“OFF COURSE” BETTING

Press, Volume LXXXIII, Issue 25177, 7 May 1947, Page 9

“OFF COURSE” BETTING

Attitude of P. and T. Department EVIDENCE AT COMMISSION The “off course” betting scheme suggested by the New Zealand Racing and Trotting Conferences to the Royal Commission on Gaming and Racing had been considered by the Post and Telegraph Department, said Charles Oliver Coad, deputy-director-general, of the department, when he gave evidence to the commission yesterday. It was considered that the scheme could be handled bv the department with the present facilities and without extra staff on Saturdays and national holidays if betting traffic outside the scheme was substantially reduced. * Local telephone calls would involve no increase in staff, the witness said. Toll traffic under the proposed scheme would not be big; and if there was a considerable reduction in the present betting traffic, the witness anticipated that the total toll calls would be less than at present. Details would require to be worked out if the department was asked to handle such a scheme, and the witness could express no opinion about Government policy. To Mr W. E. Leicester, counsel for the Dominion Sportsmen’s Association, the witness said the department tried to' maintain a balance between a contented staff and service to the public. Difficulties in obtaining staff were showing a tendency to disappear, he said. Mr J. R. Marshall, who appeared for the Associated Churches, said that some persons had conscientious objections to assisting any gambling facilities. He asked what would be the attitude of the department to any toll clerk who objected in such a way. Mr Coad replied that if there were any objectors they could be transferred to other work. No complaints had been received. When he had given evidence before the commission at Auckland the suggested scheme was generally one of telegraphing bets, said Gabriel A. Wilkes, president of the Post and Telegraph Association and Postal Officers Guild. He had considered the system suggested by the conferences, and was satisfied that it was quite workable. Improvement to System Replying to Mr C. S. Thomas, for the New Zealand Trotting Conference, Mr Wilkes stated that he could see ways that could improve the system. Referring to the transmission of off course” bets to the totalisator, he said that each province could send bets direct to the totalisator at any race meeting, and send to the head office in Wellington only those bets whicn were on race meetings in other parts of the country. ‘ s The chairman (Mr Justice Finlay): This scheme would not offend against the idea you advanced- at Auckland? Witness: No. We think it would slight increase in the work on Saturdays and national holidays would not necessarily mean an increase in the number of staff employed, said the witness in reply to Mr A. T. Donnelly, who appeared for the Racing Conference. The association did not object, to extra work required of the normal staff, but opposed any interference with the leisure of other members of the staff on Saturdays. If there was not a substantial decrease in the present volume of Saturday and holiday work his association would protest, said the witness to Mr Leicester. He thought there would be a substantial reduction if the scheme was introduced. John Andrew Christie, a public servant employed at Lake Coleridge, was called as a witness by Mr Leicester. He said there were about 50 men employed at the lake, and almost half of them were interested in racing and trotting. If there was no legal way of placing bets the men would bet with a bookmaker, and make their bets by telephone. , . The witness said he had read in the newspapers about the “off course” betting scheme suggested by the New Zealand Racing and Trotting Conferences, and he did not think it would meet the needs of his fellow workers. There was no daily mail service, and often the men did not know what the acceptances were until •♦the day of the race. Up-to-date information came over the air. There were frequently long delays in getting through on the telephone, and it was important that the men should be allowed to make their bets right up to the time of starting the race. Another thing of importance was that most of the men wanted to know what had happened to their first bets before they made further investments. To Mr Donnelly, the witness said that the men had to ring through to Christchurch to place a bet with their bookmaker. A railway surfaceman stationed at Oaro, in the Kaikoura district, James William Thin, estimated that 75 per cent, of his workmates followed racing, and that about the same percentage of the male population of Oaro bet with bookmakers. ' “Before I went to Oaro, the police had employed two members of the force to work on public works doing labouring jobs,” said the witness. “These two men were really police spies’ sent to detect cases of betting with bookmakers. When I first went there I was suspected of being a police agent, and I was not able to do any betting myself, and the betting of my working mates was seriously curtailed. Popularity of Bookmaker The bookmaker is popular among ™y, fellows, partly because we are able to bet m 2s 6d or 5s amounts, and partly because we can regulate our betting during the day according to results. There was a bookmaker :at Oaro and we never had any difficulty in obtaining settlements. me to say definiteiy that there is a genuine demand amongst the workers with whom J '! a ye been for ‘off course’ betting woula w’4 nd 1 a !?° that these me n would welcome the licensing of bookmakers under suitable safeguards.” Witness Cross-Examined The scheme proposed by the conferences was designed to • take the majority of “off course” betting, subi™ t a i+ tO K q «? llficatl °. ns .. about cash and credit said Maurice. Barrington Smythe, who presented the scheme on Monday, when cross-ex-btX, Mr Leicester. It was not claimed that the system provided a makers equal to * hat S iven by bookThere were*no means of judging the proportion of ‘‘off course” betting the scheme should take up before it could be considered reasonably efficient, he said. It could take up all that was offering. Referring to a class of persons who were not near urban centres, Mr Smythe said that the service which the scheme would give that class was dependent on the nearness of telephones, and the desire of the class to make cash deposits. Mr Leicester suggested several classes of persons who might not take advantage of the scheme. The first was those persons who waited for the latest information about jockeys, or drivers, scratchings, and the condition of the course. The witness said that initially those persons would not be catered for. Persons who waited for results before they bet further would not be catered for for two races only because of the one and a half hours’ time limit. The system was not designed to attract persons who wanted to keep dividends either up or down, said the witness, answering a question whether owners, jockeys, drivers and trainers would use the scheme when for their own purposes they did not wish to reduce the dividends. A majority of the staff of clerks required would be employed only on Saturdays and holidays, Mr Smythe said. He estimated the number required throughout New Zealand as 2000. At present it was not considered necessary to inquire about the availability of suitable shop or office accommodation for agencies. Mr Smythe suggested that there would be no difficulty in obtaining sufficient part-time workers. “We could possibly take on some of the bookies who would go out of business,” he said. ‘‘They at least have the experi-

ence,” he added in reply to another question by Mr Leicester. He had no authority to offer positions to present bookmakers. The conferences had discussed the question of keeping open an agency in Christchurch when there was a meeting at Addington, Mr Smythe stated. It would not necessarily remain open. If there was a meeting at Dunedin on the samd day would the Christchurch agency remain open? asked Mr Leicester. The witness replied that the master had been discussed, but that he was not in a position to make a decision on it. Mr Marshall asked whether the system. would increase gambling because persons who would not bet with bookmakers might bet with the “off course” scheme.. Conversely, it would, in his opinion, result in less “off course” betting because credit betting would be eliminated, replied the witness. Mr Marshall: Would not the fact that these offices were open to the public be a temptation to people to go m and bet? Witness: No, I do not think so. No more than is a bank an inducement to people to go in and deposit money. Mr Marshall: If a cash bettor wanted to bet from race to race would he not be forced to htmg around a bar or other place waiting for results? Mr J. W. Heenan (a member of the commission): He can’t be in a bar between 2 and 4. The witness said that the broadcasting of race results probably facilitated betting with bookmakers. He thought that the broadcasting of results and dividends would be of assistance to the scheme. Referring to the English firm of Tote Investors’ Ltd., Mr Smythe said that it was run on a credit system. The chairman said that the English law prohibited cash betting and insisted on credit betting, whereas the reverse applied in New Zealand. He thought the prohibition was imposed in England to prevent the congregation of persons at. particular places. Tote Investors’ Ltd., issued printed matter encouraging persons to bet, as they were in active competition with licensed bookmakers, Mr Smythe said. No encouragement would be given under the proposed scheme. When Mr Heenan asked what consideration had been given to making provision for 5s bets, Mr Thomas said that the conferences would consider the matter, and do their best to provide an answer to the commission.