PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 22, Issue 262, 1 August 1929, Page 10

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

MILITARY SERVICE SYSTEM NO REPEAL OF COMPULSORY CLAUSES i BUDGET TO BE PRESENTED TO NIGHT A long discussion on the military training system of New resulted from the consideration in the House of Representatives yesterday of the Compulsory Military Service Repeal the second reading of which was moved by Mr. W. J. Jordan, , Labour member for Manukau. The discussion began in the late ' afternoon, and was carried on until 12.10 this morning, when a division was taken. The result was that the Bill was defeated jby 46 votes to 21. Ministerial replies to questions were also considered yesterday afternoon. In the Legislative Council the main business was the putting • through all stages of the Rent Restriction Continuance Bill passed '■'by the House of Representatives the previous day. The chief business to-day will be the presentation of the Financial Statement by the Prime Minister (Sir Joseph Ward). The afternoon will again be devoted to private members’ business.

: MAIN HIGHWAYS EXPENSES OF THE PAST ;; NO RELIEF POSSIBLE T ' A question relating to the Main Highways Act was answered by the Minister of Public Works (Hon. E. A. Ransom) in the House of Representatives yesterday. ... Mr. J. Linklater (Manawatu), had asked the Minister whether he would this session amend the Act in order to give relief to small boroughs of under six thousand inhabitants which had put down their main highways in permanent material, and had pointed out that under the present Act nineteen boroughs with a population of under six thousand inhabitants which had put down permanent roads received no assistance whatever from the petrol and motor taxation because the subsidy was based on construction and maintenance. The boroughs quoted were the only local authorities under the Main Highways Act that derived no benefit from the motor-taxes, although they had carried out in a successful manner all their obligations. The Minister replied that the question of retrospective payment to local authorities for work done before the coming into. force of the Highways Act in their district had been before the Government on many occasions. The difficulties which would arise from a recognition of the principle of paying for work which was done in accordance with the decisions of local authorities without any reference to the Highways Board, a body then-not then in existence, and without any anticipation of receiving financial help from motoring or any other special taxation, would be so great that it had not been thought advisable to make such an alteration in the law as Mr. Linklater had suggested. “The fundsi of the Highways Board,” added the Minister, •'are all necessary for the requirements of the present and the future, and to endeavour to make them available for the expenses of the past would prejudice the present satisfactory progress in the improvement of road connections. ine r; inlier states that the local authorities iu question receive n benefit from motor-taxes, but I would point out that, they receive a £2-for-£l subsidy, at the least, on either maintenance expenditure, and also the same subsidy on anyJurther construction which any other local au thority receives.” • SHORT-WEIGHT BREAD? • REPLY BY MINISTER An inquiry as to what steps the Minister of Labour proposed to take to ensure that bread was sold at the correct weight was made by Mr. R. Semple (Wellington East) m the House of Representatives yesterday. He said that a case had been reported in which, out of six loaves weighed, one only came to the stated weight of 21b. In reply, the Hon. W. A. Veitch said that regular inspections were made by the Labour Department’s Inspectors of Weights and Measures on behalf of the Health Department under the Sale of Food and Drugs Act to ensure as far as possible that bread when sold was of correct weight There were, however, exceptions from the standard-weight requirements in the case of certain types of loaves (e.g., the “barracouta”), for which, oh account of-evaporation, an allowance of up to 2oz. in the 21b. loaf had been permitted by the Health Department. As already stated by the Minister of Health, this question was now being reviewed. > OLD AGE PENSIONS EMPIRE RECIPROCITY. I. - 1 ' Negotiations are still in progress between Great Britain and New Zealand for the purpose of arranging reciprocity in regard to the payment of old-age pensions, stated the Minister of Pensions (lion. W. A. Veitch) in reply to Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Avon) in the House of Representatives yesterday. Mr. Veitch said that a communication on the matter had been addressed to the British Government as recently as May last The reopening of negotiations with Australia was at present under consideration. CHARGES DENIED TREATMENT OF PRISONERS. Allegations with regard to the employment of prisoners at National Park Station, contained in a question by Mr. F. Langstone (Waimarino) were given a general denial by the Minister of Defence (Hon. T. M. Wilford) in the House of Representatives yesterday. The allegations were that the prisoners had been worked from 7.30 a.m. to 8 p.m.; had been promised extra food in the shape of butter, cheese and tobacco, for working on Sundays, and had not received those things. Also, that against regulations, trout had been obtained from the stream to provide visiting members of the Prisons Board with a fish menu; that Mr. Glynn had promised the men afternoon tea and cakes if they would work in the rain, and upon one prisoner refusing his tobacco rations were stopped ; that prisoners had been compelled to work for several days in four inches of snow; that prisoners were worked later than the required hour, and that any prisoner having the temerity to ask a. warder the time, of day was threatened jn&h sU kinds c£ aaailtien

RAILWAY MATTERS DELAY TO EXPRESSES REPLIES BY MINISTER Several questions relating to the railways were replied to by the Minister of Railways (Hou. W. B. Taverner) in the House of Representatives yesterday. Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Auckland Suburbs) asked whether the Minister had noticed the frequency with which delays had occurred on North Island Main Trunk express trains due to hot axleboxes, whether such delays had increased in frequency since the introduction of new workshop organisation and time schedules for renair jobs, and whether he would inquire whether the limitation of time on repair jobs imposed by the schedule was a cause of the trouble. The reply of the Minister was that the question of hot boxes was engaging the attention of the Department,_ and it did not appear that any difficulties that had been experienced recently in that connection had been due to the cause® mentioned. The provision of free refreshments for train attendants at Government refreshment rooms was asked for by Mr. J. A. Nash (Palmerston), who mentioned that when the refreshment rooms were leased the lessees invariably granted the concession. \ Replying, the Ministß* regretted that the concessiop desired could not be extended to train attendants. Mr. C. H. Chapman (Wellington North) asJsgd whether the Minister would take steps to close the printing office which was used in connection with his Department and arrange for the printing to be done by the Government Printing Office, as the hours of employees in the Railway Printing Office were 48 per week, as against 44 hours under the Arbitration Court awards. The branch of the Department, said the Minister, had been in operation for a number of years, and was doing work that was required for the Department’s "purposes. It had hitherto been considered that its retention was justified, but the matter would be gone into in the course of a review of the Department’s activities and organisation that was now being undertaken. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY PRESENTED TO GOVERNORGENERAL The Speaker of the House of Representatives (Hon. Sir Charles Statham), accompanied by members of Parliament, presented the Address-in-Reply to His Excellency the Governor-General (Sir Charles Fergusson) yesterday. Sir Charles Statham was accompanied bv the mover of the Address-in-Reply, Mr. W. A. Bodkin (Central Otago) and the seconder (Mr. G. C. Munns (Roskin), the Clerk of the House of Representatives (Mr. E. W. Kane), the Ser-geant-at-Arms (Major H. H. Browne), who bore the Mace, the Prime Minister (Right Hon. Sir Joseph Ward), the Hon. A. J. Stallworthy, and the following members of Parliament: Messrs. J. N. Massey. J. Linklater, C. E. Macmillan. H. S. S. Kyle, A. G. Dickie, H. Holland. J. A. Nash. C. Cajr, F. Langstone, J. O’Brien. H. T. Armstrong. H. G. R. Mason, W.‘ E. Barnard. J. McCombs, P. Fraser. H. R. Jenkins, W. J. Broadfoot, J. S. Fletcher. C. H. Clinkard. R. W. Hawke. J. T. Hogan, and E. F. Healy. "SHODDY” CLOTHING EXCESSIVE CHARGES ALLEGED. Shoddy clothing, allegedly produced bj cheap labour, is being imported into New Zealand, and retailed at quite four times its landed cost, according to Mr. W. H. Field (Otaki), who was replied to by the Minister of Customs in the House of Representatives yesterday. Mr. Field said that trousers landed at 35., plus a small duty, were retailed at 10s. to 15s. per pair. He asked whether something could not be done to prevent such exploitation and to protect local clothing industry against that class of competition. “Inquiries have been made in respect to this matter,” said the Hon. W. B. Taverner, in reply, “but no instances ean be found in which clothing made from material containing ‘shoddy’ has been retailed at prices approximating four times the landed cost of the goods. The rates of duty at present in force on apparel and ready-made clothing (including such goods made from material containing shoddy) are fixed by the Customs Amendment Act, 1927, and cannot be altered without an amendment of the law.” TARIFF MATTERS AN INQUIRY SUGGESTED. Notice of his intention to put a question relating to tariff matters was given by Mr. A. Harris (Waitemata) in the House of Representatives yesterday. He proposes to ask the Minister of Customs whether the scope of the committee which was to inquire into wheat matters would be extended to allow of an inquiry into tariff matters, particularly the secondary industries and those using Mow ZesJajofi ga® Ecedasts,

STATE ADVANCES NEW LOANS AND OLD disparity in rates When a mortgagor in the State Advances Office applies for a new loan in addition to a former one that has not been paid off, the new rate of interest applies only to the new loan, the original loan remaining at the original rate of interest. ■ This assurance was given by the Prime Minister (the Right Hon. Sir Joseph Ward) in the House of Representatives yesterday in reply to a question on the subject by Mr. W. L- Marrin (Raglan). Mr. Martin had asked: (1) Whether it had come, under the notice of the Minister of Finance that when a State Advances Office mortgagor who had an existing loan bearing interest at 4i per cent, applied for a further advance the State Advances Superintendnt in some cases at least cancelled the old rate of interest on the old loan and charged the present 6 per cent, rate on the amount of the old loan as well as on the amount of the new advance; (2) whether the Minister would give instructions that in such cases the mortgagors were to have the benefit of the old rate on the existing amount of the old loan; (3) whether the Minister would make this rule apply to all future payments in respect to all applicants who had had their rates raised. • ~ 4 . X . The Prime Minister said that where any applicant desired to increase the amount of a loan it would be necessary for that applicant to pay the ruling rate of interest on the increase. Mr. A. Harris (Waitemata): For the full amount? The Prime Minister replied that the ruling rate would be charged on the amount of the increase. The rate on the old amount would be unchanged. He went on to say that the profits made by the State Advances Department last year amounted to £30,000 or .£40,000 only, which, considering that it had some £40,000,000 out on loan, was a very small margin of profit. Mr. Martin said that he was not objecting to the increase in the new amount but to the increase on the old amount as well. . The Prime Minister: If the old amount were expiring and the applicant put in an application for a similar amount plus an increased amount, then in all probability he would be dealt with at the current rate of interest. Mr. Martin: That is not the position. I can give you the information. The Prime Minister: I would be glad if you would. We don’t want any misunderstandings. The State Advances Department does not want to treat its clients otherwise than reasonably. , STATE COAL METHODS OF MARKETING Information as to the methods of marketing State coal was sought by Mr. W. E. Barnard (Napier) in a question given notice of in the House of Representatives yesterday. Mr. Barnard proposes to ask -the Minister of Mines whether he noticed a statement published in “The D .minion" in regard to the State coal mines alleging (a) that “the State can sell 18 hundredweight and call it a ton,” and “cannot be prosecuted for short measure; (b) that “it is suspected also the State pays no wharfage on coal”; and (c) hinting at the prospect of the State mines being handed over to private enterprise; and whether the Minister would make a pronouncement of the actual position in respect to (a) and (b), and the intentions of the Government in respect to (c). MAILS BY AIR A request that before he entered into any contract for a Napier-Gisborne mail service he would consider representations to be made by a commercial aviation company now being formed at Napier, was replied to by the PostmasterGeneral (Hon. J. B. Donald) in the House of Representatives yesterday. The Minister stated that the mail service requirements between Gisborne and Napier were well provided for by the twice daily exchange of mails by road The existing contracts (two) did not expire until the end of 1930. There was no departmental proposal at present to 'establish a service between the two places by air, but any representations that might be made by the promoters of the proposed aviation company referred to would have consideration. The request was made by Mr. W. E Barnard (Napier). "CAUSE OF DISTRESS” INQUIRIES BY POLICE. That when information was required as to ability to pay off mortgages in the Repatriation Branch of the State Advances Office the inquiries were entrusted to the police, was a matter dealt with in the House of Representatives yesterday Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Auckland Suburbs), in asking a question on the subject, said the association of the police with the 'matter sometimes caused great distress to mortgagors and their wives, and he asked the -Minister of Finance whether he would take steps to have inquiries made through another channel. The Minister of Finance (Right Hon. Sir Joseph Ward) stated in reply that the information which was from time to time required by the State Advances Department in respect of the ability of defaulting borrowers to pay off moneys advanced in terms of the Repatriation Act could only be satisfactorily obtained through the Commissioner of Police. The State Advances Department had never at any time in the course of the collection of repatriation loan moneys had any desire to cause distress to borrowers, and in all future cases, wherever it was possible to do so, the required information wonldTbe sought from sources other than the Commissioner of Police. In reporting the speech of the Hon. G. M. Thomson (Otago) on the Address-in-Reply in the Legislative Council, the speaker was made to refer to the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research in the matter of the introduction of a moth into New Zealand to destroy gorse and ragwort. What Mr. Thomson stated was that the Cawthron Institute introduced two quite distinct moths, one to attack gorse and the other as an enemy of ragwort. A reference giving credit to the South Canterbury Acclimatisation Society for giving consideration to scientific improvement of fisheries should have read North Canterbury Acclimatisation Society. In the House of Representatives yesterday Mr. H. S. S. Kyle (Riccarton) gave notice to ask the Prime Minister whether any communication had been received from the MacDonald Government intimating its intention to discontinue Empire preference. Mr. W. E. Barnard (Napier) has given notice to ask the Minister of Railways when it is the Esk-dale-Wairon section of the Napier-Gis-borne railway will be completed and when the Waikokohu-Gieborna section of fes mm sailtsaa.

AN OFFICER DISRATED QUESTION IN THE HOUSE CHARGE OF FAVOURITISM The disrating of an officer in the Public Service was the subject of reference in the House of Representatives yesterday. Mr. R. McKeen (Wellington South) had asked the Minister of Labour whether it was a fact that an officer in charge of the Wellington District Office of the Labour Department was recently disrated for committing a grave breach of duty, and that the same officer was given minor duties to perform in the same office at the same salary (£470) which he had previous to being disrated. The Hon. W. A. Veitch replied that the officer in question was disrated by the Public Service Commissioner for certain irregularities and his salary was reduced. Mr. E. J. Howard (Christchurch South) declared that the Minister had given a reply which might be expected to have come from a Minister who had been seventy years in office. It was a most unsatisfactory reply. Apparently the Minister had hot gone into the facts of the case. He alleged that favouritism had been shown. The Minister said he had investigated the position. The reply was the result of his own conclusions and not those of the Department. Mr. McKeen: Do you submit that? The Minister: I am stating the facts. Mr. McKeen: Is that what you submit? The Minister: I am not under crossexamination. . Mr. Howard: You are. You are a responsible Minister. The Minister: I am entitled to defend myself against an accusation that I did not state the position fairly. A member: What is your attitude? The Minister: I am taking up the proper attitude towards the charges. Mr. McKeen: What were the charges? The Minister: If you do not know your own charges it is not worth my while going any further. However. I promise that the fresh accusations will be investigated.. A general charge of favouritism has been made. I invite members to give specificinstances. Mr. Howard: You know all about it! The Minister:' If. you can bring any cases under my notice I will be glad to have an investigation made. Mr. McKeen: You will hear more about this. The Minister: No doubt. It is my business to know all there is to be known about the case. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL RENT RESTRICTION BILL The Legislative Council sat yesterday afternoon. , The Wellington City Mission (Church of England) BiU, (Hon. T. 8. Weston), was put through its final stages and passed. . —, The Hon. G. M. Thomson's Education Amendment Bill was introduced and read a first time. „ In moving the second reading of the Rent Restriction Continuance Bill, the Leader of the Council (the Hon. 1. K. Sidey) explained that the measure proposed io extend the power whereby a tenant could apply to a Magistrate for an extension of the law relating to protection in the matter of rents. The Bill did not apply to any dwelling built later than November, 1920, or on which the rent did not exceed £2 a week. He mentioned that in 1927 the measure had been rejected by one vote, but keen passed on, it being provided that the landlord could regain possession if he could show that he had entered into a bona-fide contract to sell. In his opinion since distress still prevailed m the community, there was justification for the legislation to be extended. There was special need for it in Wellington Mr Sidey pointed out that out of -70 applications under the Act, 174 had been made in Wellington. Out of the 210, only 11 had come before the Court. In two cases onlv had the rent been reduced. The Hon. Sir Frederick Lang (Auckland) said the very fact of having such an Act on the Statute Book would do an enormous amount of ha™ ln Kl , JT stricting private enterprise in the building of houses. There was very much less need for such a Bill now than there was A. S. Malcolm (Southland) pointed out that the Rent Restriction Act had been brought in as an experiment. A fatal one, he said, for it had the effect of arresting building. The shortage of houses had continued ever since, and he largely amed the Bill for that. It was not the landlord’s interest, but the tenant’s interest, that concerned him. Lt they were going to legislate for rent restriction. why then should it not be made universal? „ In the opinion of the Hon.. IV. Earnshaw, the Government’s action in regard to this question was a disappointment. He stated that though he detested every incidence in the Bill, nevertheless he would vote with the Government on the matter. The Hon. J. Barr (Canterbury) contended that the building of houses had not been discouraged. He considered the time was unsuitable for the discontinuance of the legislation. After the Hon. T. K. Sidey had replied to the various speakers, the< Bill was read a third time and passed Vfrith—out amendment.

Captive Birds. In moving the second reading of the Captive Birds Shooting Prohibition Bill, the Hon. G. M. Thomson (Otago) said that we should be following a good example if this Bill were passed. It was law in England, in America, and in France. Shooting a bird from a trap seemed to the speaker to be a very mean kind of thing. He believed we were all humanitarian in our desires, and it would be a gracious act were the Bill to be passed. The Hon. W. W. Snodgrass (Nelson) supported the previous speaker’s remarks and sincerely hoped the Bill would become law. . The Bill, was read a second tune, put through its final stages and passed. The Christ’s College (Canterbury) Amendment Bill (the Hon. G. S. Smith, Canterbury), was put through its final stages and passed. The Council rose at 4.10 p.m.

military service REPEAL OF LEGISLATION bill before house a LONG DISCUSSION “Tliis is not a bill to abolish military training, but to abolish the compulsory clauses of th® Military Service Act, and that will not to any great extent weaken the forces, said Mr. W. J. Jordan, Labour member for Manukau, in moving in the House of Representatives yesterday the second reading of the Compulsory Military Service Repeal Bill. Moving the second reading of the measure. 8 Mr. Jordan said that a large sum of money was being spent on the pr“ent system of defence. Recourse had taken to the Courts, and since the commencement of the scheme 40,0 voung men had been prosecuted for not rendenng military service. Only 62 per cent he said, were rendering service. There were a great number exempted. Why not make the system voluntary m time of peace? he asked We were spending many thousands of pounds on the League of Nations, to which we looked to render service. It we were to continue to accord the League our support we could not continue compulsory military training. The question was big enough to submit to the people. (Heat, hear.) He believed that under a voluntary system the number of trainees would equal that of to-day, and that there would be a new spirit existent. As it was, young men gave up training at the age of 21 years because they did not like the system. Under a proper system an ablebodied people would be developed, it the Bill was thrown out, the time was coming when the Government itself would have to draft a Bill to do away with compulsion in military training. The country would demand a decision. He hoped the Bill would be carried as the matter was not a party one. Sometliing Necessary. Mr W. A. Bodkin (Central Otago) said he doubted if the State was getting value for its money. However, the system was not only providing a nucleus of men for war, but it was the only efficient means in the country of securing physical training. He thought the House would be foolish in repealing the system without providing a substitute. It was important that the State should have a proper regard for the building up of its manhood. A voluntary service would attract only the physically fit. The system was justifying itself if it improved the physique of the young men of the country. Some revision, however, was necessary. There had been exceptions, but they were infinitesimal—the majority gave service. He thought that the expenditure was giving a good return if five per cent, of the community benefited. Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) said he was surprised to hear the mover of the Bill say that the matter was not a party one. He had thought it was a main plank in the platform of the extreme Labour Party. Mr. W. E. Parry (Auckland Central): What party? Mr. Lysnar: The extreme Labour Party. Mr. Parry: Which is the other Labour Party? Mr. Speaker; Order! There is too much interruption. Mr. Lysnar was going on to say that there were two classes of Labour Party when he was interrupted by Mr. Speaker, and thereupon proceeded upon a different line. He said that in his opinion it was an admirable thing that ' young men should have the benefit of such physical training before entering trade or business. He thought, however, that after that stage the training should be relaxed. The system was for the purpose of educating young men, and keeping them from channels that might lead to dissipation. He considered the compulsory clauses should not be repealed. He said the principle advocated was in the heart of the Labour Party, and in their platform, (Labour laughter.).

Mr. Lysnar: “When the Bill goes to the vote it will be found Labour will be by themselves, I do not think the powers that be will agree to such a proposal as this.” He asserted 1 that the slackers were the ones who would benefit by the Bill—those men who went round to theatres, picture shows, and cabarets. (Laughter.) “Let them go to drill and learn how to obey orders,” said Mr. Lysnar. “I think it would be wise to take the vote of the House on the matter. This legislation is no good. It will undermine our constitution.” Mr.'Lysnar said that cadets, in the period from 14 to 18 years, should be able to obtain a certificate of ability exempting him from farther military service. After that period the service should be voluntary. “Too Extreme.” Colonel T. W. McDonald (Wairarapa) said the Bill was too extreme, because it sought to abolish both voluntary and compulsory training. If tho Bill were carried it would do away with every rifle club in the Dominion, aud if for that reason alone he would oppose the Bill. Also, he could not countenance abolishing the training of cadets at secondary schools. There was much that could and should be done in an overhaul of the Defence Act. As the Act was today it allowed an extravagant waste of public money. He would like to see some of the compulsory clauses done away with. He would be in the same lobby as the member who had moved the Bill if proper proposals ere put before the House. “And I would like to see the member for Mid-Canterbnrv in the other lobby,” he said. “He is always in the wrong lobby. I have never seen him in ‘the right lobby.” Colonel McDonald concluded by stating that the compulsory clauses should be abolished so far as the rank and file were concerned. Mr. \V. E. Barnard (Napier) said the question was greater than any party. He did not believe that preparation for war assured peace. “Are we going to answer the call of the Mother Country, or are we not?” asked Mr. T. Makitanara (Southern Maori). He proceeded to talk rapidly on principles of war and peace. He quoted loudly and fearsomely a proverb in Maori.

A Reform Member: Serve them right. (Laughter.) Mr. Makitanara went on to deal with Biblical incidents and characters, and was subject to constant interjection. Questioned by Mr. Speaker as to the relevancy of his remarks, Mr. Makitanara said he was of opinion that compulsory training was necessary.

Upon interjections continuing, Mr. Speaker rose. “I must again remind members that honourable members speak ing in this House are entitled to be heard without interruption. If it continues I will have to deal with members persisting in interrupting. I trust I will not have to remind the House again.” Members: Hear, hear. Mr. H. M. Rushworth (Bay of Islands) said he believed the Labour Party would in the future be the most military party in the Dominion. It would be forced on them. He said he considered that the defence of the Dominion lay in the air—not in flying from place to place in, Moth ’planes, but something far more—-namely, in flying boats and seaplanes. He recalled war experiences, and said that in a tight corner he would rather have one volunteer than ten pressed men. He resented any suggestion of party with regard to the Bill. If the Bill were passed the safety of the Dominion and Empire would not be imperilled. He did not think the Bill would go through. “Members all over the House have told ine it is dangerous. I do not care. I will vote for the Bill. (Applause.) . . . „ , “We have heard in this House croakin.- voices against young men because bare tha courage Uw eoavw-

tions,” said Mr. C. L. Carr (Timaru) in opening. “All the ravens croak in chorus over the rotting carcass.” He proceeded to denounce war, and spoke in support of exemption from military service on religious grounds. He said there were members in the House who ought to be placed in a war museum —they ought to be locked up for their attitude on the present question. We should tell ourselves, he said, that the wars of Britain had ended Mr. J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn): Bat Coue-ism has failed. Mi. Carr said he thought the development of civil aviation in New Zealand Would be the finest safeguard. Prime Minister’s Plea. “My opinion regarding this debate is that it will have done a great amount of good,” said the Prime Minister (Kt. Hon. Sir Joseph Ward). “It has given an opportunity to members to express their views on a matter that has engaged the attention of the country for a long time. I rise now to say I think the matter might well be allowed to rest where it is. It was not possible to have both systems of defence in operation in New Zealand at the same time, said the Prime Minister. To introduce a system of aerial defence and to maintain the present land defence system would entail a cost the country could not stand. Aerial defence must wait. The present system was costing the country in round figures £500,000 a year, and to introduce a system of aerial defence would cost another £500,000. As a matter of commonsense the Government said: “Let us wait until we have made up our mind about aerial defence. If we are going in for aerial defence, let us get rid of the present system first” “This country is not going to vote on the question of aerial defence during this session, and possibly not during the next session,” continued the Prime Minister. “It is too costly, and you cannot get rid of the present system in one or two months. You must, however, get rid of the old system before you take over the new. To those enthusiasts who are advocating aviation development, I. reply that they should exercise a little .care. Those in New Zealand who are urging the provision of landing places and facilities for being educated in flying will find the personal expenses so great that they will not be able to stand it. Aviation has come to stay, and is bound to develop, but speaking for the present and the immediate future I say advisedly to the enthusiasts to take care as they will find the expenses more costly than they expect. Mr. C. L. Carr (Timaru) : Cheaper than dreadnoughts. The Prime Minister: “I must say that is a wonderfully clever interjection. Continuing, the Prime Minister said the mover of the second reading had achieved his purpose in eliciting the opinion of members of the House. He would find there were many against the proposal, and he would not gain anything by going to a division. Mr. J. McCombs (Lyttelton) : Only opponents can force a division. The Prime Minister: I suggest to the mover that he has gained what he wanted. He wanted to ascertain the views of members and he has gained that. Mr. Jordan: Will you allow the Bill to proceed beyond this stage? The Prime Minister : Certainly nori A Labour voice: You’ve got the Tories Wl Mrf Jordan: Well, I have no alternative. I shall not call for a division unless the ruling goes against us. Government’s Attitude. Continuing, the Prime Minister said the Government was not at present moving for an alteration in the defence system. He did not know what the member for Timaru thought would happen when he expressed the Hope that the armies of the world would disband, but Sir Joseph said he hoped nothing like that would happen while he was head of the Government, because a large number of men would be thrown out of employment. Mr H. E. Holland (Leader of the Labour Party) : But this Bill does not touch that. _ . The Prime Minister: I wns referring to the statement of the member for Timaru that all the armies of. the world should be disbanded. Millions involved in the occupation of being members of an army would be thrown out of work, and unemployment would be increased. Mr. W. E. Barnard (Napier) : What a condemnation of the present system. The Prime Minister was interrupted by the supper adjournment, and did not supplement his remarks after the resumptl°The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr. H E. Holland) expressed the hope that the House would agree to the second reading and allow the' Bill to go through its committee stages. Mr. Holland said some members who pledged themselves on the hustings against military traniing were taking up a different attitude now. He would not say that a conscript would lay down to the enemy, but a man—or a nation—who believed he was standing in defence of a principle would put up a different fight. Mr. Holland deplored that boys of lofty character should be dragged before the Courts, told they were only fit to.clean latrines, and deprived of their civil rights. He considered that objectors should not be penalised for having worthy views differing with the law of militarism, and he considered the compulsory element should be wiped out altogether. The biggest fight he had taken part in in this country was that in which he had endeavoured to save the wives and children of the men away at the front from being exploited Compulsory militarism would tend to develop greater warfare than in the Great War. Mr. J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn) reminded the House that the question was one of the need of compulsory training, not of war. He believed in compulsory training so long as it was necessary.for the country, and he would vote against the Bill. He twitted the Labour Party, stating that they had criticised the Government for wasting time, but that was what the Labour Party themselves were doing with regard to the Bill. Mr. F. Waite (Clutha) said the fact that men from every home would be ready for service was sufficient insurance against war. . Mr. W. E. Barnard (Napier) : Will the hon. member leave the decision to the direct vote of the people? Proceeding, Mr. Waite said no form of flying machines to-day could carry out all military duties. He said that conscript armies had proved as efficient as non-conscript armies. This country should spend more money on gas-masks, because if gas was to be used in the next war we were ill-equipped. The State must not give up the power to call up men when the Empire was threatened. Mr. R. Semple (Wellington East) said the number of convictions in court against trainees showed that the system, was not popular. Before the session was over, whether the Bill was passed or not, he hoped that the Government, together with the Opposition and the Labour Party, “would consider seriously their share towards creating peace.” Mr. C. H. Clinkard (Rotorua) said he stood absolutely for the freedom of the individual. He was going to vote against the Bill in the meantime, as until proper : provision was made with regard to the I system, no good would be accomplished by tampering with the Bill before the I House. Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Auckland Suburbs) said that such was the outcry against military training that the grant on the Estimates was kept within rather small limits, which meant that fewer were trained, and the ones who were not physically fit were the ones who were not trained. Regarding religion, the people of this country would not stand for the religious persecution that was going on today. Compulsory military training was based on an sense of fear. Mr. D. McDougall (Mataura) said conscription Ind not meant compulsion in his district, because men had pulled the strings. He intended tn vote for the Bill. He believed that if the matter went to the people there would be a strong vote against compulsion. I “It is all very well for the hon. memher for Gisborne to talk about conscription.” he said. “During the war he held up his wool, and there was not n doggery in Gisborne that did not have a bale of I wool stuck in it.” (Laughter.) “Were rim boa. member aoi & mw j

member I would not bother to rise,” said Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) in reply. “There is not a scintilla of truth in the statement that I held up wool during the war. It was a long time after the war that I held up my wool.” Mr. P. Fraser (Wellington Central) said that the United Party had stolen the thunder of the Reform Party in regard to anti-Labour propaganda. Mr. J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn) : Do you justify the attack by the Soviet on China? '

Mr. Fraser: “I am just as well acquainted with contemporary history as you are. You need not worry yourself about that. I was not referring to China. I was referring to a little political incident whereby the Reform Party’s most reactionary, most libellous, and most dis. gusting propaganda was lifted holus bolus by the United Party at last election. The older members of the United Party did not take it seriously; they recognised the futility and foolishness of the whole thing. The younger members swallowed it.” He asked if our military machinery was up-to-date, and whether it could do the job if put to the test? Also, would compulsory service have any place at all in an efficient military system? The people were entitled to a proper investigation. he said. Mr. H. R. Jenkins (Parnell) said he believed that if the question were put to the people 90 per cent, would be again-t compulsory training. He intended to v<- 1 ' for the Bill.

Mr. G. C. Munns (Roskill) said the huge amount of money we were spending to-day on the military system was not economical and not sound. If the Old Country could train an army in ten weeks, why could not we, especial! if our trainees after ten years had to be trained again In time of war? - He was going to vote for the Bill. In reply. Mr. Jordan said he had previously supported rifle clubs in the Heuse. Replying to the statement of the hon. member for Gisborne, that the Bill was undermining the Act. Mr. Jordan asked why the Labour Party should be accused of supporting a measure not for the welfare of the country. “It is a pity,” he said, “that the hon. member does not build a monument and get on top of it and say, ‘I alone am loyal, to myself first and to myself second.’” (Laughter.). He said that it was not intended to abolish the defence system, but only the compulsion. A Division Taken. The motion for second reading was defeated by 46 votes to 21. The division list was as follows: — Ayes (21) : Armstrong, Barnard, Carr, Chapman, Fraser, Hawke, H. E. Holland, Howard, Jenkins, Jordan, Langstone. McCombs, McDougall, McKeen. Martin, Mason, Munns, O’Brien, Parry. Savage, Semple. Noes (46) : Ansell, Atmore, Bitchener, Black, Bodkin, Broadfoot, Campbell. Clinkard, Coates, Cobbe, Dickie, Donald. Field, Fletcher, Forbes. Hall. Hamilton. Harris, Healv,' Hogan. H. Holland, Jones, Kyle, Linklater, Lysnar, McDonald, Macmillan, Makitanara, Massey, Murdoch, Nash, Ngata. Polson, Ransom. Samuel, Smith, Stall worthy, Sykes, Taverner, Veitch. Waite, Ward. Wilkinson, Williams, Wright, Young. Pairs: Against, Wilford and Stewart: for, Sullivan and Rushworth.