PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION?

Press, Volume LIV, Issue 16403, 24 December 1918, Page 6

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION?

MOTION FOR REPEAL, STONEWALL IN CITY COUNCIL;

The public gallery in the City Conn- r cil Chamber was crowded last ovening upon the occasion of tho special meeting of tho City Council convened ' - to discuss Cr. Flesher's motion for the ; " : repeal of the special order passed by , ] the Council nearly three years ago t • providing for tho municipal elections ; being held under the proportional re- JfV presentation system. Among those present was Mr J. McCombs, M.P,, who, as a member of the Council, was primarily responsible for tho introduction ot the now system. Every member of the Council was in .. attendance, as follows: The Mayor- ' (Mr 11. Holland), and Crs. A. S. 'lay. lor, J. R. Ha} ward, H. G. Ell, A. M. Loasby, E. Peek, D. G. Sullivan, H. F. Herbert, A. Wells. 15. J. Howard, F. Burgoyney W. Nicliolls, J. W... • Beanlanu, P. R. Clinne, A. McKellar, J. A. Flesher, and A. S. "Williams. 1 • The meeting had not been long in. progress before tho proportional repre>v sentation adherents commenced to stonewall after a preliminary attempt to forestall their opponents by. a motion ' of their own in favour of proportional representation, which was, however, ruled out of order by the Mayor. If they had boen allowed to proceed with ■ this it would have meant that the motion for rescinding the resolution could not have been taken till the first motion had been disposed of, when tho whole discussion would have ' . been resumed. A MOVE CHECKED. The Mayor in opening the meeting, begged councillors to avoid all personal references to one another and to conduct themselves in a proper . , manner. Ho would call upon the mover to move his motion. Before Cr. Flesher could rise Cr. Sullivan rose and moved the following "That, having regard to the spe- > cial purpose for which this meeting: was called, namely, to consider continuance or otherwise of the specialorder mado on the 28th day of Feb1916, adopting t|ie provisions of the Local Eloctions (Proportional - Representation) Act, 1914, the ! .Christohurch City Council resolves: that in view of the fact that the' trial of proportional representation 1 ' made at the 1915 elections for members of the City Council, accomplished tho purpose intended, name- ' ly, the representation of all parties in accordance with their numerical' «" strength, the Council declares its, complete satisfaction with the syt* tem and recommends its adoption for the election of members of Par* • liament and all other elected public bodies." Cr. Sullivan said his reason for mov- ' ing tho motion was because he regarded the action taken by the gentlemen on the otl(er side as a most reactionary one and one that was going to throw back tho wheels of progress in tho city and one that would eliminate Labour representation in the Council. \ i Cr. Ell: How can we when they have got the votes? , Cr. Sullivan said lie would proceed; to prove this. ' . Cr. Williams at this stage raised a | point of order. Cr, Sullivan had referred to a resolution which was not yet before the Council. Did not this resolution take precedence P The Mayor: I must rule Cr. Sullivan out of order inasmuch as tho business before the meeting is'a resolution revoking the resolution of 1916. . i . Cr. Sullivan: 1 There' is nothing to j prevent the Council considering the resolution of 1916. : The Mayor: It is not bofore tho , meeting. , Cr. Sullivan: 16 there anything in the Standing Orders? . , The Mayor: I am not going to take any business except that for which , the meeting lias been called.REASONS FOR A CHANGE. Cr. Flesher then moved a motion re- . scinding the order adopted by the Council on January 81st, 1916, and con- : firmed on February 28th, 1916, providing for proportional representation. ! Speaking in support of his motion,, Cr. Flesher said the experience of the last election iiad proved that the new system adopted was cumbersome, unwieldy, and not understood. There had been no fewer than 799 informal votes. There had never Leon so many recorded bofore to his knowledge at a local election. Though this system had been described as a scientific one, he would ' call it an artificial ono, ana in support of this he described how the quota had been obtained by dividing the total'number of votes by 17 and adding one instead of dividing it by 16, the number of councillors to be olectod, Every vote should be of equal value, but u»r • / der the proportional representation sys-' : tem it was not, as there were more sur- > plus Citizens' Association; votes than fp Labour votes, yet both were counted as'l-Q equal. A system which produced such ' an inequitable result was not fair.' The j proportional representation scheme was going to aggravate party feeling, and vl? r.o man was gping to bo returned unless he belonged to a party. t A voice: "What about tho Indepenr dents?

Continuing, Cr. Flasher contended' that-the members .of a local body wore iy in a different position altogether to members of Parliament. The best way ■ of choosing a local body-was to select ; : the bost men, irrespective of '< colour. That was "the only way the true interests of the city wore going to», bo protected. They should be gatherod ' round that table, not with the object of boosting party, but of looking after the .city as a whole, irrespective of party. Why could - thoy not have the same happy position round the Council table as in committee? Cr. Sullivan: Because you won't let thevn.

Cr. Flesher: No, because there are newspaper reporters present and a public gathering. Proceeding, Cr. Flesher referred to. the large number of counts which had to be made at the last eloition, many of which were fruitless. If this 6ysteni was scientific there should be no coincidancos. Yet wlmt did thoy find: that the same persons sitting round the Council table that evening wero • ttio ones that had boon p'octorl at the first 7 count. The Returning Officer also informed thom that every possible vtfiy of recording an informal vote had been done, la tho interest of the best government of the ritv, the proportional representation i-vstem should be revoked Cr. Fiedler's sneoch lasted fifteen minutes. i Cr. Loasby I<r : e3y seconded Cr. j Flasher's motion, his spoccli lasting two j minutes. STONEWALL BEGINS. Cr. Sullivan strongly opposed Cr. ( Flcsher's motion, wmch he considered ' was an attempt to get rid of I<abour , representation on the Council. The j mover of tho motion, had made that I cloar, though tho assurance ho had I given to that effect was by no means necessary. Cr. Flesher had shown the utmost animosity to tho Labour interests right from the very beginning of the last Council election campuigu. (Cries of ''No.") : Cr. Sullivan: I say yes! | Cr. Sullivan went on to speak in very stiong terms against tho attitude Cr. Flesher had adopted towards Labour. Proportional representation was . the most complete expression of democracy in elections. It was certainly the most satisfactory system yet devised He quoted extensively from the stated opinion of Mr Hogben, who ,

1© said had supervised tho last ©lection, in favour of the proportional representation system. At the last election there had been a greater number of voters at the poll than ever before in. Christchurch. Tho number of voters had been 17,476 of whom no fewer than 16.676 had voted correctly. The infercnco was that with each succccding election under the system the number of informal votes would become loss as the people gradually became educated to the system. With regard to the question of expense, under tho oM system in 1915 the cost was £1279 16s 4d, while in 1917, under the proportional representation scheme the cost was £1406 15s. However, it njuf-t be remembered tiiat in 1917 there was a very greatly increased area to cater for than at the previous time, and taking nil expenses into consideration, the 1917 election showed a \ balance tn the good of about £15 over that of 1915. Or. Sullivan went on to say that the weapon that was being u- ec! against the Labour party that night m'ght prove a boomerang, and those who supported the gontlcmnn who ch mpioned the Citizens' Association might perforce retire into the obscurity of their private lives. (Laughter.) "The first past the post system," as directly opposed to proportional representation, formed the subject of his remarks for half an hour or more, large numbers of figures, descriptive of.various elections, being quoted to show that those who bail been elected had really gained considerably loss than half the total votes polled under the old system of voting. He made a strong point of the figures ho had quoted, which he considered demonstrated very conclusively the danger which existed of a minor it-' party being absolutely eliminated. New * South Wales had made provision for the proportional representation system on its Statute Book, aim although England had not exactly adopted tho system, it j had met with the approval of tho Houso of Commons. By this time C'r. Sullivan had been 6peaking for 46 minutes, and it was evident that he was the first of the "stonowallers," whose presence had beenlooked forward to with apprehension by some, and with delighted 7xpecthtion by others, Cr. Sullivan had b. en speaking dowlv and deliberately, and tho effect was becoming clearly noticeablo round the Council table, some councillors looking bored, others occasionally strolling out "for a smoke," and others conversing in distinctly audible terms. Just when interest in the soeech seemed to he absolutely waning, Cr. Sullivan remarked, in answer to an interjection, that there had been more bitterness during the two years' life of the present Council than had marked that of the previous Council, or, in fact, of any previous Council within his knowledge. , Cries of "1 hat's right," "No," etc? Cr. Sullivan: And further than that I a®, convinced that it is all entirely due to the presence of one member of the Council (glancing at Cr. Flesher). Tho only grudge I have against proportional representation is that that gentleman come into the Council under that system, v ■

'■ Cr. Howard: That was one of the accidents of the system. ; Or. Sullivan claimed that if the ma. jonty carried the ordor for revocation tney would not be abb to justify themselves to tho city; they would not be • i e »i- justify themselves to their own intelligence. They simply did what they wera told to by their leader. The .Mayor had stated that owing to party • diytßiohs little good work had been d r no , during the past two years, and bitter party feeling had been shown. He (Cr. onlhvan) claimed that the party bitterness was due to one man, and he hoped the electors would at the next election treat him in the same manner as they had at the Tramway election. He knew of another councillor who believed an proportional representation who was going to vote against it. Howard: Who said TammanyP Cr. Sullivan urged the oouncillor he was referring to not to "commit this sin against democracy, against his own conscience, and against his own intelligence that ho was contemplating." Ijhis stage (9 p.m.) Cr. Snlivnn adit that his throat was getting sore, and he did not think he could proceed • much longer, though his colleagues would like to hear him speak f: r another couplo of hours. At 9.4 p.m., after speaking for an hour and nine minutes. Cr. Sullivan sat down, stating in conclusion that tho gentleman who had brought tho motion forward that night had done more to provoke animosity ana the most bitter and antagonistic class feeling thpn had been the case for very many years.

SECOND BALLOT ADVOCATED. (Jr. Mai, tlio uoxc spumcer, was non- ■ cpinaucuu in ius attituue. H n claimed tne proportional representation - <m«3Gionwaa a non-pariy one. in wo iiiaiiar now many partie* Cfltjre were, were were omy two lobbies, tne "aye" ana the "no," and . the majority ruaed. iio suprortea second . bailees because he did not be£fF e W "tllO, iil'St paut tiie post syateni, Ihe second bailor was a nigntmare to candidates, but it ensured that the man- returned secured tne majority of the-votes cast. Mr Massey turned down the second ballot for £>arty reasons: He deplored (Jr. Suiuvan's references to party bitterness; He had not .fallen under the spell of Cr. ■ Flos her's magnetic eye. Cr. Fleshcr: 'iney think you have. Cr. Eil" was proceeding to speak in t eulogistic terms of the work of the Council when Cr. SuUivaa interrupted him by saying: "You talk differently , in the House—of our completo failure as a local body." (Laughter.) Cr. Ell: 'So X do, and I will do so again, Cr. Sullivan: What work have you oone hereP TJio Mayor: Personal remarks are . not allowed. Cr. Ell advocated the introduction of the second ballot in connexion with the .municipal elections. Cr. Taylor: You cannot get that at this election. Cr. Ell said they would only need to go back to the" ward . system to secure this. At the end of a 24 minutes' speech, Cr. EU said he had no desire to stonewall. The Mayor, he ■ considered, I 'would have advised" councillors to] V Ming their rugs and blankets with ' tjiem.

THE WARD SYSTEM. * Cr. Hay ward denied all knowledge of the term "stonewall.'' 'ine question of proportional representation was a national one. It was certainly the fairest system of voting he had come across, and he thought the Council would be making a very great mistake in throwing it over. Ir proportional representation were lost there would be nothing else for it but to go back to the oid system of the wards, so that all the people would get their fair representation, and ho himself would fight as strenuously as he could for that object. The Town Clerk had stated that the reversion could be made.

Cr. Taylor asked the Mayor for a ruling as to whether, if they abolished representation, they would become au undivided city? The Mayor read a telegram from Mr T. F. Martin, solicitor to the Municipal Corporations Association, that the passing of tho motion rescinding proportional representation would not automatically restore the wards. Cr. Taylor said that it was absolutely clear that if the present system were abolished the city would not go back to the ward system. Cr. Flesher and his supporters had not stated that they were prepared to go back to the ward system, and unless they were prepared to make a binding statement that they were willing to restore the wards, then they were deliberated misleading.

Cr. Flesher: That is not a proper remark.

Cr. Taylor: "It is a proper remark." Cr. Ell had evidently spoken on the assumption that the ward system would take the place of the present system if the latter were abolished. Cr. Howard: So did "The Press'' this morning.

Cr. Taylor: Quite bo! So did "The Press" newspaper in an editorial this morning. "THE PRESS" LEADER. Li the course of further remarks, Cr. Taylor said there was a terrible wail in "The Press" that morning. One of the arguments of "The Press" against proportional representation was that the Council had to go to the expense of printing 10,000 circulars in order to teach the people how to vote. Another was that the Citizens' Association and the Labour Party had to go to tho expense of sending out a large number of tickets with the names of candidates on them. He had never known of an election where that had not been done. In every election tho electors had been absolutely deluged with cards—and motor-cars. Another complaint of "The Press" was that Mr Hogben had been brought down from Wellington and paid a handsome fee, Cr. Flesher? What was the fee? Cr. Taylor: About £20 and his expo nsos. Cr. Fiesher: Yes. Cr. Taylor considered that in view of the historical occasion the fee was not exorbitant. He did not think much of the argument of "The Press" that the system was all right in other cases, but not hore. "I ask Cr. Flesher straight-out," proceeded Cr. Taylor, "'he can answer me now: Is it his intention to reinstate the wards ?" Cr. Flesher: I will tell you when 1 reply. Cr. Taylor: Well, that is very gratifying. I ask him again to say it now: Is it his intention to reinstate the ward system or elect the whole Council on behalf of certain individuals? Cr. Flesher did not reply. Cr. Taylor: There is no reply. There is silenco. That, I suppose, indicates be does not intend to answer the question. Cr, Taylor proceeded to state that bitter discussions had ensued in Councils previous to the present one. Cr. Howard: They had the police round once.

Cr. Taylor, later on was referring to another matter, when Cr. Sullivan said: "I will have somothing to say on that before breakfast."

Cr. Taylor: That looks as though Cr. Sullivan is going to give another speech.

Cr. Taylor claimed that if proportional representation were abolished and the wards not restored, the nonrestoration of tho wards would be a gross act of treachery to all the outlying districts. The fact that the 18 persons clected were thoso who headed the first count was purely an accident which might not happen once in a hundred vears. Cr. Tovlor concluded a minutes' speech at 11.40, the supper adjournment having occupied half an hour. Crs. Howard and Williams rose simultaneously. "Your Worship," said Cr. Williams, '! wish to draw your attention to tho late hour — Cr. Howard (to the Mayor): I havo the floor. Tho Mayor: I am afraid so. IN AGREEMENT. Cr. Howard, in the course of his remarks, referred to the fact that peoplo with offices in the city possessed tho vote at the municipal elections, despite the fact that they might be living at Sumner or New Brighton. Cr. Flesher: Would you like to alter it? ' Cr. Howard: I think it a very unfair system. Cr. Flesher: So do I. Cr. Howard: I am glad Cr. Flesher and I are in agreement for once in our lives. Some way on in the course of his remarks Cr. Howard remarked that Cr. Sullivan had perhaps overstepped the mark in stating that thero had been much bitterness in tho Council. Perhaps Cr. Sullivan and some of the others "step on the toes of our colonial friends across the table," but us far as bitterness wont —well, they should look at what went on in some other bodies.

Ct.- Hayward (laughingly): The Trades and Labour Council 1

Or. Howard: Yes, the Trades and Labour Council, because there we tackl© every question with intelligence, and wo discuss every matter with intelligence., We don't have a member moving an important motion and another seconding it with a specch of a couple of seconds as we had here xo-niglit. (Laughter.) . Cr. Howard concluded at 12.36 a.m. A TACTICAL MOVE. Cr. Williams immediately rose to his feet and moved "that the motion be now put." A point was raised that Cr. Wells had beaten Cr. Williams for the floor, mt the Mayor ruled in favour of Cr. Williams, who, he added, had risen almost contemporaneously with Cr. Howard at the beginning of the latter's speech. Cr. McKellar: I second the motion. Cr.. Taylor rose' to speak. The .Mayor: This motion cannot be discussed. / • Cr. Taylor: This motion can be discussed, and I ask for your ruling. The Mayor: It is for the Council to pay. I understand that where there is no' special order in the Council's provisions, it is for the Council to say. Cr! Taylor asked how they could have bad the historic stonewalls in Parliament.

Cr. Ell said that in oonnexion with the Inst big stonewall in Parliament the Chairman of Committees applied what was termed the guillotine. Cr. Sullivan: It deals with tedious repetition, not the point wo're raising now.

Cr. Ell said discussion on the motion would have to be confined to it.

Cr. Sullivan said that he had obtained the views of experienced Pressmen, wlio had spent years in the Parliamentary Gallery, on the matter, and all had agreed that a debate could not be closed in such a manner.

Cr. Fleshcr pointed • out that the Standing Orders governing the procedure of the House of Representatives stated "that a question may be superseded. By the previous question, viz., "That this question be now put' being proposed and negatived." Cr. Taylor considered that tinder such circumstances the motion should be: "That the question be not now put." Cr. Fleshcr: No; that it be "now put." Cr. Taylor: The debute cannot be interrupted by that motion. How could they nave had those stonewalls in Parliament, one of which lasted from one Monday afternoon till the following Saturday week?. After a consultation of the standing orders, the Mayor said he would rule Cr. Williams's motion out of crder. Cr. Wells then took the floor, and commenced by sayin" that she was going to be as loyal as she could to her party, and do her best to stonewall. (Laughter, and cries of "We thought it' wasn't supposed to be a stonewall.") Cr. Wells fulfilled her promise by speaking for 26 minutes, mainly upon the ropr'ession of the minority. Cr. Burgoyne was the next speaker, and was proceeding on his way when Cr. Flesher. rose to a point of order and asked if a councillor could read his speech The Mayor ruled that aocording to j Parliamentary rules, a speaker could j read his speech only so far as he was quoting extracts, etc. However, the 1 Council's standing orders did not pre-, vent a councillor from doing so.

AN AMENDMENT. Cr. Burgoyne then moved the following amendment: —

"That inasmuch .as the abolition of proportional representation without the revival of the ward system will bring about the first past Che post principle of voting, the effect of which will be the disfranchising of a very large body of electors, consideration of the question be postponed till after the next municipal elections."

Cr. Burgoyne's remarks occupied 19 minutes, during which Cr. Ell provided j refreshments' in the way of a bag of | peppermints and acid drops. 1 The amendment was seconded by Cr. Herbert. Cr. Herbert concluded at 2 a.m., having spoken for 25 minutes. •' PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE "I think the subject has been well debated," interposed the Mayor at this stage, "and while we have no standing orders limiting the time ot speeches, I think I will be right to limit them to the Parliamentary procedure of half an hour." A mild protest was made by Cr. Taylor, who said ho. took it that the halthour limit applied to the Address-in-Reoly, or somothing of that sort. At 2.6 a.m. Cr. Sullivan rose to speak to the amendment. He asked if it would not be a fair thing for the electors at tho next election to express their opinion on the question. That wa« what Cr. Burgoyne's amendment ai/ned at. "Do you intend to enforce your ruling?" askod Cr. Sullivan of th e Mayor, at the end of half an hour's peroration. "I do," replied his Worship, who thereupon rang the time beil. At 2.36 a.m. Cr. Taylor rose. "I have engaged a seat in the car for Akaroa at 8.30," murmured Cr. Nieholls plaintively. . The Mayor pointed out that if the motion were passed the whole business would have to be discussed again by the Council at the confirming meeting on January 27th. Could not therefore ( Cr. Taylor and his friends restrain t.ieir eloquence? • Cr. Taylor said he would ask councillors wliethor they wore in favour of restoring the wards if proportional representation were abolished. _ He asked several of the councillors this question in turn.

Cr. Williams said he was quito prepared' to if a vote were taken now to discuss that question in a month's time. Cr. Flesher said he had already said he would make a statemont in his reply to the motion. Cr. McKellar said he was not there to answer questions. Cr. Taylor said Cr. Beanland had already given a reply. Cr. Taylor proceeded to put the same question through the Mayor to Cr. Nicholls.

Cr. Nieholls: I gave y&u my reply in confidence.

Cr. Flesher; Oh, they have been trying to trap you, have they? Cr Hnyward: There is only one trapIper so far ns 1 can 6ee who is Aunf any trapping, and that's Flesher. Crs. Lonsby, Ell, and Peek made no reply to Cr. Taylor's query. Cr. Hay ward said he could hardly, imagine* a body of men so biassed and po onesided as first of to adopt | system, which seemed to suit them, any then when it prov.ed not to suit them to keep a portion of that system and throw ihe, ijalanco over. It was not fair, just, or honourable, and if tho present system wers abolished without the ward system being reinstated* h« himself would refuse to sit any longer on-the Council.