ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 858, 2 July 1910, Page 3

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

OPENING OF THE DEBATE. SPEECHES BY MOVER, AND • SECONDER, Mr. MACDONALD .(Bay of Plenty), in moving tho Address-in-Rcply, prefaced his remarks with a reference to tho death of King Edward and tho deathsof legislators who had passed . away during tho recess. He went on to say that, in his opinion, there had been a return to the prosperity for which New Zealand was formerly noted, and in this connection much praise was duo to the Government. No one could help feeling gratified at tho big increase in the exports, and if the back-blocks were ""developed they could bo still further augmented. He was pleased to see

that the Land Bill was to be introduced; ho thought that tho Crown lands should bo thrown open on tho optional tenure. What had helped moro than anything else towards the prosperity of the Dominion was the land settlement policy of tho Government, which should bo continued. The Government should at onco soo that idle Crown and Native lands wore brought into occupation. No bush lands should ue loaded with, timber royalties if there was no market in the localities for timber. There could be no doubt but that tho new. Native Land Act was a big movo in tho right direction, but for Europeans to get titles to Native lands was still a very slow and tiresome undertaking. It was to be regretted that the lands not required by the Natives had not as soon as they had been determined by the commission been thrown open right away. He wished to add in this regard that it was only fair to Mr. Carroll" that his Department had all along'been starved from a financial point of view.

Rating of Native Lands. None of the ' proposed measures would bo moro popular than that which proposed tho rating of Native lands. He was further of opinion "that rates should be levied in regard to. small grazing runs; it was never the intention of the Legislature that they should r.ot be subject to just local rating. It would be-a boon-to settlers if. more stringent measures were taken to see that noxious weeds were kept down, especially, on unoccupied reserves. ;Tho proposal to assist those who needed help in regard to maternity met with bis- support. He proceeded to say that there should be special settlements for Government co-operative workers. It was sincerely to be hoped that the Government would ' continue with its progressive policy, for under it the small man had a good chanco of getting 011. Mr. CRAIGIE (Timaru), who seconded the .motion, also opened liis remarks with appropriate references to tho late King Edward and those legislators who passed away during the recess. Ho was (he continued) pleased to.see that there was a great improvement in tho financial position of the Dominion —in fact, the outlook was very much better than it/ was this time last year. It gave him much pleasure to see that the Government was bringing down pro-' posals with reference to. the water powers of the Dominion.

Water Povvsrs, . In . twenty years' time the power wliioh' would be generated from the rivers, etc., would he a better asset even than the railways. Local government reform also was badly needed; the time had. arrived when the . powers of local bodies should be enlarged, and he trusted that the keynote of the Bill would be decentralisation. ',- Destruction of noxious weeds and the inspection of dairies were two matters which might be placed under the control of local bodies. He generally-approved of . the defence scheme,' .and spoke strongly • against liquor being allowed in camps or. even in halls. --. As regards sinking funds,- they should be so invested that they could not. be used, for any other purpose. It would be . better to spend ; money in encouraging people with_ a family of three or over than on immigration. In his opinion, Dr. Findlay was- deserving of great credit in connection with his ■ prison reform scheme. The' Government" would deserve the thanks of the whole community" if it' put : down "obscene literature. He was a leaseholder to the backbone, and the longer •he lived the stronger he - held that opinion. The unearned increment should go to the State, which had pledged the country to enable it to be developed! A country could not progress without borrow-, ing—there was nothing in borrowing if the interest was forthcoming.

SPEECH BY MR. MASSEY. TRENCHANT CRITICISM. ■ LAND, DEFENCE, AND • OTHER QUESTIONS,;' ; . Sir. MASSEY described • the speeches of the mover and the seconder as reasonable- .and sensible—in fact, they could haTtlly be called party speeches. There could be no doubt that llr. Mac-, donald was quite wrong ..when he attributed the return of: prosperity to the Government ; it. was due to the - fact that the prices of the staple products were better now ' than' they wero last year. So long as New Zealand .encouraged ■ a majority -of the people, to go on the land, and .products remained at a fair .price, the Dominion would, enjoy prosperity. Mr. Massey went on ? , sa y that the practical abolition of the Roads and Bridges. Department had been the means of causing much loss, disappointment, and friction to tho -settlers." As regards Mr. Craigie's remarks, he would like to say. with the Government' sinking funds should not be so invested that they would be at -the disposal of the .Government at any time. .Members must see, also, that the proposed sinking funds in connection'with the public debt were not provided out of borrowed money. , .

Sir Joseph: Have they ever been? Mr. Massey: I might put that question to you. I guarantee that you are not able to say that they have never been-paid indirectly out of borrowed money. • . ' Sir Joseph: That is not-so. ■ The Land Question. ' Proceeding to touch on the land question, Mr. Massey said lie would like to inform Mr. Craigio that thesettlers were not satisfied. with the renewable lease. Indeed, they would not take up land if they could get it under any other tenure. He was surprised at Mr. Craigie's illiberal' statement re freehold and leasehold—he held a freehold himself, but he intended to deny the privilege of freehold to anyone else. ■ The settlers were now ■ beginning to see the difference between the spurious Liberals on the Government side and the real Liberals on the Opposition side. Although he had tried very hard, he had not been able to find one thing in the Prime ; Minister's speech at' Winton which indicated any policy on the part of the Government. In connection with' every proposal set forth by file Government there was a loophole through which it might escape when it became necessary. "It is quite clear," quoted Mr. Massey from a newspaper, "that the Ministry has decided to break whatever news it may have very gently, for there is certainly nothing to alarm anyone in the words which fell from his Excellency the Governor yesterday. So far as • indication of policy ' is concerned' the document read by Lord Islington' is virtually barren."

A Candid Friend of tho Government

Those remarks, Mr. Massoy said, came from a friend of the Government— probablv a candid friend—at any rate the official organ of the Government in Wellington. When the Government's own friends expressed opinions like those which he had just read it conld hardly bo expected that opponents of tho Government would be able to pass a moro favourable opinion than that .which he had just quoted. Mr. Massoy proceeded to say that there was a good deal in tho "policy" speech about tho Stato taking over tho water powers of tho Dominion. Ho did not believe that the Government, should on no account interfere in regard to water powers, but it was his opinion that so long as there was private enterprise available for development of the water power • or any other resource it should have the opportunity to do so. This dog-in-the-manger policy of the Government in rer gard to water, land, etc., had done a

groat deal of harm and interfered with the prosperity iu certain directions of this country.

Will the Old "Hack" Start? Ho would next refer to the promise of a Local Government Bill this session. That old hack, however, had been nominated 011 so many occasions that ho had little confidence in it being given a chance this year But just as the country was desirous of a change in regard to tlio general Government, so it was equally desirous of a changc in the existing system of local government. What was wanted badly was a scheme under which local bodies would be able to get their financial requirements without going to Parliament as they had to at present—thus destroying their own independence and the independence of tlio Government. It was very desirable also that the Bill should be brought down in time for it to be considered at the County Councils' Conference. Then again he noticed in the Speech from the Throne tlio usual statement that the Government intended to help tlio back-blocks set-tier. After watching all that the Government liad done in this direction in the past he had, however, come to the conclusion that all the Government cared about the back-blocks settlers amounted to nothing, so long as their votes were forthcoming at election time.

Was the Retrenchment Real? v . It-was also'now* stated by the Government that retrenchment was now 110 longer necessary. Prior to the retrenchment proposals they-had been told, that it would oe possible to save to the extent of £250,000 per annum in regard to the public service without impairing its efficiency.' He for one did not believe that anything like that amount had been saved. If it were possible to save that 'amount a year ago it was necessary to do so no\v, and the money saved could bo devoted to a better purpose, as, for instance, the reduction in taxation. It was his opinion that the increase in the Customs last year had not been necessary at all. The fact that there was a surplus of ,£432,000 showed that that was the case. Of course, the Government had proposed to repeal the additional demand at the end of the financial year, but he would like to see them do so within the next three ,ot four weeks. He regretted, that the Government had done away with tile ninepence capitation vote and the libraries vote. If the Government had given the House an opportunity of appropriating those votes there would have been no objection. He hoped that within the noxt few weeks a return would be given in connection with the retrenchment scheme. The return should contain all names of officials retrenched and all new ' appointments, and if it was not forthcoming the House should assert itself. In some Departments: there had been increases —not decreases. One was the High Commissioner's Department, which had become the dumping ground for the Government's friends.

The "E. A. Smith" Matter. That reminded him of the , "E. A. Smith" matter. Who was "E. A. Smith"? There were many Smiths, but' only one "E. A. Smith," which seemed to stand, for "'Exceedingly Artful' Smith." Full particulars as to the relationship between the firm and the Government should be forthcoming. It had been reported, and not denied, that that firm got commissions not only on passage money. of immigrants, but also on freights and stores for this country. Then there were the different versions in regard to the matter: The Prime Minister said ho knew nothing about it; Mr. Reeves said ho knew all about-it. He could assure tho Government that ho wanted to know all about the firm and if there were any more "E. A. Smiths" in 1 connection with other Departments of State. Touching upon tho promise of, the re- ■ introduction of tbo Land Bill, Mr. Massev said it was clear that the' Government in. this regard had not stood up to the. collar ,' as \rnen of courage and: sincerity would' havo done. Ho had little faith 01; confidence in any Land Bill being steered through Parliament by the Prime Minister and his colleagues. Still the country never before more needed a: progressive land policy. According to his ideas, the two great requirements of this country frero lands for settlement and roads thereto, and the Government' which did hot provide them was not worthy of tho confidence of the people. If proof ivore needed that , more required to bo done in the direction indicated, all he need say was that three-quarters of our products were agricultural products; Instead of helping tho settlers, the Government was allowing them to be pin-, pricked—by repeated increase of valuations, by like increases in taxation, by a tax upon tenure, and failure to prolido additional lands for settlement.

Two of Our Crsatest Needs. He held that one of tho greatest mistakes that had been made in this country was t-o set aside so much land on permanent leasehold tenure. Ho 'was referring, to the National Endowment. Had it- been any , benefit, to education or old age pensions .as had been proposed? Not the slightest. Everybody knew tho real reason why those lands had beoii so set aside* If he had his way he would give the settlers an opportunity to go on those lands under the optional system, and th 6 purchase moneys would bo invested in suburban lands, which would bo a twenty times more profitable investment for the Departments concerned. Mr. Laurenson: Would you sell tho National Endowment, then?

Mr. Massejv Yes, and buy others which , would bo better 'in every way for the country. Dealing with the Native land question, Mr. Massey said ho was afraid that the people had not got past the stage of promise yet. He regretted to have to say that the difficulties which were alleged to be in the way were set there by those who had to administer that Department. He, was sorry to have to say it, but he believed it was a fact, that Mr. Carroll would not go any further than Parliament drove him, and in holding back he was ably assisted by his lieutenant, Mr. Ngata. It would be well -for him to ask , them if they intended to stop tho fleecing of Natives by certain people who were present at the recent big conference at Waahi. Did they know that one delegate not long ago'drew a very large commission in connection with the sale-of certain blocks? Did they .intend'to allow that to continue? If . they intended to benefit the Nativo raco they would have to see that it was stopped. Tho difficulty would never bo settled until the Natfve lands were rated, but that could not bo brought about successfully until Natives were allowed more freedom to dispose of-their lands.

Defence. With reference t-o defence tho history of defence in this country was history of bungling and mismanagement. What had. been done since last yearP Had tho scheme- been brought into operation? Where were the new regulations ? Lord Kitchener's recommendations provided only for compulsory training up to 18. It provided also, for a force of 20.000 between tho ages of oighteen and twenty-six, but it was expected that no would be necessary in getting it. From what he had heard it was an open secret that Kitchener's 1 report was of tho most sea tiling description. It must have been very unpleasant reading for Ministers and would make very unpleasant reading for the people whoso money had been misspent. It was his opinion that not 0110 in twenty had any confidence in tho Defence Department. They all know what had recently happened in Auckland, but lie was not going into the matter of tho Knvvett

case. Ho would, however, just liko to say that the peoplo were beginning to understand the case better now. Why it was a fact that Knyvett had been hunted out of the service. For what?

Mr. Dillon: For insubordination. Mr. Massoy: Nothing of the sort. Continuing, Mr., Massey said that it was for an indiscretion. He would not. admit that lviiyvett liad committed any indiscretions, but even if ho had tlio punishment should bo in accordance with the offence. He liad 310 doubt but that tlio jieople would insist upon Knyvett getting a fair trial. In this connection he might tell Mr. Fowlds that lie had 110 confidence in his statement as to the intention of the Government ill the matter. The sort of court promised would not satisfy him. He knew well that 110 officer who was appointed commandant would go back 011 what his predecessor . had ' done. Mr. Laurenson: You would lay a Knyvett. petition at the foot of the 111 rone?

Mr. Massey; I would be prepared to tako 0110 that far if necessary. Dissatisfaction of Local Bodies". Resuming, Mr: Massey said ho denied a statement by the Prime Minister that there had been 110 dissatisfaction on the part of local bodies with regard to tlio alteration in. the law relating to loans to local authorities. 011 the conij' ' ocai .h°dios found that they tit' now borrow so cheaply from the State as formerly. There was originally a promise when the amended legislation was brought down that those who had gone through the uecessary formalities to obtain State. loans would get their loans at the rates provided in the old Act. During the passage of the Bill it-' was, however, so amended that local bodies, if money was available, could only, get a loan at the new .rates. That the Government was not encouraging enterprise could .not bo doubted. It was not opening up enough Orowu land or Native land for settlement • and generally their actions were such as to create a feeling of uneasiness among peoplo who had the welfare of the Dominion at heart.'

Over-taxation. ! As regards taxation the' people knew that a groat deal moro' money was jemg extracted from the people than ought to be necessary. He would like to mention that' the increase in secondclass fares 011 tlio railways was out °r all proportion to the increase in the fiist-elnss fares. No doubt before long the Minister for Railways would bo telling the . people that our system was Better than the systems in Australia. But what was the position ? There was more dissatisfaction in regard to the railways than ever was the case before. And matters could not be put right until there was. a reduction in political interferenco to a minimum. He noticed also that it Proposed to amend the Gaming Act. No doubt they had. all read Mr. Justice Chapman's recent remarks with reference to bookmakers. A great responsibility in connection with the cases m question rested with those Ministers and members who voted for the' legislation of the bookmakers. It was a very wrong thing to shelter the bookmakers welling the totalisator. But ho would say this: that tote or no' tote, lie was going to vote for the repeal of the clause m question.

Question of Mails. • In conclusion, Mr. Massey, referring to the Reeves vote last session, said lie hoped the tinie would como when Parliament—and not the Executive—would govern the country. Any decision by iarliament should be respected by the Government. There had been a lot said about the mail services/ which were not what they ought to be. He favoured a direct Vancouver service, i'J wa ® possible, there should be a connection to meet the Vancouver boat.

MINISTERIAL REPLY. SPEECH BY MR. NCATA. NATIVE LAND ADMINISTRATION. The Hon. Mr. NGATA, referring to the criticism of Mr. 'Massey,- sa.id Mr. Massey had professed to see no indication of policy in tho Prime Minister's Winton speech or the Speech from the Throne. In 1906, when lie (tho speaker) came to Parliament he had a higli opinion of Mr.' Massey, but he had been looking for an indication of a' policy from Mr. Massey ever since. Mr. Buick: You will get it by-and-

O.V. I Proceeding, Mr. Ngata said that Mr. Massey's policy had been to jettison tiho big _ men associated with his party. While attempting to do this he had becm carrying 011 a course of flirtation with the sniall farmer of the country. The- small fanner owed 50 per cent! of what he'had to the policy of the. Liberal party. The policy of the Opposition was analysis,'not construction—a policy of looking wise, of insinuation and innuendo—a policy of manufacturing political bubbles. Those bubbles were invariably pricked. ;■ Air. Ngata said that Mr. Masscy's remarks were almost a.verbatim copy of the Leader of the Opposition's Taumarumii' speech. There he had said that the Native Minister would not .go much-further than Parliament pu'&hod him. When tho Government brought its Native land proposals down last year, Mr. Massoy pooh-poohed the. idea, but they went through in spite of him.' For one hour an that occasion the Leader of tho Opposition, showed his ignorance oftbo measure.

The Least Advertised Department. Referring to the Native land administration, Mr. Ngata said no doubt a good deal of the odium visited on his Department was due to'the fact that it was the least State Department. A great deal of information was buried in the. appendices of the House, and if members took' the trouble to analyso the reports laid upon tho tablo.of the House by the Native Minister they would know all they re-quired-of tho Native land question. He defended tho administration of the Native Land Department at considerable length, dealing in particular with tho reorganisation of Maori land boards and the new legislation. The establishment of circuits had been one of the most, important innovations iu connection with tho Department, for it enabled a much greater amount" of business to be transacted. Wherever tliero were largo areas held communally the Court was trying to get the land open for settlement. In two months nearly 200,00(1 acres had been dealt- with b.v tho Court. Never in its history bad the Court done better work than it had done during, the past fivo years. Mr. .Ngata proceeded to deal with tho matter of surveys stating that £20,000 had been allotted to - tho chief surveyors -throughout the North Island for 'prosecuting surveys. During May, 50,36G acres wore completed. Surveys in hand now totalled 358,208 acres. Under the old system tho signatures of half the owners of a block had to ho obtained before the chief surveyor could commence work. It- took over a year to get the necessary signatures. Then it had always to go through various channels and by,the time it came back tho surveyor was away and could not start tho work. The difficulty at tho bottom of the Native land question was this question of surveys and last year's Act had provided a'muchimproved system. Native land purchases made by tho. Laud Purchase Hoard had been simplified by bringing the board into touch with-the Nativo owners.

'Mr. Carroll a Diplomat. There was al present under offer to tho Crown close oil '180,000 acres of

Native land of various classes. Since the neiv Act was passed the Government had been in earnest in its determination to open up lands not required by the Natives. Heforring to Mr. Massoy's statement regarding "fleecing" he would say: Surely Mr. Massoy would not. like to see a return to a condition of wholesale "fleecing"? l'rom his reported speeches it would appear that Mr. Massey did not want the Natives to become landless —that would not be popular. Last session tlio House went as' far as it could in the matter of permitting Natives to part with their lands. It was all very well for peoplo to have said "hustle," but what was necessary was a diplomat—and such a man was Mr. Carroll. No man had shown greater capacity for treating with tlio Natives than the present Native Minister. Perhaps the last, big work, of Mr.. Carroll, who might be called a great diplomat, would take place in Taranaki.

* OTHER SPEECHES. CRITICISM OF THE MINISTRY. MR. DIVID'S OPINIONS, Mr. DIVE (Egmont) said he did not see how members of the Government could support the Ministry: In his opinion they were merely voting machines. Take, for instance, the portfolio of Minister for Justice. Why, none of the Government members could have been considered fitted for the portfolio because an outsider was appointed to the office. Then again, they were;humiliated when Mr. T. Maclten-* zie, a member who had sat on the rail, was given a place in the Ministry. He would like to give his opinion of the abilities of some of the Ministers. The Prime Minister claimed to be a great financier, but, if so, why did lie put 011 extra taxation last session when it was unnecessary? As an administrator, Sir Joseph Ward had also done some things which' did not betoken groat ability. There was the purchase of the Mai Nai estate and other matters in that connection.- 'With reference to Mr. Carroll (with whom, ho would bracket Mr. Ngata), he, considered that as an administrator he was the greatest drawback towards the settlement of the country. The Hon. J. A. Millar was one of the best Ministers for Railways the Dominion had ever had, but considering the difficulties which confronted him, he was more to be pitied than to be blamed. A good many peo-' pie believed that the Hon. R. M'Kenzie.was a very practical man, but if that were so, why . did he. support the Otira railway. AYith reference to the Hon. D; Buddo, : lie thought he was somewhat harmless, and would have made a good 'Minister for Defence. As regards the Hon. T. Mackenzie—tlio member who fell over the fence—he might toll him that very great improvements were necessary in his Department.

Mr. E. H. TAYLOR (Thames) also supported the motion, but dealt mainly with affairs affecting his own district. .

Mr. POOLE (Auckland AVest), who followed, spoke strongly in .favour of the protection of local industries, the abolition of the liquor traffic, and the gajnbling evil, and contended, in conclusion, that ex-Captain .Knyvett should be given a fair trial. Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) moved the adjournment- of the debate at 10.30 p.m. until Tuesday next.