PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 21, Issue 259, 2 August 1928, Page 10

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

NEW ISLANDS' MOTOR SHIP

BIBLE-READING IN SCHOOLS

Many matters of varying importance came under review in the House of Representatives yesterday, the principal subject dealt with being the Religious Exercises in Schools Bill, the second reading of which occupied the House in the evening. During the afternoon there was full debate on the running of the new Government motor vessel, Maui Pomare, in the Islands .trade, the opinion being expressed that the vessel would satisfactorily meet requirements. A further instalment of Ministerial replies to questions was circulated, among the matters debated being Government representation on control boards. The only Government measure introduced was the Post Office Bill, which consolidates previous statutes dealing with the Post and Telegraph department. Several local and private members’ Bills were introduced, including a Licensing Amendment Bill (Mr. H. G. R. Mason), an Education Amendment Bill (Mr. H. E. Holland), an Engineers’ Registration Bill, and the Johnsonville and Makara Gas Supply Bill (Mr. W. H. Field). Notice of intention to introduce the New Plymouth Borough Council Empowering Bill, was given by Mr. C. E. Bellringer. *

EMPIRE NATIONALITY 'AN IMPORTANT MEASURE ' LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL . DEBATE Consideration of the British'Nationality and Status of Aliens (in New Zealand) Bill occupied-the attention of the Legislative Council for more than two hours yesterday.- . In moving the second reading of the Bill, the Leader of the Council (Right Hon. Sir Frauds Bell) said the measure incorporated the provisions of Part II of the Imperial Act of 191-1. It was a measure of far-reaching importance. The council was now invited to deal with a Bill creating . a . British subject,. having that' right throughout the Empire, and conceding the same right to all parts of the Empire. Sir Francis Bell outlined very fully the history of the naturalisation law of Britain and the Empire, particularly in its relation to the Dominion. He also fully explained the effect of the naturalisation and im nigration restric- ' tion legislation, of - New Zealand. The Imperial Act of 1914 created a citizenship of the Empire for the first time. It was the work of great jurists defining who were British subjects and who were aliens. ■

Sir-Francis Bell emphasised the importance .of section 10 saving the powers of the General Assembly to differentiate between different classes of subjects. In exercise of the powers of the'Legislature of New Zealand recognised in section 26 of the Imperial Act, in its application to New Zealand, it was expressly provided - that nothing in • the Imperial Acts or this Act should in any manner repeal, limit or affect the provisions of . the Immigration Restriction Act. 1908, or of any Act hitherto passed or that may hereafter be passed, relating to electoral rights and distinguishing between classes of British subjects in relation, to such rights. ■ The Hon. Sir James Allen said he was entirely in. favour of the provisions of the measure. He could only say, “Better late than never.” We had had the opportunity to adopt it' in 1923, and could have done then what was proposed to-day in .regard to electoral rights and immigration restriction. .This loyal country was the very last of the Dominions to adopt this Empire nationality provision. It was doing so 21 years after a recommendation to the same effect was passed by the Imperial Conference. He would like to know whether the Government had done anything in regard to the proposals for the codification of international law regarding nationality. The debate was adjourned on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir Robert Stout.

, DOMINION FISHERIES A SURVEY PROBLEM In the Legislative Council yesterday afternoon, the Hon. G. M. Thomson moved: That, in the opinion of the Council, the vessels of the New Zealand Navy should be provided with sonic depthfinders. so that on their periodical cruises in New Zealand waters they could undertake a series of soundings, and thus aid in obtaining a preliminary survey of the sea in the interests of the fishing industry, «ud in furtherance of the knowledge which has been secured up to the present time. Mr. Thomson said that his object was to interest, if possible, the naval authorities in scientific work for the advancement of this country. They could assist very materially in many ways, and he believed they would do so as time went on. Already the naval ships were doing certain work of great value to the fisheries of the Dominion. Whenever they went on a cruise they took the temperature of the sea water every few hours. The Fisheries Department hoped that samples of the water would also be taken, as data regarding the salinity and temperature of the sea waters was of great value. Mr. Thomson explained in detail the use of the sonic depth-finder, by means of which valuable information regarding the depths of water around the Dominion could be obtained.

In seconding the motion, the Hon. G. J. Garland, said that records of depths and the “sets” of currents of great value to navigators could be obtained by the use of sonie depth-finders. The Leader of the Council (Right Hon. Sir Francis Bell) said that as ActingMinister of Marine he bad consulted the naval authorities and the chief inspector of fisheries in regard to the matter. The former said the sonic depth-finding apparatus was complicated and expensive, and required highly-qualified men for its operation. The main difficulty was that the naval shins were engaged on such duties as made it undesirable for them to undertake surveying work except on a defined basis. The chief inspector of fisheries said that the Dominion fisheries seldom operated beyond 60 fathoms, and the sonie annarattis was only useful in depths far beyond that. The motion was withdrawn. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL PROGRESS ON BILLS In the Legislative Council yesterday, the Hon. G. M.. Thomson gave notice, of his intention to introduce the Education Amendment Act, 1928. The Imprest Supply Bill (No. 2) was received from the House of Representa tires, put through all its stages, and 'Captive Birds Shooting Prohibi tion Bill, 1928. introduced by Mr. G. M Thomson, was read a first time, and set down for second reading on Wednesday. August. 8..

CONTROL BOARDS GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATION A CHANGE ADVOCATED Strong exception to. Government representation on control boards was taken <by speakers •in the House of Representatives yesterday. . Discussion arose over the following reply to a question by Mr. A. Bell (Bay of Islands) given by the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. O. J. Hawken) : “In view of the fact that control boards are vested with wide powers of contr- 1 over the produce owned by all interests, proprietary as well as co-operative, and having regard to the influence which the exercise of these powers can exert upon the welfare of the producers and the consumers of the Dominion, the Government are of opinion that it is only equitable that all interests immediately concerned and also the Government should have due representation on the boards.” Mr. J. A. Nash (Palmerston) said that if the Government had representatives on the control boards surely they were to represent the Government. It had been stated that these nominees had voted against the views of the Government, and if that were the case it was time that some action was taken to replace them. The matter was a very serious one, and should receive the earnest consideration of the Minister of Agriculture. It was to be expected that the representatives of the Government would do what was required of them by the Government. The Minister of Agriculture: That is not 'our view of it at all. Mr. Nash: Well, if it is not, will the Minister state why they are there, and why he has said the Government should have representation on the boards? If the Government must have representatives on the boards, surely they would be there for a specific reason. Why not let the producers themselves elect their own boards?

A member: That would be the proper thing. Mr. Nash: I feel very strongly about this question. I never hesitate to express my views on it and never shall. A member: What about the merchants’ representation ? Mr. Nash: They are there according to the Act. "Do you think' they should be removed?” asked another member. , Mr. Nash: No. I think the mercantile world should be represented. But that is not the point I am raising. ‘’Hampering the Fanners.” Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) characterised the Minister’s reply as being very unsatisfactory. “I am sorry to say,” said Mr. Lysnar, “that it is characteristic of him, and, I regret to say, of the Government, too. I fail to see how it can possibly be contended that the merchants are interested in the marketing of the farmers’ produce. If they put a representative of the freezing works on the board there might be some logic in it.” A voice: What about the chairman ? Mr. Lysnar:. The member knows the weakness of the chairman as well as I do. (Laughter.) There is not the slightest justification for the appointment of a mercantile representative except to thwart aud hamper the farmers. The Government has no right to appoint nominees unless they are financially interested.”

Mr. Nash: Do you think the Meat Board is doing good work? (Laughter.) Mr. Lysnar: The Government’s representatives have ruined the Dairy Control Board. Every dairy farmer in New Zealand knows that;

A LICENSING BILL “NON-CONTENTIOUS MEASURE 1 ’ Some amusement was caused in the House of Representatives.yesterday when Mr. H. G. R. Mason (Eden) introduced a Licensing Amendment Bill, which he described as being of a non-contentious nature. “Is it three years or six years?” asked the Prime Minister (Right Hon. J. G. Crates) laughingly. Mr. '"ason: It has nothing to do with three years or six years. Mr. Coates: We will try to help you. Mr. Mason: Thanks very much. An explanation of the contents of the Bill by Mr. Mason showed that he was not attempting to deal with, the issues which have loomed so largely in licensing legislation. He said that under the existing law wine growers were allowed to sell their vintages, but they , were not allowed to co-operate for marketing their goods. The object of the Bill was to remove this apparent disability. RAILWAY BUNK READING LIGHTS CONSIDERABLE EXPENDITURE INVOLVED “The existing lighting equipment, on the ordinary sleeping cars is not sufficient to carry bunk reading lights,” said the Minister of Railways, in the House of Re r " ••entatives yesterd.-iv in reply to a suggestion by Mr. A. M. Samuel (Ohinemuri). •‘Considerable expenditure,” added Mr. Coates,” would be entailed in the necessary wiring and provision of a more •er p, tl dynamo and new batteries, an.l !: is not eoi’' Uered that the circiim■fi th warrant this expenditure. It is the intention of the Department to provide reading-lights in any uew sleepers constructed, similai to the bunk-lights in the existing de luxe sleepers.”

BIBLE IN SCHOOLS BILL'S SECOND READING STRONG OPPOSITION FATE OF MEASURE The fate of the Religious Excrrises in Schools Bill vas being decided in the House of Representatives last night when the measure came up for second reading. The opponents of the Bill expected to secure the defeat of the second reading by • two votes. Tn moving the second reading of the Bill Sir H- Holland (Christchurch North) said that it was proposed to have the instruction outlined m the measure made available at all public primary, secondary, and technical schools where there was no other form of religious instruction The school teachers and children would be “as free as the air we breathe to participate in the exercises or to absent themselves from the building. The Bill which was now entirely acceptable to the Education -Department, adequately protected the Nelson system, which at the present day had reached only five per cent, of the children attending schools. The reason for exempting the Native schools was to anticipate any possible question that might be raised of an appropriation being involved through the State having to sunnly the Native schools with the books required. Therefore, the promoters had been reluctantly compelled to make that exclusion. Sir. Holland expressed his thanks to those who had supported his efforts last year, and paid a tribute to the courtesy of the Prune Minister. His opponents also had shown him the greatest courtesy, and the debate in the House had been conducted on high lilies It was notable that on the first division last year nine. Ministers of the Crown supported the Bill, and that of the thirty-one members who supported him on the final division, no fewer .than thirty were Reform members. That made him feel proud to be associated with such a fine body of men. Nelson System Not Sufficient. Re-'arding the amendment carried last year, Mr. Holland said that the Bible-in-Schools League had given serious consideration to the Nelson system, but had come to the conclusion that it did not, and could not, meet the. requirements of the League, since it had failed for so many years, and bad only reached such a limited number of school children. A further point made by Mr. Holland was that examination of the voting last year would show that the House believed that some form of religious instruction was ventured in the schools. A splendid result bad attended the plebiscite taken by the league last vear, when of the votes recorded, throughout the Dominion, 81 per cent, were in favour of the Bill—a fine record, which must convince members that there was a strong feeling behind the Bill, and that the parents desired some religious instruction for their children. The details of the voting showed a majority in favour of 86.3 per cent, in Otago, 81.5 per cent, in Southland, 81 per cent, in Wellington, and 72.44 percent in Taranaki, 80,71 per cent, in Auckland, and 80.72 per cent, in Christchurch. The Nelson system was the Bible out of school hours, while the Bill represented the Bible in school hours. No sane person could suggest that repetition of the Lord’s Prayer would under any circumstances injure a teacher or a child, and what man had been the worse lorreading the sermon on the mount. A Referendum. Mr. Holland said that while lie was not asking for a referendum, be was willing, if there were a demand for it, to submit the matter to a referendum, and the League would abide by the decision of the people whether it went in favour or against Bible in Schools. Mr. Holland intimated also that the league would be willing to hold the Bill up for a year, pending the result ot the referendum, provided it were taken within a reasonable time. He added that all the promoters of the Bill asked for was an opportunity to fill the gaps it had been impossible for the Nelson system to fill. “We have no right to deprive our children of their heritage and birth right,” Mr. Holland concluded. "It I thought for a moment that the system would cause any friction, I would drop the Bill straight away.” Teaching in the Home. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. H. E. Holland) said that there was no reason why the children should be deprived of their religious heritage if the parents taught the Bible in their own homes, and lived it in their own lives. Voices: Hear, hear. . . The Leader of the Opposition: If the hon member’s argument means anything, it means that if the Bible is not taught in the schools it is not taught at all. Mr. H. Holland: That is so. The Leader of the Opposition: Isn t that a reflection on the church people of this country? What a charge he makes against the church! I refuse to believe that the standards of life are higher in any country than they are in New Zealand. , .... A member: They are not as high as they ought to be. ■ ."That may be so, said the Leader of the Opposition, ‘but it is not because there is no scriptural reading in the school.” The Labour Party was pledged to free, compulsory and secular educa tion, as also was the Reform Party, and whoever voted for the Bill violated the platform policy of his own party.- The proper place to teach religious exercises was in the homes, in the churches, and in the Sunday Schools. The majority had no right to dictate even to the minority on such an important matter.

Mr. R. I’. Hudson.(Motueka) paid a fine testimony to the honesty of school children by quoting the case of a newspaper runner who made u daily _ practice of leaving his takings on the pavement, and although dozens of children passed the locality, the money was never interfered with. (Hear, hear.) . "Do you believe in the -Bill.'” queried Mr. W. J. Girling (Wairau). Mr. Hudson: To a certain extent, but I prefer the Nelson system. Mr. W. D. Lysnar , (Gisborne) : Mill yon vote for the Bill? Mr. Hudson: I will come to that later. (Laughter.) In defining his. position with respect to the Bill Mr. Hudson emphatically protested against the accusation that those who did not approve of the Bill were antagonistic to anything in the shape of Bible teaching in schools. Last vear h» had voted for Mr. Atmore s amendment, not with a view to killing the Bill, but honestly. He wanted to see the Nelson system far more generally used than it was now. "My attitude is still the same in regard to the Bill ” added Mr. Hudson, “and with that object in view I have given notice of an amendment which in effect will leave it to the school committees to decide whether they are to.have the Nelson system or the system proposed m the Bill. I intend to move that amendment when the Bill is in Committee. If I’ am beaten on that I mean to move to add a new clause providing that the Nelson system shall be universal save where the school committees or the controlling authorities say it is unworkable. If I am beaten on both, 1 can only look to Mr. Atmore’s proposed amendment to the Education Bill to provide that facilities must be given for the Nelson system if applied for by the • propel authorities.” , More Support for T 'lson System.

Mr. 11. Atmore (Nelson) said it seemed to be considered necessary by the supporters of the Bill to defame the fair name of the children of New Zealand with a view to showing that in other States where Bible reading in schools was in operation, there was a higher standard of morality. The people wouln resent that sort of thing. Under the system proposed, a prepared manual—an emasculated Bible—would be taken into the schools, whereas, under the Nelson «v«tem it was the Bible that went into the schools. If the Bill were passed, it would administer the biggest blow imaginable to church attendance. Members: Question'.’Nonsense. A voice: Do you support the Nelson system? . , ■ ,i„ “Most decidedly, it is the finest in he world,” replied Mr. Atmore, who noted with scorn the proposal in the Bill to prohibit the giving of explanabons on “the most complex subject in the world. Its complexity was shown by the large number of sects, all of whom were dependent for their very existence on the differences existing between them... Mr. W. J. Girling (Wairau) said that while he was.in favour of the Nelson svstem. he believed there was more chance of. sectarianism creeping in under that system than under the present Bill. The Nelson system did not reach all the children, and for that reason he thought th°rc could be no harm in introducing a text book fo long as it was in confortuity with the views of the various denominations. He supported the Bill. Mr J A. Lee ' (Auckland East) said the fact'that eight Cabinet Ministers voted for the Bill last year, and that one of 'he least important members of the Reform Party introduced the Bill, suggested that that party was endeavouring it manufacture. party capital out of the question. » n The •fllinister. of Lands (Hon. A. JJ. McLeod): Nonsense. The debate so far has been on a high level. Mr. Lee: "To-night I have heard the children of New Zealand traduced. Does that represent a high level/’ The opponents of the Bill were not opposed to religion but they believed that those behind the measure were using it to attack the present system-of education aiming at the introduction of grants-in-aid. If there were'more religion?in Parliament it would be much better. “Thou shalt not kill,” quoth Mr. Lee, “but .you can go into the lobby and vote £140,090 for the Singapore Base." ~~ Mr. V. H. Potter (Roskill) : That is for your own protection. ■ You don’t understand. ~ Mr. A. Harris (Waitemata) said Mr. Lee must have known that his statement that those who supported Bible reading in schools were attacking the national education system, was quite contrary to fact. Taken at its very best, the Nelson svstem was a poor substitute for the proposals now before the House. He appealed to the House to pass the Bill. Mr. W. A. Veitch (Wanganui), who opposed the Bill, referred to what he described as the uncharitable comments by leaders of the Bible in Schools movement outside the House, and observed that it was rather an amazing thing that the clergymen who should lead the people in promoting the gospel of goodwill, were creating the most dissension. Hie Nelson system, he maintained, had never been given a fair chance, and he appealed to the Ministers of the Church to help to develop it. ... Mr. W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) said that no legitimate or genuine grounds had been advanced by the opponents as to why the Bill should not pass. NEW RAILWAYS HEAD TERMS OE' APPOINTMENT Full ■ information covering the terms of appointment .of , the new General Manager of Railways (Mr. H. H. 'Sterling) was promised to the House by the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. J. G. Coates) yesterday, when replying to a question by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. 11. E. Holland ;. Mr. Holland, while paying a tribute to the worth of Mr. Sterling, expressed the opinion that the country, was entitled to know the terms of the appointment as far as superannuation was concerned. The Prime Minister replied that he would be guilty of discourtesy to, other members of the House if he replied to the question there and then, for there were already a number of questions on the Order Paper concerning the matter. He did not want to deal with the subject piece-meal fashion, and full information would be given at a later date.

“DELIVERING THE GOODS” NEW ISLAND STEAMER A RESPONSIBILITY SHOULDERED Faith in ability <4 the new Government steamer, Maui Poinare, io cope with the Cook Island trade was expressed in the House of Representatives veste.rdav during the debate on the annual report of the Cook Island Department. .He beHove we have a little bhip that is delivering the goods in a, very satisfactory manner, said the Prime Minister. The debate was inaugurated by Mr. P Fraser (Wellington Central), who ask®d for full information concerning the wages and conditions of the crew of the Maui Pomare. , (tutlining the ’ negotialioim. winch led >n> to the purchase ot the Mam Pomare. Mr Coates said the Government was prepared to assist any company which wished to conduct a.service between the Islands and New Zealand but no request was made. It had sinee been stated that the Government had not made an offei, but that was not correct. A definite offer was made, but nobody came forward, mid it was finally decided to use one of the Government's ships for part ot the Island service until the purchase ot the Maui Pomare. The trade, owing to the trouble in Samoa, had not come up to expectations, but nevertheless, the Government thought that even if a loss were shown, the service would be worth while. Arrangements had been made to land shipments of fruit at Dunedin and Lyttelton alternative!" , Mr E J- Howard (Christchurch South): It costs £3OO a trip. The Prime Minister: Yes, but we thought that if »ve could establish a service‘between the Islands and the South Island of New Zealand, so much the bettor, We believe that we have a little ship that is delivering the goods in a very satisfactory manner. The reports are to that effect.” . c Regarding the wages and conditions or the crew, the Prime Minister said he thought that the Seamen’s Union and the Federation of Labour raised no objection so long as the general conditions of seamen in New Zealand were not affected. Rephing to an interjection, the Prim? Minister said that the Government would onlv have dealings with the Mau Committee when they submitted to the regu.ations of the administration of Samoa. "A Fresh Start. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. H. E.. Holland) said that with the exercise of a little common sense, an arrangement could he come to with the Samoans which would assist the new ship to pay its way. He did not think it a right attitude for the Government to take up that unless the Samoans toed the line under the “big stick” methods, the Government would have no dealings with them. The Government should not persevere in its attitude to save General Richardson. It the Government did the obviously correct thing, and wiped out the past and allowed a fresh start to be made on the basis of equity and justice, he was satisfied that arrangements could be made,, which would be adhered to, and which would be of advantage' to the Samoans and the Europeans. Mr. W. A. Veitch (Wanganui) considered that the trade would prove of great value to New Zealand and Samoa. Every tiling should be done to extend that trade, which would make for greater prosperity for the Islanders, and goodwill between them and the Dominion. Nlr. J. A. Lee (Auckland East) said that he would be a hard critic who would complain if an initial loss were disclosed on the operations of the vessel. The Government’s Responsibilities. Replying, the Minister in Charge of the Cook Islands Department (Sir Maui Poniare) said that when private enterprise put on the service a vessel which could cope with the trade as satisfactorily as the Maui Pomare, the Government would be prepared to get out. The Government had not entered the trade for commercial "■ain ; it was known from the start that Ft would be an absolute loss, but the responsibilities the Dominion had shouldered could not be discharged unless the service to the Islands were catered for. In spite of the trouble in Samoa, trade was gradually improving. Dealing with the value of having a properly refrigerated vessel on the service, the Minister said that in the last shipment by the Maui Pomare, not one banana was lost. Concerning wages and conditions of the crew, the Minister read a letter setting out those details (already published) which had been forwarded to the 1 cdcration of Labour. The report was tabled.

RAILWAY CLASSIFICATION LIST The Prime Minister informed Sir George Hunter (Waipawa), in the House of Representatives yesterday, that the Railway classification list for 1928 would be distributed about the second week in Sir George Hunter suggested that in future the list be laid on the table as early in the session as possible, as a great many railwaymen were interested in it.