MILITARY SERVICE BILL.

Press, Volume LII, Issue 15605, 1 June 1916, Page 6

MILITARY SERVICE BILL.

CONTINUATION OF DEBATE. A RED FED AMENDMENT REJECTED. (sriXI.YL T(1 "THE TRESS.") WELLINGTON. May 31. The debate upon the Military Sen-ice Bill was resumed in the House of IJeprescntativcs this afternoon ;mmediateIv formal business (which occupied only a lew minutes) was disposed of. Such criticism as there was in the debate on the previous day had been mainly aimed at- securing various amendments with the idea of improving the measure. That strain of comment was maintained to-day. a special feature of the afternoon being an able speech from Mr L. M. Is.it: . Mr •). Craigic gave the Bill Lis hearty support. lie snicl it had evidently been well thought out, and was a pood measure. The inequality of sacrifice demanded bv voluntaryism condemned that method. JTe also supported compulsion because it sent the most fitted men away to the. front rather than youths who might volunteer. Labour talked of the inequality of sacrifice. but when this Bill proposed equality of treatment, for both rich and poor. Labour opposed ]'! , which was illogical. Too much was

made of •'compulsion" as compulsion. Our Allies were fighting under conscription. and lighting for the British Empire as well as for themselves. If no equalled their white heat of patriotism, there would be no demur to compulsion. He wondered what our men. who were enduring the horrors of war in the trenches 011 the "Western front would think if tlicy could get a phonograph record of some of the speeches made in this House? They would say, lie believed, that some of our members would do well to leave their benches in the House, go and get a riile, and do their part in the war. (Cheers.) TEMPORARY EXEMPTIONS. Air G. V. Pearco offered strong support to the Bill, but had ono or two special points to urge. This country, he said, provided huge supplies for the Old Country, and voluntaryism permitted tho men concerncd in the production of that food to go away, and their departure meant hampering various industries. Ho hoped the Bill would prevent that. The exemptions were the most important feature of the Bill, and upon the work of the Appeal Board depended the success of the scheme. In 1011 there wero 224,452 men of military age in New Zealand, and allowing for an increase of 120,000 in tho population since then (of whom one-quarter would bo men of military age), they had 250,000 men available. Allowing for one-quarter, or 65,000 men, being medically unfit, and for tho 55.000 who wero already in training, they had 130,000 men of military age. On the military quota of 2500 per month they thus had a supply for four years and four months. Mr Massey: You include tho married men ? Mr Pearce: "Even taking half for single men, you have enough for two years and two months." He would urge that men who were essential to the country's industries should l>e exempted —not altogether, but for at least twelve months, so that others who were

not essential to tlie production of coal and food could go first. There were many occupations in the towns where positions could'be filled as well by girls as by men. The Appeal Board would bo a very responsible body, and great pare should be taken in its selection and in the drawing of the regulations under ivhich it would act. QUALIFIED SUPPORT. Mr R. McCallum proved to be a qunliicd supporter of the Bill. The measure, le said, merely gave the Cabinet power o compel men, if necessary. Ho was mtirely opposed to conscription and :ompulsory service in every shape and orm, and lie could adduce one hundred ■casons in support of tluit position. Hiis, however, .vas a unique and a pecular occasion. They did not know what :onditions really obtained, but Cabinet lid, and they, as a House, bad to give ;ho Government their support and conidonce, and give them the power they "cded. He had promised to support she second reading of the Bill, but ho .vould voto against the third reading of ihe measure unless the Minister inserted a clause limiting its operation to tho period of tho war. .Mr Isitt: It is limited; it is in the ' : it ~oes out automatically. Mr McCallum: "No, it does not." He condemned the whole spirit of militarism. and said that Parliament should carefully guard its privileges. The Dt-fenco Minister was a military mnn, ind conflict would -come in the future between the rights of tho peoplo and tlie military power that was growing up. Mil ISITT'S PREFERENCE. Mr L. M. Isitt, referring to the point raised by Mr McCallum as to tho limitation of tlie Bill to tho duration of tho war, said he had consulted legal gentlemen l , and was satisfied that the Bill was properly limited. I here were ono or two alterations he in the measure, and one or two additions but ho wanted to say that he stood firmly, foursquare « u P ,inei .l )l c of tho Bill. This Hill did not give him the opportunity Voti P g f , or . or a Sainst conscription. We already hare conscription," said -VLr Isitt, in a, burst of eloquence, "and cdnscription of the most cruel, most cowardly, most blatant, and most idiotic nature. There never was a species of conscription that worked such hurt to a nation as this voluntary system, and when I have to choose between moral conscription and legislative conscription after" two years' experience of this war that has absolutely revolutionised eveiy idea that I ever had upon this subject, then I am going for legislative conscription, in preference to moral conscription every time. If I have to choose oetween the conscription thut takes three soils from a widow and sends them to the war, and at the same time loaves the five J sons of a neighbour untouched: be- j tween a conscription that seizes upon tho patriotic poor man with a wife and four children and leaves untouched the selfish man .with GOOO acres and ] an abundant income, a man who is I single. 25 years of age. and spends his time between his motor-car, the golf links, and his club; and between a conscription that seizes upon the work- ■ ing man, whom I love, the working man who does the dirty work of thi.s world "t n very moderate waw, tho mm who loves his country, and at her call «ays. 'hero a : u I.' forgetting all his disab'ltica. while on the other hand tho shirker and tho blatherskite re- . wains behind and novcrus the country

— ; —if I have to choose, then I choose " legislative* conscription.'" NOT FREE AGENTS. He wanted to know if the men who volunteered under moral conscription v.-orc free agents in the full senso of the word, Tho only man under that scheme who was a free agent was tho thick-skinned man with a soul tho size of a thimble and no patriotism. Moral conscription laid an iron hand upon everv man with a noble spirit, and a patriotic soul, and compelled him to volunteer just as surely as an enact, ment could do. Moral conscription took tho noble-minded man and left the shirker and the blaf herskito to perpetuate the race. He had been told that as the result of this stand ho was going "to go out on his ear." That was a very small matter. All ho could say was that holding the convictions that he did, ho would infinitely prefer to face legislative conscription than continue on the present lines. OPPOSITION ANSWERED. He proceeded to examine, some statements made in opposition to tho Bill.It could not strangle democratic action or liberty because as soon as tho war was over, it wont out automatically. His experience of recruiting meetings convinced him that, tho pub" lie wanted the bill. He also denied tho statement made by the member for Grev and others that there were sufficicut men offering, and that tho Bi\\ wa.» not wanted. If the member for Grey had any experience of recruiting meetings, ho would not make any such wild statement. Ho (Mr lsitt) iad at times talked for an hour and got no recruits. The system of. recruiting meetings had practically broken down, and it was uot until tho shadow of this Bill arose that there was any revival of recruiting. If this Bill wero dropped, it, would bo like turning of! the'gas. Recruiting would drop twothirds in a week. The member for • Grey's reference to New Zealand being a food-producing country was, if he only kuew it, one of the strongest possibie pleas for conscription. It would enable the country to conserve labour to tho best advantage, and euablo industry to bo organised as never before. U' Vet Labour objected to conscription. Some Labour members said they wouid ;; not objoct to conscription if full pro--vision were made for their wives and

children. The member for Grey had- , stated outside the House that it' proper provision wore made for wives and cfiil- gp ! (Iron, thcro would bo sueli a- rush of ro--» cruits that ihe Department would ba unablo t-o clotho them. Was really anxious to limit tho suffering of*?", tho wives and children ? If it was, ;;" ."then it would bring in a law which;, would enable them to ueo pp a. supplypjy of 40,000 young single mon" before cafl-ii' i ing out married men. Possibly tlwr' war would be over, and the marriedO men would not bo wanted by thph4;, This was tho best way of prcventingTf .f married men suffering. ' Mr Webb: What aliout the parcnUPj A; Mr lsitt: That is si' very unfortunate. interjection. Provision is made an appeal, and if these men are neccs-: sarv they will ho exempted. That in-'f,, tcrjection is only a quibble, not a son. _ _ ' Mr Isitfc closed with a strong plea'|y'i" for provision being made for the genu-,-me conscientious objector to at least:, have alternative service. There xcetss'J 000 Quakers in New Zealand, and sibly 100 men wore affected. Ho • self could not understand, he said, tho mental attitude of iheso mon, but MSQ} knew they held their views genuinelv,^« and they should bo respected. Ho?' begged the Minister of Deferiec to moke'? .*/ this" concession to genuine cases. ' "THE TIME IS NOT YET.": Mr A. Hindmarsh said ho did not ject to conscription because thero might be a time when conscription would be , neccseary, but it was not yet. Tho' § State had a duty to tho individual, :.£| and tho House had been waiting in . vain for the Government to define thai obligation Men with heavy obligations were going to the' war and moie would bo compelled to go tho war in the future.* and no UffipTj vision was xnado to relieve them their financial obligations. Ho wouj&pg voto for conscription if it should - (Kifjf necessary—not for "this nuserablo|'is abortion of a Bill," but for a big enable not a limited few,' but many/ifco:,yf receive tho fruits of the country they, had saved. Tho Bill would not affect - J the course of the Avar. It was being passed to win the war, but out'j*V>l spleen—out of a desife to exercise ~,|i orco upon tho people. ? CONVINCED BY Mr H. G. Ell said ho would support

the principle of the Bill, but there were small detail alterations which he i would j / 11 ; like to see made in it. Ho would liko '•!*, to know, also, something about' the composition of the appeal boards. ■' It was idle to object to compulsion;'; ho ■ realised now that the country was in such a perilous position that wo . should leave no stone unturnedin'doing our duty. The first duty of a man was;to the State. In his public utterances ha had stated that he was opposed to compulsion for military service beyond New Zealand, but tho stato of things hud so changed that he was bow of a -v different opinion. Ho had been' told -i that he would never see the inside of j the House again of ho supported tho Bill, but he did not think ho ought to ~fJ consider that. (Hear, hear.) Nor did | he believe that it would be so. because \ p he believed that 80 per cent, of theworking men of the country would vofco^ 1 for the principle pf the Bill. Ho spoke of the duty of tho Stato to tho indt-'r, f, vidual, declaring that we should bfl&i ready to bear a much heavier burden | of taxation in order to do our duty the men who had made a great dealVL bigger sacrifice. Provision should be^ 1 ' made for the mrfrricd men who might* X bo callcd up under the Bill. » 11 MR McCOMUS'S AMENDMENT, ' n Mr J. McCombs said that Labour v »,* men could not support conscription to,, bring about, as was suggested, "a last' ' * ing peace." It was because tliey want- * | eel -"a lasting peace" that they, could' v f | not tolerate un impossible extension the principlo of militarism. Tho BlUj, was leading, without any doubt, permanent yeneral compulsion, but Mrjffe* Asquith haa said that this was a war Ut uestioy militarism. This Dominion $ had a right, as a free part of the EOr ">* pile, to say whether it wouid send aBJi " men to light or not, but if tho scrip tion-at-any-prifo'' party had their| r way we should never again have thajr*' rignt to say yea or nay. The Bill w«©' ' an attempt to put shackles on tSjS freest democracy an God's earth. was opposed to the Bill, and ho wtfjl quite sure that the majority of his roa- J stituonts would support him in his vieffj £ It was a mere "Irishism" to talk ol'* - voluntaryism under compulsion. Even', if men volunteered after the passage ori v the Bill it could not be said that tb«W-.< was no compulsion in force. Directly tho" 1 Bill was made law compulsion would be ~ in force in New Zealand. AYhen I .ae Defence Act was passed it was provided , r that no part of the Territorial Forco • • should be ordered for service beyond ,< New Zeaiand. Mr AJlen: Nor has any part of >' ' : Koen ordered, nor will it be so ordered. • " Mr McCombs denied that tliero w-u any real necessity for the Bill. il° • ; did not believe our soldiers at the f ront ; wanted to see conscription introduced. He moved as an amendment:— That the second reading of the Bill li? taken this day tiireo months. ANOTHER OPPONENT. Mr A. "Walker seconded the amend- , inent. and spoke in support of itsaid that he saw no reason whatever why the House should pass tbo Bill before it. He spoke also of conscription of wealth by taxation. OPPOSITION ANSWERED. Mr R. A. Wright opposed the amendment. and supported the Bill. -- e com men Jed the courage of the meinher for l.yttelton iu moving his amendmont. and was anxious to seo' . many members would vote for it- M

r - j-ied that there had been any breac'i -fnn Did t;it- Ircnch. who had held ,ho Germans tor one hundred days at Verc'uii. require so be driven into ui \-- n ; o-i-. cvil< alleged to be s.-o. .W with 'conscription had not ap : nM-w 1 in » ;u:o "\ whD , iin<l tnou Tj, ••c.-cni Ho repudiated t:ie s igJwCSTriat there were men on t. " Government. side of tne House who were .mi'Tr'Ptionists at, heart and wcv: shed the last drop ot .Heir brothcis' -Already tnree mom- ? of Parliament bad -one to ijo front, one was in camp, and anotl,inp was going into camp. U'st oid nor o-.,- out th« assertion made. In rudi--on a ..r.mber of memoes had sons ar. ii.p'fropt. and the Compulsion Bi„ h?ouW anplv coually to members of ,'ar-1-T.fjr' mid 'their son l - as tn otnep»cpl<v It was impossible to say So-it the men to be raised unaer iho Bsi! would not have an influence cn t,.c war. Tbev r-Wit bo of paramount importance in the last stages o. the war. Jlo admit ted the justice ol the pWi for Quakers, rind tnougiti ; beir e.i'e should be considered. MR PAYNE WAItXKD. i[ r j, Vigor Brown supported the Bill, ill thw early stages >n his speech Mr Payne made frequent interjections, which called down upon him tiic general warning of the Speaker that lie had Lircn making very disorderly interruptions. and it he continued them he >. tnc .SpcaKer) would be compelled to request lnni to leave the Chamber for the rest ol the sitting. 31 r Payne subsided, but liberally bespattered Mr Brown's remarks upon tne inadequacy of the pensions for men and widows with "Jlear, hears."

Mr Brown said ho would have liked to have seen the voluntary system continued, and he felt that if the Government had made more liberal allowances in the first place, this Bill would never have been necessary. However, it had become nccessary, and be was going to

support it., lie would, however, do everything possible to bccuro better treatment for the dependents of soldiers.

A SOLID SPEECH. Mr E. Newman .said ho did not be-

lieve that the men going to the war thought thev were receiving too little pay. He thought the country owed a very deep debt of gratitude to the Minister ot Defence lor his splendid service. Thcro must be criticism of faults occurring in such «i big enterprise. but when the war was over MiAllen's work would bo seen in the proper perspective, and assessed at its true value. He did not believe that tve were now out of the wood. After iircnty months of war England had adopted conscription. No one would ever know how many men had lost their lives because of tho "wait and see" policy in England. Ho did not bolievo in this policy. Not only the military ' forces, but the whole country should bo organised, and he hoped that this would be done in Now Zealand. He was afraid that the voluntary s3"stem would not work smoothly along" with the compulsory system, and he would adviso the Minister to announce that at the end of a month after tho Bill came into force no more volunteering would be permitted. Somo men would never do their duty until thoy were compollcd to do it. Dealing with exemptions. he said that so many of the best workers in the country districts had gone to the war that it would not ho nisc to go on depopulating the country districts very much more. He realised his responsibility very fully in voting for the Bill. He knew that there must be a great deal of hardship Buffered by many men, who would bo compelled to go to tho war, and lie hoped that everything possible would be done by the Government to relievo these hardships: Particularly ho suggested that relief might bo given to men who had advances from tho Government. It was absurd to talk about equality of sacrifice. This was not: attainable. He hoped, however, that war profits would bo more heavily taxed than they were now. No man should make any profit out of the war. . POSSIBLE DEFECTS.

Ill" T. A. H. Field said ho was ' it little afraid that tho Government scheme, as contained in tho Bill, having in it the elements of compulsion nnd voluntaryism, might be found to be defective because of that association. It might bo discovered that the Bill would shpir the d c f ects of both systems and the advantages of neither of them. He agreed that Quakers should be exempted. Mr P. C. Webb spoke again on the .. amendment. 1 ; PATRIOTISM FIRST. < Captain J. jR. Hine said he was sur--1 ' pnaed that any man should disagree with tho purport of'tho Bill before the \ House. Our situation was such that patriotism must come first. What was the patriotism of tho hon. members opposing tho Bill? Apparently it was „ u; gduciblo to pounds, shillings, nnd pwice. ' The sooner those men got rid « tho idea that men were holding back because the rewards were not enough 'bo. better. They were on the wroilg J ' V . He could not understand tho

1 ' objection to having military men on the. Appeal Board. It must not be assumed ' J»at directly a man put on khaki he became a? military despot. Our mili- , tary officers were all civilians in private , life, He did not think the Governr B " ou id have fixed the maximum at ?? jrears.- He would not suggest any 'h" ,® , t age, but he would suggest classes in the reserve, say from 45 ,F years tc> 50, and another class for men L " , "i' er 5° years of age. Nor did he think Government should stop at regismilitary duties alone: ... registered for civil duties v. "•. 2 believed there ought to a-re^tf ° f wealth ' bu <> he did not wern lisf? TCry B reat wa r profits in ra4c *° now 5 were made the Lite e A ofthowar - He hoped sion b ° without a wvi-

NO GENERAL EXEMPTION. ?!»/* ** i said ]iq was ono of ' whfch W bo°in n ' d i Cd t0 su PP° rt the Bill, wnic.li boro mdcnco of verv eareHl . consideration and thought. Conv-rC tion bristled with difficulties, and" tile tSTSW"-"- Prided ■ml remarkably well— S h 3 d Wed thev W»r. «H„ endtf Z «of rfl'",,? 0 ?'"" 6 «*• i clad He was tha.ponff^ 6 the Bill provided for " of the v °iuntarv sysaot'hn l ho ? e was th «t there might I W V - need fc ? eserci *> the power ~ P under the Bill He KZ lT<^° St i 0 t ho Minister that the M Set r 0f tho should be tEfli? 0 01,0 ° r twi> classes, for obligations s , in " lo , m ° n who had «£wonfd tn i %,! 10 P ed th® from P u tar -" Service Boards ® U,ta ry influence. He teonld tv-ih that any class or calling £'~'tibn ' All flaim general exemp-"«ndiviHn-!ii app , atl i ons slloulcl to made 5 V ' an -' should 00 granted or % wonU ", D) r|' ,t ' General exemptions At wreck tho scheme. J?\ Henare said that his people tsl fight bett^'f 1 ' 0 ? ■ fc tllcy would not tad f T be i D S conscripted. Much uav^ de °, r thc t » nostio " of V Ho wiJvli soldlr '' R were to receive. WIT* *i ° lis people cJicl Hionetai-y "nspcct of sfe * }>- lD deed, if members r>:Jto raisp tlio" ? ? g tbe Government ; i >';certnii i t cs of pay there would be ? reluctance on the part of tho fi °' " ecaus e they would sav tfS* E K anS - V T t0 mak * tlle P c °ple ot any account e cc had gone to the war. SSi55«, » mk tbat , thc tinwiJlins|p« of the few to so should be made

the reason for conscripting the others, ft was true that certain Maoris in the W.ukaro aiul in Taranaki still cherished a grievance on account of the confiscation of their lar.ds. He would surest that those lands not occupied by European? should he restored to the Natives. Another grievance of the Natives m his district was that while they sent their own sons to the war. they saw all around them numbers of Austrians. Ho would ask the Government to give this maticr consideration. Dr. Pomare had stated the case for the Maori people, but he would ask the Government to have regard to the faet that the Maori people were a small people; thai, there were few tit men left, and that there was danecr of them vanishing altogether. A MEN" DM EXT R EJJ\TT ED. A division was tuken on Mr McComb.vs amendment at 11.10 0.m.. the amendment bciiw defeated by 01 votes to 5. The division list wa.? as follows:— For the amendment ("it—Hindmar.-h, McCombs, Payne, Walker, and Webb. Against the amendment (o4)—Alien, Anderson, Anstey. Buddo, Buiek, f raigie. J. M. Dickson, J. S. Dickson. Ell. T. A. H. Field, W. If. Field, Forbes, Eraser, Glover, Guthrie. Harris, Herries, Herdman, Hunter, lline, Hornsby. Henare, Hudson. Isitt, .MacDonald. Malcolm, Mandcr, Mafsey, Myers, A. K. Newman. K. Ncwir.an, Xgata. Noswdrthy, Okey, Parata, Pearcc, Poland, Pomare. Poole. J?. Ilea ton Khodes, T. ... E bodes. Busfell, Sidcy, Smith. Statham, W. Stewart (Bay of Islands), Sykes. Talbot, Veitch, Wilford, Wilkinson. Willy, Wright, Young.

Pairs —For the amendment: Flctclic: and Thacker. Against the amendment : MeCalhun and Dickie.

Tho debate was adjourned on (ho motion of Mr T. W. Rhodes, anil the Ilouss rose at 11.DO p.m.

I PROPOSED AMENDMENTS. (srEciAi, to "xiik pji£?p.'') "WELLINGTON, May 31. Notiees of three proposed amoudments to the Bill to bo moved in Committee havo been circulated. Mr McCallum has given notice to moyo that the definition of "military age" shall be altered to mean "not less than 21 rears and less than oo years." The same member has given not.icc to move a new clause to provide that the Act shall remain in force only until forty days after the first meeting of Parliament following the end of the m-p^ont war. Mr Anderson intends to move that the exemption from the first division granted to married men married within the timo limit who have children by a previous marriage, shall also bo granted to those married within the same period who have two children by their present marriage. THE FARMERS' ATTITUDE. (srr.ciAT, to "the press.") DUNEJJIN, May 31. At the meeting of the Otago Pro- [ vincial Council of tho New Zealand Farmers' Union this afternoon, Mr A. I S. Orbcll introduced a remit: "That wo aro in favour of compulsory military service, and aro prepared to support the Government in any measure necessary to carry out tho principle. 5 ' Mr Orbell said that no doubt the Conscription Bill would ho carried. There was a natural aversion in a country like this to any sort of compulsion. but when an urgent call came its answer had to b e assured. Already one person in every 16 of New Zealand's population had volunteered, and gone to the front, and that was something for the country to be proud of; but they needed yet more men. Our existence depended on winning, and statesmen assured us that the only way to eet every man was to onforco compulsion. A delegate: Would it not he still easv to shirk oven under compulsion? If a district supplied its quota throughout without tHe measure having to be applied, then the shirker would still bo able to skulk at home. The motion was carried.