THE FINANCIAL DEBATE.

Press, Volume XVII, Issue 2263, 25 July 1870, Page 2

THE FINANCIAL DEBATE.

We take the following report from " Hansard" of July 14 :—

Mr Steyens—As I understand that there is not at pressent any amendment before the committee, I propose to offer a few observations on the proposals which have been laid before us ; and I may say that of all the financial statements that I have heard, and of all the discussions which have taken place in this House since I have had a seat in it, none have been taken under such favorable conditions for financial reform as the one now placed before the country. In former years we have been beset by troubles and difficulties of every possible kind, and surrounded by wars and rumours of wars, with a very small modicum of hope ; but this year I feel a hope and confidence which I never before experienced in undertaking tho consideration of Ministerial finance. Before going into the general proposals, I may be permitted to make one or two remarks on some other incidental points ; and, in the first place, I beg to tender my thanks to. the Colonial Treasurer for the extraordinary improvement he has effected in the manner in which the accounts are prepared and elaborated. The accounts are now exceeding simple, and I for one am grat-ful to the hon. gentleman for that improvement. I wish to call the hon member's attention to the floating debt, not because it has not been already referred to very extensively by those hon members who have spoken, but because 1 believe it would be a far better arrangement if the floating debt were funded, now that the hon member is about to undertake larger financial operations. I fail to see any possible advantage that can result from keeping things open in this manner. The hon gentleman has told us that the floating debt will occasion no immediate pressure. I do not wish to say that it will cause an immediate pressure, but I believe that the amount should be funded, and should be kept before the eyes of the country as being part of the permanent debt. I do not be.ieve in leaving any such matters comparatively hidden in the maze of finance; and I want to see this amount funded, so that we can understand in future that the permanent debt is so much. The Colonial Treasurer tells us that the sum exercises no immediate pressure, and contemplates renewals ; and I confess that, in the midst of all our difficulties, it is no small gratification to mc to discover that we are not without our Micawber. We all remember the manner in which Mr Micawber, when he settled a bill by giving his acceptance for the amount, is represented as exclaiming, " Thank God ! That's settled." I wish next to refer to the £60,000 overdraft, and I do so, though I know it will be to some extent repetition, because I wish to know whether, by-and-by, in estimating the financial condition of the country, 1 should include that sum in the liabilities. As I understand, the hon gentleman, the Colonial Treasurer, obtained from the House last session power to issue certain treasury bills, and that, although he did not absolutely include the amount in the liabilities and engagements, he recognised that there was an amount outstanding in the shape of this overdraft, against the balance of these treasury bills inter alia. I understand that the hon gentleman now says, in his statement, " I had, on the 31st March last, a sufficient balance to pay this overdraft; but, for certain treasury purposes, I considered it better finance to leave the amounc unpaid. No doubt it may be very convenient so to do, so long as the hon. gentleman has in the chest a sum representing the amount of the overdraft, and I understood that this was his view of the matter, and that he had such a sum. But, on looking through the figures given in the statement, I find that he appears to have estimated the whole of his liabilities and engagements to the 30th June, and to have placed against their total the whole of his revenue to the 30th June ; and that he has altogether left out this £60,000 overdraft. I should like to know from the hon gentleman whether I am wrong, as a matter of fact, in considering that this £60,000 should be added to the funded debt of the colony ? I entirely agree with the proposal of tbe hon gentleman to continue the special fund. I understand that he proposes not only to keep the special fund separate, as a matter of account, but also to cause to be kept a separate banking account to represent that fund, and I think that the change will be an exceedingly useful and beneficial one. Having thus briefly referred to the topics of the past as they appear in the statement, I will proceed to refer to the Ministerial pro-

posalaas to the future. I will deal first, with the points which may bo said to be not embodied in the great scheme of tho Government, and I will deal with them in what appears to mo to be the most convenient ordtr. First, there is the proposed capitation allowance, in lieu of that extraordinary system which has existed since 18G7, by which the Provincial Governments have taken their subsidy out of the consolidated revenue, on the principle based upon the increasing necessities of tho Colonial Government; that is to say, for every pound required by the Colonial Government, the Provincial Governments have received a pound for themselves, thereby absolutely making tho financial misfortunes of the colony doable themselves. I congratulato tho Government upon having at last come to the conclusion that such an abominable state of things shall be terminated. To mc that conclusion is particularly gratifying, because, for some years past, I have endeavored, with somo enro and some energy, to bring about a reform in the direction now proposed to be taken. But I want to know how the Government propose to settle the payments to be made, under this capitation allowance, to the different sections of the country— how they mean to fix the number upon which to pay, in each case ? I see that by Clause 8 of the Bill on the subject, that it is proposed to settle the numbers, a. for each year, by a resolution of both Houses. I have considerable doubt whether simply making the numbers subject of debate f.-om time to time would be satisfactory ; and I am inclined to think that, as suggested by the hon i member for Westland North, it would be I better to take an annual census, which I believe would cost £7000 or £8000 a year. j I concur generally in the proposal a* to endowment of road districts ; but I think that Bottlers in those districts will be likely to conclude that what is now suggested as justice to them comes late and is insufficient. The £50,000 will have to be distributed over the whole of the country — for the districts unrated at present will be likely to rate themselves under this proposal; and I think the settlers will very probably conclude that such a distribution is to be regarded rather as a small present of " sweetmeats," than as doing justice, or as likely to secure the popularity of the proposal. I would suggest to the Government to consider whether they will not propose—either during this session or in the next —instead of the plan now before us, to make loans to certain Road Boards that may require them, upon security of the annual amount of rates raised in them, sufficient margin to seoure safety being allowed in each case. I do not hesitate so say that the £50,000 will make co small a contribution to the respective districts that they cannot, with their present inadequate resources ra : se rates sufficient to enable them to undertake even small drainage works in swamps and other paces difficult to be dealt with, whereas the expenditure of say £500, if it could be secured, would often enable Boards to complete works necessary for promoting the development and the fertility of their respective districts. I now come to the proposal as to the expenditure, during five years, of £790,000 in defensive purposes ia the Northern Island. I agree with the hon member for Mongonui in condemning that proposal. I object altogether, however permanent the plan may be, to granting five years' defencj estimates j and if no others should agree with us, I am prepared to join the hon member for Mongonui in resisting any attempt on tho part of the Government to obtain such a vote. I agree with the Government iv believing that permanent defence estimates are necessary ; but I never will consent to put out of the control of the House so great a power, which I believe the House ought to exercise year by year. Why is such a proposal made ? What security is there in it ? Are the members of this House afraid that their successors—or the people who wid elect those successors —are not to be trusted to make proper provision for defence purposes ? Has it ever been the fault of the people or of this House that proper provision has not been made ? I deny that it has. I do not want to rake up the past, but I say for myself—and I am sure I may say it for other members of this House—that if, in 1866 or 1867, we had been told that there was either imminent or probable danger of outrage by any section of natives, we would have voted for granting any sum of money for defence which could in reason have been asked for. I want to know how the Grovernment propose to get the £790,000 —how they conceive it possible to get such a sum under the Consolidated Loan Application Act That point has not before been referred to by any hon member, but it is an exceedingly important point. Last year tho Colonial Treasurer brought forward and made revenue about £58,739, aa appeared from the accounts, out of that sum of £1,114,000 which was raised for purposes specified in the schedule to The Public Debts Act, 18S7. I understood, and I believe it was the und.ritanding on all sides of the House, that that source of raising money was then exhausted ; and I want to know now how it is possible, without doing something wrong, to g n t £790,000 more from that exhausted source. Last year, notwithstanding the operation of whioh I have spoken, we were invited to pass, and did pass, a Loan - Application Act for an amount of £73,000, mostly for engagements of the Province of Wellington, but partly for Southland ; and now we are asked to use the powers of this Act for the raising of £790,000 more. I should like to know what debentures are to be left out in the cold ? What unconverted debentures are not to be paid out of this consolidated lo_n of seven millions? The matter is easy of explanation, no doubt, but I trust the hon gentleman will tell us plainly from what source and how the Government propose to get this £790,000. I do not want to oppose the Government on the point. A simple matter of fact is involved, aod I hope that, if necessary, the committee will insist upon an explanation being given. I will only say, that if the Government do propose to leave any unconverted debentures out of the operation of the Act, I think it will be a very dangerous proceeding, and that such is shown to be the fact by the correspondence of the Commissioners in regard to the proposal for a further loan. I will now refer to the proposed £1,200.000 expenditure composed of £400,000 for a trunk road in the North Inland, £400,000 for railways in the Middle Island, £200,000 for creating a landed estate in the North Island, and £200,000 for water supply on the gold fields. I altogether fail to understand upon what principle it is proposed to give pound for pound to each island. Is £400,000 to be given to the Middle Island simply because itis necessary to spend£_oo,ooo in the Northern Island ? I suppose that is so—the Middle Island is dismissed with a

graceful wave of the hand, and " A* tk North needs £100,000, you must take T equal amount." Tho vory fact of a Pou ,.*? for pound basis imparts nn air of sii«ii.rj ori '. the proposal. In regard to tie pro'po.aU«! to railways, there is one point that etrikcs'rn as being very remarkable. In eUu-o 7 of"™ 0 Public Works and Immigration UiU I ZZ these wor.la : —

"In each provinco tho Governor ia aiH j, riaed to expend upon tho construction or o account of railways, in such province, in iJJ year, euch a proportion of the said' sums «< the capitation moneys alloted in such year \ the province, under the provisions contained in the Payment to Provinces Act, 1870 boal to tho sum of such capitation moneys, allottri in such year to all the provinces in the iliddh Is'and."

It appears to mc, from theso word., t| lat the proposal ia, to make the expondituro'up on railways in the Middle Island upon the basis of one year's revenue—that is to say, that if there is a certain amount of revenue comic? to a Middle Island province in one year, that is to be taken as tho basis for railway expon diture, although there may bo a great chart*. in the very next year, and in tho course of a few years tho relative position of the province may be altogether changed. lam not bum that lam right in my view of this compli, cated provision, and therefore I want to liav o the matter explained. I intend to oppose tho proposition to spend £200,000 in acquiring land from the natives—not because I grudgo the money to tho North, nor because lam influenced by anything that can he called Middle Island feeling. If I thought that by carrying out tho proposal any danger would be averted or any good done, the oroposai should have my support. I have never joined in any cry as to the North sacrificing the interests of the Middle Island. I havo never grudged any effort, whether mado through a money payment or othorwi.a for the safety of our fellow-countrymen in the North Island, and I never will \ SIK \ myself to anything dictated by what I consider to be morel y Middle Island feeling. But I believe that the present proposal is fraught with danger—t hat it can only result in dissatisfaction amongst the natives and possibly in inoreased danger to tho' peace of the Northern Island. I know that the opinion is shared by members of this House, whose views of Northern matter, aro of more value than mine can bo. I believe that the proposal is a mistake from beginning to end, and therefore I shall oppoeo it in every possible way. It appears to mc to ba essentially a bad proposal, because it is based upon the making of a profii out of tho natives. Why should it be sought to make a profit out of natives rather than out of Europeans ? Why not go to some provinco that has not a land fund, and try to buy land from Europoan settlers ? Why not go to Nelson— where, I believe, they would be very glad to have a land fund—and to make a profit by buying land from the owners of some of the large estates there, and selling it again to ! the small farmer class ? There would bo just aa much reason for that course as there is for the course now proposed, and there would be no risk. I shall support tho proposal to spend £200,000 in goldfields water supply. From personal inquiry, and from a great deal of correspondence with pereon. in different parts, I am satieGed that such on expenditure would be exceedingly remunerative, would also be most satisfactory to persons in various localities, and would bo productive of benefit in many ways. I think that the proposed amount is insufficient, for the works required are of very great magnitude, and I suggest to the Government that they should keep the mattor before thorn, with a view to proposing an iucreaso in a future year. I believe that tho £200,000 if properly spent will, in a short time, double itself by the revenue which it will yield. On the West Coast of tho Middle Island alono there are undoubtedly large quantities of gold which it ia impossible to touch until water ia brought upon the ground. Water ia now unattainable at almost any coat, at least I know such was the case when I was last on tho West Coast, fourteen months ago. At that time the cry for water was to be heard from every miner, and the proposed expenditure will, I am sure, be in evory way beneficial, I have now dealt with what called the minor topics contained in the financial statement. I will now proceed to consider tho proposals of the Grovernment in regard to immigration. It appears to mc, sir, that it there ia one question before the country that :is worthy of deep and earnest consideration |it is that of importing population into tho I country, to increase our moans of paying our debts, and to increase our power of carrying on colonizing operations. For my part I can say that during the last twelve months, ot* even for a considerably louger period, I havo lost no opportunity of preaching tho advantages of immigration to every farmer, to every capitalist, and to every labourer in tlio country that I have met. But, sir, win c i am an advocate for immigration, I wish to keep clearly in mind what are tho true a?" legitimate objects of immigration. I wwa to clear my own mind on that pom-, and to keep it in view in tho consideration of the whole of the Ministerial proposals. I understand that there a & generally accepted view that immigratioa is desirable in this country for tho »ie of increasing tbe revenue of the country, and I also see that it may bo considered _«-««■ able to induce immigration to enable you to carry on some extent of public works, iteto is another object, and that is to iucreaso power of making the country productive J improving the state of the labor joamu Now, Si?, I am not one of tho.o whei wish W conceal this point in the slightest degree m considering the question of immigration ; # i « not wish to say that there is anything in .. J mind that is at all equal ia importance to one question of labor. I know the cry is and has been raised against immigration in different parts of tbe country, and l -ay, notwithstanding that it may b- raw* again and again, as it will be from »■«• to time, that I will not be deterred g any consideration of that kind. _a ■ paramount and plain coasideration, ' my mind, in favor of •mmigajw* is the improvement of the labour market, the enabling the capitalist of to work at a profit instead of at a loss, « instead of men being afraid o go »» undertakings because there is no ft reasonable price, to bring »bout a condauon m which men can safely spend their rely upon getting it back with a,«•»_*J rate of profit attached to it. when Ji my hon friend the member f^fa deploring the state of the corn ™***^ blo telling the committee that is *** %«** f a that corn is at so low a price, and impossible for farmers to grow it,*. • help saying that thero are two ways of nu_w»

~~~~~-m> One way is to get people to pay 8 P r Lm nrices and the other to decrease I tell my hon friend i ♦ the whole pith of the case is nothing than this,— that unless you can get an m °!%\ market for your corn, you may oU r„n protective duties, and stimulate the P ■ a in any artificial manner you like, but SJSf production of grain will be in excess of IZ demand, It is open to you to lessen the 1 , «fproduction by immigration. There is Mhpr consideration which I wish to impress & ln nthl committee, and that is in regard to 55, manner in which money is invested in this i tr There are, to toy own knowledge, of from £10,000 to £50,000 belonging Smi-ate individuals who are colonists in;*ted"in o mortgages and shares, while there I "immense tracts of valuable land over lw_h sheep are running, lying, I might say, • Z*t wholly unproductive. That is a most *5 But, sir what is tConof it? It "not because there is Z caoital, but no man dare take money and ern'nd it on any operations whatsoever of an •mnrovine character, because he is afraid of ffpr eof labor. And the same condition t »l.in_s is to be observed also xn regard to lit the hon member for Heathcote alluded t« when ho said that we want a diversity of Industries. Sir, who dare go into manu- / t..-™ in New Zealand at the present S of labor? There is not the slightest Expect of a profit in the present state It the labor market, and I fail to see anything which can induce a man to believe that be would be protected against the fluouations in the produce market, and the other drawbacks and risks which are connected with „H branches of industry. Therefore, sir, I declare unhesitatingly that I am in favor of immigration to almost an unlimited extent. The one limit I would put upon it is the limit which the labor market requires, while at the game time enabling the people to live in comfort and with a prospect of improving their condition, and protecting them from that poverty and suffering which is sometimes obaerved in older countries. Now, sir, I wish to give my opinion as to how the money proposed to be raised for purposes of immigration should be administered. There is in the proposals of the Government this feature— they propose to borrow £1 500 000 in the Immigration and Public Works' Loan Bill, but in the other Bill there is only a million of money, and half a million contemplated for what are called pecuniary liabilities. I would like to have that explained. I suppose the Government think they will have this other half-million as an optional expenditure. That is to say, if they choose, they can spend in the management of immigration half a million by subsidies, but they do not think it desirable to bind themselves to do that in preference to raising and spending the other half-million. I am eorry the hon member for Timaru is not in his place, because I wished to refer to a view expressed by him as to how immigration should be conducted. He »poke the other night about free grants of land as a means of immigration. Sir, I wish to express my most unqualified disapproval of anything of tbe kind. I believe the way to carry on immigration is to give people regular employment at a fair rate of wages — at a rate that will enable them to live through the ■whole of the year comfortably, and save some money j and to give them abundant facilities for ohoosing Crown lands at a reasonable rate. I may say, from my own experience, which among the farming class is very extensive, that there is no man who does so well in settling in the country as the man who has got a little money and buys his own land. I believe that the system of free grants of land, unless the settler is supported by somo private capital, will lead to a state of pauperism which is quite frightful to contemplate, and I further disagree with my hon friend in thinking that it will be desirable for the colony to resume thoee large private estates of which he spoke. It is far better to trust to a moderate rate of wages, which would enable the lands to be cultivated arid improved, and to leave it to time to settle all the other difficulties in the way, than it is for the Crown to reacquire the lands and sell them again. I believe, if yon adopt a proper and systematic course of immigration, you will find that your proprietors, especially those great proprietors in Otago, Southland, Canterbury, Marlborough, and some of the Northern provinces, will, if they cannot work their land themselves, cheerfully accept the circumstances which had given the land an increased value, and sell to farmers. Now, sir, as to the method of carrying on immigration. In the Government proposals it ia true that there is an intention manifested to exercise colonial control. I entirely agree with colonial control, but I say it ought altogether to be colonial. It appears to mc that if you adopt the plan of charging this money provincially, even to the extent of half, as proposed by the Government, you will commit two very great errors. By charging it in that way you will give a certain right of interference to the local powers, which right I say Bbould not be in any part of the country. It should be conducted on a principle which recognises that colonial spirit in its entirety, but not simply as regards the mere question of whether there is a declared local preparedness or not. I say that this House will always be best able to judge of that local preparedness, because it will be altogether removed from any probability of local pressure. There is another great evil in connection with charging provincially, which I wish to point out. You are going to say to a province, " If you choose to take immigrants we will get them and convey them to your ports," and at the same time you are, by a system of railways and publio works, going to give those immigrants facilities for rnnning from one province to another, and with their capitation allowance attached to them. You may laud an immigrant in Dunedin, and he hears that there is a great deal of work in Christchurch, and there is every facility for him to go to that province and become a resident there. So that unless some arrangements were made to rectify the error, his capitation grant would belong to a province which did not pay for his importation. In addition to the administration being interfered with by local agitation, there is this consideration. If you deal with ship brokers and persons with whom you will contract to procure immigrants, *>ou will be able, by doing it on one plan, and in a continuous stream, to do it very much cheaper. That I think is very evidently the case. I at one time was of opinion that it would be desirable to have a non-political board, but I now believe it would be an entire mistake. I believe it will be found better to employ Commissioners for the puapose of collecting the information that would be neceaaary, and doing the other business; but I would prefer that a Minister should be appointed for the chief a___inistr_tion, whom the

House could hold responsible. If that were done there would be none of those complications and feelings of insecurity on the part of the public which might be occasioned by the establishment of a non-political board. But, sir, I believe, if we are going into public" works and immigration, the importation of rolling stock, and further financial arrangements, the only satisfactory way in which we can carry them out successfully, is by appointing some able and responsible person to represent us in London. I believe that it is

high time that the colony provided itself with an Agent-General in England, and I fail to see why there Bhould be so much delay in doing what appears to mc to be

indispensably necessary. We have a number of agents of all kinks in dif-

ferent localities, but we have not provided ourselves with the machinery which is really required ; and I believe we shall find that we cannot carry on any operations connected with the English market, either monetary or otherwise, unless you undertake it in that way. I have taken grpat pains to ascertain which is the best method of procuring suitab'e immigrants. I have conversed with men who have been tolerably successful in the colony, who carre out here with nothing, and who have made some thousands of pounds in something like ten years, and who have returned to England. Now I consulted one person some six months ago, upon whose judgment I could thoroughly rely. 1 asked him what probability there was of his being able to induce people of his own class to come out to the colony, and he said, "If 1 had had power, I could have brought out from fifty to seventy persons from my own neighborhood." That was in the west country. Therefore, I believe the proper immigration agent is a successful colonist. He can go home and say, " There is no mistake about this, I have got my money ia the bank and receive my remittances. I have only come home for the good of my health, or pleasure, and if you go out willi mc you will have just a 9 good a chance as I had." I speak from my personal knowledge, for I lived for a considerable time in a country district before I came to New Zealand, and I say that if you apply to a landed proprietor or clergyman, or to any person who might be regarded as an authority in a country place, they will not send you out the claes of immigrants that you require. They will not send you their best men, they will send you the refuse of tho population if they send you anything. If you go in upon a small, miserable scale, and unless you adopt a comprehensive system, your attempt will prove a failure. I also think it is a great mistake to confine your colonization to any particular race which may inhabit the British Isles. I fail to see why Germans should not be introduced. The German is one of the best men you could select for a colonist. He is economical ; he is industrious; he works from daylight to dark, and he has no idea of extravagance in his mind as a rule. I have often wondered why German immigration was never undertaken, considering that it has been hinted at and actually proposed. In passing I may say that there was a golden opportunity lost at the end of the late Prussian and Austrian war. If an effort had been made by this colony at that time to induce disaffected persons who had influence in their owu country, which was annexed by the result of the war to the Prussian Government, I believe you would have got out an immense number of the very best men. I believe it is not yet too late to obtain a large portion of immigrants from that part of Europe. I may state that I was recently consulting an era?-, grant from Frankfort, who told mc, in the bitterness of his heart, that the people there would never submit to the ohange of nationa-

lity if they could help it. I have said enough perhaps on the subject of immigration, and I will now Bpeak as to publio works. I will say that, as regards public works, I felt persuaded that they were inevitable when I made a " proposition to the House respecting the change in the system of Provincial Government. I have not lost sight of this. I had hopes that my view would prevail in the country, and that it wonld simultaneoutly undertake a system of immigration upon the colonial plan in connection to some extent with publio works. I hoped to see the day when we should have a Minister of Public Works and Land, and that we should work from the centre, and employ a competent staff of engineers to conduct our public works. If there should be a difference between the two islands in regard to geographical features or political differences, we could have had a Minister for each island, who should reside on the spot, and be responsible for the j works. But, sir, in all human affairs I find it better that if you cannot succeed in having your own way it is well to take the next best thing to il. And I am not at all indisposed to consider the scheme of publio works even as proposed. But hon. members will recognise the great point of difference— the great line drawn I think by the hon. member for Mongonui: Do you mean to make your works subsidiary to your immigration, or at all events your population ? That, I think, was the point of the hon. member. Mr Gi__i_s—-Yes. Mr Stevens—Well, I say make them subsidiary, and I hold that they should not be undertaken merely for the employment of immigrants, but for the use of the people in the country. Well, sir, we have large proposals which will fit all the ideas held by hon. members: to some even twenty millions sterling would be a mere nothing. As 1 understood the hon. member at the head of the Government, after spending ten millions sterling in ten years, not less than thirty millions sterling might be offered to the colony almost without asking for it. I do not think so. I do not think people are disposed to part with their money on the very slender security which my hon. friend may have to offer. But I say that there is something to be done in public works which tbe country demands. The questions are what will you do, and how much will you do? Do you"want to employ the large population you are going to introduce? A large population may increase the number of taxpapere, but I doubt if, by carrying on , public works, you will succeed in settling the i country. Now I want calmly to consider the subject, because there is an opportunity 1 whioh never occurred before. Let us conl sider whether this operation will settle the i country; whether it will be advisable for us t to adopt on a miniature scale the same plan I as adopted with respect to some of the great _ lines in the Western States of America. I ) do not think it will, and for these reasons, f There the main object seems to be this —if • I am. not quite right, some hon gentleman f can correct me—but my impression is from - reading and inquiry, that the necessity for i these great lines is caused by the immense

tracts of useless and uninhabitable land, intervening between areas of fertile country. Now I do not think, with the coast line that we have got, and the great comparative length of the proposed arterial railways, that these lines would lead to any good result for the colony, at least within a term of ten years. I doubt it greatly. There are metropolitan towns from each side of which these may be constructed by moderate degrees with a view to ultimately meeting. I am in favor of a uniform system —I do not mean a uniform gauge—and I believe it will bring about what is wanted by the counlry. But, sir, let us see to what extent you are to go about it. Let mc connect it with immigration. Immigration is a thing which should be conducted with regard to the labor market, but the whole thing depends upon the proportion of immigration you are going to introduco relatively to the public works you are going to undertake. I hope the Government will let us know this before their proposals are disposed of. Let us be informed what proportion the 15,000 immigrants, mentioned by the Premier as the probable annual number, bear to the amount of public works to be undertaken, because upon that hangs everything. If emigration is not in proper proportion to your public works, if your immigrants do not arrive at the suitable time, you will abstract labor from the market, you will make your employer worse off than he wa9 before, you will merely be raising the price of wages without doing the country any good. Therefore I think it desirable that the Government should give us the information in a cleur and distinct way. I am of opinion that it is desirable, in the formation of public works, that this idea of not taking from the labor market should be kept in view. The hon member for Timaru says, employ your people at times when their labor will not be required for the market. I do ask the Government if it is not improper and unsafe that these works should be carried on at a period of the year when the market requires laborers ? The hon member for Mongonui says that winter construction is an undesirable way of carrying on your works. I believe you will find you will be ri.her in the end by conducting your works upon a moderate scale and in a careful manner, and by keeping your people employed the whole year. I do ask the Government, before they go into this great undertaking, that they will bear in mind the consequences that may take place in all parts of the country. We have seen in many places, perhaps even in Zealand, poverty, famine, and misery where they should not be, simply because the people cannot forsee the effect of a large proportional Government expenditure. They see things going merrily on, all is fine weather, when suddenly down comes the Government expenditure, and what are they to do ? They cannot, from day to day, watch events. Property depreciates, and the effect is felt over all classes of the community, and that effect you cannot estimate. It is different where there are large populations, and in European countries where considerable wealth exists to sustain such fluctuations. But here in New Zealand, where you undertake a large expenditure extending over ten years, I say, unless it is administered with the utmost caution, nothing but poverty and misery will arise. I am not condemning the plan. I am not going to say that public works are not to be undertaken, and that tho country should be allowed to stand still. I say, let us do our best. Let us try as far as we can to apply the great engines of publio works and immig>ation to the good and improvement of the country. Let mo say that the safest way of carrying out large public workß is to adopt the plan of laying out what lines you want, and doing them by degrees, as communication is wanted —where you require them hastily I am not speaking of. The small umount proposed, £400,000, might be expended on the Middle Island by the Governments now in ex* istence, for immediate wants. There is plenty of work to be done to employ that amount of money. But in the larger undertakings it is better, I think, that the Government should not borrow, but give guarantees to private persons who may take the risks of the works paying. Those guarantees, if given to a moderate extent, will have the effect of inducing private individuals to embark in an enterprise that they could not otherwise attempt with safety, or with any hope of profit. Let works be undertaken that will be profitable, even to a small extent, and add to these something of your own by which the undertaking may be placed in a position to command confidence on the part of contractors. I am not in favor of borrowing immense sums of money to be expended on works with problematical returns. I hope I have made myself clear as to this point, I believe the proper course to be pursued in regard to public works ia to undertake them in moderation, and not to undertake them unless they prove remunerative, to Borne extent, however small, and where it is not sufficiently remunerative then add a reasonable amount as guarantee, such as we can affoad to pay. But let us see whether the Government scheme is of that kind that would be most useful as compared with what it is likely to entail upon us. Now j the cost of Government at present appears toj be this —civil list, £27,500; permanent; charges, less interest, £68,246; public domains, £2800 ; public departments, £43,583 ; law and justice, £51,174 ; postal, £126,024 ; customs, £49,342 ; native, £28,604; miscellaneous, £45,567 ; militia and volunteers, £28,844: making a total of £471,684. The present provincial expenditure is—administratsve, £19,693; legislation I omit, assuming it to be done gratuitously ; justice, £79,911 ; education, £32,805; charitable institutions, £57,647, harbors, £19,514: being a total of £209,570. These constitute the amount of your absolute necessities, but in this calculation I have not taken into account certain miscellaneous, and all waste lands, surveys, and goldfields expenditure. I estimate that the expenditure on the goldfields may be paid by the goldfields. Now, sir, what is the result of all this ? It is that about £680,000 is at present the cost of mere government. I ask attention of the House to this,—-that it is an expenditure you cannot avoid. It is now cut down to the lowest possible item, and we are told that the Provincial Governments cannot do more in the way of econo- , mising. Add to that £680,000 the interest on the existing loans and floating debt, ; £389,881. I next ask what is the cost of interest on the loan at the end of tbe ten years on this railway expenditure. I find it ': is £444,128; the interest on defence loan, [ £43,450; the interest on the overdraft of ' £60 000 will be about £3000 ; making a total of about £1,561,000. Well, against this we i may have additional population, which is, by

the hon member for Grey and Bell, put at 420,000 in ten years—say 450,000: it is now 250,000. What will be the additional cost of government for the increased population? We will say £300,000, which will make the cost of i government and interest alone about £1 900.000 I What have we got against that ? The Colonial Treasurer states that we have got the unsold lands, and railway revenue estimated at £250,000. That would leave, at the very lowest calculation, the annual charge at £1,500,000. This will be the sum the country will have to provide for annually at the end of the ten years. Let ub see what will be the position of the country eleven years after this time. You will have railways, you will have some unsold laud, and an increase of population, and an increase of liability to a total of | £1,500,000. There is this only element of certainty in the proposals, that you will have this enormous annual charge upon you. The former speakers have not summed up this matter ; that is, they have not placed at a single view that sum which we shall have to pay. That is the point which we have to consider. Is this committee prepared to undertake operations that will entail upon this colony an annual charge of one million and a half for taxation? If they answer in the affirmative there is then an end of the matter. We can proceed with the scheme in its entirety if desired, but I say that 1 am not prepared to undertake that responsibility. I am not prepared to go to such an extent as that, because I think we are not justified in doing more than the country can well afford, and I am not disposed to speculate in public affairs. What is then the other item the hon gentleman relies on besides railway revenue, unsold land, and increased population? Why he brings a thing before us that he would have us consider almost as a pleasure, something to be delighted with, namely, direct taxation. He will probably increase the stamp duties, and levy a tax on absentees—those people who enjoy so much and pay so little. I say that, under the present proposals as they stand, they will not pay much. The result will be that your expenditure will have the effect of increasing the value of their land, which they will sell off. There will be v.ry little absentee taxation. It is the permanent settlers who will have to pay ; the absentees will have taken their interests away. I should like to hear from the Government, and probably we shall hear, whether the estimates of railway returns given by the hon member for Grey and Bell are unsound or not. The hon member at the head of the Government said there was no reason why they Bhould be as low here as in Victoria. I want to know what, in the opinion of the Government, is the traffic that is likely to grow up. Do not let the committee imagine that was a trifling objection raised last night abont the coast traffic. If that coast traffic Bhould continue, you would have but little beyond passenger traffic to rely upon over your long arterial lines. You must not forget, in estimating your revenue from the increased population, that your increased population will not be as productive as that you have got now and whose expenditure is very large. We must not think that our revenue power will be so much, proportionally, as it is now. I have a word to say about the loan. The Government are in a better position than I am of knowing the prospect there iB of getting the loan—of raising the six millions or the greater portion of it. I am not going to set up my judgment against that of others as to the probability of the English capitalists giving the money. Should a panic arise in the money market, which occurs once in every few yoars in England, what steps would you take in getting the money ? How aro you going to get the money ? If you rely too much upon it you may place the colony in an unfortunate position. If you look forward to ten years and rely upon this loan, you may create some difficulty j and 6ven though you raise the whole of the loan at once you may lose a considerable amount ot interest by that process. In consi iering how the public works are to be carried on, bear also in mind what was said about guarantees, and of moderately undertaking works that will pay. I do cay that I feel very great alarm when I think that you may go on and exhaust the whole of your credit, and that there may at any time arise another native outbreak. Even the Defence Minister cannot tell us that he can rely on the defence estimate. How could he rely upon it for five years in matters of war ? No War Minister ever could do so. Supposing you have placed several millions of your loan on the market, and that you could not get more money, and there arose a native outbreak to put down, for which you required the expenditure of money, would not that be a great risk ? I object to exhausting the credit of the colony, to pledging yourselves to an expenditure of money for which you have not got a safe provision. I would urge the construction of public works within reasonable limits rather than run such a risk as that I have mentioned. I have one observation to make about the proposals of the Government in regard to the land. The hon member proposes to take two and a half millions of acres of land, and to pay for any work to that extent in land, and I presume that will be some of the best land. He proposes further to take three and a half millions of acres of land, which is to be a security for the railway undertaking. It has been very correctly stated that in some parts of the colony there must a very small amount of land. That is the case in the North Island, and therefore it would be taken from the Middle Island, where there is a large quantity of land. If you are going to give the contractors payment in land out of the two and a half millions of acres, they will do as contractors always do, —they will estimate a certain amount of discount in their tender for the work. If they think they will have to pay a land agent or anybody else 10 per cent, for taking the land orders off their hands, they will in their tender include the percentage. We propose to hang up the two and a half millions of acres, for immediately, when the contract is made, the land will be taken out of tbe operation of the waste land regulations. When you do that you will place your land in this position with regard to other land in the province—the contractors will probably undersell you when they get the Crown grants, and you will have large competing landholders, which would be a public inconvenience. There is another point to which I would ask the attention of hon members who come from the same part of the country as I do ; it is the three and a half millions of acres of land which is to form the security, and which is going to be mortgaged to the Colonial Government. The advance of the Colonial Government would be, I assume, based on the present rate of price, and if it should please the

people of tbat part of the colony to change their land regulations as regards pr oe, they could not do so without considerable loss arising on the security. With regard to the proposals of the Government as they stand, they appear to mo to he, in their title, their boldness, and in their professed spirit, a very great advanoe in our system, and I think that they have taken up a laudable and very excellent project indeed, that of bringing isolated parts of the colony together, and one which I am not prepared to oppose. I say so frankly, and I should oppose tho amendment of the hon member for Parnell had it been moved. I cannot, however, disguise from myself the fact that these proposals anticipate the future to an extent which I think is not safe ; but let us, without any feeling of opposition or any desire to condemn the Government proposals—let us aid the Government who initiated this undertaking, in building it up upon the best information at command, now before we go home. I do not care how long it takes us—let us build up a plan by which we can give effect to a large portion of the Government proposals. I am not going to say tbat one million is enough, or that two millions is enough, or that the ten millions proposed by the Government for constructing railways and publio works is too much. What I want is, that we should go into the matter as business men, and carefully consider upon what practical basis we can aot, and what amount of money tho colony can afford to spend in this direction —to have the scheme of immigration fairly adjusted, so that labor may not be taken from the labor market for the purpose of making Government works, that we shall not throw down before the colony six million aores of land and a corresponding quantity of paper, and cay—there, we have the stamp duties, the increase of population, the problematical railway revenue, and that will make up the annual oharge That is not the way I should like to see the question go to the country. I should like hon members to aid the Government in coming to a practical settlement of this matter. I say the Government have every reason to be satisfied with their share of the work. To them belongs the glory and credit of initiating these measures, of giving to the people something which they have wanted for years, and which they could not wait for any longer; but I do say that tho country is not yet propared to bear the immense weight of the burdens that are proposed to be put upon them. Let us take counsel together and rear up a scheme which we can defend fully and freely, and not in a half-hearted manner, as I should have to deal with the scheme as it now stood. I want to support the Government honestly and heartily. I want progress to be made in publio works that can be constructed reasonably and profitably ; but I do not want the colony to be involved in liabilities which it is doubtful whether we should be able to meet, Ido not think it is the duty of the House to do bo. Ido not think the Government, now when members have given up all opposition, when they have come out of the caves and dens—now when they have put aside personal prejudices and party feelings, and those miserable considerations whioh have actuated many for years past, and which we never could get rid of, should force their scheme upon us. I say to the Government, do not force it upon the country; give us an opportunity of consultation with you, and of inducing sympathy and confidence on the part of the public, end let us with one spirit, in a clear mind, and with one fair and honest intention, aid the Government in carrying out those great operations which in my opinion will make this country greater and better than the most sanguine could expect.