THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1544, 13 September 1912, Page 6

THE HOUSE.

l'J"-\ ';■ PETITIONS COMMITTEE. [ "■■ The House met at 2.30 p.m. ' Mr. H.-'J. 11. O'h'BY (Taranaki) nsked leave to move that the M to 7< Petitions •. ■■ 'Committee should bo allowed to sit that ••■:-. afternoon- (hiring , the sitting of the House. '.' ..The motion was permitted, and was '-■ agreed ,to.. : V- ■ .' ■ :;.•;;;'.;':.;-; ' ; leg|slative council bill.. : : ; ; - The'Legislative Council Bill (Mr. Mas- •■■'•' -vjpv.) --wn-i read-a first time. , .'■:■ .Mr.':.G.. WITTY (Riccnrtor.) rose to '. . speak*tb _the motion that the Bill he read ■;■'■ ' a.'first.'time, but was informed by tli3 Speaker that no question could bo raised ■.-' ,at.,t'h.at. stage, lie added that the lion. :'■' . member could have spoken on the previgus , ■ •• motion, that leave be given to introduce ;■■: the Bill;-.. . ... ' • ■ i THE FRANDI CASE. H. Atmore (Nelson) asked the.Min-. .',\ : ,iister lot. Defence whether he would lay '-.'; the papers iu connection with the I'randi ..case Sn .the table of tho House before tho Befenco estimates wore-taken. " .V'lThe'Hon.' J. ALLEN snid he would ento do so. • ■"■'■'"■"""'■]'"''JHi BEALEY WORKS. •'' ' AIINKTER- DENIES AN ALLEGATION. ■ Tha'Hori' W. FRASER (Minister for Public Works) said he wished to correct ,a■ statement made in an anonymous letter in tho. "Lyltelton Times" of September 7. •I'ei'e'fencewas liiado in it to the low wajjes .'priid .by the present Government to the nien uii the '■ Bealcy Flat railway works. Tho wages the men':were iu fact receiving, Knid Mr.Traser, were earned, on the same .'rates as had been p"aid by the former '' ■'"■•(jovern.nip.nt. 'lire engineer had furnished "n'Teport which shored that among tho 39 ■ .': gangs on the works, the average wage eiil'ned' per hour was Is. 4d. some had earned as much as 2s. per hour. He knew that the conditions at the Bealcy wore by- no means drawing-room condi- " tions.- For - all the winter the weather had been very bad, the men had suffered very '»re,at discomfort, and the work had /been' pretty hard. But the conditions • they were labouring under now were - certainly no / worse than. formerly, because instructions had been given to the Department to issue timber to the men To niako floors for their tents. Evidently the intention was to show that the pre- ■ jient Government were paying lower wages " than had been the mle under the lato Government. ..This statement was abBolutolv contradicted by' the engineer. Mr. "G. WITTY (Kiccarkon) asked what were the .weekly and monthly vages actually earned by tb<> men. The wages quoted Vere for tho hours actually worked, t,ik- ■ ing .no account of timo lost for wet. The Horu W, FEASER (Ifiniste? ht

Public Works) said ho could not give the information at once, but ho pointed out that the' work was contract work, and that tho Government could not be blamed for not paying' tho men when they did The Hon. R. M'KENZIB (Motueka) said that if the hon. gentleman was going to quote anonymous letters and reply to them in the House, ho would get enough of them. He had no doubt that conditions at Bealey were just what they were when he was in office, but' the present Government seemed to bo timid. It was not the business of a Cabinet Minister to reply in. tho House to anonymous letters. "■ ' The Hon. W. FRASER said that no one in this country had less regard for the statements of anonymous correspondents than he had. But it was dangerous to givo a lie half an hour's start, and in this case the lie had had a longer start. Having .dealt with this statement, he was not going to bother about any others that appeared. It had been stated in a number of the public prints that tho Government had lowered wage's , , and he considered that ho had a right to slate publicly that the accusation had no' truth in it. He had been accused of faying that public works should be constructed wholly by large contract. He had never said such a thing in his life. The Hon. R. M'Kenzie said that the hon. gentleman should have replied to tho statement in. the paper in which it apFC Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that it was gratifying to hear that' the Minister had supplied timber for- ten'floors. Hβ took this as'.an indication .that tlie Government intended to retain the system of co-operative iworks.-. Oiice ■ more, the Government had' backed down. Mr. T. H. DAVEY' (Christchurch East) asked whether the -Minister had declared himself,in favour of the contract system. Small Contracts Favoured. Mr. FRASER said that he did not believe in the co-operative system as it had. been carried out in this country for some . years past. He believed in the small contract system. Mr. G. W. FORBES (Huninui) thanked the Minister, for providing ivooden floors' for.the.tents of the Bealey workmen, ' ,"•' '■"". BILLS IN-.COMMITTEE.- ~ ,-.;". GOLD DUTY AMENDMENT.' ■ ' The House went into Committee on'the Gold Duty Amendment Bill, in charge ol the Hon. -F. M. B. Fisher. This measure aims at exempting from the.payment ol gold duty tho sweepings of jewellers' shops which are sent Homo, in order that the gold they contain may' be extracted. ..-The Minister, proposed to amend the ■'Biir-by'Tnakins itapply tb'-deritists apd other persons, as well as to jewellers. .. Tho Hon. B, M'KENZIE (Motueka) objected that with this amendment the Bill might pave the way for the export ol stolen gold. Gold stealing was quite common all over the world where" gold mining was carried on. The Hon.-F. 31. B. FISHER said, that the danger mentioned could be guarded against by regulation. ■ >. Messrs. J. Vigor Brown and T. W; Rhodes supported the Hon. R. -M'Kenzie in asking tho Minister to restrict the operation of the Bill to jewellers and dentists. . ' . . ■ Mr. G., LAURENSON; supported the amendment as it stood. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) eaid. that criminals would not resort to the clumsy methods of exporting stolen gold suggested by those members who opposed the amendment. Tho Hon. F. M. B. FISHER said' that he had consulted the Department and had ascertained Hint "jeweller* and dentists'"' would.not cover the whole of those who exported gold sweepings. The total amount remitted to any one person in a year under, this Bill would not exceed £10. .Mr. WILFORD said'that it was impossible to estimate what business might grow up if the Bill were passed. ■■ V The Hon. R. M'KENZIE insisted that there was a real danger that the Bill . might facilitate gold stealing. If the Bill passed with the words "or other persons" included, a new gold' stealing industry would bo \started in this country. He did not object to any class of persons who worked'goM being-included in the Bill, but each such class should be specifically indicated. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said that members were "boggling" over this 'Bill. "Boggling" was getting into a bog. The Bill did not propose to enable any additional sweepings to be exported, biit aimed only at exempting fromi gold-duty the sweepings that were exported. -This did not pave the way for any profitable occupation. . The amendment was approved on a division by 33 votes to 23. WANGANUI BRIDGE. The Wanganui Bridge Amendment Bill was. committed. The Hon. W. FRASER (Minister for Public Works) explained that the Bill was-in effect a.local Bill, but the House had agreed that' it should bo treated as a public Bill in order to facilitate its passage. A long series .of . objections were raised to tho procedure by members of tllio Opposition, who ' alleged that it was setting up a dangerous precedent. The Minister- explained that there-were already, precedents in plenty for the Governments action. Ho explained that) he had not himself, drafted the Bill, having found it prepared when ho took o/lice. In committee all the provisions relating to the new bridge to be Isuilt containing a turntable wore struck out. The present turntable has not been opened for twenty years. Progress was reported on the Bill with these amendments. OHINEMURI SILT. The Waihou and Ohinemuri Rivcre Improvement Amendment Bill (tho Hon. W. Fraser) was committed. (The Bill makes a mere machinery amendment in the principal Act, which was passed to enable the Government to clear the water-courses, and so give the settlers in the district relief from the silt nuisance). The Bill was reported without amendment. A. AND P. SOCIETIES. The Agricultural and Pastoral Societies Bill (the Hon. W. F. Massey) was committed. Tho Bill proposes to allow. A. and P. societies more liberty in disposing of their surplus lands by leaso or salo. A specinl clause gives extended powers to tho Dtago Society. The Bill wai reported with an additional clause empoworing the Governor to change the name of any society making application. BILLS FROM COMMITTEE, When the House resumed at 7.30 p.m., the Gold Duty Amendment Bill and tho Wangauui Bridge Amendment. Bill aud the Agricultural and Pastoral Societies Amendment Bill we're set down for ronsideration of amendments on next sitting day. Tho Waihou and Ohinemnri J'iver.s Improvement Amendment Bill wn.j set down for third, reading on next sitting .- d H» " " /

OF REPORTING. Mr. T. H. DAVKY (Christ-church Bast) mentioned to the Speaker tho discussion which Jiad taken place during tho afternoon on tho fact that tho Standing Orders hud been suspended to allow tho Minister for Public Works to take chorjjo of tho Wnnguiiui Bruise Amendment Bill as ' ii Public Bill although it would otherwise have been dealt with a.s a Local Bill. Tho debate on this subject had not been reported in Hansard. He suggested that such debates would serve us a valuable guide (o members in future and should T>o reported. Tho SPEAKER said Hint there was no doubt to his mind that any discussion that took place either on the introduction of a Bill or on a motion to suspend tho Standing Orders, should be reported. Ho would give instruction to the Chief of the Hansard Staff that these discussions should bo reported in future. The Hon. W. FRASER said that he was not responsible for what had not appeared in Hansard. What he was responsible for was the introduction of the Bill in a regular and proper manner. Everything was regular and in order so far as ho was concerned. Mr. DAVEY explained that he had merely suggested the reporting of such discussions in Hansard. LOCAL BODIES' SUPERANNUATION. THE NATIONAL PROVIDENT FTJXD. The Hon. A. L. HERDMANmoved tho second reading of the Local Authorities' Superannuation Amendment Bill. He said that the Bill was intended to make the principal Act simpler. At the present time there was a difficulty in the way of. local bodies commencing superannuation schemes in that older employees would not become contributors unless the law permitted tho local bodies to make them some substantial concession. The Bill would malco it easier for local bodies to commence their superannuation schemes. It would impose no financial burden on the State, although the local bodies themselves would be put to some additional charge. Mr. Davey: Have many local bodies taken advantage of the present law? Mr. Herdman: No, I.do not think so. He added that the Wellington Harbour Board had found it impossible to start their scheme unless the law was amended. Sir Joseph WARD (Awarua) said that. the_ amendment was very important, but ho would ask 1 the hon. gentleman to consider the compulsory grouping of local bodies throughout the , . country. The smaller local bodies could not'individually establish superannuation schemes-, iheir employees were so few that .1 sufficient sum of money could not be set aside to provide for them for life. Provision should be made for-the local bodies taking out annuities, and the grouping of a number of bodies, would make the premiums lighter. ' *" Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) said that unless State assistance was given or com-> fmlsory -insurance brought" iii, very .few ocal bodies would take advantage of the Bill. >Tho difficulty was. that the local body employees who were recpiving tho highest salaries were nearest to super-annuation-age; ■'■ •■•■■■-.<. D - BUDDO. (Kaiapoi) said that the Bill, as drawn would be of no service to small local bodies.' Some such grouping schejne as had been suggested by the member for Awarua would have to bo adopted. It would be wise to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. Government Subsidy Proposed. Mr. T. H. DAVEY. (Christchurch East) recommended .that local body superannuation should be subsidised out of tho Consolidated Fund. If it was right to subsidise the superannuation ■funds- of; State, employees, it must, be'equally right' to .subsidise •municipal siipcrannimtioii. The- payment of contributions': 'into-' a municipal superannuation fund'should be mndo Comp/ilsory. ».-•-■■ The Hon. Jas. Allen: Will you agree to that for everybody ? . Mr. Davey said that he was speaking of this Bill. The superannuation schemes should'bo broadened to provide for payments in sick and riiatornity cases as well as retiring allowances. > , ■ ' National Provident Fund and Superannuation. ' :- Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that he did not think much would be effected by the Bill as it stood. There seemed to bo a lack of enthusiasm on tho part of local bodies. A similar feeling , on the part of the general public was indicated by the fact that only about a thousand people had as yet joined "the National Provident Fund, although its advantages had been made known throughout the length and breadth of the country. He had suggested while in office that local bodies and established private firms should place their staffs under the benefits of the National Provident Fund; Mr. G. W..FORBES (Hurunui), agreed with previous speakers that little could bo expected from this legislation. Nothing useful could be done in promoting superannuation until a comprehensive Locnl Government Bill had been brought °The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN said that ho disagreed with those members who had said that this legislation would not be beneficial. It would at any rato assist large local bodies which had ionsiderable funds of their 'own and large staffs. The suggestion that use should be made of the National Provident Fund commended itself to him. But if it were adopted the local bodies and not the State should he responsible for the payment of premiums. • , ' The Bill was read a second time. AUCKLAND EDUCATION RESERVE. CLAIMS $F PRIMARY EDUCATION. The Hon. Jas. ALLEN 1 moved the second reading of the Auckland Education Reserves Bill. Sir JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) pointed out that the Bill made provision for tho support of higher Secondary and technical education, but not for the support of primary education. In his opinion primary education should have first claim. Mr..H. POLAND (Ohinemuri) contended that the endowment disposed of in the Bill should be devoted to the support of education generally instead of for the purposes propb-ed. . Mr. J. BOLLARD (Eden) agreed to some extent with the .last speaker. When tho endowment—tho old Supreme Court site at Auckland—was set aside, it was generally understood that it was to bo for the benefit of primary odncation. However, as: the Government had to find money for the support of primary education* it. did not matter much. He did not think it was a fair division all the same. ■ It should have all gone to the support of primary education, for which it was intended. Mr. A. St. MYERS (Auckland East) said that it would now be inimical to tho whole question to raise the question of allocation. Primary education would not suffer and there' were reasons why special provision should be inade for other branches "of education. Mr.' A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) said, that the Bill did not commend itself to him.: It disposed of an endowment, situated in his constituency, and valued at .£250,000. It was an attempt to alienate the heritage of the people for tho benefit of the sons of the rich, while nothing was proposed for the benefit of tho sons and daughters of tho poor. Ho would oppose the Bill. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) regretted that no more had been done for the Auckland Technical College. He submitted that it would be better to board country boys at the city technical colleges rather than build small colleges in little country towns. Mr. T. W. RHODES (Thames) supported the-Bill. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchnrch South) said that the Bill was an object lesson in the value of educational endowments. The Hostel System. Mr. O; M. THOMSON (Dunedin North) supported the Bill and derided what had been said about "sons of tho rich" as a method of appealing for votes. Tho tendency was to, make education free from the primary schools to tho university. The secondary schools were filled, with pupils of all classes, most; of whom entered by examination. The universities also were open to the poorest if they had the ability to pass into them. Admission to tho technical schools was equally easy. In his experience ho had known .1 number of instance in which students had risen by their own ability, from the lowest primary srade to the highest grade in tht- univßi'-ity. Tic strongly approved the proposal.in the Bill to establish a hostel or hostels. Thi? would meet one of tie greatest difficulties atjjresent ?*•

periencod iu administering the education system, by providing pupils and students with good lodgings at a moderate cost. Hi-. Thomson also commended the hostel system on the ground that it would have a. good moral influence and wouljl givestudents tho benefit of a scholastic atmosphere, comparable to that which existed at tho English public schools. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that it was due to the farsightedness of the pioneers of Cnnterbiu-y and Otago that rieli endowments were set. aside for higher education in those provinces. Auckland was not so fortunate, and the University College there had subsisted/ mainly by State grants. But if Auckland proposed with the money to be made available tho endowment to.establish a hostel, to enable the college to become a residential one, tho Housewould again be asked :to vote moneys for a properly-equipped university building. The Auckland people ought to ba told that the first thing to be done, with .the money must be the erection and '.equipping of a college. He was of 'opinion that the secondary education system might have some day to be overhauled. He believed there was waste of money in some secondary institutions,' and that same cf it niight bo saved for expenditure en piimary education. , Mr. J. A. YOUNG (Waikito) coi-sratu-lated the Minister on .laving introduced the Bill. He combated the suggestion that secondary schools and institutions for higher education wero only for the rich. The fact was that high schoois wero open now not for the rich, but ior oil those wlin. were worth educating, those who had.won free places fiom'tho primary schools. The case under review showed the value, of endowments, it had been said, but it did more; it proved the value of town endowments. Hβ knew of one endowment' of 18,000 acres, l.eld by the Auckland University, which produced .£lO a year in Tent, and another cf 340 acres, which produced £7 10s. It vas impossible, he contended, to get considerable m«nues from endowments leased for short terms. A Vigorous Reply. The Honl\James ALLEN, in reply, said that as Minister for Finance he would be pleased to accept the advice of the two Auckland member who had urged that the money derived from this reserve should be devoted to primary education. Would they,be willing that all the moneys should be taken from Auckland and paid into the general revenues? Surely these Auckland patriots were not sincere in their criticism! Mr. J. Bollard:. Yes, I am, for one. Mr. Myers: I strongly object. Mr. Allen said he would be disloyal to Auckland and disloyal to his trust as Minister for Education if he accepted the suggestion, and he would not accept it. He \vns as keenly alive as anybody to the value 'of primary education, recognising that it was (he fundament upon which our whole system was raised, but he did not think all this money should be taken into the general revenue; ..'-, . Mr. -J.- Bollard:'That's the honest way to do-it. : ■ ■ ' ■ . •'•• . Mr. Allen argued that there, was no ground for .contention that nothing was being done in this'Bill tor technical education. Many of the,classes at the university, and at the secondary schools for . \ghich provision would be made were really technical—agriculture,, for instan-ce. There was no ground for this complaint on behalf of. the free section of our. education system. The secondary ..schools were open, and the universities were open to' the poorest in the land. That had been the trend in this country, and if the bursaries now on offer were hot.sufficient the Government hoped to be'able to increase them as the. country, could.afford it, cur universities and technical schools: for the rich.?,... Who said/so?.' Who."dared l tb say so.-.in this.cmth.try?... He told.of .tho case of; one boy whose , parents were 1 poor who had gorio to tho. High'. School by his own effort, gone to the university by his own effort, and finally became a Rhodes scholar by his. own effort. Thn Auckland ease was an object-lesson in endowments and tho control of them. They were so much more 'profitable in the city. Ho deprecated tho cry for primary education alone. Auckland would bo a very big city, but it would never be a really great city if'sufficient attention was not paid to secondary education. The influence of a university would be a very, very powerful influence for. good in the city. Ho did not think, however, that the objections to the Bill were really seriously meant. He thought that if our rural endowments were exchanged for urban lands, the revenue would be much greater than it now was, and settlement would not be retarded by the bad shortterm leases under which , the lands were now let. ■ Mr. Ilusssll: Yet you are going to make no alteration. : Jlr. Allen assured the honourable gentleman that thero would be aii alteration, and the Government would ,get lands which would increase in value much more rapidly than those at prcsfint held. The second reading was carried on the voices. SHIPPING AND SEAMEN. A TECHNICAL BILL. Tho Hon. F. M.' B. FISHER .Minister for Marine) moved tho second reading of the Shipping and Seamen Amendment Bill, which he explained was somewimt technical in character. The Bill was tho outcome of the Maritime Convention, held a few years ago, and the first twelve clauses of the Bill wero for the purpose of bringing New Zealand law into line with the Imperial law. Clause 2 defined the liability of each ship in.a lollision. Section 7 provided that the 'master or person in charge of a,ship should, if ho could do so without danger to his own ship, crow, and passengers, render assistance to every person, even if such ierson is n. subject of a-foreign State at war with his Majesty, found at sea in danger of being lost. A master failing to do so would be considered to commit a crime. Another clause provided fer the apportionment of salvage. Clause 12 extended the provisions of the Bill to ships belonging to the Government, subject to the provisions of the Crown Suits Act. Sinco the drafting of the Bill, npresentations had been made to him that further amendments were required. These amendment's had been considered by the Crown Law Officers, and would be submitted to' members before the Bill was committed. These amendments wculd provide that the Superintendent of Marino might enter into an agreement with a seaman at one port which would be binding upon him when ho joined a ship at another port. Provision was also being made to cmble chief stewards to engage stewards. The diet scale on ships woufd be slightly amended. Mr. G. LATJRUNSON. (Lyttelt;yi) said that a clause in the original Act provided that the desertion of seamen should be punished bV imprisonment, without the option of a fine. He would suggest that au amendment should be inserted giving this option. The Minister promised to consider the ■' suggestion. . « The Bill was read a second time ] When the i:*jct -tern w.is called en, The PRIME MINISTER said rial. re 1 had pleasure in . acknowledging, that the } House had dqne a very go:d d.i.v's wrrk. 1 Ho moved tho idjourn-nont'acccidinply. The House rose at i'U5 p.;;i. "•. • . ( THE ARCHIBALD LECTURES. J Miss Archibald will lecture in the \ Wesley Hall this afternoon on "How to i Tell Stories to Children." At 7 o'clock ( thero will be a demonstration on how i to conduct a preparation class for the t primary department. At 8 o'clock Mr. t Archibald, will ■ give his ' lecture ■ on f "Adolescence." On Saturday there will (, be demonstrations by full, classes of I children and young teachers, showing r how beginners and primary classes should o hs conducted. About 00 children and 20 r teachers are being trained by Miss Back- J house and Miss Archibald for this pur- r pose. On Sunday, after church, Mr. c Archibald will lecture in tho Opera. <; House. . . f . c . When breathing through the nose is C . difficult as the result of a Cold, or Nasal Catarrh, then speedy relief can be obtained by inhalging "NAZOL" for a few moments through a Nazol Inhaler. The effect of free breathing after- thestuffi. a ness is delightful.—Advt. , . J