DISMISSAL OF OPERATORS.

Press, Volume LXVI, Issue 20024, 4 September 1930, Page 15

DISMISSAL OF OPERATORS.

INJUSTICE ALLEGED.

STRONG WORDS IN THE

HOUSE.

REINSTATEMENT FAVOURED.

jTBJS PRESS Special S«rtie«.]

WELLINGTON, September 3

Bxeeptionaly strong criticism of tho action of the Post and Telegraph Department ift dismissing five officers at Anckland last Decembor for what was ■field to be an illegal use of an official 'telephone was expressed by members of tie House of Representatives to-day, when the petitions wero reported back from the M to Z Public Petitions Committee.

Jlnch interest was arousod in the cases v ß t the time, it being alleged that a telephone in the Auckland Post Office . j, a( j been used for betting purposes. The Committee expressed the opinion that the punishment imposed upon L. C. Bains was unduly excessive, and that ' the petition should be presented to the .-Government for most favourable consideration. It also considered that the punishment was too severe in the cases > o f R. Blair, J. H. Edwards, E. W. 8. , Smith, and E. W. Anstis, and it recommended the petitions for the Government's favourable consideration. The , ; findings were endorsed in each case. Injustice Alleged. 4 < "This case is probably unique in the annals of the House," said Mr A. Harris Waitemata), who presented the repetition of Bains to Parliament. He said think that so much public l Reeling had been engendered over the action of a Government Department gg in this instance in which several v ■ offloera had been dismissed. So far as was concerned there had been a ; gitte ffiiearriage of justice, and it was of the Government to put the jsi&er right at the earliest possible i»cts were that the executive tt the Auckland Post Office , wire attached to a telephone d as set aside for the private ae staff. As a result of what ■d it was alleged that several lad been guilty of using the at for betting purposes and e dismissed from the service. ' ease he had received a tele;h certain information about K for his mother, and aB his a going.to the Takapuna races lit the information would be ed by her. There was no reale should not ring her and give information contained in a lessage to himself. He with as charged with a serious lthough he was not accused of official information. AH that said against him was that he an office telephone for the iqn of information dealing ngv .Evep_ if he bad committed eby 5, using this telephone in _ manner the penalty was with- . JM.'juky justification. He had had 17 ?ystei£iervice with the Department and shotted Mm to be the possessor j|f an' excellent record, ft'* What influenced the Department instantly to diamiss this man is beyond #7 comprehension," Mr Harris said, worse than punishment, it is " ; This man has been shock- , ff oy treated by the Department." Without Parallel. "If on* were to hunt the records from of New Zealand to the other it Would, be difficult to find a parallel , 'fof.ttfl jmniahmerit meted out in this t Mr M. J. Savage (Lab., gjgjjrauwd West},' in endorsing Mr HarWhile not putting the ajppMfot forward in defence of the i SHnmiiade against certain officers, Mr karaiffi'4flclaTßd that the Department .defend the nature of the MlHMUnft -it was alleged had been BHPfolegalfr. The fact that such tele- | ' Hpat Were accepted showed the lengths Hn&ctepthg to which'the Post and TcleHHroh system was used in the past, and Hnnmld be well for the Postmasteri|B|fat to have his ear t6 the ground HBP&t' connexion. HMRSF/tfo not suggest he should tap added Mr Savage. "I do HKjMicVe in the spy system. That is |9N^|y > 'playing the game. It would be IsjßJSflttcr, if some of the chief officers would go into the and say, 'Look here, Hnßwngii ate not as they should MraKflfaj! make clear that if anything of occurred in the future there to bo some dismissals. That IMlffj jw playing the game, and better be obtained from the by adopting underground It would be fair to chalDepartment to show one MBBfeffWe b,f leakage of information. HBgOMkfcpe was in connexion with |||P|rs 'lf the Department were about this it would M||®^.W. # toatter further. I say that of tracing the alleged wft a wrong, that the basis of HNKfaMIIQ is -illegal, and could not in HH&uwuse be substantiated before that the sentence is proportion to the alleged jjsßSirj?]!.'■■o far as he had been able J ,^ ras n ° •' UBtification or I Mistake. blunder and a piece Wtielty inflicted by the Dedeclared Mr B. Semple East). "I hope the will realise that the made a mistake," he WBgaS&l Minister had any justice ■BS§|£* , 11l he would set the matter immediate effect to the recommendations .for most Jordan (Lab., Mannkau) Fffffrffiffin i Punishment was ex--Iconsidered that the Dep ? a t once take steps to was only right that ■MraShU ft 8® official information BgTOlm it should be 6 been no suggestion kSK|m l"j P*caent case. Cabinet had P™E'Sk-ti kT* rectify what appeared UHhuIX, * glaring injustice. aae^r-Ctoneral ' s Powers. Ward (U., Invercargill), BjaßKaib'T' P, va te secretary to his Ward, when he was " caao bad como HmßSiMfiwi » S one i nto j ' aw on the point. HHK 'Wovered that the PostControl over the n Tel °graph Departhe Was unable Bet th« matter |

mftted eV6 T " a Wr 2 ng had been com - Warrt o- V1^ W 0 tllo P oai tion, Mr with tlin <3 r r *?° Seph had got in touch K G Ik S ° llcit °r-General, Mr A. Fair, the Jw° °/ 6 OUt the statement that to co^lT a A er " General had n ° power in thelt Btaff - This was vested iie Secretary of the Department.

Minister Should be Supreme. a 'llL a * m nb ® olut ely astounded and at th P u Un i° rßtand the statement by member for said M r %H r . lght (R -' Wellington Suburbs). J?he Minister for Labour: You should Pi-fiur*'i were a Min ister of the wown long enough. TT<^LY right snid i<: B PP ear ed that the Wt .I® powcrless > and that it had to h °Zl« r% c ° mmandß of Departmental u ' that were so, the sooner the power of the Departmental heads was curtailed the better. (Hear, hear.) fe would not stand for such a state of -r, consi dered .it monstrous fni a i < r e i ? ost . mastcr * Gcneral should be ; ad no P ow er over his Department, and he was not aware that y Act had been passed by Parliament giving the head of a Department greator power than that of his Minister. He understood that the Minister . su P rcme i n every case. A more glaring case of injustice nas nover been revealed in this House," t Wright added. "No more sovere punishment has ever been meted out to a man who did not deserve it. To discharge a man on these grounds is nothing short of a crime. I appeal to Cabinet to bring in legislation to alter this state of affairs. (Hear, hear.) It a gross act of injustice is to be perpetrated in this way, arid if the Minister in. charge of the Department and Cabinet have no voice in the matter, then the sooner it is altered the better."

An Amazing Case. | "This is one of the moot amazing cases Parliament has listened to for many years," said tho Leader of the Labour Party, Mr H. E. Holland, who went on to say that he accepted the word of the members of the Committee as to the evidence that was given. He contended that if that was all the evidence there was not a shred of justification for the dismissal of Eains. hat would be said if a member of the House got a telegram with racing tips? "I know no member does," said Mr Holland, amid laughter. But supposing a member received such a telegram, and lie rang up a relative a'nd passed on the message, what would be said if the House insisted on expelling that member because he used a telephone in the building for the purpose of passing on the message t Mr Holland added that he was astounded that the Postmaster-General had not risen to assure the House that Rains would be reinstated. Ho could not believe that the Potatmaster-General was powerloss to do anything. Parliament was surely superior to the head of a Department. The dismissals were sufficient to arouse the indignation of every. member Parliament who had any sense of justice.

Mr Donald Explains. The Postmaster-General, the Hon. J. B. Donald, said he had felt rather dubious about rising earlier to give his view, because he did not want to prejudice tho case of Eains before it was considered by Cabinet. He knew Eains and had a high opinion of him. Mr Semple: That is not much good to him. The Minister said he did not know so much about that. The member for Wellington East had made a serious statement when he had said that if the Postmaster-General had any justice in hitt, being he would do so. • "I consider that no one in this House should receive a taunt like that,'' Mr Donald said. "I know it may be Parliamentary to make suggestions like that, but I would not like to think that there was any member in this House who had no justice in his be* ing." . Mr Semple: That is a test for you. Mr Speaker: Orderl Order! The Minister said Eains had been dismissed because he had divulged information which had come, not for himself, but for others. In conveying the message to his sister over the telephone he had said, "There is nothing GlS6«'' Mr Semple: That was never proved. The Minister said it would have been Impossible for 'the Magistrate to give judgment against Eains if he had not been guilty of an offence. The House could be satisfied that the case would receive the consideration it demanded. He would be only too pleased to do all he reasonably could for Eainß.

Betting Telegrams. It had been stated that betting telegrams were allowed to go through without question. Mr Savage: Who said that? "I want to say," said the Minister, "that we do not allow betting telegrams to go through the office. It is not the easiest thing in the world to detect a betting telegram. For instance, a-man. may send a telegram like this: 'Eighteen sacks of wheat, fifteen sacks of oats.' You can't stop a telegram like that." Mr Samuel: Are they all sent that way! (Laughter.) The Minister: A good many of them are. We have stopped telegrams like that, only to find that we are Bto PP in j> commercial telegrams. If we think a telegram contains a betting message we ask the sender ,to sign a statement assuring us that it is not a betting telegram It had been stated that the telephone used by Eains was not an official one and should have only on urgent business, and not for the purpose it was used. T e me the offices had been warned of the co sequences of divulging information a when they were convicted had them selves to blame.

Bookmakers' Messages. Mr H. S. S. Kyle (E., Riccarton) said ♦i.« ovidencb given to the Committee showed that 750 betting telegramsjent through the Auckland Post the day in question. They %. legal. What had become of them? Th y were forwarded and dehvercd to "Hippo." He. was well known at Auckland. He was the se ® re 7 f . nn the Auckland Bookmakers' Associate if there was such an organisation. A member: Hypo is his name. Mr Kyle: Well, Hypo then. IJ thinking of Hippo for h^popotamu. "The Post and Te^ ph nn D ,ffi\ Wellington North), receive ® ■, venue from bookmakers eg tavo is not a fact that these P P cash that great privilege ofnotpay g for their telegrams, but paywß their or two afterwards by cheque, for horse-racing » ctiv^ ies * That i„ not The Postmaster-General: lhai HO.

A Unanimous the question with an the In most of the concurred, various speakers he heart y He felt that Rains was suffering a grave injustice. i, n nfl<!t" said "The man is entl^^ ll<? „ a] informaMr Lye. "It wft9DOt telephone. I tion he conveyed ove been cons'der a grave injustice , g dealt out to this . when a man a shocking state of affa

can have his living taken away from him on inference. The telegram was not illegal and it was unfortunate for him that he had said that nothing else was down. He was convicted purely on inference. I hope Cabinet will take into consideration the reinstatement of this man without any delay whatever."

Blair's Case. The recommendation in Blair's caso was next discussed. '' The petitioner was not even on duty when ho was alleged to have committed an offence against the regulations," said Mr Savage. "It is remarkable if a man off duty as Blair was is not entitled to ring up a friend on duty and discuss any matter with him, sporting or otherwise. If the Post and Telegraph Act means anything, I should say tho Postmaster-General has no need to be a mere cipher. Even supposing tho law prevented him from action, surely the fact should have opened hiß eyes to his weakness under the law. We are expected to believe that the PoßtmasterGeneral was powerless to act." Mr G. CL Black (U., Motueka): That was the Solicitor-General's opinion. Mr Savage: Then I would like to have the opinion of some other solicitor.

"I want to emphasise the fact that at the time this occurred I was not Post-master-General," said Mr Donald. In fairness to the Secretary of the Department he read an extract from the instruction book to show that officers had been warned that the penalty would be dismissal and prosecution for the improper use of private telegrams passing through the office. Mr Lye: What is the date of that!— It was thirty years ago. An Alleged Admission. Continuing, Mr Donald said he did not want to prejudice the Committee's recommendation) but Blair had come to him when he was Minister for Industries and Commerce and had said he had not spoken the truth to the Magistrate, and that he had asked another member of the staff to tell a lie to protect him.

Mr H. E. Holland: Was that evidence given to the Committee?

Mr Donald: I do not know. Mr Holland: Well, it Bhould not be given by you here. Mr Donald: That statement was made to me by Blair in the presence of another party. . "Almost Unpardonable." "An extraordinary thing has happened," declared Mr P. Fraser (Lab., Wellington Central). "The case has been tried by ft Committee of this House, the evidence has been given, tho Crown Prosecutor from Auckland was brought down to conduct the charges against Blair and others, and presumably all the evidence which could bo brought by the Department was placed before the Committee which judged tho cases on that evidence. Now the Postmaster-General says he has no desire to prejudice the case of this petitioner, and then ho proceeds to do an almost unpardonable thing. If the Postmaster-General wanted to make that statement he should have done so before the Committee. I question if a similar instance of this kind has ever previously occurred in the history of this House."

Mr Donald: I thought it was known. Mr Fraser: I think the House should dismiss the Minister's statement from its mind altogether, or that it should let the whole matter go back to the Committee.

Mr Donald: I thought this evidence came out in the Court of Appeal. Mr Fraser: What Parliament is concerned with is what was before the Committee. If important evidence is withheld ho» can justice be' done! Now we have something thrown at us after the decision has been arrived' at and when there is no opportunity of reply. We ought not to have hoard about it in this peculiar manner. In the meantime the Minister should withdraw his statement and express regret for saying it here and say he is prepared to make the statement before the Committee.

' T assure the House that if I thought the information was not known I would not have made the statement," replied Mr Donald. "I am quite prepared to make the statement before the Committee and in this House or outside it."

Mr Lye: Was this stated to the Committee? Mr Donald: It was told to me. Mr Lye: And I can tell the House something that was told to me. Mr Donald: I am sorry if I have prejudiced the case before the House. I am quite willing to withdraw the Statement. A Technical Breach. "I am disappointed at the Post-master-General's statement," said Mr Lye. "Much has been heard about warnings which have been issued. The Postmaster-General quoted a warning issued by the Commissioner of Telegraphs in 1886 to show that officers were duly warned." Mr Donald: I did no such thing. Mr Lye: Well, that is how I understood it. The same regulation was read to the Committee.

Continuing, Mr Lye said he had met Blair in Auckland long before the session opened. Blair said then that he had rung up a man on duty and had asked if anything were doing. He was only guilty of discussing the prospects of certain horses at Takapuna with a friend on duty. If the Postmaster-Gen-eral alleged that Blair had admitted telling a lie to the Magistrate, that fact should have been told to the Committee and ample opportunity should be given to the Postmaster-General to prove his statement. Blair was guilty of only a technical breach of the regulations. He was a married man with two children, and the punishment was altogether too severe.

The recommendation in Blair's case was then referred to the Government for favourable consideration.

As the time of the 5.30 p.m. adjournment was very near, the reports on the petitions of Edwards, Anstis, and Smith were tabled after only a brief discussion.