TRENTHAM CAMP INQUIRY

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2527, 30 July 1915, Page 6

TRENTHAM CAMP INQUIRY

ASSERTIONS DISCARDED COMMISSION DECLINES TO RECORD THEM j DR. THACKER'S DIGNITY Yesterday, further evidence i?as heard l>y the Royal Commission which is investigating Trentham' Camp affairs. His Honour Mr. Justice Hosting is President of tho Commission, and the other members are Dr. A". A. MaTcin and Mr, W. Eerguson. Dr. Thaeker, M.P., a surgeon captain in the Territorials, said that Trentham ra not a suitable sito geologically or geographically. Lord Kitchener had recommended a standing camp at W'aimarino to train an army on. In the time of the South African War a camp at Christchurch was threatened with an epidemic of jerious .diseases, and Colonel ChafTey struck canip within twelve hours, and moved to a new sito, and tho trouble subsided. The military knew that there would be a shortage of tents, and that,, therefore, they would have to build hutments. Looking, ahead, the authorities should have got .the timber for tho huts in. before the bad weather came ,011, and this piecaution would have prevented the cutting up of the. ground, and the roads to a great extent; and, moreover, loading provisions should have been made. Gveeu timber was used in the huts. There was no surface drainage at tho camp. His Honour: When did you first see the camp? Dr. Thaeker: June 2",

Witness describod the Trentham Bite as formerly a lake. His Honour: .1 don't think your views quite accord witli the report of the geologist. Are you a geologist? Dr. Thaeker: yes; 1 have studied geology in my B.A. course. 'His Honouri Well, assume it's a lake. . ; Dr. Thaeker: It's more than an assumption. I say- that' prehistorically it was a lake. Witness added tiiat lie took the temperature one night at Trentham, and it was below freezing point, which indicated that the men eleeping on the floors of tents or huts were lying in freezing atmosphere. : Witness made a number of remarks about the possible victimisation of a mail whom he thought should be called, but .whose immunity from the .consequences of giving- evidence should be assured. ...

His' Honour filially told the witness that the Commission had nothing to do with the question of victimisation, and wanted facts. Witnesses, ho added, enjoyed the came protection before the Commission as did witnesses in the Supreme Court. The Number of ..Doctors. Dr. Thacker then said that ho had met in a barber's shop a man who had been discharged from hospital, but was i'.l enough to be in bed. , Witness visited Trentham Camp on June 2S. Near the Kiosk he mot a. party of stretcher-bearers, ono of whom lie examined and found to be suffering from an ulcerated throat and swollen glands. In the Kiosk men were lying' about, somo in semi-damp ololhes. Two-thirds of the men, who numbered 220, had sore throats. His Honour:' Then, you must havo examined about IGO. Dr. Thacker: Oh, no; it is not-neces-sary h examine a man to know he has a sore throat. You could see their swollen necks, and hear them complain, lng of sore throats. It would have taken two days to examine all their throats thoroughly. Mr. Ferguson: Then that-is only an estimate? - - Dr. Thacker:', Yes. Mr. Ferguson: How many did you examine?. , Dr. Thacker: About nine; Witness said, also, that some of the men ive're deaf and had had their ears syringed. There were no ftot wnter bottles (as far as he could see), no sheets, and no pillow slips. He found ona man there to whom attention was attracted the efforts of Dr. Harrison to make him hear. The man was semi-conscious. He died next day, and witness considered him ono of Rie cases of cerebro-spinal meningitis. Witness considered that precautions should ■ffave been taken to deal with what were clearly, «eptic throats. He did not see any evidence at tho kiosk of raitable feeding for tho men, and he saw men attendants there who knew nothing about their work. The transit for the. cases sent in to Kaiwarrfi was in' open. motor-car, and. th© transit should have been by motor ambulance. ~ ■ " ■ His Honour: Do you consider two medical men there was sufficient? Dr. Thacker: No.. I told Dr. Ferguson and Dr. Harrison they wanted three to five more doctors there. His Honour. Did you'tell them, also, of what you had seen, according with tho observations you have made here to-day? Dr. Thacker: Yes ' .

"Don't Make Statements for the Newspapers." In one of the last American, wars, witness added, the bunks were slung in hammocks from the tent pole to the sides when camp lwd fb be pitched on damp, marshy ground. He had made a suggestion to this effect in the House, and the Minister .had answered that he would send the men to the moon, or "some idiotic expression." His Honour:. We,won't put that down iri the evidence. You can deal with that in the House. I don't think this is the place: I shall not allow it to be taken down in the evidence. If the newspapers wish to take It they can do what they like. ' ■ ■ , , - Di. Thackor: If the newspapers take it, tlidt will do. ... • ' • ■ His Honour:.l don't think you should j come here and ifiakc statements for tho newspapers. Wo don't want to hear comment on the answers Ministers givo to members in the . House. What you say may be true, but .it is no-concern for ue, "and I' don't want to hear it. , Dr. Tracker: Well, I will not repeat it. His Honour: - 1 hope not. ■ Witness said that when he was at.tlio tea iiosk the men were pttlting on boots which were thoroughly wet. Several of the nurses' at Trentham had taken measles and septic throats. Mr. Gray: How many? . ' ■ . ~ . Dr. Thacker: I think six or. eight. ' , . That points to the virulence of the trouble, as it is not very often you get nurses attacked. Sick men from the racecourse said that their food was very indifferently' cooked. Thty got stew, but not vegetables. .Vegetables' were very necessary, and there was no scarcity of 'hem. The men also said they got half-baked sago, and half-cooked rise. A sick man needed good soups and milk, hot. Mr. Ferguson: You didn t see soups or milk? Dr. Thacker: No ' : Dr Thacker complained that the men in camp had had no facilities for washing themselves, and there was an insufficiency of soap. There should have been DOO or 600 shower baths in camp, and if they were not hot tliey should at least have been tepid. He had conic across tho case of a man on whose face lie could almost see the dirt; it seemed ground in. He gave the man a, bath, and the colour of the water after the dip testified to the state of the man. Mr. Salmond: Why do you say there was not enough soap? Do you know it was not supplied to them; that they bought their own soap? Do you .mean to say they could not buy soap? • Dr Thacker thought that, a shortage of soap probably meant that it was not "readily obtainable at the canteen.

Forced Himself on the Commission. Witness went on to say that at Berhamporc Hospital the septic pneumonia onees were in the same ward as the measles, ond.there was not a sufficiency of nurse;;. Berhampore was situated in a gully. There was no ivatcr in the main building. Sir. Ferguson; The original plan shows that there was. Dr. Thackcr said that one of the nurses told him there was not water there, and that it had to be carried. Jeifciae2££. aMscl. SESSL

no place for sick men, and 110 sito for a hospital. He remembered the cases of Wo. Pollard and Pte. Fordliarn, who were lying on stretcher beds right under cold windows, whereas septic- pneumonia cases should havo had warm air. Both theso men were excessively ill when he saw them. Nurse Hanna, who. was then at Berhampore, was a very thorough, capable woman, but the nurses had not enough assistance.-- Had the authorities eho'wn initiative,, they could have commandeered a beautiful new school; at Berhampore and a scliool at, Lower Hutt. But the authorities had neither initintivo uor enterprise. Dr. ThacEer said,that thongli he had Bent in his name as willing to give evidence before the Commission, he had not been asked to come, and had only forced himself on the Commission. His Honour: Who did you send your name to? Dr. Thackcr: To the secretary of the Commission. Tho secretary stated that he had not received it. His Honour remarked also that as soon as tlie Commission, knew that Dr. Thaeker wished to give evidence they appointed a tirno to hear him. Alleged Conflict of Military and Civil Doctors, Dr. Thaeker suggested that a consulting depot should be established in tho City, so that soldiers on leave could receive attention; He remarked that thero was antagonism between the military and the civil doctors; there had been a rupture, a non-recognisance, between the military doctors and the British Medical Association. . ...

Mr. Ferguson: Are not the military doctors still members of the 8.M.A.? Do they leave it as soon as they put on the khaki?. Dr.' Thaeker said that was not the position,. exactly; but when a doctor took a public "position he felt that he might be more independent apart from the association. •• Dr. Thaeker said that he knew of tho ease ,of a -man ,in camp to whom a telegram was sent on June 28, saying that ins mother was ill and sinking, and asking him to- come at onoe. No reply was received that day from the soldier, and next day his mother died. Then a telegram came from the man. at Trentham saying that he could not come as he had been ordered into hospital. He added that he was writing. That letter had not been, received. Witness had not managed to get any explanation of the case. Dr. Thaeker'attributed the trouble over sickness at Trentham to the fact that tho authorities had not expended the money needed to erect .adequate hospital arrangements at Trentham. There should havo been a base hospital, the accommodation of which was reckoned at the rate of 25 to the thousand. ' Moreover, without such a hospital there, it was impossible to train the'ambulance, people, and the fact that these men were ill-trained had caused great loss in their ranks at G'aba Tepe. A member of the Commission asked if tlie witness saw through the Camp Hospital. Dr.'Thaeker: No. They would not allow me to go through. I was held up on the road. I thought that as a public man and a' member of Parliament'l had a. right to go anywhere, and I would not ask for a pass. His Honour: Oh. Wc have taken the precaution to get a pass whenever wo hatfe gone.' Dr. Thaeker: I would not submit myself to tho indignity of asking for one.. His Honour: Well, of course, the gatekeeper does not, know > Dr. l'h'acker: I had my member of Parliament pass. Mr. Gray: That is for railways—is it not? Mr. Salmond: Not for hospitals. Dr. Thaeker: Yes.

Another Assertion Struck Out. _ Dr. Francis Wallace Mackenzie, of Wellington, who stated that he '.ad had experience of military camps, ii eluding experience in tho South Africa-", war, gave evidence. He thought tho measles were introduced to Trentham camp from without, but that the spread of the trouble was due to the fact that sufficient steps were not taken to check its progress. Hospital accommodation should have been provided at the camp from the start. Ho blamed ;the British system for what had occurred, rather than individuals. The weakness in the system was that provision for sickness was not mader in advance. Then the Director of Military Services here was paid Xl5O per year, which was not enough to live on, and consequently that official had to do something else in addition to his military duties, and they could not expect him to stop an epidemic. One possible effect of paying an insufficient sum was .that a man who was not qualified for the position might bo secured. ' '.

"Of course,"" Dr. Mackenzie remarked, I "men don't matter. The military don't care how many die, as. long as they get others." , Mr.' Salmond: Is that part of your evidence? ' ■ Dr. Mackenzie: Well- — • Mr. Salmond: Do you want that taken down as part of your evidence? His Honour: It is of no value. Mr. Salmond: I understand that the witness lias committed himself to the proposition that the military don't care how many men die. Does he wish it taken down as evidence? His Honour: I don't think'it should go down. His Honour (to witness): Do youi wish it taken down or left out' Dr. Mackenzie: Perhaps we liad better leave it out. His Honour: Perhaps we had. His Honour (to the official stenographer) : Strike it out. Dr. Mackenzie: It is true all the same. I don't think any individual is to blame. It is simply the fault of the general British system. Mr. Skerrett: We . are not here concerning the general British character or the general character of the British Amiy. We are dealing entirely with Trentham. Sergeant-Major James Hartley, now encamped at Rangiotu, stated that when lip was at Trentham there were 72 men in his hat, and soino of them were sleeping under tho tables. The lints were cold and draughty. -He had had experience of Cnrragh, and the food here was much better. Sergeant Charles Gair and Sergeant Arthur R. Blackman, also from Rangiotu, deposed that when in huts at Trentham they were ordered not to put their coats on the shelves, and the result was that wet. coats were thrown across their beds. Subsequently this' order was Tevoked, and they were permitted to hang coats on the rafters. Sergeant Gair said that the huts were very crowded for sleeping and eating in. Th're were over 70 in lis hut. The Commission will'resume at 10.15 a.m. to-day.