THE HINE CHARGES.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 952, 20 October 1910, Page 5

THE HINE CHARGES.

" INDECISION AND VACILLATION." GRUMBLINGS BY MINISTERIALISTS "PREMIER SHOULD STICK TO HIS PARTY." INQUIRY BY JUDGES ORDERED. There ■was an interesting debate in the | House last night when, the report of, the Hine Allegations Committee, which recommended that' the charges should, be heard by two' Judges sitting as a Royal Commission, was brought down. The Prime Minister eaid that after the charges had been made he moved for an inquiry by Judges. He wished to make it clear why he had done so. When Mr. Hine first made the charges ho tried to surround' them with an air of mystery and gravity by his vagueness as to the nature of the • alleged offences, and the identity of the alleged offenders which reflected v. on' every member of the present House - and' the' past Houses; of Parliament. • .'/As an outcome of. the refusal of. Mr. Hine to give the names, it; allowed •suspicions imaginations to think of tlie worst, accusations, even . alienees covered by the brand of Tammanyism,' and left grave snspicions applicable to members of past Houses and the present House. It was, very unfortunate that grave charges' of Tammanyism wore made in this House so'often and so airily. The Proper Tribunal, But—

Ho wished to emphasise the point that if a tribunal were to be set up to inquire into any oharges which might be made from time to time involving. indefinite accusations of Tammanyism, ,it wonld in all probability mean that a permanent tribunal should be. ; rot. up -as an established institution to sit all the j'ear round. He personally declined to discuss the erection of a tribunal • unless these charges were - made definitely in their character and application* < and finally :failing to obtain publicly or. pri : vately from Mr. Hine definite ..'charges! land names, he had proposed to have the -matters referred, in the ..first, instance, .to. the Lands Committee. He believed at the tine that that was the proper tribunal. The offences alleged were; not .offences known to law. They in no sense penal .offences.. . : Admittedly : they were offences' against Parliamentary - pro-: priety,- and -the proper tribunal for, tne ; r trial was a Parliamentary-. Committee. Reason, practice, and tradition' all agreed . that the • misconduct here alleged shouldbe tried by.fellow members of the .House to which the members charged belonged, or once; belonged. . But the Opposition press immediately, took exception. to' the course which he,': suggested. ■ The,: Gov-; eminent • was ■ accused:; .of trickery' and .of seeking : a cowaidly - defence by invoking .a : partisan , tribunal. He had ' then moved : that a: special committee, be appointed. The proposal 'didvnot escape the same class" of criticism; Again, "assertions were made of' partisanship ; - again;'- the; personnel-', of,. the,' comniittee was analysed to show its partisanShip, : and the err for an inquiry by judges-was as loud as ever. It was eaia that members, would be forced to shut their eyes to the truth, and be led to protect -the guilty at. the sacrifice' of all manly principles. Such criticism was an insult to the men ■ who: ,composed, the committees and to Parliamenti itself. If the real motive for 'the trial. was to get at,-the facts, why was the attack ■60 persistently made in regard to the personnel of the committees?' ' He wonld direct attention : to the' fact : that ono of the alleged offenders belonged to the Upper House.. He, was positive, that when the 1 , charges were.-first 'made' Mr. Hine did not include that one, among; them; A . committee of the House could 1 not try that charge.. He. was of opinion, however, that the charge- should be investigated.' . ■ y ii- - '

: Other Reasons for the Change. If it had gone before the committee the chairman jiwould have tad .to rule that it could not be heard. : >'

Mr. Hanau: .He would havo had no option. - ■

. Continuing, Sir Joseph said that he was not going, to be placed in' the position of laving it said that the-Government was responsible, in any way for that charge not ibeini? heard. ; -It .was, perfectly clear that another, courso should, bo taken. : He , was, 1 - however, . certain''that he. had adopted; the right course in the: first instance, and .that tho. proper tribunal in such a case' was ,a' eody - composed' of. membcrs. (Hear, hears.) But he declined that, when' : he - saw what: he' looked upon' as 6omevrhat discreditable tactics—a suggestion - that the ■ Gpvernment of the day had some fear 'over establishing a: commission of two judges. When fault was found with both committees, he was not going to be placed in the position of allowing it to be said that: there was reason for ■ not appointing an inquiry .of; judges..-' /Thoso who clamoured ' for such n commission were now declaiming most against the proposal; It, was perfectly correct that no cnargo against the Government, had ; been made by Mr. Hine. But' as : the outcome of what, he' called party -bitterness, it was important' that <• the'., matters :■' should:; bei investigated: by. hvo Juflges.;;. There ' was another' reason why • the. course should be followed. After Mr. Hine-made his vague charges the London : 'Times'' published a cable on : the matter. As a . result, tho charges stood '.at - the moment 'as a reflection upon. every-member of the -House. ' Mr. Laurehsori: It is a scandal. , Sir Joseph went on to say that indirectly- tho matter might- affect the credit of the country. So -that when the matter was finally cleared; up' it should bo by two Judges, for they would bo above and beyond any political -interference. . Mr. Poole: And tho result sent Home. Sir ■ Joseph : Yes. : In conclusion, Sir Joseph said that if the names had been ..given "in: the first" in-' stance an investigation.iwould have been ordered. Mr. Field: Would the Judges have the power to hold the inquiry?.:..Sir Joseph: If it .ia 'found' that-:they havo not, th'e .power'"will ; bo .taken. ,'

, Scope of Order of Reference. ;. Mr. Fraser (Wakatipu) Said he was originally of opinion that the charges should bo heard by the tribunal it was now proposed to set up.,;. He did not think the: Premiei- - was right in saying that the personnol of the Special: Commit.' tee was referred to 'during tho : debate.. " ' Sir Joseph Ward: It was referred to by the Opposition press. : . , . Mr. Eraser said he liad nothing to do with that. • What •. was said; during ; the discussion—and he said so himself—was that, "however fair, the Committee might be, and : however well it might do its duty, the public would be bound to condemn it before it had • commenced its duty. The public would say that one side had a majority, and the matter was settled. Ho asked , the Prime Minister what was going to bo referred to -, tho Judges. Was-it the'charges formulated by the member for' Stratford, or Would the order of reference admit new charges of a similar nature? It was only fair now that Mr. Hine had formulated his charges, that if any other-charges were to be heard they should :be formulated in tho same manner as Mr. Hine's had. It would 'flofc be fair to allow anyone to make charges at any time. If the Judges were simply to hear the charges made by Jfr. Hine, die (Mr. Fraser) had nothing more to say, but if the reference was to be left open it was not fair to Mr. Hine. Sir Joseph Ward said that when asking that the. Committee should bo set 'up ho had: asked that in addition to the four charges - made, byi .Mr. Hine, any other oharges that might' bo : made should be heard,; He proposed,-in Submitting these to. the/Snpreme 'Coiirt| : ''-to": do'oxaetly the sartie,' and to [ask the Judges to' investigate the foul' cliargeSj-and-any other; that might bo made. . • , ■ Mr, Frasor said that before the Committee,.wos .fel; up anyone who had anjH ohargeS to make. Should mako'them to tie Committee that already heai'd Mr. Hino'e charges. . ■ ■■ .-' . ; Sir Joseph Ward said he did not think it would be unfair to Mr.- Hine; to allow

' Mr. Praser: Can Mr. Hine make fins' ] ther charges if he-wishes? ' Sir Joseph Ward: Mi'. Hine can makß' • 3 as many charges as he likes. : 1

"Back to the Fold." : i Mr. Horries (Tauranga) said he -wast only too glad, without going into bygossa, i' that the members of the committeehad/ come to the conclusion they had arrived.-; at. That position should have been: adopted at the start. However, ,thoy were always glad to receive a wandering, sheep back to the fold, and they were' glad to see that the Prime Minister hast oome to see that what was right is right .' In his opinion the Prime Minister 6houldi submit a draft of tho order of referencer to the committee, for its approval. Hiai Bxcellehey tho Governor might submit": an order of reference .entirely different': to tho one the oommittee hadi in mind; - . nnderstood a point had been m Committee as Co whether the com--mission would be ultra vires, as the/commission, set up to inquire into the Ohine--mun: licensing election''had been-found:: to be.

:. The Prime Minister said he did riot propose to tahe the course of :" referring the matter baek to the committee. Ho propped to write to the Chief Justico' next, day, forwardjng the report of thocommittee, and asking him to agree to two Judges being appointed a Royal Com-. ' mission to investigate: certain' charges,' • On receipt of the reply, ho proposed to recommend the Executive to appoint tha- : two. Judges a commissioii.: • In the ordinary' - course. that report woiild come ; before - .Parliament. If there \i as absence of ,v : power to enable,the dmrse proposed tobe carried out, the Houte would be asked to legislate to enable ti lis to be done. . Mr., Arnold (Dunediri j Central) said h« v was glad the Prime Minister had chosentho course that was proposed. .

Mr. Russell Criticiset the Premier; : Mr. Russell (Avon) slid thst he' ro gretted .having: to. ,findj;fault; with tb® ' attitude now taken upp'by the* Primo : Minister. To his inindj the Special Comi X mittee set 1 up was eminently suited : for 1 the purpose- tor which J; was established. ■: No precedent could be/quoted for inquiry by, Judges._ : He was surprised that the Prime Minister ehouldnow accept a pro-, posal which he formerly i asked his pari/'' to vote against In , jhis . regard ■ th» ■ Prime Minister .was Vnot'.' treating • his ' party fairly. The fact,tliat the committee ; included three, 'leading 1 members of tho": ■ Opposition was sufficient to 'havo ■ made < it - command the confidence of the : - couritry. He : did : not. :| agree .that." the 1 : .order.- of reference could \ relato to '• charges other than 1. those.' brought ' ' by Mr. Hine.,;.The committee only recommended that those matle- bv Mr. Hine should be investigated jjby - the. Judges. ' He was not going to bs mealy-mouthed, about;-the chaises.'". they. made, Mr., Hine; said • th at -.they,- were 'of-' fences;; involvingV'corruplfcion "of : a". most ";.;, violent character; that tjiey. were charges' : amounting' ,to : . .Tammanyism; which was ;. honeyeomoing^this'Parliament.' jßut- ; sooner.. were they formulated than they.;':!' fizzled out. ;; They xiesolve< 1 themselves into 1 -■ the questions: What cririie has been committed, and what punishment could 'be'imposed?, It ;was only question asto whether any member hail been guilty of parliamentary impropriety—whether ther f: : had- overs top jM) the. fineljlftie.of-delicate';' 1 judgment which should determine a memher s. . relations with ' the;,.Government."':'s There .was. no, charge v;hich would result i ; in.one of the :inenvli«ngfbronghtibefor«';'i ■a.; court.-- Were ■ the Jndges going to ■ try' . tho.charges? Might notl;the*Judges-say^ that they knevr of no ])rcc<xiont -,v-]iich justified; Parliament : in-. tiassing over the v charges to them? It had; to be borne in mind-; that the. Premier .'was- now,' creating.*anvimproper precedent.: !N T ext year somo - member mi^ht,. bring,,'a. dharge'of'impro-.: priety r " of ;. r lifo against -. a]iothermember. Then it might happen iihat the Hons# might ba asked to set up 1 a Royal Commission of two Judges toinvestigate the..matter. If -this was ' not' a criminal'. charge, .why should ithe Jpdges be' asked --- <o j decide a question of jthe, kind ?. ;;.y A Bad. Precedent. ' The precedent, was onii whiah misfit! occasion pain to . any moriiber in the. fo-l ture. If:, tho Premier, hail stood to ...thai, committee he would liavo- hr.d (worr- pre—-: cedent; at his- bade. - The Premiej wra < quite :right - in. saying thiit : a. of the House:: could not ] inquire - into a ~> charge against -'.a- member, jbf ,tho: Council, ?*; But could nottho...Legislative. Counoil) r have est ..up, d:'committee I to'; inquire/iito'fi that charge? If : that chUrge ; and'- those.' against tlio hvo ex-meiribe S'.were eliimr.ated, what- would be the-position? Tho two ex-members had been before their H? constituents, and . were.: now. - from political" life. .InHh<|: various casesKJ Parliament (k)uld not impose any/penalty; -• at -.ill. The Premier was ilow suggesting , something in: the nature o£id ; .roving "'com--y mission. Was the man inithe street now', to :.be allowed -to, bring any! charge VMcli-7" 'he : liked? Was any-man who had .paid a'L ; : commission to a member ' to be: allowed , to bring a. charge? - : The question was: *'' ; - whero was the inquiry,by Judges to bo-, gin, and iwhere;was it tojend? If the Premier agreed to the appDintment of a ro-rag: commission,- he taking upon . himself a great responsibility. • As the . Premier expected the party 'to stand loyal to him, he should stand loyal to them. -. He was expressing' the opinion, of .r large i Jiumber of members wfen': he -saidthat ;'., the: charges'.should be .left|tß a Committee. The question of the 'Judges ' being- appointed should ; only have ; been bibught. forward: if' the committee:; found it»lr;.UM , matter -which':it' was investigating.' l ' ' '.g: Mr. . Fisher OVellington Central) • said he'would like to refer to 'the -contradietoriness; of Mr. Rusell's. statements. 1 In, the first place,, Mr., Russell had said that no offences liad, to his- mind, 'been committed. But then iii; the" nest .breath* v ho. had said that two of them, had air ready been punished by' their constitni .* ents. He agreed with Mr. Russell that . i the charges ..did'.not-/involve-; a : legal' offence. . . Voucher Case Revived. : It was.strango that the Premier should ; . put. forth the plea that one of tho charges involved; a member of the. Legislative":;Council. Might he remind him-that not- - I many years ago tho Legislative. Council set up n Committee to deal with a charge - I'brought- against ; one r o£-.its-.members? Ho thought that" the ordor of reference should ' be submitted to the .House for. its &p-, | proval. : As.' regards / th"ei Vbucher.: : .Com-.i-, ; mis3ion, the House was not consulted in [ the matter of, the order i . The Hon. T. Maokenzie said that the! line of action proposed by the Premier | was justified by the 'altered : circumstances. As the Committee was :dis.credited. and the : whole groundwork was changed 6ince the oharges were made, the - Premier was now doing the right tiling. .'. Miv Hogan (Wanganui) . complimented Mr. Kussell on. his. outspokenness.on?they matter. ' He. agreed,-with Wrn.: to a. great extent • For himee'.f, he had always be., lieved. that; the inquiry- should be by a Committee of tho House. What did tho charges amount 'to ? : Receiving commission on tho sale of properties. If waa ;-' a question whether a member who was a • land -agent was not entitled to'. commis-;;. : . sion. :. : The. charges;. miglit "havo been, struck out by, the Committee. It could then refer the charge against the Hon. T. IC. Macdonald to. the' Legislatire Council. -: Then' tho remaining, charge,: that; against Mr. Eaihau, should be heard by a Committee of the House- ,-■ Ho would -advise: , the. Premier, to. take no notice o!= Opposition press criticism. 1 • Mr. Lang (Manukau) congratulated tho Prime Minister on the position he had now, taken up. Mr. T. E. Taylor (Christchurch North) did "not think that, as a practice, Judges -w of the Supremo Court should , be made a . , court of appeal, in a matter of the kind. We'should-try and isolate the' Judges of the Dominion as far as politics were concerned. At ■ the same timo ;he did" hot )' regret, having 'voted. to refer this matter to the Judges. He was sorry the Government had. laidthemselves open' to ■'. = charges of -indccision and vacillation in • tho eyes of the country. Honour of Parliament. . If Mr. Hine proved that certain, meisK v bers of this Parliament or certain per-sonß-.'formerly members of Parliament liad undoubtedly: used their position as suggested, he would not only havo deserved woll of Parliament, but of tho country. ' Wo ai'6, said Mr. Taylor, quite justified in Setting up a standard - of honoul' for ■ mombors-.of: Parliament that should be ; considerably higher than that set up for tho - man in tho street. :There was no punishment provided for actions of; the kind; but if the- report of the Judges showed ' that members of Parliament had taken • rewards, lie hoped that at the first opjiortunity after the: decision: of 'the : Court was' available, Parliament , would ' .'piiaa j ' .some law making such on action tm Uio

■ part: of any member", illegal. The ; . tive. should have no' power to modify the ' order of reference laid down in tho reimport,",;':;;,'.:;;; -* ; - Sir Joseph Ward; said he, had no, ob- ;:: jeotjon to •,submittiiig ; the .order of ; referVence , that would . ; final.ly .go,!"befot6 . .the Judges, to Parliament. r 'Wright. (Wellington South) said , "tb'at-'.lie must '■ compliment' Mr. : Russell :.! 'on the fact - that, they htid' not ohanged their original viows. |V,'!v Hntil ,ha'd b«h, brought: for-. wanl members should :not' endeavour,: to I • i prejudge-i the ' oharges. . It was un-Bri-tish; it was not' fair to Mr. Hine. It' [.;' • -would be. remembered that iMr. Hine' had ji 'i.briginaUy offered to : : pay; the: costs of "the inquiry-if his charges -failed. Tho Primo f. i! : Mihifier''Would have' difficulty . -in! convin:': f,v! : ! , \ing.! , hadj'not. turned laV: sdmersa.ulfc r.Evbn i his''followers could 'lie'was-'loading. them/ , !; ! ;,;Mr.' : 'Brbwn (Napier) .''contended that the '.'.order of.'reference /should' ' include all: 'r, !: :'charges?affe6tihg members .of Parliament. >;i: '.!slr. ; Stallworthy!', (Kaipara) V; held that-j;,;<;,r,thoV-Prime t : Miidster:/-wasi : oia6p_tlnit:>"-;-tHot ;. right : course.

[ ' A Singular Utterance, My. Hanan (Chairmaiii'iof ,:the Commit-, : that,' the position in regard to f-:. -the-charges had now-ohinged. .... ■ . : KwjSMr. ' Allen : = In: w!iat:f.particulars?. , . Mr. nanan ?aul that -Mr. Hine, by, tlie f:.•: vague v?ay!- in which' he -had.. alluded, to f ■ " ongmally. had , a r.:; !ciUlous''indifFerence :.to - what. was;,.fair :io the House. -Mr. Hine undoubtedly., led; ! i K^.'tlie ; ,tHo'u»®:"tb-rl»lieyo'-"-'vtHa.t'j; th®': : perso.ias affected'';.were. .'inembers; !tif>! the:; present. House. Members Ob, no Hanan (continuing)' asked !,why Mr.' i; J- : Ilihe. had. not; statedthai the ■■ charges affected - ex-memborf. of the 'llouso, that- ! one', of the; persons' affected' was a mem-! .;! ber ;bf ' Upper: House, 'and that 1 they. wew; .all vlanif > ' Hep preferred;; to' ; / shelter!, behind a- fer.ee, in as he - ■ had' said,i "to''electrify- the , country." (.'.vjihe; m'btiTO.'.of !Mr. uhdoub'ledly, : ( on'; thei:Govern-, !• inent from tho-party standpoint: . ■ f .. ' Members:. Who said so? Mr. Hanan said it had to, be remomI ■ Ixred -that' the > Land "Purchase v : Board, i. came between the owners and the'Gov-, r eriiment. I '.'; Before the charges, could-be: [. established it would have to bo shown f that' the Land--Pnrchase Board , had been ta '-.^influenced.-vi.There/was ralso ;!,d' r .'en the' Ministry.' .' . ' : .'•• v. i Members Where' ;. : Mr.. Hanan (resuming) said that the K;Committee could-not have 'heard .• .the. i.: case against the; member of the' Upper (0 ; : 'I:'.'-/ i.'. Mr. 'Allen: Why didn't yon advise tho M'i to .Ttile.vy' ; . iltr. Fisher': If you had you' would!havo. f-Vi-'i.l>een:: : wrrtiig;:; : i ; ; ' Mr.. Hanan quoted-May in. support yf ;, : ,'his contention -that the/jCommittee .could < . -not hear the-charge.;;'! ', y'- %'.;?■ Mr.' Aiileri; :Hidn't!:;you; iyote that, the; :• charge's should '. go to •a .' committee?. (Laughter.) '; . 'Mr.; Hanan added, that there had been .an opinion expressed' th'at nd 'matter what Ife-tlie:-''! Select''? Committee ; ;repprtedfiit"wbuld; not;: be^^satisfactory;.'^{ : -,-Thero;',was; : he,said,,' 4i'd«nM;'|^rißak'e) i pSiJycapital &.j>Kth6 ! ;chai^K;v,:; f '';y:j';;''');:;: ; '.The _;mbtion',th'at! : the ;Teport'.be-"adopted' i ~j andvbejiprinted;itogether =.Tviththe.f eViptSjdencie,'. whs tpn ,'put. and declared; carried! r"; 'on the voices: ' A division was,' however, ;•. .. called, for 'by . Mr. 'Russell. : . " ." ; , A Lopsided Division. f •■ ' The' ve^ng." 'on .tho.'division.was ; as l it i'Per J the "Motion (55); {v. ' . ' ir Allen i Lawry, J Anderson Luke [.•/'Arnold:'.. ;' 'Macdonald ' - > Brown 1 . MlCenzie, R. | 'Buchanan , Mackenzie,, T. j Buddo Malcolm i E;..'linxton . , . •'.! ..Mander ;. : Carroll . Millar • .'. ' •••. . Coliin . Nijata i J Craigie ' No-worthy i Davey Ok'y Dive Psj'ata , Duncan, J, Peiirce EU- ' f '-r Pll llipps f" -1 )' ' \ Field ' Rhjdes | • Fisher',;-.". .: ' • Riisis : ,'' ; .'"v/"-'; .. :' :. .Torbes •: Seddon ' : Fraser Sidey j ~'•.Graham , : :i , : -Staliworthy t Guthrie • Steward '» Hanan Taylor, E. H. < Hardy :'.Taylor,- T.'- E: ! Herdman' Thomson, J. C. , Hemes ' , Ward ; Hine ' ~. . v'Wilford ' , . . |. . Hogg t'S'^Z/i^iWi^;:!':!!!;;^:';•.-f - - Jennings Wright , i' Lang r _ Against the Motion (8). \ Duncan, T. Lr.urenson f-;..'(ireenslade- • ?'■'A':;?: Poland, V'.- . t Hall Poole f , Hogan Russell

*h>g; /rjiie ffoiloiyirig' is.;.the;'' tele^'am-i■ ii|> tjur if;£ London "Times ' referred to • by' the ; Prime. ff »: ; MinisterV;;i:lt ! isifram'the Wellington; core'f£•: xespondent;k of "The. Times,";Vand- V' wasj&S iArtgfusb ill; in, liiat' jduriial ; 1 ;It j£ &will;be ! ; seen; that ',tfie-;Pfime j.has. ?•;mis-stated its.contentsii •' •"•. : ;;i i 11 Hi'.'V TVVellington,..August -10. t ' ! "Mr. Hme,v a member of the Opposi-|}vS'jtion,^in;;the^i[6use:;tb-m^ i;;.v:tj:cKarges Hgainst^ i> ,:;i acouang:!tlie& \'of iftg'v in fconneotion'r.witllthe.rsaloi of \ estates., to; SiJ iwovdd ; riofc L' :i' P T O ..their 'names, /-but -.he asked for : a of •''inquiry.;^'The .Premier re-. ' plied, that -if Mr. Hme was. not prepared KMjtO;: state ;'the,rnames: ■ publiclyi-.br ; ;to/ ; : the ,! theJieve lis charges." . r//H,/;'." ■ ■* ■ - ' • ' ' ■ ' ' .