GENERAL ASSEMBLY. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday Evening, Sept. 8, 1854.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume XI, Issue 763, 20 October 1854, Page 1 (Supplement)

GENERAL ASSEMBLY. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday Evening, Sept. 8, 1854.

- (Continued from No. 760.) Electoral Rolls. Major Greenwood — In requesting hon. members to •pass the second reading of this Bill without opposition, I take the opportunity of at once stating that I shall he prepared to adopt in Committee any suggestion, or addition to the Bill, to ensure the strictest scrutiny and equitable adjustment of the electoral rolls by the Government, in a spirit of complete and entire justice to every Province, before any alteration of the Representation, in conformity with the provisions of the 47th clause of the Constitution Act, shall be attempted. It has been impossible to obtain the electoral rolls from the Provinces, as they now lie on the table, until this late period of the session, otherwise this Bill could have fce^n at once brought forward. -The-Taranaki roll was

only received this evening. It has been said that men of straw are borne up an these rolls. This Ido not credit, but at any rate, should it be so, the argument would apply equally to all the rolls, and the fact can only be proved by that strict scrutiny on the part of the government, which I desire. "Well then, we can oiily work with the tools we have, which are the Electoral Rolls now \ipon the table, which have been supplied by the various Provincial authorities, by these, hon. members will perceive that the Electors of Auckland amount to 2871, in Wellington 1199, in Nelson 830, in Canterbury 797, in Otago 396. Ido not know the number at New Plymouth. The proper amount of representation then according to the provisions of the 47 clause of the Constitution Act, would as nearly as possible be, for Auckland 20 members, Wellington 9, Nelson 6, Canterbury 6, New Plymouth and Otago 3 each. lam unwilling at this late hour to take up further time, in speaking upon the justice of this bill, it is justice alone that I require, after the strictest scrutiny of the Electoral Rolls, and that justice, I hope the members of this House will be found willing to accord. , - Mr. O'Neill seconded. Mr. Carletox : — Sir, I cannot refrain from expressing my regret that a bill, involving deep questions of polity, should have been brought forward at this late period of the Session, at a time when we find ourselves scarcely able to devote the required attention to those few practical measures which we are endeavourin to complete before the arrival of the steamer from the South. This, sir, is not a question for an afternoon ; although seemingly of a simple nature, it opens up a broader field of enquiry than any motion than has yet been offered to the House. For the hon. and gallant member for the Pensioner Settlements, in moving the second reading of this bill, asks us to affirm a principle ; he requires us t to admit that a numerical basis ought to be the sole and only basis of representation, and consequently, that no interests but those of numbers ought to be represented. He asks us to declare that education, property and ( intelligence, ought not to be specially cared for — that these should be left to shift for themselves, as best they may. He asks us to decide at once upon the native question, which is inextricably mixed up with that of an absolute numerical basis for the representation of the Colony seemingly forgetful of the strangely anomalous position in which New Zealand has been placed by the Constitution Act, which extends the franchise— that highest privilege of the citizen , to the native race, whilst at the same time, by appropriating a large yearly sum of money for native purposes, it draws a distinction between the natives and ourselves — a distinction which replaces them in a state of pupilage. Sir, we know that although many natives have not been registered as yet, that they can be registered, and that they are not unlikely to be registered. At any registration time, the rise of party feeling might induce Europeans to bring them forward, and to prefer their claims. The danger is not imaginary, the members for the Otago Province will not haveforgotton what has already happened there. I myself, shortly prior to the exciting elections of last year in Auckland, was watching the movements of the party to which I was opposed with the greatest anxiety, fearing that they would place those natives whose votes they were likely to command upon the roll, — a procedure which would have necessitated our doing the same ; and thus an overwhelming number would have been registered, placing the Colony in a position like that of Jamaica, of which Lord Greyobserves, "under the law as it now stands, the Negroes must soon acquire a predominent position in the Assembly." Fortunately, both parties had the good sense to abstain from seeking so dangerous an advantage ; but we watched our opponents narrowly, and I do not doubt but they were watching us as closely. Mr. Forsaith :—lt: — It is the first I have heard of it. Mr. Carleton : — We did, at all events : the danger was not i maginary. My hon. and gallant friend also asks the House to decide upon that which in reality, depends upon the future constitution of the other House. I would call attention to a most important point, namely that the question of numerical basis cannot be treated singly, but must be considered simultaneously with another question that is sure to arise. If the other House is to be made elective — if it is to represent anything, we must know what it is to represent, before resolving what this House shall represent. Until that question bo settled, I know not how to treat the present one at all. The hon. and gallant member even asks us, indirectly, to declare that a revision of the constitution shall take place at stated periods ; that the representation shall oscillate with population ; that a kind of sliding scale shall be introduced. For if a numerical basis be the true basis, it must be consistently acted up to ; but this can only be accomplished by perpetual change. I regret that the question should have been raised ; but as it is actually before the House, I shall give it such practical treatment as I am able. There are two phases of the question before us : firstly, whether a numerical basis must be ; secondly, whether it ought to be. My hon. and gallant friend says that it is imperative, by the Constitution Act. I confess myself unable to find anything of the sort in the Act. What I find is this :—: — that was imperative on the Governor, at the outset, when apportioning the representation, to have regard to the number of electors in each district ; for, indeed, this was the only check which, the home authorities could possibly impose upon the Governor ; but I also find that power is given to the Assembly to alter such apportionment, — that is, to destroy the numerical basis. [Hear, hear. Major Greenwood expressed dissent.] I will read the 67th clause of the Act. [The hon. member read the clause.] Major Greenwood: — read on. [The hon. member read the 68th clause.] Mr. Carleton . — Shall I read any more ? There can be no doubt but that Governor Grey broke his instructions, as he never scrupled doing when it suited him ; that he was bound to a numerical basis ; that he distributed the representation most unfairly, and drew the boundaries of the district so at to secure the largest possible amount of Parliamentary influence to the Government ; there is no doubt that the Assembly ought to rectify this, with the least possible delay ; but I have yet to learn that the Assembly is bound to rectify on the principle ot a numerical basis. That restriction was for the Governor, not for the Assembly (hear, hear) ; the Assembly is nowhere bound to do what was left undone by Governor Grey ; the Assembly is at liberty to rectify after its own fashion, provided that it reserve the bill for the signification of Her Majesty's pleasure thereon. We have considered whether a numerical basis must be ; let us now consider whether it ought to be, — whether other interests, as well as those of numbers, have not a fair claim to representation. Beyond a doubt, a merely numerical basis is the simplest rule of guidance ; but there is more than simplicity to be considered. On this subject I will read a remarkable passage from Sismondi — the politcal economist upon whom I pin my faith — the only one who appears to me to have effectually combated the doctrines of the Manchester school. It is from his essay on universal suffrage. | "When the English, still more recently -were occupied in reforming their electoral system, the simple, equal, regular system of the classification in France was put in comparison on, both sides the Channel with the ancient English system, both before and after the Reform Bill, as being more rational, more perfect. It is by use only that it has begun to be perceived that the multiform system of the JBnglish, in spite of its rights being subject to litigation, in spite of the flagrant inequality Detween one citizen and another, between one town and another, connects the national representation with all classes of the nation, and that the French system, in spite of its simplicity and equality, left the population, and especially national intelligence, out of the representation, and ended by exciting universal censure. In the English Parliament are seen seated together, deputies from counties, deputies from towns, deputies from universities ; the first are elected by the freeholders, proprietors in the country, of that kind of property which was formerly looked upon as the best guarantee of independence. The second are elected by the citizens of towns ; in certain towns, the number of electors is so limited that the election is determined by a strict coterie ; some other towns extend the right of election to all the male population, and then it is the work of a pure democracy. Whoever has received his education in one of the universities, and has taken his degrees there, concurs in the election of the deputies for that university. There can be no doubt that all classes and interests have a right to be represented ; there can be no doubt that it would be our duty to use every exertion towards securing their representation in this House — I grant the difficulty — it would be our duty, but for this ; that it is possible to represent those interests elsewhere. Means could be devised for representing them in the other House ; and if they were found, a numerical basis for this House, would at least be no longer absurd. This is why I said that the two questions, concerning this House and the other House, were interlinked ; that we cannot treat one without the other. Sir, Ido not think that property can be represented in this House. I have long endeavoured to devise the means by which that end could be accomplished, but hitherto without success. Property must be cared for in the Legislative Council. But I do perceive the means, and easy means, by which, a representation of mere numbers might be qualified, and a strong infusion of education be brought into this House (a laugh). Well, being only half educated myself, I can venture to say it I will take this opportunity of shewing how easily an educational basis might I be conjoined with a numerical. I would accomplish it,

not by any novel scheme— not by departing from what is English, but by simply extending what is English. In the House of Commons, education is represented by university members. They bear but a very small proportion to the rest ; but that is no reason why university members should not bear a very much larger proportion here. I would establish an university in every province of New Zealand, supported, on purely secular principles, by the State ; endowed, for the maintenance of professorships. Each religious denomination, in each province, might found its own college, in connexion with the university, from private means. Within the walls of these colleges religious instruction would be cared for, the State universities being kept clear from this fertile source of discord, — the university business being confined to examinations and the granting of degrees. Residence, as in Trinity College, Dublin, should be optional. Then, sir, numbers being already represented in this House, additional members might be given representing the various universities, the constituency being formed of graduates. But as it is a work of time to form such a constituency, if keeping of terms be insisted on, for the first few years I would permit any person who pleased, to present himself at once for examination, and if passed, to claim his degree and his vote. At the risk of being plucked, I would myself endeavour to qualify for votes. Sir, I shall detain the Hoase no longer, although on a tempting subject ; for it is to the future representation of the Colony that I have devoted my most anxious attention, for a long while past. « It is a subject that would have taken me many hours to exhaust ; but we are at the end of a hurried Session, and I have therefore been obliged to content myself with indicating some of the shoals on which representation may be wrecked, if we pass such a bill as this without deep and lengthened consideration. Mr. O'Neill regretted that an opposition shculd be raised against that bill, by one who ought to be its warmest supporter. It was clear that the Province of Auckland was not fairly represented, and he only wished that justice should be done, but to deny it that justice, because they had not University men, was absurd. For his own part, he had known some as great asses from Trinity College Dublin, as any one would wish to see. The hon. member for the Bay of Islands, if he held such principles, would be better as a nominee than in the House of Representatives. Mr, Cuxten thought the hon. member for the Pensioner Settlements, had not made himself sufficiently acquainted with the facts. His statistics were entirely incorrect, He had based his argument, not upon the number of electors, but upon the number votes. These were two very different things ; for instance, an Auckland man could vote in 4, 5, or 6 Districts, whereas it was impossible that an Otago man should be able to vote in more than three. By multiplying the number of districts, the number of votes would be increased indefinitely ; but that did not increase the number of electors ; that was not the principle of numerical representation, as laid down in the Consitution Act. He (Mr. Cutten) had been at great pains to obtain statistical accounts, and in his belief, Auckland was fairly represented. There was another thing to be considered, — namely, the qualification. He had ascertained that, a large number of those who were on the Electoral Roll at Auckland had no sufficient qualification, The Auckland Electoral Roll would have to be purged, which would still further reduce the numbers, this had not been done in any province excepting in Otago. Again, there was another defect in the Electoral Roll ; there was no machinery for striking off the names of dead or at sent voters. In Auckland out of 911 there were 160 dead or absent. Major Greenwood : — Upon what authority ? Mr. Cutten : — I have it from the best authority. Major Greenwood : — From the revising officer ? Mr. Cutten : — Yes, from the revising officer who [here the hon. member went into statistical accounts at some length,] had afforded every facility. A great number of the Pensioners had two votes, 250 of them had a double vote. It was very undesirable that a number of men who were under military authority, in fact, to a certain extent at the mercy of their officers, until their term of service expired, should have so many votes. Among the electors there were also soldiers on active service, of the 58th regiment. They swelled the Electoral Roll ; but nothing could be more improper than that they should be allowed to vote. They ought to be struck off ; they were political serfs, they might be called upon to fire upon their fellow citizens, and could not say nay. They were obliged to vote under the command of their officers, or they might be sent away on duty or called into bariacks. Auckland could not found a claim to an increased number of Representatives on the fact of a regiment happening to be quartered there ; it would be most unfair to other provinces. He might have perhaps offended the hon. and gallant member who had introduced the bill, he had heard the hon. and gallant member call the civilians chaw-bacons, but must say for his own part, that he very much preferred a chaw-bacon to a pipe clay. (Laughter.) It would be impossible for him to vote for the second reading of the bill, while the Auckland Electoral Roll was in such a state. At Auckland a principle of universal suffrage had been admitted ; it seemed that almost every male adult had been registered, and no objections taken. The other provinces had acted on a different principle, but were they to suffer for that. Indeed they had done the very opposite, for there were a very large number of persons in the Southern provinces who were qualified to vote, but who had not been registered. A full Southern registration and a cutting down of the Auckland roll would shew a different result to what the hon. and gallant member had produceJ. He (Mr. Cutten) contended that the hon. and gallant member had not brought the proper arguments in support cf his measure, and that his case entirely broke down when he substituted votes for electors. He should move as an amendment that the bill be read that day six months. Mr. Fobsaith said that the plea ui'ged by the supporters of the bill was this, — that the Province of Auckland was not fairly represented in that House, did the hon. member mean to say the dead men he spoke of were still on the list. Mr. Cutten : — Yes. Mr. Foiisaith. The fact of some of these names being still on the list, was only a proof that some electors had died, and others were too fully employed to mark them off, many of them qualified to vote were not on the roll. The province was not fairly represented according to the census ; while even the census which was not correctly taken, placed the Province at a disadvantage. If the principle urged by the hon. member for the Bay of Islands were to be acted on, Auckland would send about three members to that House. That hon. member had accused himself of being only halfeducated ; he (Mr. Forsaith) on the contrary, was of opinion that too much learning had made him mad. That hon. member lived in an atmosphere altogether different to that of every day life. Mr. Cutten knew of four claims for enrolment sent in — the pretended claimants being actually dead at the time. Mr. Picard seconded the amendment. Auckland was asking as many members as Wellington, Nelson, and Canterbury together If any province could afford to be rather under represented it was Auckland, as all its members could attend the Assembly while it remained the seat of government. Mr, Ludlam could not call himself six electors, thought he might have six votes ; if the present system Avere continued for 10 years the Electoral Rolls would be in a state of utter confusion^on account of absentees. He had made a great deal of "enquiry concerning the number of electors in the Auckland province, who had double votes and found it very large. It was from no desire to do injustice to Auckland that he should vote •for the amendment ; the South had already shewn their willingness to do justice in another matter to the North ; but in this instance the North had riot been able to make a case. Mr. Travers observed that the principle of the bill was that some alteration was necessary, he should therefore support the principle of the bill, without pledging himself to details. Dr. Monro would vote for the amendment, he had not much time to consider the bill, but he did not think that the Chartist doctrine of equal Electoral districts, was binding on that House. Mr. Weld said that a mere numerical representation would not guard the interests of the country ; but could it be shown that any province was not fairly represented he was willing to make the required alterations. Mr. J. Wakefield would vote in favour of the principle of the bill, without pledging himself to details. The system of double voting existed in the central province as well as at Auckland. Mr. Hart thought that if they were to rectify the errors of Sir G. Grey, they ought not take up a part of the subject, but the whole. If they moved in the matter, it would be the duty of that House, to rectify the representation of the whole Colony, and for which they hadnotthe necessary time or the requisite information.

Mr. Fitzgehald thought it was desirable the House should have what the province of Auckland wanted, more precisely before them, he could not support the principle of the bill ; the Constitution Act did not say they were to make laws to alter districts ; but they were to alter the districts themselves. If they were to pass such a bill as this, before the Electoral Roll was revised they would be perpetrating Sir G. Grey's system and the evils connected with it. Mr. Gledhill quite agreed with the proposer of the Bill when he stated, he only wished the electors to be fairly represented. It did not matter whether they lived in the North or South. But there were three reasons why he would vote against it. First, it handed' over to the Executive Government powers which ought to be exercised by that house. Second, there was not time for it. And third, because of the.nature of the constituency made up, as it was of dead men, absentees, and soldiers on full pay, (no, no, and hear,) if an officer solicited their votes, how many would venture to refuse ? he would be obliged to oppose the bill. It had been urged that the natives had a right to vote ; true, Auckland had many natives, but how many of them were fit for the franchise. But if, on a careful return, properly revised, Auckland should prove to be entitled to more memberc, he would vote for additional members beinggiven. Mr. Merriman did not see why soldiers who had property should be refused the right to vote. He did not j care what a man was if he could show his qualification j to vote. Mr. Revaxs had only three words to say. The Bill was an electioneering placard. Mr. Wakefield rose. — Mr. Revans that is all I wanted : I have drawn him out. Mr. Wakefield, looking at the question in a political point of view, considered it of considerable importance. Under the present arrangement there are many seats in that House occupied by gentlemen who represent constituencies which vere very small compared with others. The hon. member advocated a federal principle. The object of Parliament, when passing the Constitution Act, had been to prevent this country being brought into the same position as New Soiith Wales where a small minority of the people — a squattooracy — returned the majority of the Representatives. A clause had been placed in the Constitution Act binding the Government to do what was asked from the House that night, but Sir George Grey, with his usual disregard for law, had thrown it overboard. Sir George had left a most remarkable rotten borough in the colony — district of the Wairarapa, where the hon. member who represented it was returned in his partner's parlour by some five or six electors, with the children mustered to make a show at the hon. member's hustings. The hon. member alluded also to other rotten borourghs — among others that of the Wairau, by which Mr. Weld was returned, and Akaroa which returned Mr. Moorhouse — a gentleman who had not yet opened his mouth in the House. This Bill went to doing away with such things and if it were thrown out, in the appeal which would presently be made to the people, the vote would be borne in mind. Mr. Sewell had intended to take no part in the debate. The hon. member had thrown down at the last moment an apple of discord. He had spoken of rotten boroughs ; but perhaps he would recollect — he was sure the hon. member would not deny it — that when they (Messrs. Sewell and Wakefield) wrote their joint letter to the Duke of Newcastle, that letter from which the hon. member had quoted so often in the House — he would remember that they had spoken of the Pensioner Villages as the only rotten boroughs in New Zealand. (Cheers.) But now it was reversed ; the pensioners were now the people. The hon. member had said that Sir George Grey, in apportioning the representation, had not acted in conformity with the Constitution Act. And yet he supported a Bill which gave the power which had been abused by Sir George Grey, to the Governor rather than to the Assembly, in order that he might use it for the purposes of his party. (Gheers.) He regretted that the Bill had been brought in at this late period of the session. The hon. member for the Hutt had spoken of federation and supported the Bill on that principle. He (Mr. Sewell) understood the meaning of the word differently ; he had always supsposed that the principle of federation was that every person should be equally represented ; but this Bill asked for something very differentMajor Greenwood. — Sir, this protracted debate ha 3, contrary to my expectation, lasted to such a late hour, now upwards of an hour and a half after midnight, that I shall be compelled to omit answering the members Avho have spoken, upon many points of their remarks, which I have noted down. I will therefore condense my reply as much as possible, and commence with my hon. friend the member for the Bay of Islands. He regrets that this Bill has been brought in at so late a period of the session. How, I will ask, was it possible to prepare a Bill of this kind without having the various electoral rolls on the table. Those, as he knoAvs, I applied for at the commencement of the former session of this House, but until the last few days have been unable to obtain them. The Taranaki roll only arrived yesterday. Now, my hon. friend says that I ask this House to affirm a principle, — of course I do, — I ask this House to affirm a principle of justice by carrying out the integrity of the Constitution Act, by virtue of which we sit here. But my friend goes on to say that I ask the House to go into questions of education — of native questions — of the Constitution of the other Chamber— and what not. Now, I ask nothing whatever of the kind — I have asked nothing but that the 47th clause of the Constitution Act be carried out. Indeed, my "scheme," as the hon. member terms it, is merely the " scheme " of that Act — no addition of my own ever having been hinted at by me. But what should I say about my hon. friends scheme about colleges, and heaven knows what else — a scheme quite his own, and I think he should immediately set to work and propose a new Constitution Act of his own too, to carry it out. In fact the wholejtirade of the hon. member has been totally beside the question before us. and he might have employed the time he has taken to expound his theory in an equally valuable manner, had he amused himself by blowing soap bubbles or writing " Pages in the History of New Zealand." I have not been arguing new principles, as my hon. friend has, but plain hard facts, written in very plain English in the Constitution Act. The hon. member has, among other remarks, propounded one very remarkable piece of ar- ( gument. He has said, I believe, that •' because Governor Grey committed laches " in not adjusting the elec- ! toral rolls according to the provisions of the Act, that we are not therefore bound to rectify his misdoings — in other words because Sir G. Grey committed injustice to this province by not providing for it proper representation, that therefore we are to perpetuate that injustice, by not taking steps to rectify it. Now I think that if injustice has been done, before we had the power to prevent it, our first act after obtaining the power, should be to rectify it. But I will not detain the House longer by any further observations on my hon. friend's remarks, as they do not apply to the real question, and at once proceed to answer the hon. member for Ocago (Mr. Cutten), who has been pleased to enlighten so fully upon a question regarding which he knows nothing himself. He tells us that in the Auckland electoral rolls we have the names of, 1 do not know how many, dead men. He tells us this, — brings forth not a shadow of proof in support of his allegation, — but states it as a positive fact, picked up by gossiping about in Auckland itself. What a loss to the government that they have not, at an earlier period, employed the invaluable services of the hon. gentleman, to scrutinize all the electoral rolls, with the same degree of tact, talent, and satisfactory result as he has that of Auckland alone. And then he tells us that he has the authority of the revising officer to say that the rolls, signed and sent in by himself as correct, are really not so. Happily the character of the Resident Magistrate and Revising Officer is too well known here to enable us to believe that he would deliberately, and wilfully sign, and send to the Government, false returns and then gossip with Tom, Dick, and Harry regarding their incorrectness. The hon. gentleman talks about my not having made myself acquainted with the facts — here are the facts themselves in the shape of the electoral rolls, furnished by the authorities from every Province, lying on the table. I should be glad to hear what other facts the hon. member has picked up — why, he has been crammed, sir, — crammed by other people who saw his credulity, and who have made a tool of him. Then he talks about the pensioners— what on earth does he know about them ? absolutely nothing. Had he obtained his facts regarding them from the prosperous anil enterprising farmers of this District, he would have-ascer- . tamed that had it not been for them, when the gold* mania took nearly all other labour f»om the colony, he he would now have seen here a wilderness, instead of the smiling cultivation he witnesses around. Ihey would have told him that without the labour of the pensioners they could neither have fenced their farms nor gathered the crops which they have exported in such large quantities, to -the great

advantage to the country, and to themselves, which they have been enabled to do, and that these old soldiers have proved themselves as useful a class of real working settlers as any in New Zealand, not excluding the hon. gentleman himself. And does he know so little of the law of England, as to suppose that a man forfeits his rights as a citizen, when he buckles on the uniform of Her Majesty. I will not waste time to answer his argument, that because a man has served his country faithfully,- for twenty years in all quarters of the globe, that he should therefore be denied a voice in the legislation of his adopted country, when he has acquired a qualification by his own honest industry. lam sure , that no other member of this House holds any such opinion. The hon. gentlemen has placed himself in that enviable position which any one expects to do, when he gets up to expound to others, matters regarding which he is himself profoundly ignorant. The hon. member says that a full Southern registration, and a cutting down of the Auckland roll (right or wrong I presume) would shew a different result from that which I have shewn. The scrutiny which I desire would establish the accuracy of this remark— but this scrutiny the hon. gentleman does not seem disposed to allow, rather preferring the peculiar mode of settling the matter by his own assertions, founded upon no facts whatsoever. Then my hon. friend the member for Nelson (Mr. Picard), to use his own words, says that I ask this house "coolly to swallow" something — swallow what may I ask ? Why to swallow a dose of justice, which I did not think would have been so unpalatable to my hon. friend. And then another hon. member says that a numerical representation would not guard the interests of the country. Of course not, in the opinion o the squattocracy who wish gentlemen representing so many sheep, to overwhelm the voices of Representatives of large constituencies of real working settlers. My hon. friend the member for Christchurch follows, and likens the Pensioner Settlements to a rotten borough. I would ask that hon. gentleman whether he thinks they are as rotten as those who send representatives to this House, by the voices of half a dozen voters, the deficiency of votes being made up by sheep and cattle. He also states that the 41st clause of the Constitution Act does not mean what it says ; (clause quoted) that in fact when it is therein stated that " in determining the number and extent of such electoral districts and the number of members to be elected for each district, regard should be had to the number of electors within the same," it means something else. Now, I can understand plain English, although I have not, I am happy to say, a legal mind, and it will be long, I think, before I shall understand the words " regard shall be had to," to mean ♦• shall be regardless of." The lateness of the hour, sir, will now prevent my longer detention of the House upon/the consideration of the question now before it, but I can only conclude by remarking that from the illiberal manner in which members from the smaller Provinces appear to wish to treat this, the fairest and by far the most important Province of New Zealand, whose revenues alone are within a fraction Of all the others put together, and whose trade exceeds all of them united ; that the sentiments with which I entered this House, gradually become much changed, and from, the staunch adherant to one general system of government that I was when the session commenced, I now hold the opinion that nothing can uphold the just right of Auckland, but determined ultra-Provincialism. The House divided on the motion, Ayes 18 Noes. 4. Bill thrown out. House adjourned till Baturday.

Saturday, Sept. 9. "The Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock. Mr. Wakefield presented a petition from "fifty-four inhabitants «f Kowick, against the present liquor laws, ordered to be received. Mr. Wakefield presented similar petitions from sixty-four inhabitants of Onehunga, and from twelve inhabitants of Panmure; and gave "notice that on a future occasion, he would move a resolution on the subject. The House went into Committee of supply. Customs. Mr. Brown desired that Mr. Young, the Collector of Customs, might be requested to attend, for-the purpo.se of affording information regarding the requirements of the department. — Agreed to. Mr. O'Neill hoped the committee would recollect that, by the proposed reform in the tariff, the expenses of collector would be reduced fully one-half. Mr. Mackay thought that from the way the hon. member spoke and voted, he did not wish the bill to amend the tariff to pass. — Deferred till the arrival of the Collector. Post Office. Postmaster- General £400. Mr. OBrien moved that the item be "struck out. Mr. Fitzgerald moved that the sum be reduced to £100. There was no work to do at present, but it was necessary to have a nominal head at the seat of government. The Postmaster-general ought to be at the seat of government. With respect to the Post Offices he was of opinion that the Provincial Governments shouM. take charge of them ; there was a great want of interProvincial Posts. He would wish the whole revenue of the Post Office to be spent in Provincial Posts. The-Postmaster-General should be instructed to establish any additional inter-Provincial Posts, on a guarantee being given by the Superintendent and Council, to pay any additional expense over the income of such branch posts. Mr. Wakefield supported Mr. O'Brien's motion. A question of principle was involved. Amongst the vast number of jobs, there never was a grosser one than the appointment of Mr. Pefre at the Hutt. The appointment was simply to enable Governor Grey, in England, to say to the noble family of Petre, that he had provided for their relative. The proposal to make the Postmaster of Auckland Postmaster- General would be out of the frying pan into the fire. That gentlemen had rendered great service in his military capacity, bu*t that was no reason for putting him over the other Post Offices. Mr. Fitzgerald would recommend some alteration when they came to discuss the Post Office at Auckland. Dr. Moxro said that the whole construction of the Post Office required reorganization ; if the present officer was not efficient, why not turn him out and get another. He should vote for the item as "he thought the office was required. The Executive Government might require the officer to reside at the seat of government. Mr. !Wakefield complained of the creation of an office for an individual, absolutely disqualified ; the office was, as it now stood, a perfectly useless one. Dr. Monro said it would be a pity if the public service suffered, from having an improper person Major Greenwood would not vote a pension to Col. Hulme or any one ; he thought the present office a gross job. Mr. Gledhill thought it was necessary that the affairs of the Post Office, should centre in some individual. But from what they had all seen at Auckland, they certainly ought not go there to find any one to put the whole post offices on a new system, the post office at Auckland was in a miserable state. Mr. Revans said it was only by such exposures of jobs as they had heard to day, that they could hope to do away with them, the present holder of the office was a man who would take pay without rendering any service. Mr. S swell did not think the voting a sum of money for an office, ought to be considered in connexion with the person who held it. It did appear to him that a Postmaster -General to regulate the Post Offices was required. Mr. Porter said the proposition was to save £200 a year, by making the Postmaster of Auckland Postmas-ter-General. Mr. Hart said the inhabitants of Wellington were quite unaware of any change having taken place in the management of the Post Office, since the appointment of a Postmaster-General ; this was taxing the Colony to" benefit an individual. Mr. J. Wakefield said if it was for an efficient officer, the sum would be voted without a word. The present office was a sinecure. The only way to compel duties to be performed was to strike the sum out of the, estimates. Mr. Kelham said Sir G. Grey had created the affioo to provide for the Treasurer of New Munster. Mr. Weld thought it the duty of the Postmaster-. General, to visit the various Provinces, and report on the Post Offices to the General Government. Ha should vote for the item, not for his friend Mr. Petre, but for a really efficient officer. Major Greexwood could not understand how the. appointment of a flying postmaster -would benefit tha Post Offices, Mr. J^udlam thought that the expense was not neces* sai'v now ; it might be hereafter. The Postmaster at Wellington was the most active in the Colony ; and if there was to be a Postmaster- General, that gentlemen.

should hold the office, as he would be in the centre of the Provinces. I Mr. Brown thought a Postmaster-General was required, and might be of essential service to this most important department. And under other circumstances would have been prepared to support the vote. As however the office was at present a mere job; and without Responsible Government we had no guarantee that a proper officer would be appointed, he had no other alternative but to vote for striking the salary out of the estimates. . j Mr. Cutten thought the office was not required. Mr. Forsaith said there had been enough evidence J adduced to show that the Postmaster-General was not required. Mr. Wakbfield said it was evident that some votes were about to be given on a narrow Provincial view. Mr. Forsaith intended to vote for the abolition of the office. —Amendment negatived. I Mr. Wakefibld moved an amendment, to the effect! that the House had voted the sum for a really efficient officer, and requesting the Governor to appoint one. Mr. Brown would be sorry to see the resolution of the hon. member for the Hutt carried, as it would compel him to put a similar one in other cases. The hon. j member had satisfactorily shewn that the appointment j of Mr Petre was a disgraceful job; but he (Mr. Brown) was sorry to say that there were appointments equally bad; the very next on the estimates was one—namely, Col Hulme as Postmaster at Auckland; however honorable and estimable as a soldier that gentleman was, he was wholly unfitted for the management of the Post Office The appointment was as bad as that of Mr. Petre. And if the hon. member for the Hutt carried bis motion—a similar one would be necessary in this case. • • in Mr. Fitzgerald thought the striking out of the office a perfect cure for the job. Committee divided, Ayes 21, Noes 10. Item struck out. Auckland Post Office, Mr Fitzgerald would move that £900 be voted for this department. He hoped that Colonel Hulme woxild cease to be Post Master at Auckland. The receipts at Auckland were £900. Major Greenwood wished the Post Master to have £250, as he ought to devote the whole of his time to that office. , . Mr. Forsaith would vote for the proposed increase of salary to the Post Master upon the understanding that the office was to be made thoroughly efficient. Mr. Ltjdlam would propose to do with one clerk less as the Post Master ought to give his whole time. Mr. O'Neill supported the retaining of two clerks. Mr! Picard could not depend upon the Government for compelling the office of post master to be held by a person holding no other office. Mt. Ltjdlam said that with a good postmaster, lettersorters could be had at a much lower salary. Mr. Young, in answer to Mr. Fitzgerald, stated that he had ceased to be post master last year. There were then 2 clerks. He was only a nominal officer. Thought the business had increased. Mr. Beown enquired of Mr. Youns? if th" 2nd clerk in the Post Office still belonged to the sSi,li regiment ? —Was not aware. . _ ' The same enquiry was pat to ihe .AmUtoi~iirat'i.v.l. j He also was unaware. • Mr. Brown said the mefscuger m the pon other j ■was employed part of the time at the custom lioumj and ! had a small salary for each. He had been ior many years in the post office, was well qualified for the duties, and ought to give Us whole time to the post office. He would propose that his salary be raised to £100, for •which he would deliver the letters in Town and thereby afford a great convenience to the public. The House divided upon the question that the Post Master's salary T>e increased to £300.—Agreed to. Mr. Forsaith proposed that the chief clerk's salary ■be £200. Mr. Bevaxs objected. Post Office, Auckland £I,loo.—Agreed to. Wellington. Mr. Waketield moved that the salary of PostMaster -at Wellington be £300.—Agreed to. District Post Masters and Letter Carriers. Mr. Ltjdlam moved for £70 for Contingent expenses, 4uxd £20 a-year to the Post Master at the Hutt. Wanganui. Sub-post Master and Contingencies £80.—Agreed to. New Plymouth. Mr. Crompton moved that the salary of the Post be £100.—Agreed to. Mr. Cromptox moved for £50 for two district post —Agreed to. Nelson. Mr. Mackat moved that the salary of Post Master be "Mrl O'Neill moved an amendment that the salary be £200. . Mr. Monro supported the original motion. After some discussion the amount was increased to £300, which was agreed to. Mr. Mackay said the Post Office at Nelson was a -very small building. A new one was required, the expense of which would be £200. He would move that -such sum Tje granted. Mr. Wakefield said that the Post Office appeared Tnore like a sentry box than a post office. —Agreed to. Mr. Weld moved that a sum of £250 be placed on tthe estimates for postal communication with Nelson .and Wellington, via the Wairau. Mr. Macandrbw said that this would be the nucleus •of communication throughout the Middle Island. Major Greenwood said that the receipts from Nelson •were £100. They had voted £470 and now they had asked for £200 more. Mr. Weld was surprised that members should object to £200 being placed on the estimates for a post office. 'This was part of the main post line through $he Middle Island. ;.' Major Greenwood thought this was a most barefaced Mr. Ltjdlam said the overland route was maintained ■through the Northern Island, andXe was prepared to Tote the same amount for the Middle Island. Mr. O'Neill said the North might as well ask for a Toute to the Bay of Islands. * He must object to the Tote. The Committee divided—Ayes 17, Nees 4. The Speaker took the chair and the House adjourned iill 6 o'clock.

Saturday Evening, September 9. [The report of the proceedings on this evening, will T>e found in No. 754, of the • Southern Cross.']

* Monday, Sep. 11th, 1854. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock. Mr. Moobhotjse rose to make an explanation -which he conceived was challenged by some observations had fallen from the hon. member for the Hutt. The hon. member for the Hutt had, in the course of a very long speech, on a previous debate, drawn the attention of the House to the fact that there were rotten boroughs. Among others ho mentioned Akaroa which borough was represented by an hon. member who wasnever heard in the Hou^e Mr. Moorhomc fonh these observations as implying discredit oi» himself, ano ivnv assured the House that his silence resulted from no desire on his part to avoid any part of his duty .is a Representative of the people. That it must be obviou-s the accident of his late arrival would have the effect of preventing his speaking with any usefulness upon many of the questions before the House, for the opinion of the House had already been so loudly expressed by large majorities that he could not, even had he wished | to do so, have hoped to have turned the current of opinion. "When an occasion presented itself of serving his country by speaking on any question he would be found both ready and willing to do so. Not supposing the Assembly would be called, he had gone to Melbourne and was residing there when, he heard of the Assembly being called together ; but, in accordance with, the wish of his constituents, he had come to New Zealand to attend the Assembly at great personal inconvenience to Ijimself. Mr. Wakefield could not tell what was meant. Mr. Moobhouse had alluded to the hon. member for the Hutt. The words he complained of had been used in that House, in a very long speech of the hon. member for the Hutt, in which he had stated that Akaroa ( was a rotten constituency. Mr. Wakefibm) said the question of rotten boroughs iras discussed for 30 years in. the House of Commons. I He considered the complaint as being so frivolous that he would makes no further remark. Mr. Cabi,eton moved that the Pre-emption Land Claimants Bill be referred to a Select Committee. Mr. Lee objected to granting Select Committees on public subjects. Motion agreed to. Mr. Cabxeton would be happy to move that the name of the hon. member for the Northern Division be

added to the Committee. Mr. Wakefield moved a serious of resolutions relating to drunkenness, (which, will be found embodied In the report of a Public Meeting, for the formation of a Temperauce League, reported ia our issue of October

Mr. SeweMi said that the question was surrounded •vrith much difficulty ; but was a. Stting subject fo? legislation.—Agreed to.

Mr. Macandrew moved that the Apprdpriation B ill take precedence of all orders of the day, until the debate upon the Estimates is completed. Mr. Ludlam thought a whole day should be given to the Estimates. Hon. members came there fresh and spent the first two hours talking. Mr. Macandrew withdrew the motion on the understanding that the Estimates were to be considered that day. The House went into Committee of Supply. Canterbury. Mr. Wortley moved that the items stand as follows ; Canterbury Post Master £800 Sub-post, Christchurch 100 " Akaroa 100 " Kaipoi 50 Contingencies 80 530 Otago. Post Master and Contingencies £155. Inter-Provincial. Between Auckland and Wellington via New Plymouth £500.— Agreed to. • Mr. Fitzgerald moved that the sum of £6,000 be placed on the Estimates for the 'Nelson' steamer. Mr. Travels wished to know who was to retain the controlling power over the steamer ; for although they might be willing to take the steamer other parties might object. Mr. Fitzgerald said the money was voted for a specific object and if the Steamer could not be obtained the money would not be exj>ended. Mr. Kelham said the contract ought to be adopted by the agent for the Steamer. Major Greenwood said the question was the proposing a sum of £6,000 for a steamer. If the * Nelson ' could not be obtained, they could get another. Mr. LuDLAM was willing only to vote the money for the ' Nelson.' He wished the subject to be postponed. Mr. Gledhill thought they ought not to postpone the subject, though he should like to know the terms. If Taranaki was only to see the steamer going past, that Province could not be expected to pay for it. Mr. Kelham said the four principle Provinces were each to pay £150 a year. Mr. O'Neill said he was willing that the Provinces should pay for the Steamer, but not the General Government. Mr. Porter thought the Steamer was to run between Nelson and Wellington. Mr. Mackay would read the contract if it were desired. Mr. Wakefield did not know who had any control over the vessel. He asked whether the Provincial Council of Auckland had any control over the vessel. Mr. Lee wished all the papers to be read. Mr. Mackay then read the contract between the agent for the Steamer and the Superintendents of Wellington and Nelson. Mr. Ivelh am said if the contract were transferred, the General Government would have the power over the Steamer. Mr. Cutttcx wished the question to be postponed. Mr. M vckay did not think the Steamer could be had to \ isic Otago unless a further sum of £000 per annum were ■■•'itrd. 2v'3 . M \cv\dh?w said lather than give £500 more for tli- $*eimn to visit Otago^lie would rather do without her. The House divided there being Ayes 18, Noes 10. The sum of £6,000 was agreed to. Customs. Mr. Se"v\ ell moved a resolution to ihe following effect that, according to the Constitution Act, the Governor is bound to lay befere the House the charges for the Collection of Customs. They had no Government responsible for what was to be done, or who could tell them how that Department was to be provided for. Agreed to. Mr. J. Wakefield hoped they would not pass over the subject without asking his Excellency to appoint a Collector of Customs at the Chatham Islands. Things • were in a very bad state there. Spirits and Tobacco being landed at that place and then sent to other parts of New Zealand. — The House agreed to forward the Address. Mr. Macandrew said the Custom House at Otago was nine miles from the town of Dunedin, and he thought if it were removed it would put an end to a great deal of smuggling. He wished an Address to be forwarded to his Excellency on the subject. Mr. Porter said he had just become aware from the the Collector of Customs here that the Customs Department had been handed over to the Colonial Government. He would move that the evidence of the Collector of Customs be received. Mr. Young, the Collector of Customs, stated that the Customs Department had been handed over to the Local Government. He had received letters from the Commissioners of Customs and the Lords of the Treasury on the subject. " Mr. Macanbrew moved the further consideration of the Customs be postponed, and that the Committee proceed to consider the Land Department. — Agreed to. Land Department. Mr. Sewell moved the following resolution : " That the Committee do recommend that the House do present a respectful Address to his Excellency, pointing out for his Excellency's consideration that, by the provisions of the Constitution Act, the costs, .charges, and expenses, incident to the collection, management, and receipt of the Revenue arising from the disposal of the Waste Lands of the Crown, are authorised and required to be paid by the Governor out of such Revenue, and out of the Revenue arising from taxes, duties, rates, and imposts levied under any Act or Acts of the General Assembly : that this House earnestly trusts that his Excellency may be pleased to enforce the utmost efficiency and economy in all departments connected with the administration of the Waste Lands, including the Survey Department. And this House is of opinion that under present circumstances it will greatly conduce to such efficiency and economy if the practical control over those departments, as far as possible, be placed under the Provincial Governments." They might pass a law regulating this department, "but till this was done the Governor had the power of paying the expenses. Mr. Revans seconded the resolution. Mr. Ludlam supported the resolution. He wished the Provincial Governments to have the management of : the Survey Department. Mr. O'Neill thought the resolution was unsatisfactoiy. It did not give the power to the Provinces of altering the rates. Mr. Sewell was willing to make the resolution stronger if it were possible. Mr, O'Neill wished to see the item struck out. Mr. Fitzgerald would propose the Survey Staff should be struck out. The surveys would bs much better done by contract. By that means they would j get the land surveyed at a moderate rate. A good survey had been made at Canterbury at less than one halfpenny per acre. They could put in a clause transferring the auditing accounts of the Land Department to the Provincial Councils. Mr. Sewell would cut the whole item out. Mr. Kbljtam thought the best means of surveying was by em'aact. "?vh. Tkave^s wished that the Survey Staff at Nelson eboiiid \»e increased. Mr. Cvttex thought the management ought to be loft to the Provinces. The Provincial Councils were the best judges. Dr Monro thought the House ought to recommend the Government to increase the salaries of the subordinate officers at Nelson. Mr. Cuttex still thought the Provincial Councils were the best judges . Mr. Fitzgerald said the Governor had not the power to spend the money as he wished. He would simply enunciate the doctrine that the costs of collection were first to be defrayed, and that the House had the power of saying what those expenses should be. Mr. Gledhill stated that the Surveyor at New Plymouth had only £170 a-year, but he worked for himself besides working for the Government. Mr. Sewell withdrew his resolution. Mr. O'Neill said with regard to the Land Purchase Department, the Governor had sent down a message, stating that the land purchases were not to be proceeded with at present. Land Purchase Department. Mr. Kelham wished to call attention to the amount of exertion of the person who filled that office. The salary, he thought was insufficient, and he had it from the individnal himself that the travelling expenses amounted to £200. He would move the salary be increased to £500, and £100 for travelling expenses. Mr. O'Neill thought the salary was quite sufficient at present. Mr. Gledhill would vote an increase of the travelling expenses ; for some years £200 to £300 did not cover the expenses. Mr. Cutten would not vote for an increase of the salary under present ciroumstances, If the expenses of the the public departments were to be increased one after another, there would be nothing left for the Provinces. Major Greenwood would vote for an increase of the salary, but not for an increase of travelling expenses. Mr. Sewell would rather address his Excellency and request him tq place th,e Department in a state of efficiency.

Mr. OBrien would support the amendment. Mr. Pouter thought this was one of the offices which ought to be kept in the highest state of efficiency. The Committee divided.— Ayes 23, Noes 3. The sum of £500 agreed to. Travelling expenses £100 agreed to. Native Secretary £250. Mr. OBrien wished to know the duties of this person. Major Gkeenwood considered the person was required to travel about with the Department. Mr. Fitzgerald considered the staff was if anything too small. . Mr. Cutten said the amount of the cost of this Department was enormous. The sooner the whole of the land, or as much as possible of it, was acquired the better. Dr. Monro moved the sum be £300. Mr. Brown desired further information on the subject. The office was a most important one, and if its efficiency was to be promoted /by an increase of salary he should be most williug to vote for it. Good and skilful management in the purchase of a single block would more than pay for the increase of salary. £300 agreed to. Two District Csmmissioners £500. Dr. Monro said if the Commissioners were for the purchase of land in this Province the expense ought to be born by the Provincial Government. Major Greenwood said that one of the Commissioners was now at Taranaki. Dr. Moxro moved that the consideration of the item be postponed. Item postponed. Mr. Weld moved that Dr. Knight be sent for. Agreed to. The House adjourned till 6 o'clock.

Tuesday, September 12, 1854. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock. Mr. Ludlam moved, that the Committee oi Supplybe instructed to consider the propriety of addressing his Excellency to place £100 on the estimates for Mr. Grimstone. Mr. Merrtman made a similar motion with regard to ' a sum of money for the widow and children of the late Mr. Coates. Mr. Kelham moved, that his Excellency be addressed, requesting him to place a sum of money on the estimates for a light house at Wellington. Mr. Cabletox obtained leave for the Committee on Pre-emptive Land Claims Bill, to send for papers and persons. Mr. Mackay brought up the report of the Special Committee on the expences of the members of the General Assembly. Mr. Kblham brought up the report of the Public Debt Committee, Read and ordered to be printed, and referred to Committee on the estimates. House went into Committee of Supply. Expences of the General Assembly. Mr. Mackay moved, that the chairman report progress. — Carried. Mr. Mackay moved, that the clause left out of the report of the Committee be inserted, viz., that members receive travelling expences, at the ordinary rate of 20s. per day, from the opening of the Assembly till its close. Mr. Sewell had dissented from that part of the report. Mr. Wakefield said, that no special understanding was come to, but a majority of the Committee had agreed to the report. Mr. Sewell was not going to oppose the adoption of the report by the House, as it was to be referred to the Select Committee. Mr. "Wakefield said, there was no resolution which had been agreed to ; the subject would have to be discussed by the House. House went into Committee of Supply. Legislative Council. Clerk, £200. Mr. O'Neill asked, if it was in addition to his present salary in the Resident Magistrate's Court. Mr. "Wakefield was not aware of the fact of his being a clerk in that Court, but the distinction should only be made when a gentleman held two offices under the General Government. — Agreed to. Messenger, 10s. per day. — Agreed to. Clerk of the House of Representatives, £250 per annum. — Agreed to. Mr. Moorhouse moved, that the salary of the Serjeant at Arms be £200. Mr. Wakefield hoped the motion would not be pressed, as it wonld bring matters before the Committee which he was desirous of not mentioning ; if compensation was due to Captain Deck, let it be given, but not included with the salary of Serjeant at Arms. Mr. Sewell considered the Serjeant at Arms a merely ornamental appendage to the House, and the office was well paid at £150 a-year. \ Mr. O'Neill thought the sum of £100 ample remu- j neration : the salary proposed was quite sufficient. ' Mr. Lee said, no regard had been, had to the present holder of the office. After a long discussion, £150 was agreed to. Mr. Sewell moved, that in fixing the salaries of officers and servants of that House, it should be understood that the sums voted were wholly independent of other Government employment.— Agreed to. Expences of Members. Mr. Wakefield moved, that the sum of £3,400 be placed on the estimates for expences of members. Mr. Weld objected to paying members at the rate of £1 per day. j Mr. Sewell thought 10s. per day would enable members to pay their expences. He thought they ought to pay the members of the Legislative Council the same as themselves, and it would amount to a considerable sum, as much as the colony could afford to pay. That sum, with economy, would enable members to pay their expences. Mr. WAKEriELD said, it was quite certain this item would raise disc ission ; the resolution said, that it was in order to afford the people a wide choice. The object was to make it impossible for any member coming there to be out of pocket by that act ; if they were only £10 out of pocket, they would limit the choice of the electors. He wished members to be able to leave their homes, and return to them without being at one penny of expence ; the only representative body which was not paid, was the House of Commons. It was found in America that without paying the members, the country was not properly represented there ; they had 8 dollars a-day, equal to 335., or to double that sum here. Next was Canada ; he was paid himself there his expences at so much per mile, and 10s. per day, equal to 30s. a^day here ; the allowance was in this case, a great deal less than it was in Canada. This would have the effect of teaching the people to qualify themselves for the office of a representative. The annual salaries of members was one of the five points of the Charter which had been asked for by 3,000,000 of Englishmen. There were many items to be considered. The hon. member for Christchurch said, persons of a less opulent class could live at a cheaper rate, but he wished them to live at the same rate as the richest of them. It was very easy for hon. members like the hon. member for the Wairoa, to whom money was no object, to say it was enough. The Provincial Council at Wellington had voted sums for members at a distance. He hoped the House would consider this question with a view to the future; not to the present members of that House. Mr. Macandrew was pledged against paying members, but the arguments brought forward had changed his opinions. But still he would go no further than paying members their actual expence3. Mr. Weld said, they were bound to throw no impediment in the way of gentlemen coming to that House. Mr. Fitzgerald proposed that the sum of 15 shillings be the amount. Both parties would admit that that sum was ample to cover reasonable expences. He did not mean to say he could drink champagne, ride a horss, or dine every day at Bellamy upon it. But 15s. a day to a working man for legislating would be ample, and no working man would grumble at it ; ho would consider himself well paid at that rate. At 20s. per day many men would make money by legislating ; a thing they ought not to do. After the present amendment was disposed of, he would move another ; he could not agree to 20s. per day, Mr. Reyans thought that 10s. per day was ample ; it would not cover his own expences, but he would vote against 205., which would be a sort of bonus for men to get into that House. The object of payment was to preserve the right of the people intact, the right of sending to that House whom they pleased. Mr. Ludlam said, if they adopted that principle, they should pay their expences, or nothing at all ; the country could not expect members to come to any place at a distance without their expences being paid. He would support what he considered a sufficient payment ; he did not think 10s. per day enough for that purpose. He thought the sum expended by single members amounted to about £100 each. He would vote for that sum. Either pay all, or do not pay at all. Mr. Pioard thought that the sum of 10s. was entirely inadequate ; the question was whether a property qualification was to be established, or was that House really to represent all classes of the community. Mr. J. Wakefield said, the argument that 15s. per day, was ample for a man from the working class could not be maintained ; that class would have to abandon some other employment. He should vote for the larger sum that had been proposed,

Mr. Lee supported the larger sum ; he heartily supported it. To give less, would shut ou* many members. Mr. Brown, would only pay those members who lived away from their homes; he would pay those gentlemen 20"". per day. . Mr. Thavehs, would make no difference : it ought to extend to the whole of the Northern members, or he would pay none. Mr. Sewell moved, as an amendment, that the sum be 10s. per day, from the opening of the first, to the close of the second session. Mr. Tkavbus hoped that no division would bo allowed to take place on this question. Mr. O'Neill opposed the principle of paying members, though he would not vote against the motion. He thought the electors would be able to get men of ample talent to represent them in that Assembly without paying them. Council Divided. Ayes 18— Noes 6. Mr. Sewell's amendment negatived. Mr. Fitzgerald moved, that los. per day be paid to all members. Mr. Wakefield said, the hon. member reduced the amount, and proposed to pay all members. Some were living on the spot, who were put to no expence ; members who lived at the seat of Government were put to no expence ; it was entirely at variance with a resolution of the Committee, which was moved by the hon. member himself: — "That members residing within twenty miles of the seat of Government should be paid their actual expences." This would be putting money into the pockets of some of the Auckland members. Chairman reported progress. House adiourned till 6 o'clock.