MOTION RESENTED.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 763, 11 March 1910, Page 8

MOTION RESENTED.

v A HEATED DEBATE.; ; :y ;the"mayor on. "mud-throwing!" '.;■;>: RETURN TO';BE PEEPAEED; -' [■, ■;:■'-.. ;'VAn animated, anil, at times, a-heated, i;..-:■•. .discussion .toqk'.'place,ait .'the close' of j; ]■'. the'.City. Council meeting, last night, on a. •'.; ■-'■■. .- motion which' was ; designed to ascertain ;-:.,. ;whethor. there -was 'any 'ground■ for a susj... .- .;: picion : that'any .member?',of the. council I.•-'■ had'used their.'.position as 'suchfor-'their ».■;■ . bwn-'hus.iness advantage in an'-illegal way. i, ; i ; Cq'uncillor'Carmichaelmoved, accordinf; b;/'.'. .to'notice: v. ...'.- , . ' l:.:'' ',! _(1) That a jeturh'be and f'-'--'" "given to'each member of the council .: : 'oh or before March -21 next show- . .;' ing the date and amounts received by :.-. ,'>each -member -of the present council, ■ either as an individual or.as a. mem-' , "ber; of, a limited, liability company .duriug the past 'three years: for ma- : .'.terials delivered, services rendered, or '■-..'-. ,'."for anyiother .purposes."-. ; \' : ;.: : - (2) If . the amounts paid, werefor. p ''.•■■■.' ..'; materials delivered or sen-ices ren- ;.-'.. dered . to", bodies controlled by. raenis . '.hers of committees of' this : council. i. : .-" ' /What -.".position" does 'the .'member"'so i -;;-;;.' . ; .dealt with occupy, on the:committee? K'. . (3) That as far , as possible'the - j aniounts.'paid'to;:douucillors'acting-'as' : i r . :..'■■ .representatives 'upon.'all committees • ■ ...'. outside the immediate jurisdiction, of' [:,:'■ this council be obtained'aiid included • ]:'■-■ -m.the' 1 abovevlist. ,-V- • :.. .'..•"■ fr . (*) Is ;it possible to know now pat- ;,-.-..'• Tonage is given by the, ; council's-. re- : ■ ' .presentatives,. and to. whom? . j ' ■-.-■.'.-." ' (:-■■■; V--V ; 'V^;.':..>-• :-Voc - p;;,:. ;-. -Was- it: a /Rbfjectiern?./; v.^. ; ;;;v I :•"'■-. : "Councillor.'Fitzgerald seconfed the' m'otiqn. . He believed that" everything was ■•'■' .{f^'aotabovorboard,-and he, understood "."- , '■■■■■■. Wat : Councillor Carmichael's. ohj&t" w*s ... to. give .the public an:assurance to that ; .-; . -fttect;;; He did not see-, anvi'reasbnv.why t . tbe motion should' be -objected fo.< -a./ -' ' ■ ■ .VOMoiHorHindmiiTsh said- he saw'no' -, ; objection to„the inotiohi but -it 'appeated • to -be. meant "to. reflect .on 'bhe or-'tSb ; :... councillors,' and.:he"thought the movef' c . Bhbuld.have givem some.'reason'.for pass- ] wg it. ~lt .should be shown that ,there "were .companies, dealing; with the council ... Snd haying fewer than twenty-members,- : ■-.. or that, there was.some ground: for fear- ; ing i that, there ivere ; irregularities. : ' The ;-; motion was. badly worded, and 'the first :;■ . clause appeared to:, require companies -to ::■ Disclose their internal affairs, a, thing. [".-, .. which was .'out of the question. ;-.:,. .Councillor Smith said that the matter [. Old not affect him personally, as he'had ;.; .- never dohe"'any work for-the* council, -out j: he .resented, the motion as'.a reflection ;: on-some of "his colleagues.'.'As an old ■ V; of the'cQuncil, he had ho recollec- ;■■■:"■■•' : P°n of any underhand doings -in Tegard '■.'■' to,tenders. He.had known councillors : stand out so-as to giveVoutside business i . men every opportunity.; ■ .

--.Unfair; to" His Fellows.;; ' i Councillor Fletcher-said that'ffiere-was mutual respect .among oouricillorV' and -this motion brought down by Councillor Carmichael was a reflection upon all "of them.- Councillor Carmichael was not treating ..his fellow-councillors as' he , ought to do, and,-if he had any" allega-tion-'to: make, 1 ; he'sbbuld'have given par-' • aculars. '~His . present motion "was quite unfair. - ' ' - ■;■ ■:•■.-■-, . ■ ■ Atkinson said that it-was hot possible:to.vote.. ; on;the.- second-..part of the motion,-,because it.was ndt'a'motion at -, all—it/was a" question: - The motion was - not, a .practical one; -it "was -badly' P. ut --, > There was 'a. serious difficulty at ... the.bottom,of it,, and it'.-should" be .--. -.Benoiisly, argued. :.It ,was, a , question whether the law-should hot be, changed to/prevent, two councillors: or,' say," a councillor and -his wife, from forming an ; artificial, person who'' could accept contracts, from the'council.' > ;: 'Counci!lpr v ßaU|fl ? er\ said "that he-l.waV.l of .a.'Jinjlted'.liability-comp&v which had supplied goods to the- council oy.'ufsßderi and ,the: Mayor :was"rinr.the. ~ .same position.r'bfeing director'of- a eits-i ... pany. He considered that the■ contracts vere quite 'justifiable. The whole cf l.ounculor-, Ca'rmichael's motion .was yeuuliar. ~.... '. (■.■;.. ... .- . - rili? h H if. refen ' i ?,S i to ' I ne,'' added Coun"'lor Ballinger,. :'iet;hinr-say so. It is not. so, many-weeks ago that a tender of .... my firm was accepted by the City. Council, out as tlKr amount was some £16 or .£ls }fnv -i" 1 ? $ ether° ther tenders - ">e transacone" " WUS q a fdr and pr °s er .'. The Mayor Indignant, .'.'"' .... ■/. T ¥''! Ha ..the. remark; of Councillor Ballinger that he, (the speaker) was 'associated with'a' " *$ dealings' with, the';coun--U. .; Councillor Ballinger,"he : said, was - a member of a limited liability company numbering five or six members,, and he ; held most of the shares. That councillor.had said'" that'- he--(the 'Mayor)--had supplied goods Ho .the council. ■ "IVhave ;'a Jittle .'story. to-,;teIl; you vbout .it, gentlemen," continued -tho .Mayor, stUl: speaking 'with'.considerable , -warmth. ,;'When 1 was first .installed •' jn .this-chair,.. the .matter..' came •up ■ Councillor Ballinger : met, me, ana .'said that. l might" beVa, member of a'firm that Buppbed»goods to the 'council.'- For.in- . ; «ance, he said,', Tou.kre a director-'of " the. Gear'Meat'.Company/.V It. might supply iheat.to the Zoo, and you might /be.inipkcated.', I-knew that Councillor Ballinger was' in such an" awkward posithat he. would Sling mud presently. , I .went"found' to the'.manager 'of the company, ( and told him not to'; supply any .-.meat • at'..all, -because ■ I .was afraid that," some member might: sling mud- at me.. Now,' Councillor Ballinger has had ■ • it in his hand for. six .month's to' throw : : mud at me.: An- account came in'to.the ~' council from the company for .£l3, which was owed for. shrouds, the disused covers of carcasses that, have been sent Home. ; Mr.. Bichardson bought; ■.£l3 worth of -■ this, waste,. and the. amount:"has been owing for some years." . ...,.-.?" Councillor , Ballinger: .'•■ You - '"are not treating me .'fairly.- ,'.-'..,:.; The Mayor: I am'treating you fairly, •Councillor Ballinger holds nearly all'the *hares in his:own'company, and that'is. .the' difference between Councillor Bal'.lmger and myself. Couhbilldr. Ballinger:' I' eimply';stated that you.might be implioatediin a'matter such:- as this.. I'have .too much respect for your .-Worship ,-to,say such a thing, or even.tp.think it...1 certainly.had a coni versation'.with you. in the street,-and.said that',ybu might-be in this. As.far asithe shrouds are.concerned,•whei'the account 'us, -'Councillor.'Cohen,' who -..wassitting, next 'me, asked -what the amount-v;as-for. I'told him that I did not-know, and 'took the. trouble to in- - quire from .the, Town Clerk.7; You declare' that J have had it in my hand for' six .months.to sling:mu'd,"and "it is a most unkind thing to say.- '■'....

'■•:' ■ • ;' . - .;"'-■■. '■"'!'. ■ ■'.. . . Councillor Luk'o .on local 1 Industries. .'..Councillor Like : said that .there" w#s another aspect; He, was associated with a company'of more -.'.than twenty, .share-"' holders. ' Of'.those .twenty, ■ there .were his three sons, who were absolutely, "on. jtheir own." He himself had been here'for twelve"; years; and, 'although he disliked saying., H, •..'the. services' he had.'rendcred to the city and the sacrifices he,had made must be worth .hundreds' of ..pounds. 'A. man who'had sat on the council had told him-that his service, to the. city had caused *; him an expenditure of .£3oo' a year for a man ,to leok : ;after his own business'.for.him.' The council wdsin'd very bad.state indeed :f councillors could .not sit'.round-the table and deal with/the business in abroad and honest manner, in .such- a-wa'y. that "they, could, face the citizens squarely. If. every councillor . complied, with the law, he could' feel .that he ,waa honestly carrying out the 'obligations that rested upon .him as councillor. Some time ago, two boilers had.been required for..the tramway department, and tenders were' invited from the open market, by ■ advertisement in the local papers. Not'a. single tender was received from outside Wellington, and; if : two local 'firms,' of /which his was one, had not.teridered, the. boilers would' have been . built at ; Home. 'As things turned out, the boilers, had been placed on their foundation in the power-house for ; only a couple of pounds more than they.would have cost if they had been Drought from Home: He -would rather go out from the council at once for good, he said, than do anything to neutralis? the efforts '.by which local; industries .were encouraged in connection with inu-

. nicipal. .works. .His firm had refused, to tinder, for council works, and .when tenders froni his'firm had been before the committees he had,'either retired or.withheld his vote. ■" There-was not ah officer or engineer associated with - tho council who could say 'that he ever spoke or consulted him about a council job. : ''Iwould rather walk out of here tonight,", concluded Councillor Luke, heatedly, "than be.assooiated with men such as you, Councillor Carmichael,-if that is what you mean.". Councillor Carmichael: Thank you. Entitled to a Return. Councillor Devine said that only the first part of the-motion 'could be put, and he suggested, the withdrawal of the rest. . He did not think any motion for a return should be blocked. He supposed he would come within tho terms of .tlwmotion on.'account of his work in connection with the by-laws,-though he was not then a member of. the council. Ho all the council's business" in relation to ' tenders was perfectly fair and above board,'.hut there was a great differehcß.,in,.the. amount of contract and noivcohtract .business, and..this was the subject of., much' comraenfc.ioutside the council. If members of the council were members' of .limited liability ■ companies trading with the .council, .the council should, be advised as to .whether ■ they were ;gding ..outside;, the-, law;: :He regretted that the Mayor's name'had been brought into the discussion in the way it had..- - "■;• • " ' Councillor. Xuke 'said that this matter, had been referred to by him at the time.of.,the,,Mayor's, installation and it,-ha.d,:been. : explaincd..-that he was not making any. acensation-ogainst-the Mayor. Councillor.Devine, continuing, said that any. of the council, was entitled tD ask for ;'a,return, and when<the: return came before''.the 'Council,- that' was the time for any comment. It was not necessary at the present stage for the councillor who. asked for, the return to assert that there,had. bjeri a breach i.of tho law, nor was it ..necessary;, at :that:-stage'-for any rrfember :---ta •■> explains that who ■-' had not broken, the '"'..'■.-'■'• "An Ooen Secret.*' ■•-. Councillor Garmichael, f replying oh the discussion, said that, in-bringing forward his motion he had no intention;of raiLing the ire of members,'and therefore he had purposely worded the motion rather vaguely;'. There..' were,. however; certain gentlemen gifting r'oflnd the table.,who' 'were'rtS'6 :or so implicatedr-ho .jndt iJcao\v,' which—that they felt a twinge of tionscieuce. l '~Tho matter had. been discussed'- from one 'end of: the. country to the other since; he raised ■ the question,-'and" at Napier .a good many: of'.the: councillors had to leave, the council. A councillor:. But most ,of them were re-elected.' .-:.•■••-■-

Councillor .Carmichael M'Some of them were -It; was ah. open'secret that many people in, Wellington thought that similar things we're going 'on here. The only -way to prdvej that' such was not ■ the case. w'as to make the. matter public. There, were councillors who could not deny that-limited liability companies of which they were- members had received work for which they had not tendered... Mr. Ballinger questioned that,

but 'would he' question the .'statement that, as chairman of the Fire" Brigades Committee he had excused himself from moving the accounts because ■ hia name was there? .-. ' ..,.-,;. ', ■.:■.:,, Councillor Ballinger: Certainly, I did so; but it doesn't follow "that there, was anything wrong. ,-'■:,■ »'■'"■ Councillor Carmichael: I'm not saying there. was. : '■'•"''.:'."'' [■[.■ .. ,' .••'■ ... Councillor Ballinger: You're suggesting it. all,the«.time v '. . Councillor Carmichael: Tour action showed,that you. were'afraid there might be -something, wrong. .. i/,•:' .. .-..'- .-:' 'Councillor Ballinger:..The' Act "saysy'ou mustn't'vote on a.question.in which you are interestell; so I c didn't move the accounts. - : . '!•,,:. . Motion Amended and Carried. Councillor Carmichael,; proceeding, Baid he did not want annoyance on 1 , the part of councillors to prevent him' getting the information, and lie would therefore ask leave to'alter his motion. 'If it'was not passed in the amended form, that would show that councillors were afraid to give theipublic theiihformation to-which they were l .entitled.';'"He'wished r - to -make the motion "read as follows:—,'.. : ',':' ■ '"That a return- be;.prepared and 'given to each. member of the coun- ; cilon or before March"2l next,"showing the amounts received by, any. mem-, ber of a- limited liability.'.company ' during the last three' years,. who is also a- member', of jthis council, for materials delivered,. services, , rendered,, or for- any other purposes-" Some members had: opposed the motion, thinking it, applied to themselves. They -appeared to take •■."up. a-.. Knilty.-.attitude.. . The.-jnformation.-.miptht have that appearance, but,if it, had,' the,; council had a /right/to .know,,and. the,,public"had a right.';to know.'-,' '•,'.' .';','„ ; Leave was, given -to amend .the motion 1 as requested by.:.the mover.''■■ . ,' Soveral having 'left the Council .Chamber; .Councillor! Luke'said that, as. neither' Councillor Ballinger nor himself, could' vote" on ;-the . motion, there would not -be a quorum - of ■ councillors . voting./.-: The Mayor, however,- put the motion, :and dotlared :it- carried,on the voices;-,- •-. -v.- -• »-■'.-" -.■'---1-' ■■' .-■ "' ','■; The Mayor's Honour/; ■ The-Mayor again: referred.' with some heat,;to what had been' said regarding himself. '■■ He , said' that' the moment he was installed' as Mayor, Councillor Luke attacked, him, and said he might be implicated., The only-other man who had dared to say a word against his honour was Councillor Ballinger, who was largely interested in .certain., council contracts. ' CouncillorjßalUn'gerrYou'. have misundemood me.:'■ .-.■•-■■■