MR. TOE'S CHARGES.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 947, 14 October 1910, Page 6

MR. TOE'S CHARGES.

g|THE COMMinEE'S DECISIONIgtaQUIRY BY JUDGES. fefpREMIER'S LATEST VOLTE P^E-:^!'-^^^-'.:!'/^': f| | A LABOURED EXPLANATION. t:y.;::There, was.'a- - 'further; meeting of the JviHirie -."Allegations', Committee '..yesterday. i:^ropfning,'when i 'all.;.the meinbers ;pf the. |; ; ,(^mmittee ; were:present, Mr. J. A. Hanan, |.:M.P.' fpr ; lnvercaTgill, beiiig.in the.chair.'■: ■vA''in':accordance-witb. the intentionuyhich S'ih'e-: had, expressed:-.on the: .previous' day, |';the; Premier :;moved:-r.;''.' ::...':: '• ;;'■' ."Thai now the names arid cases have g;-::- been submitted to the Committee,, tlie,;-, R',' iiCommittee' recommends that ,they .be. .; i:.(".lreferred. to.'a Royal. Commission;-con- •. ;;..:.'V.'sistiigVof :two'/Judges of .the Supreme,, i;';: Court, to investigate and report.''.: ',':.; tV : i ; Sir Joseph Ward said that,'after,full. '.;:consideration of: the •'subject'- no"!was' of that, this .was' the. right course ..to Stake/ "He had: stated in the -House that ?:-a ""Committee::was:'a xpmpe.tent\ body,,-.to, : deal with! these' !inattel•s,'^ , arid, belioye'd ■Kthat was absolutely right;':but/in.-looking.: .> at:the whole position -he was ■ now of .ppini.i6n':tiat:'in.':.tne interests of ..the country '- these charges':should "be.:.referred sto; two. f'Wdges' bfithe'Supreme.: Court; V;He bad < .been' prepared; to:;take:that • course.:from, i'the: begirinirig. : ::'ifJ,:tho'' names:" had'.been; :so that .the. Government:,could !|ha>e^prepared'a? case for the Judges.; His (first ; proposal; to! refer .the .matter", to the! Ijlands":Committee-was'adversely criticised 'iiri.-:Some:;of! the"! Opposition; journals,, and, f-'wheu', be"proposed\tovset; up' the! Special : the sairie; exception' .was ,taken; : :[Ho-added;.that there: mighfcbe";other-cases 'Irefluiririg-to: ccinie"- before; .the'.Committee,' :'aid'-'he' :thdugh"t:.'it;-,iriirkirtant' , that':the Mpredominarit"party : 'should ,not:.be,iput::in ; :positi6nvM;liaving:it'alleged,against; Sjt'fhat'it'.was'. using its -majority 'for/ party:. ?juTp^s^.^:-;Tlie : -presßntfcasß:\was;.sqi:imj: f'jpbrfent.that: 'membersjshould ;bo',. relioved; Mas?:iar:'' as.v'pbssible'•■■'from::,suggestiorisv of pthat:,kind--inside' 'or : ; outsido^Parliament.' !iSince- Mr. ■ Hine .had. made .his - charges ;in t:-the.. House ,vb'e::.had; in tr.oduced fpneL'case |-<tha.t ;hb ihad -:not;V-'preyidusly Vmentioned:IjHe'jhad •:' given; the' name of ;.a:'; member *of • lb ttoa'l*gis] ative' Cbunoil.id Now; it., was. not, IS'*bhstitutibn»l i that i,a.' Committee;: of f the" |: ; .H6uso !bf. : Representatives.;.shbuld,-.',try. T 'a .the;other: Housb:':yirideedi:it; t.lhad no power.vto'do'.-.so;-'--.y.That':was: -a: ihiprecederit'established' in the ;01d:Country,-. | ; ;where.-.^.'the : -' .'investigation': "of v ;matters ; af-, infecting! .-the v'HquseVof:! Lprds',: : was ..'never., ii";'(ra"ne:-by:,a:'.Com'mittce ;-of'.the;.Commons.; there : was: another., reason ; ;why. it was |;~, desirable : to': refer, these'eharges; to.- Judges. &■ Not only,:were;reflections being'nYadrupoh, M'-liTOng' men.vurilil;these charges.iWere'.dealt; s'«withi.:but it.imightj.happen :'.that':' : xao ac-, fi;tipris:;of'' dead.';'men'" mightv;:b,e;::iefiected' j!;;! i tipon^i--'"Pei&nally;'...'aß"a^mebi t-:i&mmittee;ihei: did:"not. ; wahtito .bei put ;i?!in! the of.. dealing: with "cases;' : df. :ifar;:as: ,;the : ; Gflveriment S'o ft^^ K'-vestigatiori."';-:^"From'-;--'eyery.;' standpoint 'it KBeemed -'desirable -that "the Ceases .should jS;.; be: referred':to'two" Judges: of' the! Supreme :>!}:CoUrt..' j Such a! course.,.would! .take them |:ffiou't!:ofrthe ! ; as it; .would ,un-p-j deniably jgiye;greater'bon"fiderice!.:j!!; £ t } '■'■''; K:i;iK-;';;i ; :: ;j::.MH,i:-Masse^ fe|;rMr'.',''Maßsey :! 'emp.hasised': the Vppint-.th'ati \i '.the':Coinmittee: had 'only ; pbwer.J^b'.Tepbrt I'i'fto;the'-; Iv-fectly-clear.!abbut..tbe. brder, bf-Teferenco |r"-Bb'; : far:as 'ther.new.tribuhai.was.cbnw Iv'jHei had. JsbirijfSdoubtsj Rafter' Jioolririg vinto! I'|;the?;:la;wy:i"as.: to : :wnetherSeven::a : :;;Royal Kcaso.:; It':would be ' that ■ 'fa had plbeehT'beld: tliatuthe -', Ohinemuris Qp,tQmiir; Kisipii;:was g'-TO'Vie'csssary';;'for-'.,th'e Prirae::'Minister.:,to! B:ycbnsult! ; 'the,-i,Growh:: , fi ; ,'-tib'ri'i;to;;'make.;theifullest" -Joseph ;said'that do r ..that.:;:-;;:;'!;; remarked.thati «^Mr.>!'Hine;had "stated : in !the.'House! that : iv;.i'Minister'!WOuld; agree';'tp:.T'efer?tlie.' "charges ; %! ■ 'Sir! Jeseph ?[ He !said; it ;Pnlyjjit last ;;,;:;::; ■;;.;:;";-;:';^ : ':v:;.;:' ";,;:; V;:'-;:pMr;.'. Massey.:';.'Oh, ,'nOT-befbre",t that.'v ~. '■,: .' |::V'The;;Prime ; ;Ministerr!said Mt; 'jHine,: had; made': his :offer '-..until - the u finbtion; f or: the:' appointmerit; of; the' Coin'-, i:;riiittee.!was.- befpfe thb-HousbVvlAll'.tkrbngh'; ifche'Shadi.a^ | f,' deeliried \to':'giv'e. ; :..themv:.:!;Ho Jpseph). :had fwanted; :thb;:rii!atter : tb; •j;>obme:. l^ore|-theV■CommitlM':.'to^bave.:^tlM , pEtaieinerits examined.;',;.Frbm begirinirig.'.to: the;; Goverriirient WwTorig'.'in ithese ■ cases,'; and,.a; reference, of s;.the ; ;Goycrnriient'"from! '.ariy.:. s'uggestioi;..- of. dpne v anything"-'wipng'..^.;^.;■',; ■'■■ .;='

&;-;-Mr.^Alien; (Bruce)./, th.ought/:::that./it f? might/be havo/a special/Act |; : 'iTOSsedi:to;.;'pui; -the;;matter pn'va'/proper/ %BZTji+ he : (hoped,/that_",'there/.would, be] Itnb;'-delay;: : .ln tho/.'cours'e'.'bf-his-remarks, Sjthe Prime' Minister had,'referr'ed.to/ other ii'cases.:':' '.He-:-would like to.:;knbw: what jHiwbuld,.be-tne, nature.; of'the proceedings erin'* those ca^.----'.-' :;X^}-' : I't/jSir;.'Joseph':.;.The'■•;'Government..; is, not jV.gbihgi.tb .be.;a/prosecutor;: against anygoody. 7:-l;/amVnpt;vP>epared;i.toj!make;'.a SiEtatem'ent"':^^at•'the : moment.'..' ,-:■--.' - - ''.■'. K;i*'Mr.: Allen,saidiMr. ; Hine, had' definitely/ S:-eta ted; in-' the House: that .he /'was, prepared. j/'tb;tfbrmulate:his;charges/'and : :give /-the j-sliames/if -the. Prime :Miriister, would: refer i". ; thfv'matter to; two" Judges.-A:;. ; -/:■';/: ;.' ./• | : -/;;Sir'Jos6ph.Ward:':He said/, hei/iwould. ji'give tho to the Judges.-,/,.,,',/ J,. -,- / • ; iV;vMr. J AllenV.xNo;' he'; said he/lwould ■ give. ) : "the names then "and there. ;S //;';-'"..-.: , t ..T'Sir:: Ward,:':l .asked .''■'/send' me the/names., priyately,; and;/.: he. A-vwouldnofdoatr'-^Ai/y':';::-/^/.;,^/;;';/:;'/:,;. S names 'if /-you; decided -to.refer -the .matter. :/'; : to;.Judges. ',■>;?/-.-.',/'■/!'- ■': S^--:A: : '-.-.'■..''■ :]'■'■■;■', f "Other. Cases ; Hinted/ At.!^,v : ; /'. 'i'j'i*- 'Again-Mr.; Allen'asked -what : ,wpuld be: S'.-the'.:prbcednre :':in regard;' tbL. other;'- cases' ;'V tinted 'at':- :-;■': - ./■;;!:',: 'y:i-. ~:'■;:::;:': .',.■/,/' /'/";:/Sir, Joseph: -Ward'replied-that' the Goyi'Serriment' was:not prepared tb/be.a-prose- ;;/ cutpr/ against: anybody.- /'./.'':///;/,•:.:' ;/.-'/.-Mr," Allen:' "If'-. other charges, : are /.to "bo' ; E-':-m'ade they'should .bB//mado'in;'ah';ebjually. ;:)public.Kway.;.' If/s'any"other*;person-has B-'charges:.tbvmake.';let him'.make them in. ■/rl'aii!-;open /and./straightforward. way.: jtet ■Klrim' take.the' v responsibilityvjust, as■ Mr. •;-/'/Hine has taken'it. -Thatis fair.' -."Asvto, j&dead,nien;. I''do.n't. know; what/ the: Prime r Minister, meant : by/;his roferencb;/to;dead j, /nien. J; /don'tknow: any ■•charge/ against g/deadvnien;>:/ >■'/;/:/;//•'' .. ,/ : : : ' r V : '■":■■'':.:■;'.'. [Vi/'Sir.JosephiWard: I never/saidso.'".. ■/,; •• <[:.'. Mr..'Allen: .'I hope no: chdrge'/is .going ;■'•;to be mado against dead men." I think/ V ithe statement should be made" a : little .: more clear..-:/• / : ; ' ;■/./, / ::: ?:/'Sir Joseph Ward:■ In.asking..that■ this:■ ;:■ .matter .be. fefeTrcd;.to. Judges.of, the rpremb Court I-, am doing so with the inattention that/it" should be investigated in' ■■■the'public: interest;./... :-;'.'.',. ,- /,, i; -Mr. .Allen: And; at /once. ■'■•.;.;.-. - / :;/:.,-Sir,. Joseph .Ward:' Yes; this will,be.the ?.best/ course .to obviate delay. • I: will have v; the/matter/examined power. f .//of ; the Judges to carry out under the.co'm■"mission what must -be the request of Par- :' -liament. If there, is any doubt about it, :; : I'll.undertake/to/see that Parliament will -/■-put'that, right. ; : /I .'made no, charges i. against dead men, and no person "connect--Led with the Administration in/the past, i: or/the present;had/done anything but his i 'duty in connection irith such matters. "What I said was; that .this,matter may •/reflect not only upon men living but also. 1/ upon, men: dead; -and' therefor©: we should, -.have, an/impartial' tribunal./,.-.'"-:'. , r'' : .'V-/'''..When';.Wi!l the Judges', Report? '... .. Mr. Massey.:' I support what Mr. "Allen :: las .'said. If there, are. other, charges let '/.them ; be made in an open' and straight-. ; forward manner. In regard to Mr. Hine's •"/willingness to give th© names, he quoted :: r from : hii speech of September ,29: showing - ' ihat he was' prepared to give/the names i'-of tho men .implicated at once on', re- \. ceipt of the' Prime Minister's, assuranco :. that two' JudgcsZ.wouUbbe: appointed' to 'inquire" into the/charges.; '. "' "■';/■. i'/ Mr. Buchanan: Is'it'contemplated that' -? : the Judges : irill report before 'tb/ie close' of /:/V"ffie''6essiopa!v?-,.;:,''/'/,V';/:i-// : ' ' "■ ':://.:-■<'

i Sir Joseph Ward: I propose to write to tho Chief Justice and ask that two Judges of the Supremo Court be appointed.. I shall also ask'> that a_ time 'be fixed-, for the report to sbo sent in. Mr. Buchanan: At the earliest possible time?

Sir. Joseph Ward-..Yes., Mr. Massey! asked' if -the Prime Minister had any information in regard to tho other charges that might, be: formulated.' They, sbould'not go on without knowing about thorn:. .They should bo both before.tho House; aid .'tho committee. . The "• chairman: ' Aro'' you referring to tho .other charges to bo made by Mr. Hine? ..'.-. i ■;;•.■ .;•■'■• ■ ; . '• .■■ Mr. Massey:,-No,•..those referred.to by. Sir' Joseph' Ward..'' We aro entitled to know about! them.:. ;■■;.'■•"■•: : .-'' ■ .-'!.."■' . ■ ;. Sir Joseph: I .am not .'here in the position of a' prosecutor,' and I am not going, to bo put :in : that position, with regard, to anyone. /Personally, I do not propose to formulate charges against anyone.; I hnve been, informed' about somo cireumstances'-thiit.'are''under examina-' tion at .present/.';:. Thore'may bo,other charges!'*. ' :'';""";' '"','.''■ "'' The motion to recommend to the House .'avEoyal'-.Commission' consisting of - two Judges . was earned, after . which Sir Joseph: moved that the Committee should report to the..House accordingly.;.:' - Question of Witnesses'-: Expenses; etc. >Mr..'Masssy:. ; said '.that'.lt .was certain that Mr.Hinewould, have, to : call. a' number\'of' witnesses.;:' Was there any provision for their expenses being .paid? Sir. Joseph: Thatwiliibo a.'matter-'for the Judges.:. I;caiiiot make any.sugges:,&nK;to:.'thom'':;m';reg&4N^o -'- a .:' ln *yßr.'pf, ;that;'sort.. . ; '.'- : .-'-.-.i-'J.:. I "' • 'y'!> ViMr.' Allen remarked that a ■ committee had power to summon.witnesses, and Bad ,t6: pay» their; expenses.-? : This was always done.'-... He did';not .know : whether! the Judges. would, have.; power .to allow : witTiessesVexcuses. 1 ::':;' : '/"' ! :7 ■''''■■.''■' ..";Sir ,Joseph: : :lf;.in;,the.first, place.:the House had adopted a resolution to refer the.' charges to .two -Judges .the: House would riot have .told. ;the Judges W/hat to do;- arid neither:,could. the; committee do soA-XMy:'own;bprnioh:is-that Itho'.Judges would' allow, "witnesses', expenses.:' .'.' -~-;.; .'/After some informal- discussion it, was; resolved,. that .'the; Committee should .present: its.report'to Parliament' that day. ,',.- Owing., to', the "fact; 'that, the .'-clerical, work in. connection ,' : with : tljio proceedings, ■before the' Committee had-' not. been completed;,! >tlie:Committee:: did,>riot.report' >to the'-House yesterday,-.'but; propose: to; do so' ! to-day;; : :-y ?v : ,-'ii^i-!':.'"':-;-: : !V■'-'■: ':■:■'."'■