THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 685, 9 December 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

; FIRST READINGS.;'\- : .\" ■; /The House was occupied all yesterday afternoonj.with formal -business, .and "a discussion on the Greymouth leases, reported in another | In; the ovoning tho following : Bills wore read a first time :-Now Zealand Society of Accountants Amendment Bill, Magistrates' Lonrfa Amendment Bill, and the Eeformatory Institutions' Bill. -'■--, ■ ,•••'•; AMENDMENTS AGREED TO. . It ,, ,ras ; decided that the amendments made in ,tno-New:Plymouth Recreation and Racecourso Reserves Exchange Bill-and the Timaru tJqrpngh Loans .Consolidation Bill by tho Legislative ■ Council bo" agreed to.' : ' \ .;.';';3•". HOSPITALS.BILL. ; .. After nlirief. discussion it was agreed ■ to' disagree with the decisions .of tho LcgislnHvo .Council;with reference to the deletion of Clause 71 ; dealing with relief granted at Government .sanatoria; deletion of Clause .72, providing that boards, and-friendly societies might make special agreements; deletion of Denniston Hospital m the second schedule; and insertion °! jT' seoti °n to the effect that teachers and students of a medical school should be entitled to; access'to institutions under tho control of a board. .Messrs. v Fraser, Sidey, and the Hon. G. ! l-owlds were appointed- a committee to prepare reasons for disagreeing with the amendments.. "'.■■-, Replying to' Mr. ; Massey, ' the" Hon. G. I'owlds said that he accepted the amendment ;witn regard to hours of nurses.

; ; DEATH DUTIES BILL. : AMENDMENTS AND NEW CLAUSES. .The Death Duties Bill was recommitted for' ■■the. purpose of considering - certain amendments. ..The PELME MINISTER moved;an addition to Clause -U (which defines'the terra "successor ) as. follows:-(h)'Acquires 1 by 'inheritance from the deceased an estate taiT forming part of the dutiable estate-of the deceased; as (i) -who,has-become: entitled to any property forming part, of- ■ the dutiable estate .of the' deceased.-, as..-.a beneficiary under : any gift or donatio mortis causa made by the deceased within-three years before his death. .-. ■-. .The addition .was' agreed'to. ■■; ,-■ ■■<"'.■'■ ..It was resolved to: alter Subsection 6 of Section 20, which provides that tho value of any succession shall be deemed to be, the present valno. at the death of,tho deceased by adding the; following -;.words--"Provided ■ .that;:; the value of any succession .acquired by way of giftor.idonatio.mortiSiCansa and liable to succession'duty : .nnder paragraph, (i)'of.Section 11 ot -this Act shall bo' deemed and taken to" be .the-present value thereof-at the date of that donatio-.mortis; causa." . Clause 58 (n)was amended to read ns fol-loivs-.—"Every such deduction.(of gift duty) shall be;made in the first place from any succession, duty.-'payable.in respect of .that property,; and- thereafter as to the residue trom the estatei duty." ,'v r : , ■'■ ■•■'■■■. . 'A. new clause was adopted providing that the amended enactments : shall not affect ,the estate ;of any ■ person dying .before the-Act comes into force. ;• V.ThePRIME;MINISTER .'moved a new clause (12a) _as .follows -.-In the case of any estato ' Jin-rim • h^^ anC i e - 9f ; vhioh •'' do * s not ■ eMO «d AIU.UOU, .the value ;of any succession (withinthe yeaning of Tart; II of Act) acquired i* i . u J e ,'' w "?' ot - <n« aeceased, in respect of his dutiable estate shall, ,to the. extent of , but; no; more, :be, deducted /from, the. final balance of and estate, duty shall be payable .on ;the..residue - - The rate- of estate .duty so payable on the residue - shall nevertheless.. >be, determined -~ by the -total amount otthe said final balance; without any such deduction as aforesaid.- ' -. .Mr. MASSEY 1 urged that- in some circumstances an injustice was done: to the widow by this clause.. He moved to amend the clause to provide that tlie widow would always have ■an exemption up to ,£SOOO. : ",:■ ' : amendment-was -rejected; by 33 votes to

~f .=6 W clause (29a)_was moved, by the Prime 5;Ti ;that [as between successors death, duties should be-paid by each succeraor ,i.n proportion; to.the value of his interest. - ■ , A ' n <?w 66), : dealing [with'-'valuations,' was moved by.tho'.iPriMie'.Minister, who said tho .clause . simply.-repeatedvrthe, provisions of the ..Valuation Api, p with,.the cxceDtion that the .tax.ng.DeparMfen'ilVduia pay the cost of the vahiation r instead'of-'the-estate.' , ..,Tho-third readinu.of.the Bill was moved at y p.m. • .v;

-••Mr. ALLEN reviewed,the Bill'at some length, .condemning, the •severity- of. the provisions in ■W,^# ,duty\ and. succession duty. ■ ■ ■Mi. .MASSEV said.he-agreed:;with the principle 'of : death, duties,, so •■ long as they were and reasonable. The; Bill was gbing to.afford; a ■tremendous amount, of worE 'for AlO.OOCktho estate duty'would now be',£soo; as < p W ]j..-.. 1(: .- giah ./,^. i - £ 1 X ere lef t to. a l">sband- there would now be £200 succession • duty as '.well,-, whereas jormerly there, was; no ..succession -duty. ,■ In .fne event of the. estate goine to a relnii™ "I ith i n Ji he f ° urt - h <&** ■■& r awV«Sd ■bo. .£IOOO as against £,00 before. Relatives :be: yond the fourth degree v;ould have to' pay altogether.. compared ..with ; £700 lormerly: It would: ■]».--.found that strangers in blood., would, have -to, : pa y :an -.: aggrc:g^.e n n d n Ut5, v f 25 , cent «nan-estate worth ..£so,ooo,,.whereas .only;;l3; per cent, was demanded, formerly. ; fie was'afraid, that the dividing line between: taxation and confiscation was very narrow in some cases. .Mr. HERDMAN .(Wellington North) expressed tho ; opinion that money, which would otherwise be -invested, in .usefulandustries; would by'this BiU_bo diverted into tho public exchequer, and would probably be wasted by an improvident Administration.-He did not believe that there was any need .for the extra taxation.•'■ ' r'■ Mr.HEßKlESfrauranga) thought that if the retrenchment in the Civil Service was genuine the additional taxation should not be necessary : He particularly-objected to tho provisions' in regard to gift duty.'.- , ... The 'PRIME MINISTER: denied that any injustice was do'no-'.by.limiting the Exemption in the case of;Widows,and.stated that in the past there had beerin'number of'cases in which large cstates.had been left entirely to the widow'for the purpose,of evading'the estate and succession duties.,-With regard to the alleged sevority,;of .Uie-siiccejssion duties,- he urged that-the man who had not contributed to an had had wealth bequeathed to him, was in a different-position from the man who worked to build up' ari estate.. 'No"law, the intention of which was to prevent evasion, would bo carried out so .strictly, as Mr. Herries suggested might bo done in the case,of:the gift duty. -* The third reading was agreed to at 11-pm and the Bill:was passed. ': - ' < --, . ■'- •'*

NAVAL DEFENCE BILL; SECOND READING MOVED. In moving the second reading of tho Naval Defence Bill, which deals with'the Dreadnought offer,,::- -'.'■■ ■"■ ,5H The; PRIME MINISTER briefly'outlined the measure. He stated that the building of the ship would bo carried out by the Admiralty,and the cost was not to exceed two millions! .In addition.to the ordinary power taken under the -Bill, -it ( was .'necessary for. bonds or. script to'bc issued for progress payment while the 6hip 'was in" course of construction. They would disappear at the end of the time when the loan:for the whole anumnt was authorised and put on the market, who*. r 'these bonds would bo ■ taken up.;': The ■, loan <tvould be raised on the completion of the ship, or at the most con-' vonient time, when the market was most ;satisfactory. 'lhe necessity- for issuing • the bonds had beon explained to him when ho was in London. ..A- similar: course had .been: followed by Canada somo: timo ago jn regard :to tho raising of'some loans for that Dominion. Provision was made in the Bill for a sinking fund of i per cont, to bo paid to the Public ■Trustee,-which would ! enable the repayment the two million pounds in a, little .under' eighteen years.--The whole amount of "the loan would therefore, be'paid oil during this genera--tion,'and that would be at the rate of 7J per cent, oh the total of two millions. The' total amount of. the interest and sinking fund, therefore, weuld not tcally ,bo a very .heavy contribution from- this country towards the : iiaval defence of the.Empire and Now Zealand. The Prime Minister reviewed the naval agreements made in the past with Australia, by which .€29,712 was paid in 1891, and the amount was- afterwards raised, to £40,000, which re-, mained the' annual contribution till the Naval Subsidy Act'was passed in 1908, by which tho amount'was.fixed : at .£IOO,OOO. . ; , .■;,-■'

,The.Conference. ~,. , ! ' ' At the conference,'the Dreadnought offer in various'-aspects was frequently roforred ...to/' Tho -documents which had been circulated represented ;.only.'. a portion 4 of what' took place; in. connection- with tho •''.. con- :, l'orehco. .'•'.' What, 'was contained in'. the ! papers;was settlod by.,tho Imperial authorities Thp report of .the proceedings' at tiro. Naval' Conference, for instance, -were, not included, ,bo-i I causr members, spoke freely on confidential I i!matters.. He'-might' inform; members that ;the; [ Government had. for' its' own privatoinforma--' Mtion a:full -report with- reference. to : the con.!

ference. lhat night ;ho proposed to deal only with the naval aspect of defence. Sir Joseph then read.that portion of the statement made in the House of Commons by the Primo Minister of England which related to naval defence. Next he read; tho Admiralty memorandum in regard :to ' ' Imperial defence. Other portions. of the documents read by the Prime Minister included letters which passed between Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. Mlienna, and which have been previously published, incorporating the terms of tho naval agreement so. far as New Zealand is concerned. Alternatives Open to New Zealand. He went on to-say that the three-cornered agreement between. England and, Australia and ■S .4 caland came to an end automatically with the establishment of the Australian unit. Of course, it was open to New Zealand - to make a fresh agreement. If New Zealand had gone' ini lor a local navy, even oh the basis O J™SJ IS ' 1 W' it would run into at least .£600,000 per annum. New Zealand was bound. I therefore,- to. do one of two things: either join the 'British Navy, or establish a local unit. « t-T Zea ; an 'l attempted to- combine with Australia with reference to' defence, it would be value ess if. left at present size, and weakcned if divided into two sections. Unless Now Zealand contributed a-large amount, it would get A-ery little help from an Australian-New Zealand fleet. In that connection it had to be borne ui mind that Australia had a very largo seaboard. If by any chance a blow were struck at the British Islands, and the British ileet could not win, a local fleet would be of small avail to New Zealand. It was far better to assist to strengthen the British Navy as a whole, as was proposed by tho Bill. Mr. Massey's Views. M Jf; MASSEY said this subject was thoroughly, threshed out during-, the short session, ■' and :no important events had happened since. It. was not a party question, and ho did not want to make party capital.out of it. He did not agree, however, .that the Prime Minister had adhered to the proposals made in New Zealand, jrhich was that a Dreadnought should for service in Homo waters. He di<r not thmk there would have been much enthusiasm to provide a Dreadnought for the China&as.- He gathered that it was intended that the present agreement with regard to the Australian fleet should terminate at the end of the .present term-about 1912 or 1913-and there were to be three units instead, with New Zealands vessel as tho flagship in the China Seas. He was pleased to note that the control would pass automatically to the Admiralty. The British Government would' contribute- ,£250,000 a year to the maintenance of the Australian unit, while New Zealand would contribute ,£250,000, not perhaps directly,'.to Britain itself. When the Admiralty decided that separate national units were_ better than "one flag, one fleet, one control,' New Zealand should have reconsidered the position. Instead of the present left-handed arrangement, it would have been better if New Zealand had co-operated with Australia, and he believed that that would have been more welcome to the Home authorities.

■: Sir. Joseph Ward: No; that is not'so. " Mr.Massey said lie had heard opinions which led him to believe that such an arrangement would have been, at all events, received with favour, by the Home Government. there was a no.; doubt that there would be a dock' in New Zealand in the future which would take.the largest man-of-war. New Zealand was giving up th© protection ■' of' ships like the Powerful, the Challenger, and the Encounter for the immediate protection of vessels of the-Bristol.type. Our' New [ Defenders.' ' According to what he could gather, the Bristol ship was to the Dreadnought as 6 to .100. It was stated that the Bristols were more fitted for scouting-.than for.■ fighting. In view of the polition' he hoped that New' Zealand would at.once go in for.a satisfactory scheme of internal defence. Butting the Dreadnought at 100, the-Powerful was' equal to 30, and as he had said the Bristol represented 6. As regards: the Indomitable it was well known that it was almost equal to the Dreadnought. The .arrangemcnt.,now.-made;;was. one that tfas. intended to:continue for centuries to come. Ho looked forward to.the time when Canada, Australia, and New Zealand would be-able to put enough ships of war into these seas to protect them against any foreign attack. The influenoeof Canada,would be much greater when the'Panama'Canal "was completed. [[["'' . New Light on' the Offer.' :; During the last few weeks additional lighthad been thrown on the Dreadnought,offer by ; , Jan. ex-colleague of'tho 'Prime -Minister; ■ who had .stated that themombers 'of the Cabinet were 'induced to c«'nsontetp'"the':-proposal (because they •weregiventtf'undeYstan&^that-a''/terrible crisis 'had occurred.,' 'Was there,a crisis?; In an .interyimfc-.giyert:;to - the/."Manohester ..Guardian"; during his visit fsEhgldnd>-Sir Joseph WanHvas' ireportei,, as .saying that-there., was'no sensa-': New Zealand, ind.-.that the posi-'. 'tioi wns'not one .of danger, as far as he'was* aware.. But .that, was not what; the. Prime': Minister said in his telegram to the. New Zea-' land,editors. ~ln that telegram he stated, that,' "the situ'ation'is much graver .than" is" gener-' ally supposed or published," and the offer was one that would greatly help Great Britain in. the crisis. .He also; spoke of rallying. to the assistance of-the Mother Country./in a "time of imminent danger." Which of the two state-' ments,.was right?. . They could not both, be ; right." It was '..no wonder, that many of the people of this country—thousands of thorn—had come to the conclusion that tho Government's offer was not made esactly for patriotic reasons.'. "•-Sir. Joseph .Ward: We have heard that before.

Ignoring of Parliament. , Accbrdihg to the message, conveying- the:NeivZealahd offer, the offer was made by the Government and not by the Parliament.: It would bo - noticed that' the ■; offers of .other. countries were' made subject to. ratification by Parliament.. ' , • ■:',.-.. ..,....,.. ; Mr. Taylor: Why-did you endorse the offer in Parliament? ■ '•.'■■:-."• . Mr./Massey-.Because thW. country was committed to the .expenditure. .;.,,.- ...... : Resuming, Mr. ; Massey said,the question was: Was'there a crisis?. If there,was not.the offer ought not to have been-made;- if there was Parliament should have been convened or the offer should have been made "subject to the approval o'f Parliament." In the event ;of the iEmpife requiring assistance, New Zealand ivould only, bo too eager to offer her best. He was certain that "the Dominion could not get the money at 3J per cent., net. Eighteen years hence, the New Zealand ship would be on the scrap-heap. ' Sir.'Joseph: I am. not sure, Mr.;Massey added; that :any- 'similar offerin the future would be very carefully : scrutinised.

:Mr/;Taylbr—Aa "Hysterical" Action. \ : -• ■ "(Mr. TAYLOR (Christchurch North) declared ■ that, the offer was :really a hysterical action based'on a-very cleverly-manipula.ted cam-,-' paign' of newspaper misrepresentation. As'a result of: the outrage on constitutional rights which took place in connection with the offer, the Ministry, should have been instantly thrown put of office. He could not imagine why. Mr. Massey, did , not object; -it .was" a peculiar-' 'stylo V of '•' party warfare. . The Dreadnought, business was. a piece Vof pure unadulterated;plunging. In Committee-ho intended to move that .the burden of -interest should: not fall >on- tie people who earned their living by their individual labour,-and' should fall on property exclusively. The British Government did all that it could possibly do' to get rid of the offer, and the dispatches 'showed, that the 6hip was on Great Britain ultimately.: All the Dnperial: authorities wanted was that, colonies should: make a more generous contribution to the inoreased cost of the Navy at this end of the world. When a sane, level-headed Liberal party canie along—and it would-do so in' a year or two—it would know what to do .with the naval agreement, and it would put it on a proper footing without refusing. to do' its duty to the British Empire, and no more Dreadnoughts would be given. The-very-men-in ,tho Old Country whose - newspaper scare carried the .Prime Minister off his feet ,were now trying to defeat .the plans of the Asquith Government to. raise -money .which would be' used for naval defence. - The country had endorsed the Prime Minister's offer, as many a father had ' to. : pay up . on a cheque forged :'by his son on the ' father's banking account. The country would like to repudiate the offer il it could,do so honourably As a protest;against .the manner-,in which the offer was made, he intended during the,secondreading to call for a division on the Bill' Mr i.Taylor;.criticised the spasmodic efforts which .had been made,:to deal; with', the-question of internal - defence: The only satisfactory feature was that New Zealand had the right to modify the naval agreement at any. time it liked, after .it had been observed for a year or so; He• believed that the agrconient would prove very tomporary, and that before long wo should prqbably bo co-operating with Australia, instead of following tho present arrangement ■Now, Zealand's battleship would be on tho scrap-heap 15 years.:" Mr. Fisher's Criticisms. 1 .Mr. FlSHEß;••'(Wolliiigton .Central) averred • that, in, connection with the ratification of the offer, the-Leader: of the Opposition v:as placed • in.' an, awkward position, for tho country -was led to'• believe,that, it' was made in view of a ■ crisis haying urhMn. Tho 'Prime -Minister had ,lc,d tho people,-to believe that he had iii: his possession .certain important information/which ; it',now appeared.did not in reality exist,- Was it'not- a' tact that the' Secretary-of State iu tho course of his reply .to the mcasase^coiivey-

ing the offer, .stated:—"So far as tho -coming financial year is concerned, , the provision ;and powers for which fauction is being asked in tho Naval ' Estimates now beforo Parliament afford ample security." ; Whilst the per capita expenditure on naval defence at Home was; 15s. 5Jd., Australians paid Is. 3Jd. apiece, and. Now Zealand.paid 2s. 2d. per head. He could not understand why the Prime Minister had stood aloof from Australia in the'matter of'defence. If New Zealand were asking for a political or a financial union with Australia he would object. The'only solution in to colonial defence was going to be the co-operation of the defence, forces in the various States. • He had always'believed' that the action of'the'Prime Minister was'hasty, ill-, considered, and ill-advised. Parliament had been forced to agree to the offer to uphold the honour of the country. This country could not stand sufficient expenditure for adequate internal defence as well as.the cost of naval defence; ...

Mr. Wilford's Speech. Mr. WlLFOED'(Hutt).said that if there was one thing for which he admired the Prime Minister it was because he took upon him6eli tho responsibility of the Dreadnought' offer. The Australian national unit would entail an expenditure of four millions at least, and would cost, at the low British rate of pay, .£600,000 a year. If New Zealand were to co-operate with Australia, the cost to this country would be three times the cost of the system adopted. The contribution of 3s. a head that would be made in connection with the offer was not a big liability for partners in a great Imperial concern." "With' regard to the position of tho New ; Zealand battleship, it was only fourteen days' voyage to tho China Sea. Mt. Massey: TVe might be smashed .up in fourteen days. Mr. Wilford maintained 'that the .danger would not be in these waters, but in the North Sea, and. it was necessarv to' streng+hon the British Fleet.- Within the'next few years, there should be established an Imperial Parliament, or Council, or Board, for the consideration of the common interests of the Mother Conntry and the Dominions., He regretted that there was any difference 'of opinion in , the House on the subject of the Dreadnought offer, which he believed would be very generally endorsed, throughout the country. Mr. James Allen's Views. Mr. JAMES ALLEN • (Bruce) said that the question was far above party politics. There was no. doubt that the country had been led astray when the. Dreadnouglit offer. was made, they were led into a.kind of hysteria "thron?h the newspapers that were influenced by the Prime Minister's unfortunate telegram, which was intended to be confidential, but had been published. Time and again the Prime Minister said in the past that the Pacific was nothing compared with the North Sea. It was : to be regretted that : New Zealand had discarded the friendship of Australia, which was aiming at'the guarding of the Pacific. Sir Joseph: There was none to discard. Mr. Allen: He believed the Australians were following a right policy, by establishing a unit, and he was sorry Now Zealand was not joining handsvwith them. ■■• ■•

Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha). also favoured the establishment of a local navy.', Mr. Dillon also spoke. - • Prime Minister in Reply. ' The PRIME MINISTER, in replying, said the cost of a fleet unit would be prohibitive to Now Zealand,' and less than a fleet unit would bo of little" value. The suggestion that the Dreadnought should be placed on the China Station was made by the Admiralty. Sir Joseph quoted a speech by Sir Edward Grey and the acceleration of the British naval programme as evidence of.the gravity of tho situation. . ■' ' " - The-second reading was agreed to and the House, at 1.20, then.rose.