dwfiif their feppsition r .*< .It ought to be a glory to them Unit they ;ibad a^uegtjjjm to deal with givon to ro other colony; |ii)d he Wptfßl tell them that that qurgi ion alone would Ipr^ducp^thl'greatest mei\ of the iSontliu n Sens. They |jyere|-a«ked to .extend their minds iv oulur to master «lmT'j|ilfictiity t ,. and -beyond the, ttiero views which 'tile lat,of other, colonists. They were, |Mked,4*i)d;|hey. aioiie, of all colonisls in -the raoific, coinpi ejien.i ye views K^d^»teß*uiftßiil)ij>T«ftSliryvti tbuy were asked at that

moment* toVabandon tbab vaiitago 'ground, atuii retire , from the 1 them; the career j of Statesmen — and to\be. "conteuV with the character* of vestrymen. ,(H^*i,Vhear.)' Ho must. , tall ithein the gieatness of the sphere of Government and the .magnitude of "the population upon which they ruled— thos», were tho instincts of a great people. .-,lso people ever* made itself small unless they had small minds that could not comprehend the importanuo of groat communities. J t might be said that tho two islands had two difteient institutions. He admitted it ; and the same might be said of the seven kingdoms of the Heptarchy until joined in one, So they would haves it the cuse in the colony until they grew out of Such distinctions — until' they separated tho«e interests that thoy had not in common. If they kt'pt together those inteiests which they had in common would grow and extend with the growth of time — as tho fiisb, and- the English, and the Scotch had grown together ; and the differences would gradually" disappear, lie would ask, what had they in difference' and the answer must be, Nothing but tho native question, which woidd only last a few yeais. 'With a continually iuui casing population, in a few years' time the different questions would all be solved in 'one great and common interest! of what would piovo to bo then a great countiy. Then the second panacea for the evils under which the Noithern Island was suffering was despotism ; but lie could not hopo to convince the lion, member l>y argument, but pel haps he might hopo, in the piesence of hon. membuis for Auckland, to allude to history to show what the}' really meant. Did tht'V mean to go back to those halcyon days of .Sir George Grey's former Government? and did tiny wish to see him an object of public e\ecration, and those times to letmii, wheu a Governor of New Zealand would be accused of arson — of burning Government' House down — because hedifFeicd with others on some political 'questions' AVeio they desnous of {,01111; back to the d.vjs when the Governor of New Zealand — the Governor of the Noith lsl.ind, n» lie would then bo cdhid — should be ma X 'he nuppet, .mil diiected by the whole community, winwore living either in the hope <>f p->y r seiviqes pas 1 , or to come? lie would like tQ.ku >w ifj.be him imiii her lecollected the Instmyw Now Zealiml in 'those days; and did ho think ihafc wlut happened "•hen Auckland was a viH-.'c world not happen Si<f>in when Auckland was bocum n a 1 uj'p community* Hid he think that a Governor could govern 'Vuukland for Vl' mouths under the old system? H- -.uu'lj rouh' nit imagine. By pi.psp >sst/m t / such a umu" !> nid oast the most bitter s>neei upon the citi/ftis o> •vuekland — to suppose after ten yeais of Constitutional ]»iviluges, thnt they would lecur to tint back-staiis influence --that stfite of newspaper Government — for it had previously been divided between newspapeis an<l Governor J Was it thought better tlut the biuUl waifaie which pievailed at that lime should bo lenewed ; and did he wish to see that re illustrated? The Governor might be occasionally -hissed at the tlioatie at the present day, it was true, but that wa', nothing to the state of bitter hostility Much existed in fotmer times. For his pait he believed ho could go round Auckland and get the inhabitants to vote against the hon. member's leaolulion ; the citizens would not stand such an insult for an 110111. He would ask them, supposing -they ,dul get back their old government, would the native race and the Europeans be one bit nearer one another, socially or politically, than they weie at the present ? They would then have their work to do over again to return to constitutional Goveinmeut; and having once got over the gate would ag.an have to leturn, and jump it with a tiled hoiso. iLaughtci.) There was no use in thinking of returning to-what was passed, they must look to the fntme. They could not get on without Government— that was impossible: and it was their duty to make the best of what they had. It might be very distasteful to Ins hon. fuend; he might keep the troops; but they might depend upon it, coinpariug the two situations, that of koep uig the troops and seeming the - £200,000, and K'ving up the tioSps and the £200,000, with a fiee Government, aid lie (Mr. F.) would back the fiee Goio'nineut would lia*e beaten the other hollow, (rl^oi.) lie had only got one or two mow words to say, and he was only afraid he w as "-earying the House— (no, no) — he alhufeit to the question as it bore upon the native policy. He very much legietted that his hon fiiend at the head of the Government did not at the same time that he indicated such a ar. at and impoitant chauge, come down and stale what ho intended to do. But that was no leasnn why th^y should hot vb'e foi him, for he (Mr. F) wis ceitain he was light. Still oilier hon. meuibeis might have a doubt in their minds. At the same tune he had no hesitation 111 saying th.s, that if that policy of war had been puumed tuwaids those nati\e<>, he did not see how thoy were, to remove the troops in -the c Aony. 'He wuTTid tins-re-moval of those troops meant a policy vciy different from that hitherto canied out. The policy of tlie last session, to which his hon. fiieud was no paity, and to which ho objected, had bioken down utterly and entiiely by its on a inhcent weight— they; might say thiough the fault of the Government, if they pleased, but it hid luokeu down fiom this reason, and they cou'd at best accuse the Govenioi of not confiscating Waikato lands ; but could they accuse the Governor, as in the piesent aspect of tho native mind, and as legmled the aspect of peace? He had Leen told ftom .i veiy good souice that if they had cairied Oi the wai for tlnee mouths longer the native quostion would have bi.cn settled. Why, they were told that m Colonel Bio \ ne's tune, if a sap had been .taken 120 yanta fu.ther, the war would have bee;i settled. (Lau^htei.) And now his hon. fiiends weru constiaiifel to tell them tfiatif the war had been cainud on two or tlnee months moie it would have been settl'-d (No ) He was glid to heat Ihem say.>no. 'I he native mmd was now rather moie hostile to their tnle, lather 111010 suipiCioui of their intentions, lather lcs inclined to come uudei theii law's rather moio convinced that th<.j r were not conquered th in wlien the troop-, ci ossed the Maungatawhiri — that is, thit the tlnee million, which was all gone— thalr that money had been spent, they had not piouucud one fiattion of difference ; but they had retiogi tided in the solution of that gleat native question — the amenability of natives to English law. He told the House two yeais ago tint th qupstion was a \oiy simple one. Ifc had been a question in tho fitst pl.tn between winning llie confi lenco of the natives, and on tho other hand extei initiating tliem. But had the" won their confidence, had thov advanced one single slip towards winning their confidence ? Not one jot. lie told the House, when it sj ike of the iliaud suheme, that theie could not be put any settleis on the laud if the cession of the natives had not been obtained. And to take bodies of ttoop<-*, and keep r.n army to protect them. (An Iron, member, ''Why?') B.'Civwe it didn't pay, because the sa'e of the potatoes winch would lie jaiscil upon Hie land did not pay for the tionps (Laugh lei.) He lcmemheied an old ft lend of ln^, a I'ugymin, living at Algieit, who went out shootim* with the Fiench offieeis. One d.iy when they asked him if ho should like to shoot woodcocks lie an-a 1 <_ ji! that he would very much ; and to enable MlO p.u ty to pi o^ecute theii game ten thousand men weie placed, lining the heights, whilst lie shot woodcocks jjut'thit did not pa\ — it was not a luciative speculation But had a satisfactory peace been made, on terms which the natucs could agiee to, they would not bioak it again. He hid told them last session that the scheme of imlitaiy settleis was puifectly idiotic, foi they could not make it pay. He had told them to fight the natives, and bi ing them to teims of peaco ; but they lnyl sacrificed millions of the money for their plan of military settlers ; and when they bad placed the setllei-. on their land, what was the result? They had sent to General Cameion to protect them. (■Ho, no.) The A uckland papeia lied then. Theie was his hon. fiiend the member foi R.uigitikci, who had passed through almo3t eveiy phase ot feeling with regard to the natives — sometimes being at the aphelion, and then at the peuhelion of native affection — aud at the piesent time he thought he was wsndeinig again into space. If tho House had got his (Mr. Fox's) view of the natives, there was not the slightest doubt the u.Uivw.ivlso had their view of bun. He would ask pei iniss->ion for one moment to illustrate what he was saying by a brilliant sketch such as his hon. fiiend who was remarkably clever in wiiting had given them of William Thompson. His hon. fiiend at that time, if he iniylit judge by the date, had not many memoiau'la to write, and had time, therefoie, to give l a poetical desciiption of William Thompson. It might appear that William Thompson — in one of those runangas which his hon. friend was so anxious to origin-it: —might have been speaking to a certain obimxioifs pet sou of the name of William Fox. (Mr. Fox: TePokeba.) It .might be conceived he made that address on the part of King Matutaere. It would 11111 thus: — " William Thompson sinceiely hopes that the desiie for peace evpiessed by Fox is siuceio. and that it ;nny lead to satisfactory results. He is obliged, however, to confess- that he Ins not much coniiileiif-e in Fox-s sincciitj'. Ho has for some years past watched that chief's caiecr veiy olosJly, and has auived at the conclusion that he ;s either , a double minded man 01 thab he has not the moral coinage to act up to hip convicliono, wlie"n they pie opposed to those 'of tho 1116Y0 w.trhko ami determined poition of'J his f)eopl\" The whole transaction was not one of livimeut. The sincerity and truth of the honouiab'c member (Mr. Fqx) was not to bo lelied <>n Well, what he (Mr. FilzGe.ald) would say was this, that all their difficulty of government ut tho present moment was ovi*

Identlytb liia'.mKHl J hpo«i some •gr^ab'&iisumlerstitiKl-l ing with the Maoris". . There, had Tsomo groat, wall risen up bdt\voQi1 l "fli«n. lie did not believe that'the Maoris wished to massacre them ; ho did not believe that they wishen. to bo enemies to them. They wished t > be friends ; but aomohow they could not act in harmony with each" other. The^ natives \voro not plotting fanatics oxcepb a few who, ho was all aid, were ueoominq so. They were anxbuvto live in peace with them, and for a period ,of twenty- j five yew 8, until the late disturbances, they had been" able to walk from end to end of the colony, maii, woman, and child, in pevace and security. "Wiliy, e-iuld not tliey do ao again? He believed something; was wanting' which should coino and explain otic race to another. It was nob, ho firmly believed, ill question of .hostility to Government ; it was not ai question which war would solve. If war would .solve it, lot them go to war, and light ; but he would lay it would not solve it. llie more they would fight, tho mare insoluble Uio difficulty would become They must go into some deeper instincts of human $ nature to find out what it was. To hold up to the; natives the light hand of peace, as tjie colonists piofossed to be the more powerful and superior r oo,\ liefoio they overcame that dogmatic piide by which they clung to their possessions— -the more earnestly because they knew they weio being beaten, and be-, cmuo they were the inferior laci I—some1 — some fiesh measures w ould have to be taken with the Maoi is. It' was not* work of policy to diive men to desperation f — (hear) — but he feaied they wmp doing that at pieseut They had thrashed them to that extjut, that if thrashing were of any use, they would see the) result. But had they obtained any results besides obtaiuiug land. Ho behoved that a policy such as that adopted last Ecsion, would, in the nature of things, tend to drive them to despeiationi - Theicfoie, he said emphatically that tho policy of the piesent Government in removing the-tioop* was taking the vciy iiist step towaids placing the whole c i->o in a bolter position ; and because he had every confidence in the lion, gentlemen in the piownt Munstiy, and believed that in the recess they would' solve the gieat question, which they mu'-t admit, had not boon solved, by the maintenance of agieat \ force m the colony, — for those leasons ho mo 4 leainestly m 1 conscientiously give Jib «uppoit tj 'tb.»T- Volutions. (Loud applause ) ' Fox, pii using, was, gu'etml with great apn' m c. He said he would nek tho House to loivc belm.d foi thepiesont Edmund Buike, and also tlit gentlemen who shot the woodcocks, foi the pnipose of taking m view what was the portion of the colony twelve months a«o. At that tune they saw tho king movement in lull forco, the iftitivi-s aimed to the teeth, and, on the 4;h of May the" natives commenced their woik by the assassinations at T.uanalu. On tho 13th July the troops were face to face with tho rebeK, at Ktfheloa, and ho would ask what chance was theie, down to the evacuation of Maungatautaii — Mas theie any pei iud timing' that tune whi'ii tlid two racw could be biougbt amicably together, as lefeucd to by the last > speaker? They weie foicod from tho 4th of, May into a' soiies of assaults fioin which thei'o was no breathing time, no .-iigu of submission made by the enemy, down, as he bid sud, to theii depaitme fioin Maungatautaii. B.it he believed had vigorous steps been taken — not by Uie piosecutiuii of the war, at tint tune, foi tinea niout'is louder, as" had been hinted at l>y one hon. membei — but by putting; the kuystouo into tho .uoh, by (•onfiscaliou — pu.icc would have been le-estabhshod in the colom long be-« foiuths piesent tune, extvpt what tufting dist-u'innceb might have been occasioned by a campaign in T.uanaki and Wangaiiiu; then the tioops would lnvd been sent 'home with their w oik done. {Heav,-heni.) It might bs asked why those things had not been done , and he only > wished that occasion was one on which he could have taken tho penso Of the House in reference to tho conflict foi cod upon . tho late Ministry by his Excellency.' lie wKhed ho could ha\e had an oppoitumly— nfttr the documents lecentfy laid upon the tnble of tho House, — .and also bis colleagues could h ive been affoided an oppmtunity of explaining what lo&k jM.acoiii those intervals which apptuied in the documents, and giving an account of the v.uious stages of all tho cit^ eunutauces, Whatever might have been sxul on Jihs Subject by one oi two Qmtotiu gentlemen. Heregietted that the citcuui o tauces of the pioaent Mi- ! nistry and their lelatio'ii with his Excel'ency were such as to pieulude, at all events, the late Mim->liy fioin taking any step 3 toe\plnu then position. Ihey weie content to justify themselves upon the memoranda upon the tables of the Iloine ; and they woie content to let them lest theie ; being content also v.ith tl>c veidict which might be letmued after tl'e documents had been c.uefully lead. If tliey did not meet With the appiobation of people little acquainted with the -plinriplfcS •\\hfeh-' lmd- guided then '~c6«i<lrf«,t, * tl'Vy , would, at least it was hoped, set the Miuistiy light with tha Jiiiti&h Parliament, by placing Vnattei^. fan 1> befoie them. When they had livid themselves down in the death stiuggle. with /rfis Excnlleiiov, they Lid been encouiaged with the feeling that they wme doing! then duty to the House and to the countiy, andtl >v', ti u»ted to ha\e tha satisfaction of a good consc.eneo in having cm cited faithfully their duties to tnu countij. (Vp,>)au*e.) And that he was saie wouM be the veidiet letmued in tlien fa\our. He nguvjd with the hon membci who had just spoken, tli it thi !■"■" hail been a great failure, an almost total faihue in their attempt to biiug to a successful is->ne the policy with the execution of \>bieh j,they had been en ti listed last session ; and the reason, as he had S ild, wns — that th(.y weie pievciited, by me,ans over wh'ch they had n.> control, fiom putting that finishing touch to tho woil,. Hon. lJember^ would recollect that the whole bnsK, — the whule found ition of the couise they" had to .*t.t upon — was the con fi -cation of native lands; and wh'"h would have in itself two oi'jec'.s ; first, to inflic a warning upon the natives that they might have a picof of the ea- uestness ot Government in the matter, mid secondly, to ieeo f i[) tho cost of tho enounouj. vxi whiehhad bc'cn lecklessly thrust upon them.' He must, theiefoie, i.ay that it was hi-> belief, wh-n Maungatiiutari was evacuate J, that if the Goveu ji* had acceded to the wish of the Ministry, nnd had declatod tho whole of that teintoiy to be confisc ited, only testoiing to the jdvtivts a small poition, in ibinuch as l^e had piomi&ed to do accouling to his own policy .announced sik months befoie, — (He. i, dieai)— if, as he I nil said, his Excellency had done that, he believed hi& Excellency would have stiuck a blow which would have gone like an electiic shock tlnough tho emiie lebul distiicts But when th'it mifoitunate tiesp'ioh fiom Mi. Caidwell reached tiie colony — cook'-d and piomptvd he had up doubt what ever by some pei on in the colony, — when liimours in consfcquenco \' e'r.j life all Ihioiigh Maoridom that Uie Queen had taja'iiuptheii e.uise — that the Queen had said ihat they muit ii"C lo«e th'ii Innil, and tlieOovernoi lml said they weie not to lose thoii luul— then all the colonists bupinio nw.ue of the unfortunate lesult. 1 Jig Minns iigain took liCii f , buckled on their aunoii, ami set to woik to make iiew pa-, to {,'iow fiesh cio,v3 and potatoes -and they hoveicd lound the troops is fush as evei. (lfi,\i, hoai.) lie would not at tl. .t tune mvita. the opinion of the [louse as to the jn i> puuty of tho mwnoi.anda which had been alluded*"! , nnr of the decency of the tone in winches Excellency and his late Mimstcis couched them— but he would take that ocoinion — as the sulgect had been touched upon by the hon member who had la«t spoken - to call the attention of the House to the fact that fiom the commencement there \v«s scaicely a singlo memoiandiim wiitten by Miniati'tw 'which was not from *elf-defence. It had been ti i' piactico of His Excellency to be continually auitignin^ them and calling,nito question their chaiacter3 as i men of judgment, and even honesty, They had been perpetually forced therefoie to take up the pen in self defence to lefute Uie charges which he made against them. That was an reality the great history of those memoianda. Another cause might be stated, that' after the am val of Mr. Caidwell's despatch the late Miuistry piessed foi ward and attempted to induce his Excellency by one means or another' to place at their disposal tho conqueiedi lands in »the Waikato, which would enable Hhc Ministry to cany out the policy of the House. 'I Lev had been asked why they did not lesign when fir»t there was a difference between Jfis Excellency and 'themselves. He must say he rdid not hold that opinion that .whenever thei* was a seiious differenco, between the Governor and his Ministers the Mimstiy should resign! Had they acted in that manner they would have been conducting themselves like a paity of Quixotic schoolboys. Their object on thocontraiy had been, by any means of cession to Jus Excellence's will, to induce him to cany out that great policy of the count-jy. (Hear, -hear.) And honomable members would fiuJ in the memoranda how a laiger confiscation was fust mentioned, then a smaller ce->«ion, ' ami at last they actually bound themselves down to an amount of land which would not have half satisfied the claims. (Hcai, hear., Having stated that, he would say— had they, in tlie matter of responsibility— for he wished to confine himself as closely as possible to tlnifc question— dul tho late Government adhere or not to that coiiis,',| which they ought to have followed » Did they striinl^ up for the piinciple of responsible Government as far us givun by the despatch of the Duke of Newcastle ' To his (Mr. 'F/&), mind slmobt entire tespon-ibilily-had been gianted; but when Mr. Card well, in his despatch, tuvncd round and said ha ■was not going to discuss that quest on r, jvilh tho Government as to the term — Rrspoiisihlt.'^ Minibtiy, 1)0 might 'say they did nob ask MfgUy:

isto}argWthat pointful, lh%. simply asked 1 him. IE be; jjweWintehilihg to > affirm, that •which' the Dulte of i Kewcastio haM given to fcho Ministry. 'It was too •late, for Mr. Curd well to come forward at the, present tune and wipo out the DukooE Newcastle's clespatch, giving snob, lespouslhility. A «olemu compact, as it ,wore,<had been onfcoiodiuto oa that do-patch, and it had never boon uAtoivd. Flo would c6nfoss tlub t wljeu ho read Mr. Card well's despatch of September 26^'ho Avas voiy much sbiutlud, find ib'give him the key at once lo tho tono of tlio previous despatches which, ho had' ttddiossod to Sir George Grey since April ami May. He imi3l tell them a shudder ran thtough him when lift read the despatch -not on account of any paiticular doctiine iv lb, not on account of seeing that which the good faibli 6f the Imperial Goyernineub might have loi.Miun to oxpeeb ; but ho was, j like a man in a mola-dramal'io novol which ho had read, who had a house haunted by a gh<>4, and jusL when he considered the <ghof-t Wats laid, ho found it appeaiiug olsowhoie. [Mr. I'lTzG-BtfAXD-inquiied if it was tho ghoit \ifi a native,! Tho hoi' j gentleman ought to know what '"ghost wnaj meant the ghost ,o£ Mr. Mother Coimtiy Pfc -('Mi\ Fitzgerald} -knew rlial- sinoo fie | days if Mr. Chailes Bullei and Mi. Gibf,pn Wake- j licld — who had laid that ghost some sittcon jcai^ I ago — ho could nob lind that it had beoirt'insed again ; j bub in tlio despatch they fonnd Mi. Mothor Country had got his hand in tho aff.iii jof tlio colony, and from I that moment real ic3ponsibility <uul coutrol ovor | their own affaiis wjis piaotically tilcen fiom them Tho question was not whether Ms. Card well or the Duko of Newcistle or Loul Grey miglit have wntten these despatches, but it was whother that despatch should be put in 'motion by a Governor who might stand in relation to the colony in the minority of one. It could not lie" d-iucd tho-e was ieal opposition tlneateuing tho colony upon that despatch He admitted that the colony had ai lived ab that s>tage of affairs when it was impossible foi them lo claim the full exetcise a* its rights, as confened by the Duke of NVwoiitlc; avid i^iucfoio ho was pi spared to vote fur the 'jcsoJi'f'nn ; but he ■was not v»tinj without piolivil, believing, as he did, that it -\\ .is a rlchbeuite and grave infiacbiuii of iho lelabioys in which they stood with fho Governments, !!•» therefore trusted the Mm.lM.ly would advise his I'Xeel'ency Lo state lo tho Homo Govcinmontlha't Urn proceeding was lookedupon in that light Ivy 'the House- tt might lio attempted to l>e said in the dolule that tho late Mum tiy had bought to encioach upon the piovmce of fie Impeiul Goveinmcub, bub they had never adopted such a coiusp as that. Hie fton. member foi Elk*, ineio had, however, 6ndc.ivoiucd on soveial occisio'is to fix it upon tlictil YVnteis in the public prints, and his Kxcelloncy, hkowUo had attempted lo show that they had Piide.iyouied to inteifere V I'-h tho management of her Mvjesly's troops. (Mr. FirzocriAiiD : "No, no.') The words made use- of by the hon. gentleman hud" certainly amounted lo that, but it was no ilonbt a leim of colonial bounce. He must say 3 they had never inteiferod with the troips or any Tmpeual rights'. 'J'ho pti-oneis were handed ovei to the Ministty by hh J^xcelloncy, and the Mimstiy took them Atbei'waidiliM Excellency changed his lniud, and took the-n nudct'hU charge, Imh subsequently letuintrl them to tlie Ministry But whilst" the piisonoiS weie under the ch.it gc of tlie Go\ eminent they would not peunit it to be s.iid they vero.uudei rmpeiialcontiol,".ind peinut of linpeii.ilGovcinmenfcoilici.ils docton of ship', to go smelhftg about as to the accommodation, and all th.it sotb of thni';. (Laughtei.) When hi& J'^ccllcncy wi'-hc I to have the pifcouer* letutnel to him the Miuistiy weic- peifectly willing, ami told Inn ho coulu oako them if he would pay £150 000, which they kid cost, but he could not agice to that, and the litllo bill fnglitiiiad him. The pnspneis weie CDuseqiunt'y lestoied to the charge of the colony. It was ceildin the piisoneis could not be at one and tlio same iniKiiu the cofonial chaige and under the Impeiial likeniac, although^is Excellency might have a nghc to have a voice in saying how the piiioncri should bo dealt withj The colony had pii.l Hip co^t of Iheu maintenance, and so long as the colonial of.V cots !i ul charge of th" pi\so*u the pnso'ieis weie a colu-iul ph.uge The fact of tho Mi'iistiy assuming the; cb n^'- of the piisoncis, then leaguing, and .tgam .as-, stuniuj; it, blio«cl that they we.c .ill most obedient st!i*\ iitil^ (ifcir, ht<->r.) And certainly they were not foi cm, theiDS'lves into any factious opposition a^an'.. his Is\cellenc3 r , The hon. meinbei- for DunCiliii (Mi. Voge l ) ha*d taken uinbiage, and made some \cry 'eveic lemavks'at tho manner in which hd (Mr. V ) had affected to make a cettnin semi roy.d progress through the countiy N N — I to i«&uo pardons, and 1 eceivo' submissions of-iebel natives. Ho must <=ay ! heieilly was not aw.ire he was doing anything of [' the icffc, Jic iliat he hiici douif any'duiit, wiiiuii couui have been looked upon in th.it light, or tint could not have been done by ollitfis —for 'instance, by Mi. J3utler, who being 1 evident tlieic could have leeeivcd the subnii&sion of rebcrUnat^ es. Bub what, 111 h.b o])"uuon, stuck- in the hon gentleman's gi//:aid was that he (Mr. F ) called tne chief \\ J \ T.iko a genthmau when tcudeiing *lu^ * submi-sion All lio coil.l piomi-c would be tint if evei ho li.yd the satisfaction of leceiving hon. membei'd submission, he vvould not c ill him .1 gentleman, and peihaps, tliat might satisfy him l*lj«.ughtti ) Then the hon. member for Kllesineic, whose cheeks weie suffused witlibhwhesJj-so ehanilteintic of hii conhtiymtn — had alsn spoken on that henl; ivnd the hon tneiiibcr for Wallace, who was oblivious of Matutaeie's willing to the Goveinoi, also ie cclioed the charge. Tie must conEeSS thvt the hon. member for Ellesmoiu had put him in cliancoiy by leading the lettei fiom Wilhnm Thompson 111 tho manner hehaddoue; but lio might mention" Hint ho .hid & soit of klea that Win Thompson was about to pay the Jon, member a~vi«it at Cantprbuiv; and theie was likewise a rtimour that 'two messengeis had been despatched up tlio Thames, in a little boat called the 'Mulgo;' one of the mes SPUgeis being sent by the Governor to 1 Hju°sbThompson to co. no in and m iko a cess>iou,of lanil , and the olliei was n, mes«engei fiom the hon. member aiking ' Thompso.i lo pay him a \i-it, and to have dinnei with him at Cmteibmy. He* did not know that those rumouis were ti ue— but the m.iv in the slieet hid told him. lie tiustud, however, if the dinner should come off, that the hon. gentleman would hft\e aiepoitei thcie h and they would then knowwhat^ happened at that lunanga. As the'^noclaniation h.Ki been alluded to, he might state that lrcwas couvmcod none of the teims offeted "would induce the rebel Maoris to Come 111 and make a small cession of land even to the satisfaction of theJl-roveinor and Genet al Camoion. Such a ptoceediug could not 'be founded on any lasting, or permanent basii, as they ofFeied no intae for it, and the contmry had been "-Jiown as his Excellency had put it in the document lelative ti> Mim^ter^ offering to go to Ngarnawalna, ami when lik declined to go. lie (Mr. F.) did not think a inoie 'fil.il picclainatfin conlcfhitv'e been issued than the one l.i-Nfc pas 1 ed uudei his Excellency's ban J J IV was dcsjious ot evpicssing hi' 3 opinion upon the 'confiscation policy , he must statti that he ctime tv liis conviction , upon- the subject very slowly — being, ifiisb iv doubt ' whether it might not have the effect, as the hon. mover had contended, of driving the Maoiis to despeiation if they took from them a large portion of their teuiboiy. But the exf periance of many months had led him to the conclu mou that the Ilotise w is' light in laying down tho dootiineof confiscation; and he was sine they would never impiess them that the Tmpeiial Government and that the Colonial Government meant anything teal uiJess they confiscated largely.,, It was not by a small I confiscation aiound Lake WaiKeri or Ngaiuawahia— ! by any little ccs3ion of lavd — that they would cany to their minds the conviction that U.e Government was in eame3t (Hear, hear.) For his paib ho saw no haidshi] iv oon'isoating a very largo territory, what^ ever otlur hou. ineinbeis 'might think on the subjecC The decision of that House, and the decision of tho [inpetial Government, and tho decision of his "Ex-* celleiicy, enunciated that the war was foiced upon the colonists by tho j/atives, and that it became absolutely a war of- self-defence ; that it was a wicked and 1111 aggicssive war on tlie part of tfie' natives, and 111 no way provoked. If thn,t wcit the caste, ho might ask, was theie anything contiaiy to tho xJiiuciples of inli^bteiied humanity, that the colony should take fiom them hiich a large poition of theii lands as would enable them to save^ tlie colony from fimncial bank-, 1 uptcy by finding the me,ans out of the sale of such | lands! „ Was theie 'anything unjust, unrighteous,! unchiistiiin in that ;* or siiij'tliuiy against the picconceived notions of the Maoil nco ? If the tubes iji lebelhon owned ten million aeiosof land, how would it do then on iuquiiy if the Government took one-half of that, ami one-half would not bo anything more that be leqniicd 1 He might ask of what use wan the land to the natives. They would not allow "a road to bo made tin oiujh it. They would riot allow a steamei ■$<> pass on the 1 iveis, nor would they cultivate the land or ullow othois. Those millions of acies were lying ban en aud uselesH ; aud why shouklTthcj not be tnken for the purpo:e of repaying to the colony the euoi inous cost wiiich Ihoaggiession of thoMaoiis had entailed? lie would teli the ple&ent Miuistiy that if they failed to urgo upon his ijixeellenoy — lo insist upon the confiscation— anil by that means they would not only be able to cle.u off the debt lo (ho colojiy, but find their way" out of j nil fintincml difncullfas../ That was the policy of hus 1 ; ' sOision ; it hail beSu agreed to last session, and the question remained— was .it to be catiied out or not f Weie tli«iy to go on, withjpiovincial tieasuiitia empty, — llieir ciedit , gone— because they ooulil nob biing ithe Go\eiiior to t|iitik it uecosssvry to oifrry out. that

which he' said, he would carry '•out — and would in fact go fat .further than, tho Ministry, in carrying out ? Sir Goorgo'Grey and that House 'on a lensouable cxlubition'oE thai policy would bo moie potent than Exeter lUall, and alfthose persons viewing the question from .1 distance by an impel feet light, and^floundeiingiuto those eirors whioh would absolutely mw Uiq colony, lie might sny again that ho maintained ihat if ihoGovornraent had confiscated the lands on llaungaUulaii, the credit of the colony would have been good at the present time' It would not then !.avo luattcrod to tbe colony, if their policy hud been *poken against, if shmdeis had been huiled against i horn in the Btihili Pailiainenl and in tho public pi ess. fc would liavo m itteied not at all if all that had Happened; they then would have had tho smews i.ot of win, but of peace. Than they would not hive hid to go up tho Th'irai 3 in a little boat, to nsk tho M .ons to give liltlo slie3S of 1-iud, but h'svo hcr-n in iv piiiition to c.iiry out the policy wheievei uepe«iiiy. *><d not tiiu English c.ury otit Uwt policy in O'iina, «nd had ibhueil" them to pay millions ot ironey row aids tho cirtt oC the war raised on (l-o op.uin question' The J gioat ptsses«onq of the Mhoih only heived to keopf lh- 111 in a state of barbaiimu « .uiil ii.illiing,would tend .noie MS their elevation Ih.in theii becoming posiesKu- «,£ binall tenements with small patdu s of lantl, winch they could satisfactorily cultivate. Theiefoie, lie contended tlieio wis nothing wiong in tilling poy Hesinn of a l.uge slice of Hud, uhich the Quotn\ loi cos had won for tho colony, and it woul.l l>e i>' moinbsied tint bw liKcellency h id' said tlie t jNt.to'is weie piepaied to make a iC-.'-lou of bind bi iwven tin. r.vcis. Jle believed it also appemd in one of Mi. Cud well's depatchei, tliat tin) JYlaoni, weie piepaied to cede the whole of tho land belWes-i the two iivest) ; but it \\.n probable b'a Ekcullcik / would F.vll into ibe same mistake theie.th.il bo did at Tauwuigi. When his Excellency and Mi Whitaku and himself (Mi. Fox) went down to Taui.anga, they "omul tho Muoiis tiuly • beaten — tiuly dis- . onihted. His Excellency wished (hit' the 'datives >h > u ld Mincndei sm.ill poitions of Laid only, but the ,"?>[ 1011s would sunoudei it all, and leave it to the iovctuiM to 1 etui 11 them -vhat poition he chose. Llis (Excellency accordingly accepted about 5o,i"!O acitH, and purchased, .it tbe l.ite of 2s ar 1 a-ie, about 150,000)ncies mote. But no* s^onei had lie (An. ,F ) «oT back to his office in Auckland th.vi ne foi'ml his, liable coveied with claims by othei natiw a.ul which even cams iYi so thick that the floor wm ho iped up with -Ihfcin. Tho claims wuio' made not j only fcoin the Ng.'itei.ingi tiibe, but llnoughout the countiy. He lometnbeied one of I the claimants, who livod on iho Thames h.ul abated that if tbu Queen had chimed the land . will*her Governiiient be would have said nothing, but j us the l.md was to be paid foi they were entitled tor their shaies In mentioning thtse Claimants it had> lecallod to hii mind the petition pi.esonted a few tUiysj „go by a member, fiom a native woman, who put in a' cl.vnn ior compeipatimi owing to the sale of land at Xfaiuiuvahi.t. He believed Clio cl'uin in this instance v.ts foirided upon the f.vct that tho woman's cousin wns « elated to Point in, 1 and I*ot'iUu wis bulled at N'nauiawalu.v, ami so put in ackumon account ot the bones of her .mcpstoi. Ife would j tiieutoip IpII "the Mimstiy tb.it if they ayieod [ to t.ike the land,bj cession tlie/ 1 would have no pnd of I difTeiences about "it; foi it «.is a mo-.t leniaik.tble. I thing thattbef 1 icudly native-, po^vcascd all tbe land, and' I the Tebel natives had g»)t no .11 ins (hiughtei}; so tint ' when any was to bo «old orci d«-d the tu.-udlies had sole I co.itiol over it (laugbtei); ainl«would put in a claim j t.i land .ibout to be taken. If 1 c h,i« m!y looked at it, the .imjimt of claims \shich bad come in for thu I Uppei \V.iiliito w is souiotbing feirtil ; and they had como Ciom natives , living at Cook's Str.aU and elsewhere. * 'Iho cKuiiuxiits had gnen tvjry boundaiy, creek, stream ; and t>f course claimed all th.it lind Thcu/oie be o.'iid, il they went in on the piiuu|ilo of cession* in tho voted lights in the' lio^es *of anc-slois, clawi3 would come in fionr cveiy f iu.ll let . The lion, member uppesite (Mr (1. Giohain) kne\,' lii.it ho w.is coiicctly sppakiug iv -biB m.ittei, as Jl3 ii<<l bail 1 i, r iL.it deal to do in tho pin chase of native l.mds — and how often he had had to extinguish with a ten lmund 'jotc the bones of an anceslei. ilo had anullicr piint to allude to — as the fact wa-> stilted by tbe lion moiiiboi foi Dunedin —that ths 10,000 tioops h A been kept 111 tbe colony toi tbe benefit of the piovince of Auckland, Iheie w.is no doubt a veiy laiye luiniboi of the tioops had been ke ( >t in the Auckland pio vince coucjueiing the land«, J 1 but it must 'be remcmboied also that a very l.irgc pait of their enemies, peihap', four fitths, lia,d been pleased to occupy this piovince likewise, and, if they musbpii!^ down the vai, they must lf.u'e {.he troops wheie the J enemy was They had had to go to Alaunijat'iwhiii fto""me t i!t 't*wm — JJ" rv^ug.uiri, hfu'iu-r i^i- aiiil- tlio WaiUato, and «>o the lesult w.is that the gieat bulk lof Iho tioops remained in the "Waik.ito With this { fnrlhei jiutifieai on ho might icm irk that he had I himself felt gicat anxiety w.th lefeicucc to the lecoininciiGPineiitof the L'.uaaaki t.impa, qn — an incut able campaign as he convideiod, and which must I before long be p octecled *\Mtli. But the point which weighed most wlh him 111 a'jieeing with ivs ! liNCcllency to keep the icbcllimi in the WaiL.ito, was j- th.it the neck of it might be biokcn theic It w,i« I o! mi ibc going to Wi Tako an\ otbei Southern j icbels it they could nob beat tlso ; and • thcic was no clioice. They had to fight the battle I wheie it was to be tougTifc. The moment the enemy i e>.acnatcd Maungi.Uutan ' the l.»te j\Linistiy h.i.l } .idvisod lim E\-colXeucy to }»ioceud wibh the suppies sioi, of the lehelhon at Tai'iiykt. but .at that tune milifcaiy instructions pi evented that lie wished, how on or, to state that tbe late Mimstiy ; bad ncvei met w ; th the' slightest oppciiiti'iu firm j (jenenl Sir T). Cmeion, and ha 1 they mob witft the I same absence ot opposition in ano^hei qiuvter as ocoiured with him, the lato Jlnnslry ViOiild have stood bofoio^tho House 111 a \ciy different position than it did at that time, lie (\h. F.) would "tobe 1 foi the amended lesolutions, a 4 he had tln> <41e.att.st 1 losuoto kefp tbe pieseut Ministry in office. . !!<• I 'would 110 L mpc.ab the many handsome things winch "had been said about UlO lion, gentleman at tbu bead of ibe Ministry and his col!c.ii;nc? ; b.ifc conben't, I 'iiniself by giymg his suppoijb to the r<sotutio'is. (ippl.iuse ) . ■ yP^Mi, Giahani's amendment v. »^ thai ill' idcd upon 1 with the following le-nlt .— Alls, IS _ Xoi-s S"> liullax Atlnuson Luleton I til colonso j ~ii .union Gillies . Uiomo ISiih.icn, fti.oigo lti.wm * % fiiaiiain, B0l)eit C'o\ Ilaultam ' Donutt lleiideiaon J'vcsj , M ison ]>-i vtlierstone Muiuo J'll/Ooialil O'Neill lutzhoiboit O'ltoiko lev I(.«ss,sH 11 an Ison Tiylm, C'hniles .follio '\ujel ■M.inloll ■ I Williniiison, Oamos miles I "* "\mlUiih-oii, John Oimoii'l "Wood P.itri'ion • XicynuliU ilMKtel Kiclniulson liiclimond, A Itichmond, J Rtnirord 'J' ij lor ■ Thomson Walker Waul W.iMic ' Veld ■> Wells , Wilson, C B. Wilkin. Tho amendment was consequently negatived. Staitokd did not wish ta detain tho Ilouse ; and regi cited that an .vccidental ab^pnee jusb befoie the lepent division, when the wliole (jucstion was under consideiation.had pt even ted him tiimi making afew lonuuks, which wcio due equo-lly to.tho lion, gentleman at the head of the Government; andto the importance of tho question now under consideration ; for he- could not notice, without icgiet, that a disposition had crept into the House, dining lecent sessions, to allow tho most important questions to be decided withont discussion. I his n.ose fiom ciicumstaucos beyond the contiol of independent ui'embeis, who often were placed iv a position which pi even ted them fiom speaking With lctciencc to some romaiks of the hou. meinboV for Utnedm ('Mr. Vogel), it -vyas due to the hou. gentleman .at the head of the Goyeiumenl to defend him fiom thouhnige that he had behaved in a juibijla limous minucr<iu allowing the resolutions of the Goveii.ui6Ut to ooine before tho Ilouse in an -amended shajio. Ho (-Mr. S.) would not shrink from any io*pon*il>ihty ■whinh might attach to himself and li^.iny otlsci hoiiQiii.ibJu mombeis for inducing the G>\ eminent lo 111 n.ify their resolutions, and 111 CiiUGiiling io do so llio Government had taken noit her an lutuoilhy nor an unusual ]>osition. Had tbej' not yielded to the stiong lepresentitioiid hnado to tlitiji on this subject they would haye i done glaiingly avioii^. 'J'lioy hid been but a few hours 111 office, "n hen they had»». been compelled to deal with tho mo-t important questions which ha I ever beon cofisiclered by the Legiilatuie. A large number of" mombeis could not support the resolutions as originally drafted, but weic, at the 'same time, most aiuiious that the Ministry .should ieb«uu office, in Older' thai tho Government might be carried on, and it was' only light aud pioper that th'o Governmentv glioiild defer souiovfliat to the uigoufc request of their

numerous 'siippdrfcers, that the, retolnnbns^snoiiKD bej/ submitted iv ashape nrwlnoh. tHtyj'could oonscien-" ■> Miuusly vote for them. (Heitr^hwr.) He was quite, content to accept the resolution's »8 now proposed-, although they by*no means yrehi to the root of the whole (iue3tion, or were" of a character which niiglifc - have been expected in a representation _ from the [Colonial Jfarliament to the Imperial 'Government subjects involving sucK'large principles ; fo*", aB. the hou. member for Ellesmere bad stated, they" 1 were indeed most vital subjects which the Colonial, Legisliituie was now asked to consider.. Itwasasked* to consider nothing less tban the questions -of the, relation between Ihe colony and the Imperial, Go- " vcrnmenb, and those between the Governor and his Ministers ; and, together jvith these, largely mixed up with the present position of the colony,' the question of the removal of Majesty's troops. Any one of tho questions deceived the giavest attention * of tho House,* and his hon. fiienda .would pardon him if bo said that neither the rtsolutions as origiiiully drafted nor those now proposed were, having i eg;u d to tho character of the quritioinand the espgcial encumstances 'connected" with *'* them, that kind <if Stitto paper winch should be addressed from the colony of New Zealand to the Imperial Govern? nient^ o£ England. ,He hoped the House would chouse him if he made a few personal allusions to himself. Ife did 'So only in consequence of the many personal allusions, both iv and out of the llou.se, in reference to the position which he took at tho ''ommencement of the session to which the lion, gentleman at the head of 'the Government had uferied in most complimentary terms, while expressing legiet that he could! not have the assistance of himself (Mr. Stafford) in forming a, Ministry, His • hou. f>icnd had behaved most handsomely to him. He had informed him that any position which he might wish in the new Ministiy was open to him (Mr. Staffoid), with power of selecting their^ cotleagues. He knewiiis hou. friend would believe" him when he stated that if he had been desirous of wxKmg office, or'if he had conscientiously believed that it would have been for the public interests that he should do so, u'otbing could possibly have been I'lea'auter tKan to have been in office with the hon. gentleman. (Heat, hi»ar ) But it was impossible foi him to have done so,"as theie was between them a, fundamental diffeience of opinion on one important - question — of great importance at the present time, and also some diffeiences on other, possibly secondaiy, but .still lrnpoitant questions. An hou. member had .termed his opinigu^a mere crotchet, but he-' 3 thought such a teun was scarcely applicable to what was the lesult of some" experience and mature couv«o£ioiis. It was, in his mind, a fixed conviction that giave difficulties, if not indeed disaster, wouHl result if, in the present critical position of this part of the Nerth- Island, i_fc w»ae sought to give, immediate effect to tLe Canterbury progi ammo and the'native policy weie attempted to be administered from a distance. r (Hear, lip.v.) He knew his hon. friend conscientiously thoight it could with safety be so administered, and i b it Tt he did not think so lie would not for a moment piopo^e it ; but he (Mr. Stafford) claimed for himself to tliiuk as conscientiously thst it was lmposaible, anil -o thinking he could not consent to make linnk<'[t responsible for what evil might en<>ue. (Hear, -lieai-r) One difficulty was already apparent from making the immediate removal of the seat of Government a Ministeiial question, — that out of ihe- whole number of members of the I < gislatiue present this session, one-third had '.ecu ulteily excluded f torn taking part in the admimsttation of the* very public affairs which most directly concerned them, aud as to which they possessed special information and experience. (Hea*, hear ) The very persons who knew the state of aff.ius of urgent impoitahce both north and south of the city of Auckland wei.e just the men who were, by tinft piogramme, effectually debarred fiom consuleiiug how to provide for the public safety. He could n)t become a party to the disaster which would (jiobably lesfilt fiom this c&mse. (Mr. PitzGeuald: "Oh, oh") The hon. member for Ellesmoie might say " Oh, oh." He lived secure in the Middle Island, and the disaster which was likely to happen would fall on the homes and families of those who lived in the neighbourhood of Auckland. "But whatever that hou. gentleman may think orsayp he (Mr. Staffoid) had hig own convictions on the subject, and he warned his.hon. fiiends that one of two things would happen— either a further knowilcdgG of the state of affairs would conviuce them that (Government could not justifiably be removed at the '.picscnt tune, and they would disappoint that nu'meiical majority which had determined that ths imjjnediate removal should be part of the Ministerial {progrrammo,_or if they; did^hjistilvand YJuithojit^QjT-.-. "sideratioiijlemove, they cause to*"Tilie last yeais of their lives to* regret that removal. With lefercnco to the question under consideration, no one, had spoken more clearly and lelevautly, than the hon. member for the 'Gity of AucklaniLEast, Mr.-Knssprh-who had distinctly pointed to what it was pos^ib'e and what it was impossible for tho i 'umntiy ro do. It was desirable that hon. gentlemen should cleaily recognise what was practicable, and what it was improper to promise that New Zealand would do, The hon. member for Ellesmere had lef prrcd to tho difference iv position of a dependency and an independent State, with v respect to the | question of Ministerial responsibility; there was a" shll qieatev difference as tQ_the "poweis of a Sc.}te and of a colony. The colony has, m fact, been called upon to make an ineffectual stiueg'e, wit V. its hauds tied, a'nd its eyes blinded. He p'lfvcily agveed with the hon. member for 4ho Cifc- ..f Auckland East (Mr. Russell), that the Middle [ 1 .'id should not Le called upon to pay any more, { in 1 would go further and say that the Noith Island iii-o should not be called upon to pay any more. The J.a;p(jii.il authoi ities had prevented the policy ef last session fiom being c.nuied luto effect. That policy was just and wise, r»nd vould have been completely such ssf ul if it had been faithfully adheied to by all \\ ho «ci c parties to it, and especially by him who ebi.nod last, >ear to have originated it. (Mr. I<V zCiEP.ALu "No, no") It would be seen by Sir Uevi-re Uicv's despatch of August, 1563, that his Excellency de^enled the policy as similar to his policy in British Kaffi aiia, than which he could devise no othei plan. These were his woida — ' ' 1 oi\u - devise no other plan to meet the oooasiou. 1 ' Mr. FitzItEKALD j The question of confiscation was one of degieo. Mr. SsArpoßD ! Then, not a question of kind. Let it be one of degree. It was very possible that the hon. member and: himself might agree as to wheie a fioutier of confiscated land should be"drawii. He had heai d with some surprise'the hon. gentleman at the heacl of this Government s.ty thnt he would give the same advice under tlie/esolutaons now proposed as nuuler those fiist diafted". But if he did so, the Governor was only bound, in so far as Mr. Weld's tneinoiandiun was a biv-is, feu carrj into effeefwhat tlio Legislature concuned in. That was, so far as he, 'knew lfis Excellency's position; and whatever advice his hon. fiieml might tender to} him, tl{e Govemoi ltright tefer to his own memorandum and say that lie* was only bound to acb up to the letter of what the Legislature might concur in. With respect to the subject refeired to by the lion, member ior Parnell, there was a great diffeience between ten battalions aud no tiooj s at a.U, JJe enthely agieed with thos&Ajn.e'mbeiß who hel^ that tho question of jiea.oe and war was one as to which the Impeiial Government should exercise a; ' large voice, as dealing with the Eoyal prerogative ; and he would assure tho hon. member for Ellesmere that the Royal prerogative was as much affected if war were cairied on with a. colonial aymy as y,i\h, her Majesty's regular troops. (He&y, hejyr ) It waa but -\ciy lately that the Imperiil Govej nment would* admit the colonies to raise their own aimie3; nnd^ with respect to the, neighboiipng colony of Victoiia, * it had not to this day sanctioned its having a flget of us own, or allowed that fjeet to ca.H'y a peniyvnt. He did not believe that Mmistoiial responsibility dejieiidfd upon whe her they fought with their own tioops or \or Majesty's troo,ps. lv refeiencc to the question of the absence of Auckland memheis in the present Ministiy, aud. which had been frequently alluded to, he might say that he had some experience, in tho formation of Ministries, and he was not a.\va.yo until now that, since Vegpausiblq Government was iutioduced, it was possible to form a Ministiy without Auckland members. The first' Ministry^ formed by Mr. Sewell contained Auckland members. He begged the hou. member for lUugitikei'spaUlon.forUa behe\ cd a Ministry once firmed by him. did not contain, Auckland members, ond 4 >t only lagtpd a few daya } piohably if it lyid ha.d i\ few Auckland members iv it ib might have sm'viyod those few days. ([..ii>«litei\) *" Again, when his (Mr. Stafford's) iJimstiy was foimed— a Ministiy which had, lasted as long as all the other Ministries put 'together, — it was not formed without the assistance of Auckland mombeis, and it took him some days to construct. The hon member that succeedeuVhim was not able to foim his Ministry without Auckland members, even then ho had only a majority of one j aud then oame the Domett Miuistry, which also contained, A nekland nieiubers. Tl\ey hnd now got a programme of a •Ministry composed of Soutliei ( n membeis, and when they used the wordj Southern and ''lliddlo Islanolie wou'd have hon. membeis toiecolkctthat they weie sometimes used in too comprehensive a sense. - ,/l'he I\qh member for Ellersmere saia "~wo of the South," 1 ; .while i ho,* onljf represented the feelingSv of tho > coustituenoy of one, vavtioulftr di-.tr.ict, ahd th^

thon. member for Wallace' had warned them that *•" we of the" Middle Island " would do so and ■->. Now he (M>. Stafford) was of the Middle Island ("Oh,-' from MivFmanRAT.D), nnd was not to bo plotted by this form of speech. If he was not from the Middle Island would the hon. member toll him where he was from ? Perhaps he would say that he had no interest or stake in any wait of the colony, and although he certainly had not a foot of land in .Aucltlaud or Taranaki. those two places had enlisted his gteatest sympathies. He had represented the constituency he was elected by for ten years, and ho defied any lion member to say ihat ho did not belong to the Middle Island (Hm^.) Tie represented one of the princir.a.l tnwus in it. find the hngct and mo3t important when lie wns lastfelertted. Leaving that subject, he would say that lie had heard with veiy great pain the censure at, the hon. member for Bruce, on tlio motion lately submitted by the hon member for Fran klyn. He had road thnt motion to see if there was anything in it« tetms, which narraiited the hon. member's denunciation, and cun'd not. He could nob voto for the motion, as it cave ba«k considerable constitutional power- which they already possessed, and he would nevi r be a party to voting away those powers and privileges which they possessed or which others might posses (■Hear, hear.) Although the resolution did not p>ay for a despotism, it would give permission to the Home Croverinncnt to establish any government, and which possibly might lip despotism. If <.uch hud not been the case, viz., tho Mirrender of privileges already po>.«c«>ed for ,my other f,>rm of Government the Home Government might • hnose to establish ho could not say that he might not havey been iuduce ' to vote for the resolution. It, was tf painful p< sition for him to he in on a great constitutional qnestion of this kind, from the fnct of his knowing that it had not, been appio tolled in that state of completeness which it ought to ho. (Hoar,/ heaiv) The real question se°med to be overruled lm that of the seat of fiovernment. (Hear.) They knew! very wrll that dming last session it was a gr. at, cry' of Southern members that they hid to attend the ' Genptal Assembly in Auckland wiih pieat inconvp nienee to themselves, and they dccla> ed that if the seat of Government was not removed thpy would coin for separation. On the other h-md. «he Noith said, if the seat of Government was removed, it would sro in for lepantion. But he nally believed now it was an fth-oluWy sincere cry on the pirt of a largo portion of the ]>eople. of this province nnd that no grent Constihition.il question could bp fnirlv debated so long us this question was allowed to overrule every other consideration So pai'>ful had thos» bickerings on questions of minor import-mco hppn to him 'hat he did a<-smv hon members that nothing h.-id been more prominent in his mind than that 0? retiring from public affair- altogether (No.-no ) Bon. mi inbers wcH«l give liim credit ror thinking *o (bear. liear}; in fiet, he had communicated his thoughts t<> many of bis friend*. In 1 expect to a separate Coi.sti'ufonal Government, for Hip 'Vor'h and "South Island* the lion inunber for Onntahad snid it should be first proved tlmt the Home Governipent won'd consent to it. Well he (Mr Stiffoid) did not think tiny would consent to itatpic-ent, but if both Noith and South agteKl hp wis tint pic pared to say that they wou'd not consent. If the foitv thousand people which this province contained demanded a separate Constitutional Government, and were supported by eighty thousand pnr-ons in the nthei i-hnd, he was not, he repeat el. pre ared to eav that the Government would notcon c ent to it, 'I hevhad sppu Victoria and Q"censland separated from Yew Ponfch ww M ipts % which wn a i-nwdpnt for separ>tion here if it was unanimous'v ivqn<">tp ' ; but he was quite prc-paied lo heliev that the Home Government would not a--spnt to a ciy pwceedinw from one section <-f tlu- cnuatrv only. Tf hon mem° bcis in tine South, therefore thought tint attending the Oeneial Aspemhly in Anck'andand thp engi-csg. ing nature of native affair* pri-vented the proper discharge of their legislative duties they should support S'jiaration He did not believe 1 however in the reality of the conn lnint— (hear) I for he recollected that the only session that was held in Wellincton was ehaiactn'ispd hv the consideration r>f almost nothing else bnt, native nff.iiis, and he diM not think thnt the mere sitti' o in Auckland bnd am thing to do with the ron'idetation of native affnirs. But it would lie criminal in tnemheis in the South if they refused to consider nat-ve aff iirs ; and a very true rpmirk ha ' been made bv an hon member that the consideration of native »ffair« was a school in -which a subject was in'roduced whioh misht he most likened to tho-e foreign afifrrrs which occupied the i>ttpi<tif<n of the RritjshPar " jiani?nt. T n»fd""wH h-'hrtfT"' iiad"""it \&y Tieneeffeot in maturing and rdiica'injj die "{lie politicians of New Zeal md (Hpar ) The linn, mem her for I'llesmcie had s>id th<t becinse thoie was no sepai ation the re«t of the colony was ponrins out its lifehlood into Auckland, and the lmn\ member spnkp on this subject with an amount of eloquence that few of them could hope to approach and laid it down with what tnicht he called "stunning" effect. (Laughter) But he (Mr. Stafford! con'd not the basK of it. He should like to know what the people of Auckland had done to derive attacks the — what he would takp leave to call dastardly attacks- made upon tlipm by a poition of ; the 1 ro-s in the Southern Island, that the whole policy of last '■e^'^n was affected l>y iheoo"< l uet of thepeople of Auckland. Clwree- of this kind had hppn launched from time to timp fr<>m n portion of the x piess in the Middle Isl.md. If Auckland Imd held pubic meetings, and Imd agitat' d to change the policy of List sps-ion, tl en he could have understood the charge; but the Auckland people simply accented the policy of the majority— of three-font >hs of the House, and composed of inemheis for di-tricts out'ide the pro vince of Auckland. They paid the «arne money in proportion thar the Son'h dil, and they did more, they risked their lives and their property — (cheers) — and yet the«e da'tirdly charges were made against them which, from their very vaguene-s. culd not be answered. He said that in these chargp*, circulated m the colony and coming from a poi Hon of their own iipws aper pi-pso, nas to be found one foundation for those sneeis which came from Grent Britain, and whii'h the hon. member for 'Rllerslie said he smarted under. (Mr. Fitzgerald did not *ay that he «mnrted under them.) He knew that the hon. mem' ci'« hand was not free fiom flip staiii. ne (^'r Stafford) Imd piivure lett^is from "England .lit well as other pprnnns. nnd he knew where some of the accusations ag/iinit the colonists camp from He was not now liriii'.'ing an neriif=ation acainst the hon. m*-inhf 1 th <t he secretly hated that, which he had not tho tnaiib»e-B (O( O nvnw, He knew that hon. manner hated a cert .in policy, and allusion to payment of £40 ppr man if the troops remnined, was the key to iiis action. He (Mr. Stafford) did not heKve the Home Government would insist unon tlii-» £40 per man. He had no donl>t thpy would likp to get it, hut he did not he'ieve they would get it. and if he did not misrepresent the hon. gentleirnn at the he id of the Government, Mis Excellency did not believe they would tret it. That wan the whole key to the support which the hon. member for ElWMie gay to the removnl of the troons. But he could tp'l the Government thnt their policy wm Absolutely impossible without, fighting.. Could they believe, for a moment, that they would he able to make the road from Warn/Mini to Taranal<i without fighting ? If they did, he could only say that they did not posters thnt foresicht, that prescience which he had given them credit for He did not helieve that the hon member for Ellesmere would say that the road could be mad« without fit'hting ; and if that hon. ifiember l or any other person thought that the road could he made without fighting they were under a delusion He wowld conclude, with a few remiuks, upon the ant portion of the hon. member 'or Fllesmere's speech. He bad pointed out 'hat there had arisen between tho two rac'ps a gat* which had to h" jumped, and before peace' could be had they must hold out the ' right hand of fellowship. He believed that the right hand of fellowship had been held ' out He believed that the hon. member for Rangitikei (Mr. Fox) w»b as conscientious a fiiend of the natives as any man in New Zeiland (he*r,hear,) and he n*d held out the right hand of peace, and had anxiously looked out for an opening to do so. He would' ask the bon. memher for Wallace whether there was ! —"not every exerti">n 'niade to assure the n»tives that the " G<>Y°rnmPnt of which hp was a member were their fro nd< : he knew that such wai the ease ; »nd although it m ght he arrogant in him to say so. it was the case also with respect to his (Mr. Stafford's) Ministry. He fully recof niwd the unto which tne hon. member alluded to, and he said that that gate was inevitable, and that it arose from no other cause than the mer- force of circumstances from two such different Taces living together, and especially ■when one of those races Came into the country ns intruders, on sufferance at first. That was the pecnliar wrakneis of their position— a weaknpss they had already fully realised. - 1 They bad never conquered the country, but c»me -into it now in one place, and now in another, now in this bay and again in "that, and their presence wai at first acknowledged by the natives with acclamation. But, the gate rose up when the nativet found that instead of a, few convenif nt pakebas, they were hecoming turronnded by them, Mid that they had taken possession of all their lnree porU ami hays. , They then besran in 1853 and 1854 to consider the great growth of these pakebM, and then it was that they oarae openly, to advocate the expuliion of these pakehas— or, ai they

cUlefi it, the driving of them into the sea. An; lion, member lm<] said that the ngitation coinraono'd ns | early ns 1848. but hi* memory did .not go,«o far back, f uither than 1853 or 1854, when there was a targe meeting, and they determined tofappose the pakehns. He did not blame them ; he should have done the ' same himself. Let us suppose that we had* allowed a number of » inco of giants with arms of a deadly character, to come into our country, where they were ultimately attaining a numerical ranjorifcy, and the position of the natives would appear moie forcibly to them. He would give his vote for the resolutions in their piesent state, but he would like to have Been them fiamed more in the cliaractei of a State paper, and inoie definite in one or two points. Fiiat it appeared to him Unit the Government had been lather leniiis in .not lefemng to or stating their reasons for (refusing to accept the Imperial guaiantee. A very jlaißo amount of Parliamentary action had taken placo |at home on that quostior, and hefilid not think they ' woulil bo acting with great prudence if they did not very respectfully state why they did wit accept the guai antee. He should vote foi the resolutions especially as the 1 interpiutation upon that principle* involved iij them Hint they were discussing was limited to the tw.o despatches / of Mr. Curd well i ofei led to, and he xlid hope that the/ Government would stiietly confine themselves to those; two despatches. The lute Government found thein-j selves able to act upon them wi'hout contravening tha policy adopted during.the last session, aud he trusted tlie lion, members of tho Government would confine, themselves to them, and not submit to every possible interpretation that Mr. Cm dwell might give. (Hear, !j»w) j^A-fter some crii's of "Adjourn," and a statement from the Government benches, that they wished tho debate tn be finally disposed of that niulit, The Speaker put the question before the Hou«e, that the words pioposed to be iuseited be so inserted, aud declared the " ayes f " had it. Ho then put the adoption of the resolution as amended. Mr. John Wn-rrAsraox moved the following addi^ tion to the resolutions :—: — That, considering tho picsent financial embarrassment of tlic colony, it is expedient that all unnecess irj outlay of public money should bo avoided, and, thcicfoie, bofoio any outlay of shall be incmrctl in tho lemovil of the «eat of Government, his Excellency tlio Goveinor bevcqns.stecl to ilissolvo the Assombl), in order that the question of the division of the colony into tv o sopnrntc Go\ oinnunts may bo fully coniSiclerecl by the olectors of the whole colony in tho choice of ■■ tlioir representatives , and also that copies of these lesolutions, .together with the rejected clause proposed by the lion member for Frnnkh n, be forwarded by tho Speakei to the several Snpei'ntendenti and Speakers of tho Piouncial Councils in the colony. , Mi. Geokgr Graham seconded the motion. Mr. J. O'NriLL niov»-d that the debate he ml].>mneil brfoie the resolutions were adopted, as '•every^ lion. iiicuibeiH <le j iied to speak. . '"^ , Mi. HobMiT Giuha^i seconded the adjournment ■ Mr. Crackoft Wii son opposed it. • Mr. Manj'ELL snl)irntted foi -the cons'i'eration of the Speaker nhether the addition was not &o similar to the qmendiiibiit, which liad been rejected, as to be oil' of oidi^r. , The SfeaKCR sniit they did not bear so close a reSftnlilance t<> the fofmei ainendiuent as to justify him in I'ifoS va ilieiii. Mtijoi Rieii\KDSn'N said, if it was a question with the Auckland membeisof tlie jioweis of enduinnce, the Government would be prcpaied to sit tbeio as long .is their [lowers of endurance would peimit them to do bo 'I ho adjournment was then n.p<jath cd. After borne tern.irks fiom Mi. O'Neill, „ The Spi:aki.u put Mi. Williamsons amendment and ilecLued it negatived,' nnd the adoption of the aimnded icsolnlion was then ))iit and earned AUCKI \NT> RAILWAY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mi. UARLi:r<"N Inouxbtup the leport of the Standing Oideis 'Joinuuttte on this lull, and moved that it lie lead a* first tune. It was rend a fiist time, nnd the *-econ'd reading was fixed for the next sitting clay but one.

DUXEDIN WATER-WOBK9 BILL. Mr. Q.A.RLETOM hrouylit up the leport of the Standing Orders Committee mi this bill, which, on his motion, was read a fiist time; the second rending being fixed for the following day.

SECOVD HEADINGS. The Bank of Otayo (limited) Act Amendment Bill, the New Zealand Banking Con><>rulii>ii (limited) Bill, the Otago mid Southland liive«tmont Company (limited) Bill, mid the Otngo I' ire and Marine lnhvuuiiut: Company's Bill, were nil rend a second tfime. 'I he House adjourned at one o'clock a.m., until l-alf-past four o'clock j\ni. on the following day. ., ,

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 7. "The Speaker tot.k tbecbuir.svt.i.SO^. „ -.-^-1,.

PRIVATE BILLS. Mr. CAiiLETON handed in report* upon the follow ing bills:-- Cemeteries Bill, the N'leafc .Northern linilway Bill, and Great S inhein Railway Bill. Mr. Thomson moved that the Ure.it Southern Railway Bill be iea< fa third time to moirow (Thursday), whioh was cmried. The Canterlnuy and Gie.it Noithern Bill was likewise made an Older of the day for this day. Mr. Outi.ETON laid on tho table the Bank of Auckland Bill. Mi U'NuH. moved that it be rend a thiul time, which was earned. The Bank of Uta^o (Limited) Bill; and Southern Tnvestme'it Bui (Limited), tho Bank of \'ew Zealand Bill, changed into the -Coinmeicial Bank of New Zealand. Thela^t-uientioned bill would not have i Listed tlie committee had it not In en altered, which iiad obtained the consent of the various parties concerned. Wiili that slinht exception, the whole of the Bills weie uno|>i>o<-cd. Tlie Auckland and Dairy Railway Act Amendment Act na<3 lu'uught up and read the second time. The Otago- Fiie and M.irine Insurmce Company Bill wag repotted to have had its standing orders complied with, was read a second time and made a 6t rdi ig Older foi to-nii'irow. Mr. Gillies said he objected to bills being parsed in the way some had just been done. Ihe order papei of, the day stated thittwo pri»atebilk were to be considered. " It wa> unfa-r t > members of tlie House th.it any bu-iness should he gone ou with except that on the older paper of ihe iiay. The Si'KAKiTK''i«d, if Ihe bon. uentleman had been in his place at the time tlie bills weie brought forwaid, he conhl then have innde his objection. It nan quite tlenr that, the bills having pa sed, the decision of the House could not be reversed. Mr. Giliifs iepH< d lie had trusted to the order naner,— lie should not do <--o ayam. «

DUXi-DIN WATEH WORKS BIMi. Mr. Reynolds moved the second reading of tbis l.ill Mr. Giixifs asked whether, in case alterations w<re maile in any hills, a leiliMribution of those bills t"i>k place amonji the memi>eis. Mr Cahlkton Saul that the alterations were made after the second leading. The --jpbakek intimated that the standing older 136 wiih reference to that question, had been suspended, and th it lion, members had no opportunity of Iwiowiiig what altei<Uion« took place unJebS they attended in their places. M lie bill was read a second time.

PETITIONS. Mr. Oarleton presented a petition from certain inhabitants in tlip Bay of Inlands, wbo had been driven from their homei in 1845 by the rising of the natives — their property was destroyed ami their h- uses— that they were obliged to take up arm", and we're threatened with prosecution if "they refused-^j .md that they had 'uot up to the present tinjMjpPl ceived any compenttatinn. They prayed forthe earnest consideration of the House. The petition was read and bid ow the table. Mr. FitzGkrald presented * petition from a number of natives of Tanranga, •tating that Innd had been taken fiom them by the Governor, 'ihey prayed that the land should \fe lestored to them. He (Mr. F.) stilted that th« petition- was couched in re*p' ctful terms. The petition was "written iv the Maori language. Mr. Mantkli, read the petition. M> FitzGerald moved that the petition hereceived. Mr. Colenso said that inasmuch as the stattuien^ made that the land wat taken by the Governor, a»Jr that they v\ ere culled upon to judge the Conduct of, his Excellency, he thonjiht it would be d dangerous precedent to establish -to receive a petition of that nature. Mr.?WEIiD said it would he a dangerous precedent to prevent thr reception of petitions from any persons. Major Richardson moved that the petition should' be translated by an authorised translator before being received. Mr FitzGeralu withdrew his motion, and having seconded Major Richardson's motion, it was carried. PARLIAMENTARY PAPISRS. M".< Weld laid en the table papers respecting the amount realised from intestate estates in Otago ; papeis relating to the hm of her Majesty's ship 'Orpheus;' also a leturn of rules and regulations made under the Gold Fields Act. On the motion of Mr, Weld, the papers were ordered to be printed.

A NATIVE PROCLAMATION. ■ * Mr. Weld read n translation of * letter which had heenreceived by his Excellency, the Governor from William Thompson, Wuikato, informing the Governor that the natives of the Waikiito weie deiirous of treat ing with his . Excellency for peace, and. that William- , Thompson wm denirotis of calling the natives | together for! the purpose of proclaiming pence. He (Mr, ' Weld)

j, oliserved tlmt he had liuurd itiKt Bimilar overture* had I been matin fiora two oihor quarters. This letter wajk not iigiioil.'bnt the Imiidwriting of Willium Tlioin])Son haa'b'eon ideutiiie.d by au lion, meinbov of tho House.' It was nothing unumal for letters of natives to hnre no signatures attuched. ; l i The letter was ordered to be printed. ,;< *.

ADJOURNMENT. „ Mr. Wkld intimated that he would propoje, 01L Saturday, to adjourn the House until Tumday, the usual day of sitting, at twelve o'clock, when he would nsk his Excellency to prologue the House at two o'clock. Mr. Bhodie asked tho honourable member at the head of the Government if ho would takH any notice of the mutter in a hostile light ; and' ho also wishu, to know if (lie member* werengieoable to leave that place at that »-tage of the Notion. Mr. \Vicr,o replied that ho did not present tho question in n hostile light; the action of the Govern ment in this mutter had been to endeavour to me?* the wish of the House. (Hey, hear,-) The Governmerit debited to meet the convenience of the House, The Government wns not piopaied'to carry ,011 tho Inisineiß of the Hoump if honourable member" wished to absent themselves from the Hnn*.e. If tliOMj lneinheis who, he 'understood, had tnken their pas sage to leave the province, were content t" remain, the Government w^ere ready to go on with the business. (Hear, heai.) Mr. VoGiciiSaid tlio convenience of members at a distanco would not he infringed upon if the session would last until 18th December. He bt'lievod if the Government were desirous of proceeding with the important business to bo brought before tlie House, those honour.rf'le mem' er* were willing to remain a-> well ns fcho'e members from bhe Middle Island. The subject then diopiied,

DILI, FOR RAISING £1,000,000. On tho-tnotinn -of- Mr.--.tyiLi.ON B»u,- the-Houso into committee. , J^Rlr. Pitzhrpbkbt moved for leave to brine in a bill for the mising of £1,000,000 by Treasury Bills. Ho observed thnt theie were sninn enors in the hill as presented, which would be corrected. As he ii • ' ten>lpd on next day to 111.1U0 a nrnnru-al for extiaoidinary ways and means, which lie had referred to i i his financial it would not lio expressed that he should entei into the matter at Hi at hnn It «a» not a new lo m that was jsKetl f.>r but it wj's the intpuHon to raise thp money on ihosp bill* in anticipntion of the three million loan un lei- the terms of tie Acb. Leave was ciaiUfd-to bring in the bill,-and tlio Cjjiiinnan (Mr. C ileton) reported aco»nlingly *^CNUAErFS OP PORIRUA AND MANA\VATU DISTRIOT3. Mantkll. in asking the Co'onial Secretmy whether nny applications had been roceived fmm tlio native i e-i ent^ at OWki and its neighnoiiih»O'l, fur an nltpration of ths hnundnric^ between the Porirn i and Manawatu districts "-aid he had heard fornpariv ■ lSiTionths|>nstof an a>;it.-iti >n amongst Hie Y\a>iv(S .it Otalci us leparded thp present boundaries. He w.is anxious to know whether the Governrne.tt weie in possession of any iufortnitionqii the suliject. Mr. Wkld said the Government lml only in its possession one letter on the subject referred to, aiid which he should be happy for the hou. gentleman to iiei use.

DEBTORS AND CnEDITORS AOT, ISG2. Mr. Wilson, in asking whether timing tne recess the Government were prepared to take into consideration ibe Debtors nnd Creditois Art 1852, 1 wiMi a view of amending the same, said the result of the Act in existence hud been most fntal in inconsequence to the gencml mercantile community. He was not. hinr-elf much of n.bnsim*snrtn.hnt'tillhG h.id snffoied no little from the wori ing of the DeMois and Creditors Act 18f>2, which in C.intei bury was univer-iilly considered ns an Act for *.he reliof if delitor-i and the ruin of creditois. Re only wished to ask whether the Government intended to take the matter into their consideration. He did not thidk tliHt any Act that mi»ht be passed should ignore the exppiienee of the List linndie 1 years. « Mr. Weld said the subject would fpceive the anxious consideration of the Government duiing the receb».

GOT.D DUTY ACT. 1858. Mr Domftt in moving hi* notice as to linw a sum of £1.149 6<?. 4d . ret-ni'iv d in the account current For 1862 ns coll- cted.at Nelson inPcptemTitr, 1862 uudei>the Gold I'wty Act, IS4B, < was disposed of, Raid tliafc liuco placing tlie question upon .the paner he had found out that the sum referred to had hpen placed to the- account of an acrumulatwe, fund, and wa"- included in the bulanc^of nccoiu.t", up to the la^t peuoil liroiicht liefoie the < en«urc of Aha House. Ho would th«iefoie jivithdraw h^g^-, tion. ' '

cxothtvci op vot.untfkrs. Mr C. Ward asked whether the Government purpose<l 1 o i«-sne any furthrr clothing to volunteers h the Middle Taland. It was intende.l touring out tho facb whether there had been an insufficiency Qf clothinsr to meet the demand made under certain arraneements with the volunteers. Re wished to Unow what steps tl o Government intended to take to obtain a uniform clothing for the" 1 volunteers. It was not well that one man should wear a red coat, one apieen, one a and .mother anything ho liked ; or was it- the intention of the Government to snpp'y the volunteeis with means sufficient for clothing themselves ? ->>- Maj <r at kin-ox said there was no clothing for distr liuHon lit present in existence. He should go into thp niaitei during; the session, and. should he find the pre-ent opinion cirried.ont, he should ie<'mnmend as being a pr«-fer.ible cntuse that the v-limtoeis should have an allow .ance for clntliini! The unilorm-i that had been issued by the Goveri ment had created a good deal of cli^ati^fnrtioii in his own iirovncp Tluie had lieen foitysmt* fcltnt men cou'd not gt-t into. Hethouaht it would he "well to call in thn uniform from tl.e provinces, fit th^m to some ot the \oluuteeis, and give allowance to <itheis. iif ' Mi 1 'ji PAYMENI' OF FINE BY lIOIIFPA. = Mr. Ca'ei.iKTON in a^kintr whether the fine inflicted on Hohepn, of Matiutri, fftr an attempted tape on the dauglifer of a settler at TVaihoa had been paid said, the individual c<>mi lamed of had put the Go. vernor at (l°fiii«co. f'ltimatply the matter nai compounded, as heconsidired. by the magistiates of .the di-t'iot, hy his bninsf ordeied to piy a fine of £50 After this penal'y hail been impo'-ed the man' had thipateneil to shoot the brother of the woman whom he had assault e<l. He (Mr. C.) «i>.h>d to know whether, up to the present time, the fine h.ul been paid. Mr. Weld snid he had m.ide inquiries and couM in'orm his hen. fiiend that the line had been pi>id v ■(Hear, hear ) Vr. Cahleton asVed whethei the fine hid been paid by the x native complained of or by the Govern meiit (Lnughter ) Mr. Wi-ld said he did not anticipate such a ques-* tion from the hon gentleman. (t^H^hter.) ITp should consider that the fiuo liad beei paid' Tlolu-pa. j Mr. Carlfton said lie would not place a fresh notice on the pape> with iesi> ct to the matter, as he believed his hon. friend would infoim the House if be found the fine had not been paid by the native. Mr. Wkhj said if he found the fine had not been paid by the native he would immediately inform the House of the' fact, hut at the same time he thought there was little doubt on* the matter, as thewoi<la used to him were, "paid tlnough the "resident magistrate." %

<£$T OEDKR OP BUSINESS. Mr. Gillies drew the attention of the Honse.to the state in which the order ]iaper had now become,, from the fact that the order of the day had beenJ inserted in the middle of the paper, \vliich_ he {Mr. G'llif") considered very lrtegnlar, hy lea- ling hon. members astray as to how the lmsiness would be taken up, and referred to clause 2 of standing orders, which weut so far as to state that notices of motion should piecede the otheis. * The Sfeakfr said it was true that clause 62 still remained, but there had been a 'later one, which caused the old one to be null and void.

PANAMA MAIL SERVICE BILt. -J?^ Richardson, in moving tho'eecond readme;! of this rtQI," said it would not be neoessaiy for him to occupy the attention of the House at any length on the subject;, as a lengthened debate had already \ taken place on the subject upon the resolutions pioposed on a previous evening The House was not not now to consider whether the Panama Bet vice wan to be adopted or nr.t, but whether tbpio vas an obligation on the Government of New Zeal.uul^gp not, and the nature and extent, of tbV allegation After alluding to the proceeding* which had fcaktn pl.ico with referen c to the entering into th- contiact, he referred to the prdvi-ionsof-the Post -office Act, 1858// He i end the opinion of counsel bearing upon that Act, in which he otated that Mr Ward, the Postmaster-General, was not emjiov ered to enter int<r the contract on ;bebalf of the.. New Zealand Government, and that the Government hud no power to 'authorise, the Postuiastsr-General, to convey mails beyond "the colony,".. The power belonged virtually to the" British Government ; they coiild only legally, exercise that power. By reference to resolutions of-ap>-eyioiw,ResHO>>— August, 1862 — they wou'd find the instructions given to;the Post-, master-General, to 'the effect ejiat i £30 1 000"wonld . he granted for fiv.e years as a cpfttrib'ution towards the "intercolonial portion of thnt'seijrico. It ytjw only atfon-* • tribution to that service:: Mr.v Ward Va9_iiniler tt\e| opinion th'»t it was merely a "cohtributiouj .and he '

felt it to be bis duty aa Poittiiaster-ponemr-ti) induue the Imperial Government' to take iip ,1116" contract. That gentleman iia<l no part in thrcontraofc himself. ti 2 o had failed in his endeavoius to T do so. „\Vith re- | Bpect to counsel's opinion as to Mr. Ward's powers in > general, that legal opinion was that' that gentleman had uo power to exceed the contract 'for the set vice. That power lay with the Government and Executive Council of New Zealand. In the oiiginal draft of the eoutrnot a provision was made in it which did now apReur in it. A provision, had been inserted at the lfeijuest of Mr. Ward, that the conbiact should not be binding until it "should receive the snnction of thab ITuuse. (Mr. Wbm> : Not at my leqiusfc.)* A» far ti,f> the document went the document went there was no legal binding on the Government, and he (Major Tijcl|ai d«on) thought that wus the opinion entertained by thefoimur Government. The lion, member (Mi. -Ward) had exceeded hiirpowers >in respect to the •amount, and the (luiutton of the service, and also in respect to the (Jolemuu contiact. The monopoly clajM^ he (Major lliohardsnn) consulted; to' be IjJ? most objectionable point; and it was evident that it was monopoly that had been -inteiided by thelVtmastei-Ueneial. Thelntercnloni.il Company were wrong in accepting the monopoly of poweis — but thi re ' were advantage* tm their side, and lie (Mnjop RiclmniHon) doubted whether tlieio weie rorlubpomling advantages on the side of t l iis eolonv. The question which the Hotihe had to consider was whether tlieie was any ■ moial obligation on the part of .Now Zealand and to what extent— whether there was not some moral obligation to fulfil to some extent the as-urned. contract entered into. Tbeie was no legal contract binding the Uonse, but tbeie, was, in his opinion, a ceitain amount of moial olih-' gadou which should mduce the House to" accept tlucontiact subject to ceitain modifications. When tho original clauses were drifted out, Mr. Ward c.ist out the clauses that. would have given the House she power to deal with the whole uiaUt-r. 'I he House should nou forg t its moral oblig ition. The question then arose as to what -they could do to meet those obligations. As regmls the postal levenueand ex| endiinre of the years 1862 and 1803, the return showed that ISG3 stood at a disml vantage to 1562. He would " duect the attention of the House to the faob that that which was the wrong paying part of the postal (lepaiimoiit had rnoreastd immensely. He would ntitb that next session tU--i e should be some arrangement made to h.ivu a Bin»llstauiii pub ii|iou pipeis. Ho did not wish it to be consider d that he desired to pubat.ixon lituiature; but the state of the j/oat.il teu. ipts and expenditure lequired it The lion gtiitleiuan quoted from lytums the amoum. paid for ,s ton m subsidies, and the amoiiiit realised fiom the postal set vices. Tho .imouut pirn fin steam subsidies, including the piopoitimi of money pai to the Imperial G .\ eminent for the route between Mel'lonrne ami England, aiuoimci d to a tntil *nin of £71.01)0. Their postal bei vices up to Ni>vunli« 1848, was A 57.728. It was for tho llou-.o vo state how tlmy were to treat the expense "f the Panama route if they were to kpnp up their Intel colonial seivices 'J'lio directors of the company were leady to consider the question us to the o l ih gutiou of the NtiW, Zealand Government, but they lejiiuliated the idea 'that they knew that the lion, meinbtr (Mi. Waid) had no power to enter into the contract. The Government proposed that the monopoly should 1.0 uttuly dtstioyed. They consider that the (Jolenmu con tact should be accepted. J'hev also consider thf t they should not bind themselves to five yeaia, and the pei lod of ten days betw een the extremes of the piovinces. It was not for linn (M»j»i ttichaidson) to Buy whether the colony could bear that liability, but it appealed to him thut it would be highly iujlniou* and unjust to cast off tho'-c two Intei colonial seiviceß vvhich co>itldcted New Zealand .fiom iNoilh to Souih. 'I he extiemes of the piovinms, Sydney and Otago should not be saeuficed for the Panama contract. He Imse.l hid calculations on the supposition that the Jntcieoloniiil and Intel provincial aei vices weie to bekt.pt us they weie. , ' Mr FitzGeuald said lie should like to know whether the company win cognisant of the proposals made by tho hou gentleman. Major lUohakdsojj said tho company were aware of tho fact tnat alterations were pio])osccl to be made Mi VootL said ho would move an Amendment to the present motion. fie hud listened to the remarks of the lion, gentleman, and he could well consider it hs a feut of oratoiy that had never been exceeded He should be glad if a record of the hon member's speech couU bo made in the journals of the House, though not as a specimen of the morality of the Hoii«* He c»n';.de.ed his sppech had been in complete opposition to the bill lie wished to intioduce It was also a a curious facttliat no other member of the Government was present when their colaMijnio wio u\' c Wising tho, subject „Do did not think, the hon gentleman caied much for the " credit" 'ot the colony in proposing conditions as weie implied in the bill uurter discussion Erery hon gentleman had a duty to perform to their constituents, and would not unnecessarily .. involve the country in an enormous cost The House was told ' that the cicdit of tho colony would suffer if the present bill was not carried out He should like to know if the ciedit of the colony was involved who was to blame for it The colony ■ lmd not been guilt} of anything which would warrant such a J chaigo Had tho late Government accepted the contiact? The colony should clear itself of any imputation of acting in a dishonourable munner, and not allow blame to be attributed to it falsely It was not meiely a question foi the present duv, but these that came aftei It was a seiious tfwig foi an act of repudiation to hang over the colony Tho lion gentleman was vi long if he thought the Government could burke discussion on the question. Hon gentlemen were told that tho cost would not exceed £30,000 If it could be shown by the expenditure of such an amount a saving could bo saved in any | other postal anangeme"nts jvcll and good He believed tho sci vice would cost fully £30,000 Tho honourable gentleman stated that the alteiation 'would involve a very trifling e\penSe, but he (Mr Vogsl) believed if they were earned out, a rather startling .imount of money would be involved If the bill wns parsed, thi> company would be mlly justified in thinking tho colony liable foi far moie than the House at the piesent time behev ed lie (Mr. "Vogul; be! eyed the money value of tho stipulation that It was pioposed to ask the company to waive- amounted to over £3(1,000 ' ite-pect-mg the ~3,000 foi postal service between Auckland and Sydney, he did not deny the necessity (if such a Seivice, but he did emphatically deny that It was necessary or pioper to pay so l.n^c a sum for the seivice -Uhe piesent state of Mapping in the watus of the province made the fact palpible that not more than £ii,oou need be expended on the seivice between Auckland and Sydney , and thereby £7,000 saved to the colony Tho House was told the, directors woul-1 have no right to make a eicate; claim than other steam companies would make for a uimlnr seivico By the course pioposed he (Mr V ) believed othor companies' iteamers would bo drawn a«av It competition vv.is not allowed no companies would bo found making dumi.. tenders for a, ceitain contiact uieioly to giatify tho colon) or its Government in seeing what the service could he pel formed for Vessels would not stay in the vvateis of the province of Auckland foi thepinposeof being a gnule f3 to what should be chaiged by the Intei colonial or any 'ther company foi a particului desciiption of seivice He (Mr V.) thought by the couise proposed to bo pursued all competition would be destroyed looking at the piesent class of veaseh pIyWK to various' places and ports, and the piesent nics charged, he thought that "competition— .i healthy amount ot competition — would tend veiy much to lower to aueat degieo tho present cliuigos and also to^jntri'f'ntce a biittoi cl iss <if vessels He would a»k the llouso to look at the m itter and say boldly and m nfully it wu-. very sorry foi the hon .gentleman who 'brought foiwinl the motion, and veiy ooiry for Mr. Crosbio Ward, but would not ailmlt thii foi the suite 1 of satisfying certain individual feeling it should sacrifice it« credit or agree to pursue any course which vyould tend to biing upon the colony an enormous liability. ' Tho House would not bo guided by any moibid sentimentality Ihey vvonld act upon tho principle of being just before they were ptenerous If r the coffers of tho tolQny happened to bo well filled it would be nil veiy n ell to talk about giving money away in the mannei proposed , but the Honse would not, he would repent, do it for tho sake of satisfying tho feelings of certain itidhiciiuls The llouso would not consent to add to tho llnancial liabilities of the I'ountry, which alicndy weie «o largo as to take the honourable gcptleman thofColonial Ticasuier three horns and foity-flve minutes to go through The elfect of his amendment was to postpone the discussion of a subject which ought not to be. settled in any way hastily and without very caieful consideiation. He hoped the House would accopl his amendment. Thoie never had bten a greater amount of humbug than that announcement of the Canterbury members as to their willingness to ciriy out that contiact, whilst the wholo difficulty hs to ratifying that contiact was in that of aj! money vote, we therefore, were simph in tho position of 1 supposing that tho hon. member had not been in' colleague with the Government in the matter althouahi there was every reason _for believing that they wore anxious to see ' the i colony savo £35,000 Thoie had however, boon in the othe? House an hon. member in tlio Government who had done a moral olligation winch ho had never heard of before by dividing the company and the colony , and between tho two ho strikes out tho balance, and that the colony 13 in equity to carry down tho balance He, thorefore, hoped that they should not bo bound in this liability Until vif knew what company was likely to accept the cariying out the civil service mail contiact OAa concluded by pioposing tho. following amendment:— That this llouso does not consider the colony bound by the contract entered into by Mr Crosbio Ward with tho Intercoloniiil Company, because that gontleman not only exceeded tho instructions given to him by his Government, but assumed to possess powers beyond those which his Govei nment could have given, without the consent of this House. That, feeling great sympathy with tho company on account of tho false position in which it has been placed, this House desires, as far as it is consistent w th the welfare of the colony, to mett tho views of the company in reeard to entering into a contract Tor currying out a Panama service." Staitord seconded the ainondment, and said ho would •aefoi his remarks foi a future occasion, but at the same tune he thought it would have been better, had tho hon member held over that amendment, more especially when there were so many important subjects bearing upon questions of vital importance, and when hnn. members had now become desirous of closing tho session shortly He did not, however feel desirous of wishing the House to think that he liked the contract as it stood and that the lemarks whloh had fallen from the hon member were such as should not havo beon permitted in any House. „,,,. , !\ '. r, Mr. GiiiLiKS joined with the last speaker in protesting against the remarks of the hon. member for Dnnedm; as he (Mr'Gilliea) concidoied thut they should have giventho Government praiso for bringing tho matter forward in goqd faith (Hear hear). Tho Postmaster-General, who had put forth tlw bill in a finished state, boing willing to amend it on Monday, so as to havo it amended, ho vyoubiask tho hon mom'ier for j)nnertin tip allow tho quest'on to be adoptod, that tho whole matter may be settled upon the bill { Mr. Vooel thoucht that if tho second roadtng werojallowed to be carried, tho colony ..would be liable , but ho would leave thoT matter entiroly»in tho hon. gentloma'n's own hands, nnd if it lj«-desiious that it should bo done, he; would intorfero no further. ,t_ »_. I i* 3JIr. Pitziieiibert said he had made one or two offers, and flib (would perhaps bo so far inform u d as to throw opt some I addition*! light upon the snbject,,especiaUy the views, of the

Government, in their bringing forward the me.isure ; but he Would flrit of all refer to the insinuation* thrown out by the lion member in rofeience to the hon. member for,C»ntubnry (Mr Ward), which had no foundation whatever, and the Government had not brought fornnid the matter that it might icreen Mr. "Ward from *ny such thing as he had lefened tp. It had 'simply been done to as to n.aintain the credit of the colony, and the Government wi»h to carry it through with that object, that there might be a gieat boon in having the Panuma'lino, Mid for tjiat object alone lias it beon broupht forward, as they never had "been yet undor two opinions upon tho subject. Tho intention of the Government had beon for tho benefit of having a*select feominitteo in regard to tho matter of details, at they were important , that it might bo satisfactory settled by a "select committee, which would be able to giva assistance in thff fuitherance of the view* as indicated by his^lion. frienil the Postmaster-General, that it might bo carried out according to Hie suggestions givon. , Airs IttoiiARDSON rose, not to speak to the question, but to thank the hon mumborfor Nelion'for rising; up and defending the House from the remarks which hurt fallen from the hon mombei for Dunortin, as they had beon of a very irrelevant naturo. • < „ '>,'■■'■> + Mr (Voaisr, regretted very much "being so iniutflclent in courtesy.;" and, therefcre, apologised to hon memben if he in' aliy way offended V * s " fi\\. Wabd said that tho lion mombor for Dunedin,/«]iad reproached him with not answermsr several questions upon the tesolution, but the hon gentleman would be good enough to recollect that at a later parl of the day ho hud ', somewhere about a quaiter of an hour to reply to long speeches He, howevei, could not say that li^Mrr^togel) was not voijr guilty of perspicuity and intelligence on subjec s, and in expressing opinion 1 ! that were very often wrong, by making many mistakes, and by allowing false ideiis to run away .with him. Ho had, however addressed himself, however pa tially, lo the qnustion of authonty or, legality. He, however, stood upon the broad fact that JJS* (Mi. Ward) as a Minister had 'been sunt home by his colleagues, and induced by theni, so fai as ho understood, had very iarge powers that he might do a veiy diflicult work, which the Assembly li<id said in the piovious session had tobedono. He Imagined that whon in tho excicise of that important woik necessary to bo Clone, "and which tho Ministry condescended to give him, he lintl been left with such dnections as to the piocoedingi which "teuld bo placed in fi\6 hon. m-mbei's hand, when it would bo seen that those insti notions had not boon limited, but lie had been"e\pected to act to tho full amount of his own opinions. Them, howevei, had been jnno point | which had been hinted to him, which was the point of call for the mail steamers, which at the tune had been the sole limitation. Ho did not think that any existing Ministry did or could have loaded him with powers winch they hail not possessed, but when tho hon member for Dunedm told him that he not only acted beyond the instructions given him by his colleagues, which had only been given under tho nuthouty of the Home— if tho Mm stryj did clothe him with power it was only what they possessed/ in appointing him with that one except oji o r the port of cull. And it wns intended by the Government of the dny that there should be/a service between New Zealand and England via Panama,iind wh eh would not cost over £40,000 a year , and ho csuld show to the House that the contract hud been madu for a sftin which was only double that which the colony of New Zonland hid to p*aj And if that be the cine, and if there bo any reasonable probability that that £30,000 or even £50,000 could come from legitimate and puliliog revenues, ho thought that the House would bo prepared'^' say that the action taken had not been beyond that uhicli tho House intended to entiu-it to any one'who had been going to carry ontthat l'anani* c mtract. It did not limit the contract to any particular sum 'I ho lion gontltman was exceedingly eleter and ho for one should like to see li.m as an administiatoi, am\go home to get up a Panama contiact for £00,000, "which had beer*, befoie, he must hare calculated, from £150,000 to £200,000 per year Ho had addressed him (Mr Ward) repeatedly, in such a manner us he had became «iok of his name, but ho (Mr. Ward) hud not been a party picked up in the streets* whom they had sent lie could not liava been a member of the Ministry, nor* member of the Assembly ; but, as Ooibie Waid, w.s not to be treated as such. Mr Vooel was sorry he had given the^hon. geptleman so much uneasiness but could iwsui c th< hon number that such had not been his idea - ' Mr Ward would submit tho rriit er to the rule of tue Speaker, but would not allude to It ae.iin He would st>ite to hon members that the Act of ISO 2 .luthonsdd tho Uov>>r>ior to make negotiations with tho I nwrml Government with ceitiin colomts for the purpose of establishing a Panama seivico , that Act was tho ostensible authority to do so .New South Wales had n similar Act, but uule3S the Impeiial Government bore luilf tho costs they would piy nothing, bi\t would to tho actual extent of one-half the subsidy. Tho Colonial Secretary of New South Wales met him (Mr Waul) m the fiankest manner, imd stated that the subsidy from that place would bo foithcqming, and ho would instruct his ugeni at home to ally himself with him (Mr. Ward) in having it curried out. Ho would stale tlmt the most difficult thing to pass tlnough the House of Commons whs a po^fal contract , and the game would have been spoiled in the last act of the Government in promising a postal seivice which had not been worthy of consideration. He meant the Galwuy and America contiact Tho Panama route was capable of giving that which tho olhei routes could not give to the colony, ts thuio had been .one month m every .five lost by tho' latter Some gentlemen thought that tho credit of the colony would be involved by the contiact being earned out in its stuct letter, but he could not sco hjw such a statement could be maintained m the least He did not agr. c with monopolies foi he believed, by its pievention of competition the publ.c purse was vastly concerned and suffered greatly , but it could not bo justly said there was sti icily a monopoly so far as the Panama contract Hsslf wus concerned , but at tho samo time he would candidly say ho considered the monopoly clause a lilot upon the contract Ho nhonlil liko to see negotiations take placo for its extinction. Ho was not to be charged with any local preference m' the matter of the selection of Auckland in preferonco to Wellington '1 ho company in the selection of Auckland, did not come to him (Mi H.J for information As a company trading for many years they Investigated tho mitior themselves, and when they found there was no lighthouse at Wellingion, chiefly for that and other nautical loisons, they gave the pieforence to Auckland as th- point of caS His (Mi B 's) instructions were to give tho conti actors leave to call at those places which could be done at the smallest cost to the co'.ouy. It was nsceitiiined there was no difference between the two placesj so f«r»s tlio cfist was concei neu, though che nnljage ri.. rather loss and in favour of ■Wellington It could not be said that he fixed Auckland when Wellington was clearly mentioned m the contiact. The continuation of the Colennui contract had also bien made a great objection to the contrtct under discussion lie had not been able to find out the objection The colony, bail derived and was deriving gr atadvantngo from the Colem.m contract' When ho iMr Ward! was piessmg to ask a contractor Panama, if ho had put an end to thr Coleman contract, tire colonies would luve lost <» sum amounting t"w£l3,ooo pei annum Kespectingthe question of cost, it was notforthoi colony to think how it could keep.illit had got, and obtain something riioie, but it was foi the colony toco sider which was tho best of the two lines of postal communication with England—, tho Panama op the Suez loute It would, not be right for the j strength of the colony to be spent betwoen the two— paitly in behalf of throne, and partly m behalf o- tho other It must be tithei the Panama route or the Suez route If there was any question of financial emba'Ussmcnt, he was bound to ask the liousu wtiether they would take tho best line of communication with Euiopo, -or the infenor lme. He could not agieo with the hon member opposite that-they were to have all the advantuges of the Miez route, aud that they would lrive tho luxury of tho Panama seivice just as far as they wished to use it— they would have to give up one if they meant to have the other If the biiez route were valuable bjr Marseilles, it would nof be valuable bj Southampton. If they were to use the Suez loute at all, they could only do it by that class of correspondence that went by Marseilles, "Inch did not amount to one-si\th of the whole > As soon as the Panama hue was opened, the lemaining ftve-si\th> would go by that route EionwiTO the two loutes equal it would be the duty of tho Postmaster-General to send the con -<spondenco by the Panama line The coriespondence of Now Zealand was enluigiug gieatly. Their conti ibutions had increased fioin 3J- to IU, W\ per cent , and now stood .it 20 pel cent The p oportion of letteis m ISO 3 was 161 P=r cent , and a few years bick it >vas only 5 per cent Their propoiUon of tho contribution was laiger than other places, had to pay They hud to piy foi all the steps of the line Jhe cost of tho Miez lino from tlio time they began to contribute towards ft was £200,000. Tl c proportion of contribution would rise fiom 19 per cent to 22 per cent on the whole evponse Tie Claimed £ 1 0,000 as a saving on the Suez load the first year If they wanted to mipiovo the Suez road to get lhe advantage of a fmtmghtly postage, one hall more would have to bo addi d foi that advantage £98,000 was U\o estimated cost He hid i educed the Panama expensn fiom £<i 3 000 to €-10,000 flo hoped \\c w mild not be turned i>sick for ihe of £:0 000 a} em Hs contend d that he had shown good retisui wh> the Panama contiact should ha takon up '.}>• ihis colony, and he would like that tho matter should bo biought befoie a select committee Mr. Dillon Bell said he shoald not VnnK. it necessary to take up tho time of the House to any gicat length aftei tho full statement of the hmi Gentleman (Mi, Crosbie Ward). Hr did not lielieve J;hat gentleman went beyond Ins authorised powers when he went to England. The House did not limit Mr Ward's discr tion. except upon 'he m^ tci of the port of call It earned to he thought nlmoit a uJtie that Mr Waid should have stated that Ko had plomrv iitm.r-.in the mattei of the Panama contract, but was it ntn t a unions and astonishing thniß that no one liad ever raised any similar obj'cctions to Mr Hairier Wood's pioceeriin,s in Englind with le-pect to the £3,000 000 loan Throughout the whole pioceedmgs of the Fannmn contiaut he thought afrrtat want of business knowledge had been exhibited Ha. did not believe any difficulty would be e\.pu!cnced in getting contributions fiom Sjdncy and Queensland towards tho expense of tho contratt. The thanks of tho colony wero duo to Mr Waul for the cow so ho had piusucd m England. Mr. Gillies heio moved the adjournment of the Uou-.o Mr. Weld said he hoped the adjournment would not take placo. It would be impossible for the business that was before the House to be got tlnough during the, fu)v days that remained pi ovious lo the time whon the Government propospd that Kxcellencv the Governor should be asked to prorogue the House— next Tucsdav Mr. J; Williamson smd ho .should not oppose the adjournment of the debato but ho should oppose the adjournment of tho House lie thought thnt rtunng the *hort period that it was proposed the present session should last, an opportunity should be afforded hon gentlemen to moot and answer fully manvinsinuatioris that had boon thrown out against them Mr \ Wilson would oppose the adjournment. A statement had beon made that some hon members had taken p<ssa es by the" Airedale,' which sailed to-inonow As peiliipsho wasiefoned to, ho had neihaps bettor state that he had a passage on board the 'Anedale ' but that Mich pas-.a<;e had not been taken by,,lum«olf, but by a friend of his, who thought ho would be able to return to-morrow. He (Mr W ) would assure tho House it w»s not his intention to leave until tho House had beon piotogued and had never purposed doing so ne could not understand why hon Rontlemon wished to adjourn at so early a timo as a quarter to eleven o'clock There had boon times when hon. gentleman carried on the business of the House until past throe o'clofik m tho moinin?, and then felt themitlves as fio«h as larks Mr Reynolds thought it would be well that honourable gentleinon should confine their speeches to a quaiter of an hour's or twenty minutes' duration, ( Laughter J Mr Gillies said he did not wish to press fhe adjournment by a->y means, but had proposed it, thinking it probablo ho should occupy tha timo of the House to some length by tho remarks ho should feel it his duty to make upon tho matters before tho consideiation of tho House, Ho should not state to tho House whether ho should be a quarter of an hour or' twenty minutes, or three lionrs -ho could not do so, for he did not know lie should mako his remarks -as was his usual practice as briefly .as possible, consistently with his duty to his constituents and the colony at largo He (Mr Gillies) thought the House was not bound by evpry item mentioned in the contract , in fact, that in truth there was no contract at all. The colony might perhaps bo moially bound to carry out the contract, he would not dispute that . but he would main- j tain that so long (is the Houso had not recognised the con- i tract thoy were not legally bound. He thought the hon. gentleman had stated the matter fiirly and fully, and would I bo glad that tho bill received amendments in committee. No Postmaster-General noi tho Ministry could enter into contract over one yo.ir or m excess of the ostlmatos. He admitted that a full servlco could not havo been obtained for ,£80,000 ! but tho hon member had no right to establish a sorvice at tho sole cost of the colony He was authorised to contribute t w'aids tho'Panama service Ho had no power undoi tho Panama. Act to extend tho term of yeara to inEroaso the cast or accept Hie monopoly clause The hon member could not Iwvh powots delegated to hi-n by the ijover-J nor! to give instructions to himself in' tho matter- •■ ' Did the/ hori member oarcy out tlio contract in good faitivat a price tlio Legislature "wished? - If ho had done so, then he (Mr G.) would, not dispute about what that hon. msniberlmd received,,

5 But th* thl i q nad not been done according to the wlib of thit colony. It win nover the intention of tliii'eolony 'to ont off • the i onto via Suez. The lowest price at which the Panama sline couUrhVdone, free from objectionable monopolies ww '£100,000. To lay tlmt it would coit £03,000 was limply ft 1 deliuion It w»« al»o a delusion lo expect from the Panama route these great thing! tlmt lion members leemed to expect. It was not by Panama that the latest news could be obtained from England. Tho papers that had been printed and were in the hands or me mbers, did convey a fair and impartial view of the case. With regard to the opinion-! of counsel, he did not place much reliance upon inch opinions unless lie know what was the case fubmitted to them He did not believe the House would gfvo r up the Suez route for the Pairamivr,oute., If there *M a great ■ deal of money to upend on the'partf of, the colony he.wmild not tbenobjpct to the oxpi-rimentibelng- tried < ,He bad no doubt tho colony would, to lomt, extetit, receive great corncommercial advantage The hon gentleman concluded his remarks by Baying he should consent to the tecond reading of the'bill upon the understanding that amendment! were rand* in 'committee. - , „ , Mr, Wit.ctahson proposed that the debate be adjourn- d. - Mr fiTziiEBBEHi hoped tho lion, gentleman -would not pre« tho adjournment of he debate. The question had, he though', been sufficiently discussed. Mi. Graham thought the matter should bo adjourned out u of consuleiation to tho Ministry, one. of whom only was In his seat. ,- - ' , - ' Anoihor member of the Ministry bore came forward and took his ssat * - * , , f Mr^iLtiAMSONsaid ho wished by tho adjournment of tho debate to ascertain from tho Colonial'] reasurer where it wnj intend d the money was to come from foi the caityine out or thecontiiict Tho Ilnuse had not received ono word .of information on thi si bjeot <^nic Speak«u Hv n pat the question of adjournments the ■"House, wh eh was negatived, the ayes being 10, the noes 29, Tho House resumed at a quarter-past 11 o'clock. Mr. ItonFitT Graham "laid ho should not support the second reading of tho bill. The contract had never been, legally entsred into , , , Mr. Colbn^o said he ihould vote against the second reading of the bill. Eren if the Colonial Treasurer were to assure the House there was a considerable sum of money available for the purpose in the coffers of the colony, he ihould stiongly piotDst against its expenditure on such a new bubble. Mi ftf tNTELi, said, from tho appearance of the debate, it seemed likely to last till a late hour of the morning, and as ne and other hon members had been summoned to a committee in the morning, he should move tho adjournment of the debnte (Cries of "No, no") •» The question of adjournment being put to the House, the Speaker declared if to be negatived, whereupon Mr. JBAOTEU. called for a di> ision, winch resulted in th» Question being lotM— the ayes he.ng 7 the no*s 25 * * - 1 linn M»id he should vote against the second reading of the Wlb Tlie colony did not require the Panama route, and.if it did it" had not the means of pa ing for it. He (Mr#B J'had listened p-.tiently to the remarks of the hon gentleman wlio was entrusted w.th the mission of the contract to England, > but li id not baen convinced of the advisability of the Panama , route being adopted Ho thought the hon gentleman had, to an eminent degree, exceodad the powers entrusted to him, and tl at the comp ny hud no \"g 1 demand upon the colony. JJp.<sliould vote ugainat the Wll (Cries- of-" Question.") quo lion heing put, th .tthe bill be rend a iecond time, the Spe iker dpilared it ctrrie 1 . whereupon a division was requested wliich resulted in the seccid leading of tlie bill being carried— the ayes being 24, the nor-> 0. Mr ""ri heubert iisked that the Panima contract stand committed for Th mdiy, which was acseded to. The Homo then adjourned at ten minutes pa.*t t.vo ft,m.