EVENING SITTING.

Press, Volume XLIV, Issue 6094, 9 November 1887, Page 5

EVENING SITTING.

The House met at 7.30 p.m. . VHK MIDLAND KAJLWAV. JH&jor gave potica of the following names for the Select Committee oil the Midland rail way:—Mr Allen, Sir J. Hall Sir G. Grey, Messrs Falton, Ensscll, faeddon, and Levesfcun, Sir J. Vogol, e » s » Hodgkineon, G. i\ Kichardson, E. .Kichardson, Pyke, and the mover.

THE FINANCIAL DEBATS. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply Sir J. Vogel said lie congratulated Major Atkinson on some features of his Financial Statement. E'rom a literary point of view he thought it was one of the best ever made. It was a clever Statement from en'intellectual point of view, though he could not Hay it was so from a moral point of view. Supposing the late Government had come down with a similar Budget and had shirked their duty by proposing to borrow a million more and vague retrenchment, they would have been condemned for such proposals. The promises with regard to retrenchment made in the Statement were little more than were made during the general elections, and Government had asked for unlimited powers. They asked to increase the property tax to exactly the same amount as the late Government proposed to do. He proposed to show to the House what a hollow sham most of Major Atkinson's retrenchment was. He went into detaijs of the savings proposed In the Financial Statement at some length, aud claimed that had the late Government been allowed to carry out their proposals, they would, taking half-year's vote against half-year's expenditure, have saved £0:5,000 up to 3Uth September last on the annual appropriations. Compared with Major Atkiuson's proposals, tiie late Government would have come put ±#7.000 better than the Premier could show, with all his economies thrown in. lie complained that Major Atkinson had not treated the House fairly by the way in which he had prepared theStatement, as it was of a misleading character. Ho went into the position of the Sinking Fund at some length, and said he hoped Major Atkinson would understand the position of that fund after hi 3 explanation. With respect tc the proposals made for reduciug the Governor's salary, he did not set much store by the statement made that by reducing the Governor's salary they would not get a first-class Governor. He would tell Major Atkinson, however, that the proposals he made in this direction would not be a saving. He pointed oat (hat in cases where the Governor was asked to visit several pares pf the colony if this reduction were made, he would certainly reply to invitations of this kind that he should pay such visits if votes were passed by the House for these purposes. As to the reductions in Ministerial salaries, he thought they were excessive. He read an extract from one of Major Atkinson's speeches in Mansard, in which the Premier stated he had an utter contempt for reducing Ministerial salaries when proposed by Sir George Grey, He (Sir J. Vogel) admitted that; Major 'Atkinson was actuated by a desire for retrenchment, but he considered the reductions he proposed in this direction were altogether out pf proportion to other branches of the public service. He j also disagreed with the proposal to reduce j the number of Ministers. With respect to the proposals to sell the Ministerial residences, he was not aware how many of them were to be sold, but his idea would be to dispose of them all, and if he had remained in office he should have carried out that intention. They were all wooden buildings and expensive to keep up. As to the honorarium question, he believed that the majority ol members had expressed themselves favorable to a reduction, but he thought it should not extend beyond this Parliament. Looking at the near future, and at the conspiracy against democracy that was setting in, be should support the system of payment of members, and in consequence of that the reduction of the honorarium should only be for three years longer. He voted against the reduction of members last year, as he thought such a large change-' should not be made without the consent of the people, but he could not be blind to the fact that the country had desired recently that the number of members should be. | reduced, and that the districts should be s enlarged. He should, therefore, not oppose the Bill for the reduction of members, i seeing the opinion of the people had been taken on it. He should, however, support the proposal that those who obtained a.; majority of votes should be the elected of.: the people. Referring to travelling allowances, he agreed with the Premier that a very large 9av- ] ing might be made in that direcv tion, and the late Government had j made considerable sayings in it. As to j the repeal of the Crow» and Native Lauds j Rating Act, he quite admitted that no' member from Otago o* Canterbury would oppose that. It would operate injuriously; in other parts of the colony. He criticised' at some length the proposals respecting subsidies to local bodies, and he contended that those proposals would throw on those bodies a quarter pf a million of taxation, which they were not at present bearing. They were told that £60,000 a year was to ba saved in the Education vote, and opinions differed very much as to what would be the effect of raising the school age to sixyears. It would be very difficult to judge of the age of children between six aud seven years; they were told, however, that country schools were not to suffer by this proposal, and it was difficult to see how £60,0(X) could be saved by this item, as proposed in the Statement. If the Government made those savings without the House being consulted, they wpuld not be true to their election pledges, because there was no question more threshed out during the election than the education question, and they relused to state in what direction those savings would be made. He referred to the refusal of the Premier the other night to indicate the nature of the savings he proposed, but he now stated that if he (the Premier) adhered to that decision he very much doubted whether he would be allowed to remain on the Government benches, The Treasurer asked, in |act, for an imprest supply for the whole year. The thing was monstrous, and he would tell the hon. gentleman at once, if he was going to remain on the Treasury benches ne must give up the idea that he was going to get the unlimited power that he asked for. As regards the savings on railways, he said if non-political boards were introduced, the expenditure would not be reduced. The non-politicnl boards were not popular in Victoria with the great mass of people, and would not he popular here. Another reason which insidcedhim to think there was no real retrenchment in Major Atkinson's proposals was the paragraph which proposed to put the Civil Service under the control of a Board irrespective of Government interference. Government, in his opinion, had no defined idea of what they proposed to do. He contended that the whole purpose of the Budget was to get them into the way of living on borrowed money, aud he asked any reasonable person if auy amount of retrenchment would meet the necessities of the conntry unless the Customs revenue were increased. The Customs revenue at' present was lower per head than it had been for many years. He would tell the property tax payers that whenever the time came for increasing taxation and the Customs revenue was not increased, it was simply because a weak Government was afraid to bring the question before the House. He was not dealing with frectrade or protection, but this v.as a question that concerned all alike, viz. to raise the Customs revenue because the revenue of the colony was no*aufficient to meet the expenditure. He asserted now that if there had been the smallest prospect of dealing with this question the late Government would not have resigned, but they resigned as they thought that was the quickest way of getting the question dealt with. As to the proposed borrowing, he felt perfectly shocked that the Premier had expressed adoubt about allocatina theNorth Island Trunk Loan to the mirpose for which it w** mteaded. As to the proposal to borrow a million of money with a three years' guarantee, be warned the House it was a very dangerous thing to sive such a guarantee, and it would lead to the entire suspension of puplic works for at least a year before the time Snired. He was entirely favorable to -AiHmr the expenditure of borrowed moneyfbut twofgwat works which should tecaxried out were the OtagoCentral as and the closiug of the gap bttwleu WoidvUle aud Palmerston. I he tone had come, he thought, when they should rely more on private enterprise than borrowedtnoney, but he warned the TTn.Kse iacaiS* the He Soughtffi rnilli6n was necessary!

at present, but not more. He wou.d not taunt the Premier with the fall in Zealaud stock at present. The Financial Statement had no doubt caused a little alarm, not because of the retrenchment proposed, but owing to the fact that when a. new loan was proposed, the Agent General would have to make it known that there was a delimit last year. He believed that if they faced the market at the proper tinm they plight get a gooil price for the loan, but he was strongly against the proposal to borrow two millions. He thought a million and a half quite enough. He was altogether opposed ro making a nominated branch of theLe^islitturea more powerful branch, and it was totally opposed _to liberal principles, as it would absolutely give superior power oi government infctf the hands of a nominee body. He heardHhat the Government were now so much ashamed of this proposal that they now "said they had no intention of putting an absolute limit to the number at Leglshitive Councillors, but to bring the two Houses together in case of disagreement. With respect to emigration he fait convinced the House would listen with respectful attention to the proposals tit the Government, diid the pensioner settlements would have to he carefully considered. He would not discuss 'lie system of land settlement on that occasion. He considered the Native land question one of extreme importance, and there was no subject in which the House >shoukl be more anxious to help the Government than this one. He wished to say the present Government occupied a singularly weak position in the House. The idea or carrying on that Government was that the Premier was the lesser of two evils, and that if the House had not Major Atkinson it would have him (Sir J. Vogel). That was a curious position to take up. The country wanted just now a strong Government, and ho was of opinion tiiat until v stronger Government was formed than the present borrowing was to go on and retrenchment would not be made. He felt tbero was a great deal that he had left unsaid, but he had no doubt there would be another opportunity of speaking during the debate. Mr Jb'rsHEit said the speech just delivered was oue of the weakest ever delivered by Sir J. Vogel. He contended that the taxation proposed by Ministers was such as he hoped would secure a reversal of the ! policy of the late Government, Referring !to the savings promised by the late Government, he would reiiiiud the Hou.be that those savings were a little late iv the day after their three years of office. Why, the late Government had increased the expendltuie of the country by £100,000 a year. -He said the present Government had conferred great beneilt on the community by • relieving their minds on the question of taxation. I Surely Sir Julius Vogel had occupied ofiice long enough in the colony to do it some good if it was ever in his power to do it any good, but he would noc be satisfied with the policy of any Government in which he was not included. Nothing but office would suit him. He would like to ask how Sir J. Vogel had saved the colony three-quarters of a million of taxation during three years. Why that lion, gentleman had tried on several occasions to impose severe taxation on the people, but he was prevented by the Oppositiouf iom dointc so. He pointedoutthatthelate Government were the means of incurring a most unjustifiable expenditure of £30,000. by causing a second session at a time when some Of their members were convinced that they could not come back to the House in a majority. He admitted that the reductions in the Ministerial salaries were excessive, but the reason why they were excessive was because the Ministry were actuated by an honest desire to effect retrenchment. A.s to Sir J. Vogel's remarks aboutdemocmcybeingindangerif members were not paid, he would ask whether the hon. gentleman had said anything about the interests of the democracy wbeu he sought the suffrages of the Falmouth electors? Where was democracy then? If it were true, as stated by Sir J. Vogel, that his Government had made large reductions in travelling expenses, he should like to ask what they could have been before? They now stood at £5700, He defended the proposals of the Government on education, and contended that \ the House had already full opportunity of expressing its opinion on it by the Act of 1877. He undertook to say that it would be found that the amount proposed to be taken from the education vote would not weaken the system at all, but rather strengthen it, as there was growing up a large amount of discontent at the expense incurred under this head. j As to the hon. gentleman's remarks about ! the details of savings, he wished to state that when the time came Government would take the opportunity of explaining r those. details. Referring to Sir .1. Vogel's statement about the Hou6e having control of the public purse, he ; woula like to ask how he reconciled this statement with the action of his own Government last year in expending £GO,OuO of unauthorised expenditure on village settlements ( He (Mr Fisher) was as much against borrowing as any man, but he felt convinced that it was impossible for the Government to carry on at present with- - out a further loan, and it was necessary to save the credit of the colony. Whether the Government were weak or not, he was certain they were strong in the country. ,He contended that there never was such a : time before when individual differences should be sunk in order that the uouutrv might be brought out of the condition into which itiiad drifted of late years. MroBALLAKrcE said Mr Fisher had just posed as a radical member of the Cabinet, and had stated that the Government had touched the property classes through the property tax. As their sympathies were in that .direction, he fully expected that every member of the Government would come out in the same manner, and that tLey would prove a full-fledged democratic Ministry. He contended that Mr Fisher had not replied to the speech of the late Treasurer, and he combutted the statement made that the Government did not intend to touch the wages of the working men. He gave a distinct denial to the assertion that Sir R. Stout had ever stated that he expected his Ministry would come back in a minority. He condemned the reduction of Ministers' salaries, and said the reductions should only be temporary, aud not of such a sweeping character. With respect to Mr Fisher's advocacy of a reduction in the number of members, he pointed out that his views did not agree with those of the Premier, as that hon. gentleman in 1681 deliberately increased the number from eighty-six to ninety-five. However, if reports were correct, the Premier intended to reverse much of what he had previously done, as he intended supporting the repeal of the Triennial Parliament Bill, and other Liberal measures which he had been instrumental in passing. He referred at some length to the education question, aud said the Government proposals were most illiberal in character. The retrenchment question to his mind was a great question of policy, and the House was entitled to full particulars of i the savings. If any subject was_ more freely discussed during the elections it was. that of education, aud an opinion was unmistakably expressed that primary education should not be interfered with. He defended the village settlement scheme, and said there had never Deen more paiustaking with any scheme than there had been to give the fullest information to the House. Not one single penny bad been spent beyond the vote of the House, and he maintained there was nothing constitutionally wrong because the House had received ail possible information on the matter. With respect to railway boards, he said it was not a fact that those boards in Victoria had been an unqualified success, and he was not at all sure that an expert on rail*ay boards would escape the censure which Ministers received. He thought the board would not work at all, and there was no occasion to go to other countries to import men for this office. He asserted that Sir J. Vogel's remarks as to a new loan were misunderstood. That hon. gentleman had given it as his opinion that a million and a half was necessary for present requirements, being half a million more than was wanted for the North Island Railway. He defended his administration of the Xative Department, and referred to yhe position of the Land Fund at some length. As to paymeut of members be maintained that the present honorarium was not too ?arge. He Ma* also opposed to the reduction in tba Governor's salary, and he expressed the opinion of many people when he said that the Bill to give effect to this reduction would not be assented to at Home. He thought the retrenchment proposed by Ministers in many instauces was in a wrongdirection. Mr Peabso.v moved the adjournment of the debate to next sitting day Agreed to. S J The House rose at 12.22 a.m.