LAND BILL OBSTRUCTED.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1879, 13 October 1913, Page 4

LAND BILL OBSTRUCTED.

NIGHT OF FARCE.

PARLIAMENT IN THE DOLDRUMS.

HAURAKI LANDS.

THE PREMIER TAKES A FIRM STAND'.

Usually, when there is organised obstruction of business in the Houso of Representatives or in any other Legislative Chamber, the obstructionists rest tlieii: case, upon some great principlo, real or alleged, which they* declare to be at stake., Tho Opposition Party, has .broken-away from tradition in matters, of tliis kind,-and has spent the week-ond in blocking tho progress of a Land Bill which is supported by nearly every prominent membor, on,their,own sido of the House. : . The trouble broke out in a minor form on-Friday night, when threo hours were spent'in talking about one clauso. Afterwards half-a-dozen contentious clauses were passed without discussion, but the clauso noxt in order (No. 25) supplied tho Opposition with exactly tho barrior to progress that they required. In itself the clauso is hot of imposing importance. It provides that pastoral leaso tenants of certain steep and rather barren hillsides in tho Hauraki mining district many acquire tlio surfaces-freehold • of their* land, -the 'possession of minerals being specifically reserved to the Crown. Tb<r first 1 hours "of. discussion .upon Clauso • 25 were reported 1 in The Dominion: on Saturday. : In tho small hours, there was a littlo incidont that passed almost unnoticed at tho time, although "it assumed .somo importance la'tcr. 1 Mr. G. : Laurenson, member for Lyttelton; quotod from a letter which ho had 'received, a statement that a man (name not mentioned) and his son occupied two thousand acres of the land to the tenure of which tho clauso under ■review would append a right to acquire tho freoliold. Ono Opposition member aftei; another made reference to tlio matter, and eventually a specific charge was made; against Mr. T. W. Rhodes, member.for Thames, which was. answered . by that member and by tho Primo.Ministor. . Apart from this detail, the obstruction tactics of the • Opposition were of tlio most commonplace character, one dreaty "speech" following another in unending succession. From five o'clock in tho morning onwards tho principal issue'before the House was an Opposition assertion that they were being unmercifully driven, a contention that was received with ; derisidn by Government supporters, who had been reduced to profitless Vi'nactivity during tho'night and tho following hours. About 11 p.m. on! Friday Clause 25 was reached, and it was still before tho Committco at midnight on Saturday, when the Committee adjourned in accordance • with tho Standing Orders of Parliament until 2.30 p.m. to-day. Right through the dreary night, and day, and night again, tho leaseholders on tho Opposition side raged against the Government for having, as thoy alleged, broken faith with the democracy and parted with the "people's heritage." Professed freeholders on the Opposition side either joined in tho talk, and so kept up the obstruction, or, by their silence acquiesced in the holding up of tho Bill, which thoy had already approved by voting for tho second reading of it.-. Only at one stago did the Government members take a part in tho proceedings, and this was between 7.30 p.m. . and 9.30 p.m. on .Saturday, when three or four members spoke. Iheir -remarks were mainly expressions of approval of the clause under discussion, and of disgust with tho nonsisical tactics of the alleged "Liberals." Only ono remark, mado perhaps threo times -during tho later stages of the sitting, deserves mention.' It was suggested, apparently seriously, that tho opponents of the freehold ought to obstruct the Bill oven to tho extent of forcing a dissolution, and an appeal to the country on the freehold issue. No Actual threat was made that they would do so, however. Once only was any kind of a threat made, and that was by the member for Avon, when, thwart'ed in somo special design to speak by "tho'.raising, of .a point of order by the Minister of Finance, ho said with somothin'g'like a'snarl : ."You won't get your Bill through, anyhow.". Continuing tho discussion upon Clauso 2j, several Opposition members ob-jected-to the clauso on the ground, amongst others, that great and needless expense "would' be imposed upon tho State in tho ovont of tho discovery of minerals, making it necessary to rosumo the land for mining • purposes. Sir 'Joseph."Ward urged that the clauso should be postponed. Tho-Prime Minister said that there was. nothing to be gained by deferring tho clause, but that he would tako tho opinion of tho Solicitor-General upon it before it becamo law. The Hon. W. H. Herries said that th 3 passing of tho qlause would open a largo area of land for prpfitablo .occupation, and it would not interfere with gold mining. An Accusation Suggested. Mr. G. W. Russell (Avon) asked that the Covornmont should make inquiries as to whether any member of the House was .interested in a lease which could bo converted into freehold if the Bill becamo law. Tho Hon., W. H. Herries said that tho. Government had no knowledgo of any member being so interested. Mr. J. Payne (Groy Lynn) said that he had heard that Mr. T. W. Rhodes and his sort had a lease of 2000 acres in the Hauraki district lands, covered " bv Section 25. Mr. G. W. Forbes asked whether tho clauso had been brought in with I the approval of tho miners, or at.thoir : ' instance? ■ ] . Mr. T. W. Rhodes: Tho Primo Minister told you at whoso instance it was introduced. | Mr. Forbes said that ho had not heard tho Minister make any statement on the subjcct. , ! Limiting Compensation. Mr. H. Poland (Ohinemuri) said that he had a Hauraki district leasehold of 450 ,acn;s which ho had recently converted into a (i6-yeaTs' renewable leaso. - He did not intend to purchase the freehold even' if the 'clause becamo law, nnd he did not intend to vote for the clause. He moved an amendment providing that in tho event of any of "tho lands affected by tho section being tosnn'ied' by the Crown compensation should be paid in rospect of surface , value only, and that it should not oxreed the amount paid to the Crown for the land, plus tlio value of improvements effected by the purchaser. The Hon. W. H. Herrios said that he

could not accept the amendment. What was commonly called tho unearnod' increment might amount to a gooaf deal a hundred years hence.

Mr. Russell: But this is a 21-years' lease. The leaso may bo withiui six months of expiring, and you, givo him the freehold 1 . ' Tho Minister: The hon. genJileman can vot'o against tho clause, as 1 know lie intends to do.. Mr. Isitt congratulated tho member for Ohinemuri (Mr. Poland) on tho frank statement lie had made. When a . member was I interested in a. matter that camo .before tho Houso, the least that ho could do was to frankly cldsclose his position without waiting for • it to bo cork-scrowed out of him. Mr. Rhodes Explains. Mr. T. W. Rhodes, who had just returned to tho Chamber, said tlhat he had been given to understand thsat during his absence from tho G'namber directly or by inference Mr. Isitt: You were here wlien Mr. Payne mentioned your name. _ Mr. Rhodes: I have no hesitation in saying that I, am tho holder olj one of tlio Hauraki leases —I havo a perfect right to hold one. Air. Isitt: What area P Mr. Rhodes: 1 don't know, It/hasn't been surveyed. Mr. Isitt: About what area? Mr. Rhodes Baid that his Saasehold contained from 800 to 1000 acres. He added that ho had got tho laJad at a ballot, and had hold it for somo tlireo years.i After tho ballot the sediion was inspected, in tho usual 'way, by the Crown Lands Ranger,' and tho Wardens' representative. AH that ho li ad dono in connection with the clauso boforo tho House was to proposo a sttb-clauso which made it easy for miners to get access. Under the clause compensation would bo paid only for surface rights, lie did not know what tho im.putation against him 'was. Ho had nothing to hide.

Mr. R. M'Callum: You did hiidel Mr. Rhodes: Judge not, last ye bo judged 1 Mr. M'Callum: No Scripture, please!

Mr. Rhodes" said thai, the question of selling tho Hauraki pastoral lands liad been fully reported upon by a Parliamentary Committco in 191)0. Since then representations had been-madO) on the subject by .deputations. ' More From the Critics. Mr. R. M'Callum (Wairau) uxged that ; tho Minister should now excise this clause from the Bill. Mr. Rhodes had stated that ho owned 1000 acres. He would pledge his word that Mx. Rhodes Eossessed 2000 acres, and challenged im to deny it. I Dr. Poinaro:, How much -have you got? Mr. M'Callum made a reraa.rk about "tho imbecility of the Minister for the Cook Islands," which ho had to immediately withdraw. The discussion was carried on by Messrs. Ell and Forbes, the latter of whom suggested that the Primo Minister should be sent for. The member for Thames, he declared, had' betrayed the men who returned him to Parliament. Ho had been returned as a Liberal, a,nd now he was a Tory. Mr. Herries: Ho is an Independent. "Impropriety." Mr. Isitt urged that tho Government out of regard for its- own reputation should postpone this clause until the matter had been cleared up. The member for- Thames liad promoted this amendment, and was guilty o£ this impropriety. . Mr. Herries asked whether the word "impropriety" was Parliamentary. The Chairman ordered the ward to be withdrawn, but after somo discussion Mr. Isitt was permitted to say. " political iniproprioty." ' Tho Primo Minister, returned to the Chamber at 4 a.m. after an absence of about a couplo of hours. Mr. Lee, who had been replaced in tho Chair for a similar period by Mr. W. H. D. Bell, returned at alxmt tho samo time.

Mr. Russell said that his recollection was that in introducing the Bill tho Prime Minister had said that crcdit for tho clauso before the Houso was to bo given to tlio member for Thames. _ Ho suggested that the Primo Minister should agree to report progress in order that the Government might consider, before Tuesday, what should bo dono in tho matter. .Origin of the Clause. Tho Primo Minister said that he had not heard tho discussion, but there seemed to havo been a suggestion put forward that the, Government had been influenced in somo way by somo member of tho House. lie had not had , tlje very slightest idea of any member of tlio Houso owning any of these lands or leases. So far as the clauso was- concerned, ho had been influenced by various deputations that waited upon him in tho Thames mining district. Their representations wore on record, but ho could not produce them then if his secretary, was wlioro ho ought to bo—asleop. There was a littlo laughter here, for tho secretary in question (Mr. Thomson) was standing at the cud of tho Chambor. Tlio Primo Minister continued that tho membor for Thamos had como to him with an amendment, and had taken it to the Crown Law Draftsman, who had condensed it for him. Its object was to preserve to minors tho rights that tjicy now held. Mr. Russell: What about tho rights of tho Crown? Mr. Massey: Tho rights of the Crown are conserved in the Bill. Mr. Rhodes, he added, had acted in a porfectly bona fide manner. Sir Joseph Ward siyd that he did not wish to saddle tho Prime Minister with any responsibility for tho clauso. Ho contendod, however, that it was a very undosirablo proposal. A Ministerial Assurance. Tho Prime Minister, comparing _ Mr. Rhodes's amondment in it 3 original form and as drafted, said that tho Law Draftsman seomed to have gono further than the member for Thames had intended. ' The clauso, in its finished form, provided that fees and royaltios, as well as rents, should bo paid to tho owner of tho land.

Ho went on to remark that he had told the Loader of tho Opposition long ago that ho intended to submit this clause to the Solicitor-Gonoral. Ho

wanted to inako suro that no wrong was being dono to tho State, and that the rights and privileges of minors were fully conserved. Ho bad not known that any member was interested, and personally ho did not think it mattered very much. Ho promised that- tho wbolo thing would bo gouo into before it left the Houso.

Sir J. Ward: There can bo no harm ill postponing the clauso. Tho I'iimo Minister: I liavo given my assurauco that it will not go past this stago until tho whole thing ihas boon inquired into exhaustively, and tlio vory best legal opinion obtained as to whether tho rights of tho Stato wore being conserved. Sir J. Ward again askod that tho clauso should ho postponed. Tho Prime Minister said that if tho thing was wrong it was not going any further.

Mr., Russell suggested that tho clauso had Hotter remain moantimo where it was. The Prime Minister dissented. Ho said that tho clause had been discussed for four or five hours, and embodied a valuable proposal. Mr. Russell: Is thoro any other twenty-ono years' lease in respect or which you are prepared to grant 1 tho freehold? Tho Primo Minister said that the tenants concerned had tho right now ti convert to a 6G years' leaso.; Further, they could obtain a leaso m' perpetuity and so indirectly, tho freehold. Mr. Rhodes: Somo of thom have acquired tho freehold. Tho Acting-Chairman (Mr. Leo) pointed out that after a clauso had been considered and amended it could not bo postponed. Credit For the Clause. Mr. Russell said that the Prime Minister, in moving tho second reading of the Land Bill, had said that credit for the clauso under discussion, belonged to tho member for Thames. Tho Prime Minister: I don't recollect it—l may have said so. Mr. Herries: Any member alivo to the interests of liis district would have introduced tho clauso. After somo further discussion tho Prime Minister said that ho would givo a definite assurance that ho would recommit tho clauso. Sir Joseph Ward accepted tho assurance and expressed a hopo that tho I'rimo Minister would now consent to adjourn. The Prime Minister offered to postpone Clauso 26, which was said to bo contentious, and to tako the nest sis clausos. Here Till Christmas. , Sir Joseph Ward refused to entertain this proposal. Mr. Herries: We'll bo here till Christmas', anyhow! < At 4.50 a.m. Sir Joseph Ward said he would movo to report progress.

Mr. Hemes: Hoar, hear! Sir Joseph Ward said they wero not responsible for what liad taken placo. A Government member.: Inat is "puro." . Sir Joseph Ward said that it Mr. Herries had boon on the Opposition side lie could not havo done anything else than had been done that night. Mr. Herries: It is all party. Sir Joseph Ward said that men could not be driven. "What is the good of tryiug to drivo us," ho said, "whon we are dog-tired f" 0 Member for Thames Defended. The Prime Minister said that he believed that the member for Thames had acted in a thoroughly disinterested spirit, rile knew from the number of letters he had received what a keen desiro thero was to liavo theso lands settled. - Mr. W. Nosworthy expressed the opinion that if the business of the country was to be done tho obstruction of the Opposition would have to bo .worn down. Finally ho told the Opposition that they were not playing a very fair game. Tho Prime Minister said that they 'were on tho verge of what very often led to a twelve-hour sitting. Thore was hot a man in the House who did not want to avoid it. The Cauntlct Down.' Sir Joseph Ward, at 5.00 a.m., moved to report progress. Government members: Hear, hear I Sir Joseph Ward: Very well, then, we will go on till midnight, that is cloarly understood. I promiso tho Prime Minister won't do much work on this Bill. Mr. Massoy (afTably): All right. Sir Joseph Ward said that he had tried to do tho fair thing in every possible way. He accused tho Minister of Railways of "walking around and stirring up mischief and trouble." ' This impeachment Mr. Herries denied. Sir Joseph Ward again suggested an adjournment. At 5.20 a.m. the Houso went to a division on tho motion to report progross. . . The motion was negatived by 34 votes to 23. At 6.50 a.m." a division was taken upon Mr. Poland's amendment limiting tho amount of compensation to be paid under Clause 25. . Tho amendment was negatived by 32 votes to 19.

Mr. Ngata moved again to report progress.

Mr. Witty spoko for ten minutes in support of the motion. Incidentally he affirmed sovoral times ovor that tho sub-clause moved by Mr. Rhodes was f'a subtle clause." An Imputation Rosented. The Prime Minister said that a remark by Mr. Witty had distinctly cast an imputation upon tho member for Thames. Ho was going to give tho country an opportunity to judge, and would not allow tho matter to drop. Dealing with tho origin of the disputed clause, hp 6aid that when tho deputations came to him to ask for it, tho member for Thames had taken a keen interest in tho matter. Whon tho Rill was boforo tho Lands Committee, Mr. Rhodes raised tho question of safeguarding milling rights. The amendment which ho had moved was in tho form in wliioh it had been cast by the Law Draftsman. Mr. Isitt: Did you know that he had that 2000-acre leaso? Mr. Massey: No, I did not know that ho had a 2000-acre lease. Mr. Isitt: With his son? Mr. Massey: I did not know that tho honourable gentleman had a son until to-night.' I think ho said at one of tho deputations in the Thames' district that ho had one of theso occupation leases on licenses. Tho letter read by thi> member for Lyttelton, ho continued, should havo boon laid upon tho table. Tho letter contained a vory serions reflection upon a member of tho House. Brushing asido a referenco by Mr. Witty to ft lotter reflecting upon tho member for Grey Lynn, Mr. Massey said that ho was going to ask tho member for Lyttolton to lay tho lotter ho had read upon tho table, and to clear tho matter up. Whatever happened now it must bo probed to tho very bottom, and he was not going to allow it to rest. Whether tho mutter went to a Parliamentary Committee or not tho matter would have to bo cleared up, and somcono would have to take tho consequences. Ho was convinced that tho member for Thames had done nothing that was not perfectly honest and straightforward. Mr. Rhodes was a thoroughly straight man, and ho had acted in a thoroughly honourable manner. Finally the Primo Minister statod that ho withdrew the offer of compromise that lie had made to the Opposition some time previously. Appeal to Mr. Speaker. Mr. Witty essayed to reply to tho Primo Minister, but Jlr. J. 11. Hiue, wiio was now acting as Chairman of Committees, ruled him out of order ami instructed him to coniino his remarks to tho motion to report progrosa. Mr.

Witty moved that tho Speaker's ruling ho taken, and persisted in his motion, although tlio Chairman stated that he had ruled tho honourable member out of order on tho ground of irrolovanco. Tho matter was argued at somo length before tho Speaker, who ruled that members discussing a motion to ropovt progress must confino Uheir remarks to it, and that tho Chairman's decision upon tho question of relevancy was final. Afterwards tho Speakor heard somo further argument, Sir Joseph Ward, Mr. Witty, and other members contending that tho Prime Minister had been allowed to mako a statement to which Mr. Witty had boon denied the right of reply. To this tho Prime Minister replied that what ho had dono was to reply to an allegation made by Mr. Witty. Tho Speaker said that tho question put before him seemed to bo "whether different mombers had been treated equally fairly by tho Chairman. This was not a question that ho coijjd bo called upon to decido. At 8 a.m. the Houso adjourned for breakfast. When tli'o Houso'resumed at 9.15 a.m. about thirteen members, most of them looking rested and refreshed,. put in an appearance. Mr. Isltt on Purity. Mr. L. M. Isitt' essayed tho task of advancing "good and solid" reasonß for reporting progress. Ho went on to review tlio events of the night, interrupted from timo to timo by emphatic denials and mirthful ejaculations from tho occupants of tlio Government benches. Ho contended that the Opposition had put up an emphatic protest in tho interests of the. purity of tho House. (Laughter.) "Bad and Black." Mr. R. M'Callum said that if the affair which had engaged tho House during tho night was as bad and black as thoy thought it was, tho Opposition would cariy on the matter until they wore literally l carried out on shutters. (Loud laughter.) Mr. M'Callum provoked still more hearty laughter as 110 wont on to speak of "ghastly details." Ho predicted that tho Conservative press would have very little to say about tho matter.. "Ono reason for reporting progress," continued Mr. M'Callum, "is that wo aro here—just because we're here. Anothor reason is that this is the Jewish Sabbath." He explained that ho raised this point in the interests of,the member for Auckland East (Mr. A. M. Myors). . Mr.,Myers: It is tho Day of the Atonement, too! . Changes In the Chair. Mr. Mac Donald declared that the night's proceedings wore a farce. Ho denied that the Opposition ha,d intended obstruction at the beginning of tho evening. Ho had taken no part in the discussion, for this was only tho sccond time ho had spoken upon it.' Tho Prima Minister should ceaso this childish procedure, and make a straight-out declaration to tho Houso as to the' position ho intended to tako up. It looked as if they would bo there till midnight. Mr. Fisher: Tho Bill will bo through beforo then, surely. Obstruction Promlsod. Mr. Ell: What nonsense. Mr. Isitt: Not a lino. Mr. Myers was looking fresh and vigorous after a night's sleep, when ho urgod, at 10 o'clock, that tho House should adjourn. He sympathised with his colloagues who had Deen up all night. Why, if tho good peoplo of Auckland could soo tho hon. member for Auckland Central and tho condition in which he appeared to be, they would enter a very strong protest abouS allowing'him to continuo to deliberate. (Laughter.) Mr. Glover, it may bo said, was wearing a soft wide-awake grey hat and a long muffler, and did- not look quite so fresh as tho gentleman whom 110 frequently calls "my colleague, Mr. Myors." Mr. Myers assured tho Prime Minister that ho would not lose prestige by adjourning. An Interesting Comparison. Tho Hon. F. M. B. Fishor mado comparison botwecn tho average hours of sittings on tho first 62 days of tho sossion of 1910 (when the Ward Government was in office), and tlio first 62 days of this session.: The record was as follows: — Average Sittings after Session. sitting time. midnight. 1910 7h. lm. '35 1913 7h. lm. . 31 Tho avorage sitting time for tho 62 days of tho two sessions was thus exactly the same,whereas tho days 011 which tho Souse sat after midnight were fowor this session by four than during tlio samo period in 1910. It should also bo pointed out that this year's sitting timo included ono sitting of 85 hours' obstructive tactics, which spoiled tho present Government's average. Sir Joseph Ward said that tho work dono should also bo compared, and that comparison would bo in, the favour of tho Ward Government.

Ho wanted to state tho position as it stood, and afterwards suggested that a division should bo taken. Sir Joseph proceeded to roviow tho position. After a little further discussion a division was taken on the motion to report progress This was defeated by 21 votes to 17.

Tho Reason for the Obstruotiori,

Tho Hon. W. F. Massey, Primo Minister (speaking at 11 a.m.), said that the Committeo, during tho sitting, had only passed eleven clauses of tho Bill, of which nine were machinory clauses. Thus, only two contentious clauses had boon passed whon tho request to report progress was made. Ho felt that sufficient, work had not been dono and that there had been unreasonable obstruction, and he refused to comply with the request. Ho mado a reasonable olfer which was not accepted. All that ho could say now was that tho members on tho Government side of tho Houso were prepared to go on with tho business of the country—(hear, . hoar) —as soon as tho other sido ceased its obstruction. Comparisons had been mado between tho timo spent on • the present Bill and the Land Bill of 1907, but tho circumstances wero different. In IDO7 ovcry member of tho then Opposition was opposing tho Bill for all lie w,is worth, but tho present Land Bill /had. been supported by all tho principal members of the present Opposition (including tho Leader). Tho Hon. A. T. Ngata: You mean that.they voted for the second reading? Mr. Mnssey said that notwithstanding this faot, tho Bill was being obstructed in a way that ho had not previously experienced. Sir Joseph Ward ropoatod his pqevious statement in. regard to sending for tho Primo Minister early in tho morning. Mr. \V. D. S. Mac Donald said that ho had voted for tho Bill, but ho could not support Mr. Rhodes's amendment. Tho Committeo then started off on a long, dreary discussion. «'An Improper Suggestion." Mr. G. Forbes said that it had been stated that a member of tho Houso was pecuniarily interested in gotting tho clause put through.

Mr. Massey: It is a most improper suggestion to make. Mr. Forbes: Tho statement has been mado and it should be cleared up. Tho member fpr .Ohincn.uri made a straightout statement regarding his lease.

Mr. Nosworthy: Ho gut it under your legislation, tou. Mr. Masse.v: f do not believe that anv member of tho House is financially interested in this Bill. Mr. Isitt: Whjj tho moinbor for

Thames has admitted that ho has a leaso in this area.

Mr. Rhodes: I give the statement that I am financially interested an absolute denial. 1 acknowledge) that I am tho holder of a lease, but 1 am not financially interested in this clause.

Mr. Massey. I do not helievo that any member of tho House is financially interested in tho clause. I havo already got tho wires working, and 1 shall havo a Parliamentary Committco at work within a few days. He had looked closely into tho clause, ho said, and could see nothing in it to take exception to. It had been drafted by tho Law Draftsman, and nothing moro straightforward had over been drafted. It was of no benefit to Mr. Rhodes, who could not acquire tho freehold of his leaso until ho had complied with all the provisions of tho Land Act, and that would tako many .years. When the Lands Connnitteo was considering tho Bill, Mr. Rhodes expressed himself as being anxious to preserve tho min- | ing privileges for tho minerals, and ho suggested that the Law Draftsman should bo asked to draft a clauso. To this he (Mr. 'Massey) had readily assented. Sir Walter Buchanan (Wairarapa) said that about twonty-fivo members of tho House wero making their living" out of tho land, hud ho protested against any suggestion that thesp membors were doing anything improper in voting on the Land Bill. Words Withdrawn. ■ Mr. R. M'Callum said it appeared to him that if ever tliero wero pickings going to a supporter of a Government tbero were pickings in this case. Mr. Massey moved that the words bo taken down, and tho Chairman called upon Mr. M'Callum to withdraw. Mr, M'Callum withdrew tho expression, and substituted the term "political pickings." •Mr. Witty (Riccarton), reading from the minutes of tho Land Committee, showed that "the Rhodes clauso" was supported by all tho members of tho Committee, excepting Mr. Robertson and- himsolf. Not Harmful. Mr. Massey said that since he had last spoken ho had seen tho Law Draftsman, who had made tho following statement: —"Tho object of Mr. Ithodes's amendment was to protect mining interests, and to permit of the Mining Act continuing to apply to tho lanu of which tho fee-simple was purchased, with tho modification, that tho rents, fees, etc., were to go to the owner of the land." Mr. Rhodes repeated his previous explanation regarding his leaso, and said that "My hands are quite as clean as thoso of my critics." He said that ho had never given a thought to conversion, his only idea boing to advanco tlio interests of his constituents, who had elected him on tho freehold issue. Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh said that Mr. Rhodes's explanation seemed to bo as clear as mud. _ Ho felt that Mr. Rhodes had been entirely oxonerated. Mr. Jlassoy read tho report of a deputation which had waited upon him asking him that the llauraki lands should 1 ho thrown open. Ho also road an instruction that no had sent to the Under-Secretary for Lands to tlio effect that a clauso should bo.diafted giving tho option of tho freehold to the holders of tho leases, but securing tho milling rights to tho Crown. Proposals to Adjourn. > Sir Joseph Ward, at five minutes to 9110, again appealed to tlio Prime Minister to agrco to t'ho proposal mado by him (Sir Joseph Ward) previously, and to adjourn. Tlio Prime Minister repeated' his determination to go on, and at 1 p.m. tho Chairman loft tho chair until 2.30 p.m. After luncheon Sir Joseph Ward suggested that thoro ought to bo some compromise. Tho Government, ho said, could never win by driving. Ho know becauso he had tried both. A Long-Withhold Protest. At a quarter to thrco Mr. G. J. Anderson roso to speak—tho first of the Government party to speak for many hours.—and tho Opposition greeted him with a round of hand-clapping. What ho said wa3 mostly a reminder to the Opposition of tho absurdity of tlieir attitude in holding up a Bill for which many of their membors had voted. " Surely," ho said, " we should como to the end of tho nonsense that has been going ou for tho last twolve hours. Tho Bill is a good Bill; thoy havo supported it, and now they aro Blocking it. It scorns to mo thoro is something behind this, some political spito, which is beneath political contempt." Ho asked tho Opposition how long they tho sossion to last. ' A Point of Order. At 3.10 p.m. tho Hon. J. A. Millar raised a point of order. Ho asked whether tlio sub-clauso was a proper 0110 to bo introduced in Committee, seoing that it directly appropriated tho revenue of tho Crown.

Mr. Loo suggested that Mr. Speaker's ruling bo taken, and Mr. Millar moved accordingly. The Hon. W. F. Massey said ho did not think tho clauso was an tion.

Tho motion to report progress was passed unchallenged. . When Mr. Speaker took tho chair, Tho Hon. J. A. Millar said ho raised tho point because ho did not wish, to soo tho Committeo tako powers it had not at present. The clause was a direct appropriation, in that fees, rents, and royalties payable to tho Crown wore made bv t'lio clause receivable by private individuals. Tlio Hon. W. F. Massey said tho meinbor for Dunedin West had based his argument on wrong premises, liaving supposed that tho land was Crown land. The land at presont was Crown land but tho subclause did not refer to tho present moment. At tho time tho clauso would bo operativo tho land would bo land held in feo-simplo, and the moneys concerned would not he moneys payable to the Crown, but to tho ownor of tho land. Ho submitted that tho clauso was not an appropriation cJnuso. Mr. G. W. ltussell argued that tho clauso reserved minerals to tho Crown, and the fees, rents, and royalties to which the clauso applied would bo moneys receivable by tho Crown for its sharo in the minerals. Tho moneys would bo paid to tho owners of tho feosiniplo under tho clauso for something that was outsido of his fee-simple. Tho Hou. J. Allen argued that there was uo appropriation. Clauso 35 of the Bill provided tho owner of a liccnso to occupy land tho power to get tho freehold, exclusivo of minerals, but this did not givo the Crown tho right to go and mino tho minerals. Arrangements would have to be mado and fees paid. This clauso really limited tho amount an occupier could collect, for if the clauso had not been put in, the ownor would havo been ablo under tho Mining Act to demand moro fees. Mr. J. A. Hanan said that tho clause did not provido for a true fee-simple, and ho argued that tho clause would give to tho holder of tho land fees, 1 routs, and royalties which otherwise would havo belonged to the Crown. Tho Hon. A. T. Ngata argued that the proposed diversion from tho Crown to privato individuals of moneys ought to bo provided for only in an appropriation clauso introduced by Governor's Message. In reply to other speakers, Mr. Allen pointed out that the amending subclause did not sell the land. Tho provision under which the land was sold was introduced by Governor's Message, and this sub-clause did not add to the rights of tho freehold, but subjected liiTu rather to restrictions. Decision Reserved. Mr. Bpoakor said that Clauso 2o por-

mitted licensees in occupation of certain lands in mining districts to acquire tho fee-simple. What ho would liko to know was whether sub-clause 2a put those ownors in a hotter position as to tho receipt of theso rents than they would have been if tho sub-clause was not- added.

Tho Hon. J. A. Millar said it was quito evident that this was so. Under Clause 25 as it originally appeared in tho Bill the Crown reserved tho right to minerals, but under this sub-clause, beginning "notwithstanding anything in this section," tho Government proposed to givo away tho minerals, or rather the royalties and fees receivablo in respect of them. Ho challenged tho Prime Minister to show where in Clauso 25 ho was empowered to givo away royalties.

Tho Hon. W. F. Masscv said that it was truo that tho minerals belonged to tho Crown, and tho surface rights bolonged to tho owner of tho feo-simple. Ho believed, liowovor, that tho word "royalties" should not bo in tho clause. It was, bethought, an error on tho part of tho law draftsmen. Some compensation had to bo paid to tho owner on resumption of his land for tho purposes of mining, and under tho clauso tho compensation to be given to him in respect of the disturbance of his surfaco rights would bo the miners' rights, foes, and rents. These would bo collected by the Crown and handed over to tho ownors of tho fee-simple. Ho added that it mattered little to the Government whether tho clause was an appropriation clauso or not.

Mr. G.'W. Russell asked what would happen to theso fees if' this sub-clauso wero not passed. If without tho passago of this sub-clauso theso moneys would remain with tlio Crown, after having been collccted by the Warden and his officers, and if, as it undoubtedly did, the clauso provided for the passing over of these- moneys to tho individual owning tho fee-simple, then tho clauso was unquestionably an appropriation clauso.

Mr, Spoakor said his decision on tlio point must rest upon tho question of wliether this Sub-claiiso 2a put owners of the land in a, better position than thoy would liavo been if it liad not boon added. Tho opinions he had beard wero very conflicting, and tho question was difficult to decide offhand. Ho would rather reserve his decision if that could possibly bo done. In his own mind, there was not tho slightest doubt that if tho right of tho owner to theso royalties and rents was something over and ab'ovo what the clause conferred, then undoubtedly it was an appropriation. Ho was not, however, prepared to say at onco whether this was tho effect of tho sub-clause. Ho would liko to roservo his decision, i£ this wero possiblo. Mr. Massey: Thero is not tho slightest reason why your decision should not be deferred. Wo can proceed with tho Bill.

Tho Houso tlion went into Committee 'again.

Tha Clause Again—and Obstruction. Tho Hon. AV. F. Massey, in reply to a question as to what lie proposed to do, said that the sub-olauso could still go through tho Committoo. If tho Speaker gavo his decision that tho 'clauso was an appropriation clause, it would coaso to exist.

Tho Opposition went on to discuss tho clause again on' familiar lines. Tho obstruction brought Mr. J. 'A. Young to his feet, and ho forcefully upbraided tho Opposition for having blocked the courso of tlio Bill. It seemed to him that becauso thoy could not get their owii way, thoy, had planned to put every possiblo obstaclo in tho way of reasonable progress of business. Ho declared that tho attack on tho member for Thames had been most unfair, and tho demonstration against him would do no harm to him, but rather would raiso Mr. Rhodes in tho estimation of tlio peoplo of tlio Thames peninsula. That Letter. Mr. G. Laurenson replied to tho protest. Ho excusod tlio Opposition for their obstruction, and for their suspicion as to tho bona, fides of tho member for Thames in bringing forwarded his amendment. Mr. Massey asked whether tho letter ho had quoted referred to tho member for Thames. Mr, Laurenson said that it had.

Mr. Massey: Will the hon. goutloinan lay that, letter on tho table of the House ?

Jlr. Laurenson: I will lay tho extract which I.read.

Mr. Massey: Because I may say that tho statements made against the member for Thames are so sorious that I, as Leader of this House, can't pass thorn over. I want that letter,' or at least tho portion of it that was read. Mr. L&urenson: I am very glad tho Primo Minister is going to inquire into those allegations. Mr. Massey asked whether tho let-, tor had como direct to Mr. Laurenson or to someono olso who had handed it over to him. Mr. Laurenson: It came direct to me. • Mr. T. W. Rhodes said lio was glad that the statements mado in tho anonymous letter, "tho mean, contemptible, scurrilous letter," wero to bo inquired into. Apart from tho fact that ho was the occupier of tho land, it was nothing but a tissue of untruths. Mr. Laurenson: That's all it says. Mr. Rhodes: It says a 'great doal more, and it implies a great doal moro. I'hop'o it will bo probed to tlio very bottom, and I hope tho name of tho skunk that wrote it will como out. An hon. member: An Oppositionist. Mr. Rhodes: I don't know who ho is. Ho is uo friend of mino, anyhow. Mr. Rhodes went on to speak in support of tlio clauso which, he said, would promote tho settlement of a vast area of land, and would mako tho district prosperous. As far as tho sub-clauso was concerned ho did not think it would affect his holding, and ho had not moved it in his own interests. Mr. Speaker's Ruling. 'At 7.30 p.m. Mr. Speaker gave his ruling on tno point submitted to him on which he had previously reserved decision. Mr. Speaker said that ho was of opinion that if tho clauso was added to tho Bill it would take away from tlio Crown something it otherwise would have had, and that it was therefore an appropriation clauso. In Committeo again, . Sir Joseph Ward askod tho Primo Minister what ho proposed to do. Mr. Massey: 1 propose i,o go on with tho business as soon as members of tlio Opposition ceaso obstructing. Ho added that as a result of the Speaker's ruling tho ainondment disappeared, and that lio would later introduce a now sub-clause by Governor's Mossago. The conimittco went on to discuss tho clauso again, on general grounds. A Sorry Waste of Time. Mr. A. Harris said ho thought it was about time somebody from tlio Government sido of tho' llouso had something to say. They had been silent witnesses of a sorry waste of timo unprecedented in the history of tlio Now Zealand Parliament!;. lio wished to protest' against tlio abominable wasto of public timo and public money. Tho clause they wero discussing was ono that must appeal to anyone who bad the interests of tho country at heart, and the arguments advanced against it had been nonsensical. Anyone would think from' the arguments that tlio Government proposed to do an iniquitous thing, whereas tho fact was that tho Government proposed to deal honourably by the tenants, to do something advantageous to tho State. The Opposition's action was puroobstruction. All tlioy wanted to do was to keep tho business of tho country from going oil. 11<; hoped the Prime Minister would stand by tho Bill, and sit continuously until tho Bill was put through. Thoir

conduct was a monument to tlio incapacity and incompotonco of tlio Opposition. Ho ventured to suggest that tlio Lender of tho Opposition felt sorry ho had such an irresponsible tail, consisting of tho member for Christelmrch North and others attached to his party. "The People's Heritage.'.' Mr. P. C. Webb protested against tho monopolising of mining areas under tho freehold tenure. He said the Land Bui was an effort to "legally thieve tho people's heritage," and it would 1)0 the duty of tho Opposition to prevent tho passage of tlio Bill, and to stonewall if iiecessary.i Mr. G. W. Russell accused tho Government of trying to bribo tlio peoplo of tho Thames district in ordor to holp a weak supporter to rc-cloctiqn. He was raging against tho Government and the Bill, when Mr. K. H. Smith asked him whether ho had not voted for tho Bill. Mr. Russell: I voted for tho Bill hecause there .wero cortain machinery amendments in it which had to become law whatever Government was in power. (Derisive laughter.) Ho challenged honourable members to say on what principlo tlio Government could withhold tho freoliold from pastoral leaso tenants, when they were granting it to tho tenants of thoso mining leases. A Freeholder. Mr. T. W. Rhodes repliod to Mr. Russell's declaration that ho (slr. Rhodes) liad been returned to Parliament to support tho Opposition. "I was not elected to support him," ho said. "I was elected as a freeholder, and I stand for tho freehold every time. I certainly would not feel disposed to support, a Government of which that honourable gentleman was a member." "Crown on a Leasehold." Mr. 0. It. Wilson, referring to Mr. Russell: "Is it any wonder wo 011 this side of the Houso are freeholders when that is the typo of manga manga grown on a leasehold?" (Laughter.) Mr. Russell: I movo that thoso words bo taken down. (Laughter.) Mr. Leo: What were the wordß? Mr. Russoll: Tho member for Tauniarunui said, referring to 1110: "That is the type of maugu maugu grown on a leasehold."

Dr. Pomare: He didn't say mangu mangu at all. Mr. Russell: What did he Bay, tbenP Dr. Pomare: Ho said manga manga. Mr. ltussell: What does that mean? Dr. Pomaro: It doesn't moan anything. (Laughter.) Mr. Russell did not accept Dr. Pomaro's statement, and insisted upon the words being taken down. There was some difficulty in ascertaining what the exact words were to which exception was being taken, but finally they were committed to writing. The motion that tho words ko'takon down and reported to tho House was received by'tho Government members with a loud chorus of "Noes," and on a division tho motion was defeated by 32 votes to 20. " A Rickety Branoh." Mr. Wilson continued his speecli. Ho said that tho word manga manga meant "a rickety branch," tho sort of thing grown on the leasehold. Mr. Russell (scowling): There is no such Maori word as "manga manga." Thoro is such a word as "mangu mangu." (Laughter.) Mr. Wilson protested against _ tho member for Christehurch North vilifying members of the Government in a most abusive intemperate manner on this question of tho freohold. Mr. Wilson was asked to withdraw tho word " vilifying," and he did so. Ho went on to say more about Mr. Isitt's intemperate, unreasoning, incoherent talk, and Mr. Isitt asked:. Is the honourable gentleman discussing the clause? Mr. Fisher: Ho is cutting your claws. (Laughter.) , Mr. Wilson said the country .concerned in these leases was such that it would never bo worked properly under 21 years leasehold tenure. Tho freehold was tho best tenure, and tho majority of the' people in tho House and in the country wero emphatically in favour of it. At this stage Mr. Leo advised tho member for Grey Lynn that ho had interjected ten timcs_ in tho last three minutes, and asked him to interject not so frequently. • Tht Value of the Land. Mr. J. Bollard, whoso opinion as a land valuer had been asked for on tho value of tho land, said that if tho land would carry ono sheep to tho aero it would be worth £0 an acre, as had been suggested, but before it' would carry a sheep to tho aero a man would have to spend £G an aero on it. If tho land were offered to him for nothing lie would say, " No, thank you." If one owed a man a grudge, one could gratify it by giving him 1000 acres of it. It would ruin him.' Mr. Laurenson objected to boing rebuked by Mr. Herries, a now member, and "the most primitive 1 specimen we've ever had."' Waste of Time and Monoy. Mr. J. H. Bradnoy said ho could really see no objection to the clause, which was a special clause to deal with a special area. They had all been told that they wero taking the land away from tho " unborn millions." Ho could see littlo or no difference between leasehold and freehold. After all freehold was no moro than a short leasehold mostly, for when a man died ho still loft tho land behind for the unborn millions. He expressed' emphatically his disgust with tho methods of tho Opposition, which caused such waste of time and money, and ho was 6uro tho country would not approve of it. Tho Government had been abused, and niombors of tho Government had been accused repeatedly, 'bocauso tlicy exercised an intelligent vote on' questions and tried to do their duty; that they wero being driven into tho lobbies by tho Whips of tho party. Mr. Isitt: So they nro.. Mr. Bradney: I give that statement an absolute denial. Reverting to the clause, h$ said the conditions in the Thamos wero not similar to those in any other mining areas in New Zealand. If tho clause were passed, the Thames would bo closely settled in a very fow years. It was said that the settieinont might do harm to min'ing, but it would not bo a bad thing if there wero no more mining in tho Thames. Tho gold coming from there had, ho ventured to say, cost at least five ■ times as much as tho gold was worth. Ho concluded by entering his protest on behalf of tho people ho represented against tho great waste of time in tho House. Moro About "the Bribe." Mr. C. E. Stntham said-the impression the Opposition were trying to convey was that tho Government- wore "giving away" tho freohold—giving something for nothing. But tho fact was that the tenants would not acquire tho freehold without paying to tho State tho full value of tho State's in-' torcst in tho land. Likewise, it was incorrect to accuse tho Government of bribing a few people for votes. But if, as was alleged, tho leaseholders were in a majority, surely tho Government would bo anxious to catch tho votes of tho majority, instead of standing by the freehold. He was ashamed to think 'that the member for Christehurch North would attack tho member for Thames, ono of tho most upright and honourable members of tho House, as ho had. It had even been said that Mr. Rhodes had no right to vote on a clause in which ho was interested, hutwould Mr. Isitt say that Mr.' Brown would havo no right to vote on the Beer Duty Bill? Ho protested against the obstruction, but ho could assure tho Opposition that tho'Government'members wero unanimously in agreement that they would stay in Wellington to put

all tho Government Bills through, how* ever long tho session might bo. Mr. l'\ 11. Smith also had a littlo to' sny about obstruction. He suggested that tho Opposition wero venting their spleon 011 tho member for Thames, 011 whom they "had a set," by sticking up l'-is sub-clause. Now tho sub-clauso was gono, but still tho Opposition wero not satisfied. But if tlio Opposition wore out to kill timo, ho could kill tima as well as any of them. Ho thought) his health would stand it very well. Tho Cat Out of tho Bag? : Mr. A. H. Hiiidmarsh said ho thought tho Opposition should hold up tho Bill until thoy could force a general election 011 tho principlo in tho Bill. Tlio principle was a hugo one, and if tlio Bill passed in its entirety, he thought tho national endowments must go. lie rcpoatod that they should forco an election. Mr. Wilson: That would bo the end of you. Mr. Hindmarsh mentioned that it was absurd to say that tlio last general election turnod largely 011 tho question of tho freehold. No Government mctnboM spoko between 10 p.m. and 11 p.m., and at 11 o'clock Mr, G. W. Russell roso to liiako a speech. Tho Chairman (Mr. Bell) sounded the bell as an indication that tho specelr was his fourth, and therefore his last 011 the question, which was the adoption of Clause 25 of the Bill. Ho disputed tho record of his speeches, alleging that 0110 of the speeches counted against him had been mado prior to tho moving of an amendment since disposed of. Mr. Bell hold, however, that although tho amendment had been dealt with in tlio meantime, tho main question had beoii tho question before the House 011 all tho occasions on which Mr< Russell had spoken. Mr. ltussoll moved that progress bo reported, in order • that tlio ruling of Mr. Speaker bo taken, and tho motion was agreed to on tho voices. Mr. Speaker upheld the ruling of thai / Chairman of Committees. / Theso proceedings had occupied half' ail hour. . ■ Mr. J. A. Young spoko at 11.45 p.m. Ho arguod in reply to tlio protests of tho anti-freeholders that tho disposal of the lands was not parting with the national endowment, because immediately any of tho lands became part of tlio national endowment, ihey oould not bo parted with. It would bo in the interests of tho State rather to have tho land settled, and made productive. It was absurd to say that the Government wore "thieving from tho democracy." It was immaterial whether lands belonged to tho State or to individuals, so long as they were productive, and so long as they paid to the State their proper dues. At 12 minutes before midnight, when tho Prime Minister had gone to his 6eat at tho table, apparently with tho intention of speaking, tho Hon. A. T. Ngata raised a point of order, intercepting Mr. Young's which was making Oppositionists a littlo -uncomfortable. Protests and points of order wer«' raised 011 tho ground that Mr. Ngata's point of order was not relevant to what Mr. Young had been saying, but tho. wrangle occupied ton minutes, and tho apparent ■ object of the Opposition —to prevent the Primo Minister from speaking boforo tho adjourmnent—was acnieved. At two minutes boforo midnight the Committee adjourned until 2.30 p.m. to« day.