PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Press, Volume V, Issue 594, 24 September 1864, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Friday, September 23, 1864.

The Council met at 12 o'clock. Present—The Speaker, Messrs. Beswick, Clark, Cox, Fyfe, Hall, Hawkes, Lance, Rolleston, Simms, Shand, Tancm!*TosMwdl, Turnbull, Westenra, White, C. Wilson, W. Wilson. Prayers having been read by the Yen. the Chaplain, the minutes were read and confirmed. In reply to a question from Mr. Clark as to the leported outbreak of fever in the Immigration Barracks, The Provincial Secretary said that he was glad the subject had been brought before the Council. . It was true that six deaths had occurred among the passengers arrived in the British Empire. Tho passengers had been landed in a very weak state, and j several children had died, and one grown person. The Government directed the medical officer to report whether it was safe to allow the immigrants to leave ' the barracks, or whether they ought, to be declared in : a state of infection. That report had been furnished. ' The medical officer reported that five deaths had occurred, two adults and three children; lie had | removed the four fever case? to an isolated part of the building. He had also inspected those immigrants who were on the point of leaving the barracks, and found them all perfectly healthy, and he saw no cause j at all for declaring the barracks infected. j In reply to a question from Mr. Cox as to the I subsidy to steamers running to Timaru and Dunedin, The Provincial Secix-etaey said that since the j discussion respecting the present contract, Government had made enquiries, and fouud it was in the highest degree advisable that the steamers should go J on to Dunedin. , THE CHRI3TCHTTECH BUILDI**TG ACT. j Mr. Clibe explained that Mr. Ollivier was unable to attend in consequence of his serving on a jury, and asked that the motion for tlie committal of this Bill should be postponed, which was agreed to. THE SHEEP RATING BILL. The Secretary fob Public Works proposed to move that the Sheep Rating Bill be read a second time. This motion had been made on a former occasion and negatived, but he believed that according to the practice of the House of Commons it was competent for him to renew it. He begged to have the ruling of the Speaker on that point. Mr. Tosswill said it was distinctly laid down in May that no Bill could be thrown out unless by a substantive motion that it be read again a second time on some future date, such as three or six months. TheSPEAEER said this was the first time the point had ever been raised in the Council, but there were strong and conclusive grounds for affording an opportunity for bringing on a second reading of the Bill on another day. He wished, however, to know ! whether the Council generally understood that the : negative passed upon the second reading was con- : , elusive as to the fate of the Bill, because the present ,

course was contrary to what had hitherto been the practice of the Council, and would require full and i ample notice to be given of the intentions of the < mover. The Secretary for Public Works thought that an unusual amount of notice had been given. He had informed the Council some time previously that he intended to renew- his motion for "the second < rending of this Bill, and it had been upon tho order paper for two or three successive dnys. i Mr. Cox confirmed the statements made by Mr. ( Hall, and was glad that the opportunity was given of , taking the sense of the House a second time upon , the question. The Secretary for Public Works moved the second reading of the Bill. Oa a former occasion lie had fully explained the reasons,which induced the Government to bring it forward ; they did not look on it as a final measure, but asked the Council to affirm the principle. The principle on wliich the Bill was based was this, that as by a deficiency in legislative power they were unable to levy on pastoral property in the fairest and simplest manner, by ratmg the runs and improvements at their due value, it was necessary to impose the same share of public burdens in some other way. If hon. members did not object to that he hoped they would let the Bill go to Committee and there fix what would be a fair amount. . After a few remarks from Mr. Cox, in which he admitted that under the existing state of the law no other course was possible, the House resolved itself into committee. On the first clause being read, Mr. Ha wees asked whether it would not be possible to bring cattle and horses under tlie rate. It seemed unjust to rate sheep only, and leave large runs occupied only for tho breeding of cattle, entirely free from rate. The Secretary for Public Works remarked that cattle and horses did not furnish wool. The hon. member was abstractedly right ; he might even go farther, and tax all kinds of stock ; but cattle were scattered in small lots over the province, and horses still more so, and it would be a great trouble to make a list of them all —more trouble, in fact, than the rate was worth. Mr* Tosswill wished to remark that the runholders would be well represented at the Road Boards, as they were sure to have the five votes allowed by the Bill. The Board had power to levy what rate might appear desirable, and it was not at all necessary that they should impose the full amount. The clause was carried. On the second clause being read, which was as follows :—" The Eatepayers' Koll in each district constituted under the said Ordinance, in addition to the matters directed by the said Ordinance to be contained therein, shall contain a statement of the name of every person having the charge, control, or management of sheep within the district, together with a statement of the number of such sheep above the a<*e of twelve months, or of the net annual value of the same at the rate herein provided. The net annual value of sheep shall be taken to be at the rate of one hundred pounds for every thousand sheep, and the person under whose charge, control, or management, such sheep are shall be liable to the payment of the rate to be levied in respect thereof; provided always that no rate shall be levied on any sheep being under the charge, control, or management of ' the same person in any district, and being less than two thousand in number." The Secretary for Public Works thought they were all agreed that it was fair to rate the runs and improvements, and as they could not do so directly it was proposed to lay such a rate upon the sheep as would amount to the same sum that the runs would fetch if they were rated, and the thing to be done was to find out what would be a fair rate to impose. A 20,000 acre run was generally taken as an . illustration. He had said on a previous occasion that, such a run, with improvements, was worth £6000 ; perhaps that was rather too high an estimate, and the i highest sum which could fairly be said to represent i the average value of a 20,000 acre run with improvements, was £5000. This would give the net annual value of the run as £500. Supposing then that the run were to be rated at one shilling in the pound on . a value of £500, £25 a year would be the maximum i rate levied for ordinary road purposes. But as they ; could not rate the run, they wanted to get this £25 out of the sheep, and they had to find what rate upon the sheep would produce £25 a year. He was taking • a high average when he assumed that on a 20,000 acre run there would be 7000 adult sheep. Taking i the annual value of the sheep at £70 per 1000 (the . Bill as it stood said £100, but he proposed to sub- ■ stitute £70) the net annual value of the whole run would be £490, on which a rate of one shilling in the , pound would yield £24 10s. This approximation, he hoped, would be considered a fair compromise. ; He could not pass on without referring to the other i rates. The road rate ivould amount, as had just been shown, to £24 10s; the hospital rate, which was p something less than £1 per 1000, would be £6,'2s 6d ; , and the rate for inspection, which was £1 per 1000, ■ would be £7. The whole, therefore, would amount to £37 12s 6d, or slightly in excess of £5 per 1000 which the hon. member for Geraldine had suggested might be imposed to cover all rates whatever ; and left the Btockowner the chance of not having the maximum rate imposed, or of not having 7000 sheep on his run. In the next paragraph of this clause he i should propose an alteration, to this effect; that in preparing the roll there should be deducted from the - number of sheep liable to be rated, a number equal to the acres of rateable land held by the owner in the same district. This would not meet the case of the smaller farmers, whose land had been cultivated and was able to carry more than one sheep to the acre, and therefore a proviso was added by which sheep under two thousand in number were exempted from rate. He moved that the word " seventy " be substituted for the words " one hundred." Mr.-Toasw-XL wished to point out one imperfection. He put tho case of a runholder occupying a 20,000 acre run, and a freeholder who had 2&00 acres, mostly laid down to grass. It appeared that the total rate upon the runholder would be £37 10s, while the freeholder, at 15s an acre, would have to pay £75. The Secretary fob Publto Wobes thought the answer to that was that the Bill was a temporary one. It would only be in operation for two years, and he did not think there would be any case within two years of so large a quantity of land being laid down iv grass. Mr. C. Wilsoi* thought the objection of the hon. member for Lincolu a sonnd one. Cases would occur under thia Bill in which men would be taxed twice over, once for the land which they had laid down in grass, and again for having more than 2000 sheep. This was putting an emb*--*- on the improvement of land. Mr. Cox said that the raeaiuve was only a temporary one, and could create injustice only in cases where large quantities of land had been laid down in grass, which, as a matter of fact, did not exist. Mr. To3S\vi__ admitted that though he had raised the objection he could not see his way to a means of remedying it. The Skcbetaby fob Public Wobes moved that tlie following words be introduced : " provided also that in preparing the rate roll there be deducted from the number of sheep for which any person shall be liable to be rated, a number equal to the number of acres of land within the district in respect of which such person shall be liable to be rated." The clause, as amended, was passed. On the next clause, which enacted that the Superintendent should "on the first day of— next, cause to be prepared for each Koad District throughout the province a list of all sheep depastured within the district, together with a statement of the net annual value of the same and the person liable to be rated in respect thereof." The Secretary fob Public Wobes proposed to insert, on the first day of February. He was aware that the Bill placed an unusual power in the hands of the Superintendent, but it was tlie only way in which it could be brought into operation in time |tobe of service. He also asked leave to insert as an I add tional clause the words " This Ordinance shall be !in force till the first of October, 1866, and no : loi ger."

These amendments were agreed to, and the re- ! maining clauses of the Bill were passed without discussion. The House then resumed. MESSAGE FROM THB 6UPEBINTENDEXT. A message was announced from his Honor the Superintendent, whtch the Speaker read to the House. His Honor said that ho had received the recommendation of the Council on the subject of proclaiming an agricultural district at Timaru, and requested that the Council would make certain specified amendments in the description. THE SHEEr BLLX. On the motion of the Provincial Sbcretaby, the Council resolved itself into committee on the Sheep Bill. The only object was to effect an alteration in the arrangement of tho clauses, which being done, the House resumed. THE WAIHAKABIBI. Mr. Beswick moved — That a respectful address be presented to his Honor tlie Superintendent, requesting: him to place upon the Estimates such sum of money as may tie nicessary for the purpose of temporarily protev-ilng the Island at Kaiapoi from the encroachment ot the river, and for such other works as may be nece*sary to enable the Provincial Engineer to collect sufficient data on which to form an opinion as to the practicability of keeping the river under control. It would be remembered how about nine months previously the river had left its proper channel, and had thereby caused a great destruction of property. A deputation had waited on tho Government to represent the necessity of taking steps to prevent this, but the Government declined to act in the matter till a complete surrey had been taken by some competent authority. Mr. Doyne had been employed to take such a survey, and had scut in a report which was not encouraging to Government to take any steps for the preservation of property. That report gavo little comfort to men who had large property near the river in the district, and he, being tlie member for the district, was requested to call a meeting of the inhabitants to see what could be done. A deputation was appointed by that meeting to wait upon his Honor tlie Superintendent, who, he was bound to say, met them iv a very fair spirit, but said that in the face of Mr. Doyne's report, it was impossible to enter upon any large works without first obtaining the consent of the Council. Those persons who were acquainted with the river had great occasion to take exception to Mr. Doyne's conclusions; he himself was one of them, and he had ventured to prophecy that the water would : come back again into the old channel. Very lately there had been a heavy fresh in tlie river, and the ■ water had come back as he said, being aided in doingso by a temporary work which the Government had i put up, and which Mr. Doyne had advised them ! not. Those best acquainted with the river , believed that works larger than any he i was now asking the Government to undertake would keep a large tract of country always safe from inundation. What he wished was, that as there was now a Provincial Engineer, that officer . should receive instructions to make himself thoroughly acquainted with the river. Mr. Doyne had only been . up the river once, and his own levels did not bear i out tho conclusions he had arrived at. After the Provincial Engineer had had time to acquire a perfect ; knowledge of the river, Government might next year come down with plans for some permanent works i which would put an end to the damage the river was s now doing. It was a thing to be considered how far > men had a right to come on the country when sufferi ing under anact of God, as in this case, but though that principle could not be admitted in the case of [ individuals, he thought that where a large number r. of the community were affected, they had such a right, ; and it must be remembered too that the people of > Kaiapoi had no power to do anything to help them- ; selves, such as levying a rate or otherwise. Tlie • Council had once voted £10,000, as an act of charity, for I the distressed Lancashire operatives, and he thought > they ought also to look at home and consider those i who were suffering here. But if a scheme were t proposed involving the expenditure of a large sum of r money, they would not ask the Government to bear the whole cost, as the residents both ought to and i t would take a large Bhare on themselves. If the Pro- ■ vincial Secretary would put a small sum on the esti- \ mates for temporary defences, and promise that the r Engineer should have instructions to examine into the \ subject, he should be perfectly satisfied. Christchurch . also was concerned, for according to Mr. Bray the i river was likely some day to come down not upon j Kaiapoi but upon Christchurch, and if what he had proposed was carried out, much valuable experience . would be gained, which would be found useful if on • any occasion Christchurch were threatened. He did i not believe in lying down idle under Mr. Doyne's j report. That would be like a ship springing a leak, ; and the carpenter crying out, "It's of no use working the pumps or trying to save the ship ; we must all go \ down." He did not believe in that sort of thing. ) He would now leave it to Government to say what 1 should be expended, and he only hoped to hear that [ something was likely to be done which would be a ■ permanent remedy. 1 Mr. W. Wilson seconded the motion. The Secbetaby fob Public Works was sure the \ Council would believe him when he said that this had j been a subject of anxious consideration to the Gov- , ernment. If they could not do all they wished they \ had most carefully considered the matter, and had attempted to do all they could for Kaiapoi Island. The hon. member for Mandeville must have taken \ an incorrect view of Mr. Doyne's report if he thought that the events of the last few weeks contradicted it. Mr. Doyne had said that no works permanently protecting Kaiapoi Island could be completed for a cost which they would be justified in expending—that they wotdd cost more than the real value of the land. The hon. member had also been misinformed as to \ the extent of Mr. Doyne's personal observation of the river, while the levels taken to his orders, which was the most important thing, were much more complete than had even been taken before. It would have been an easy and more popular task for Mr. Doyne to draw up a more favorable report, but he had shown a courage and honesty which they ought to appreciate in plainly telling an unpalatable truth. What Mr. Doyne had said was, that works permanently securing Kaiapoi Island could not be constructed for a reasonable sum. This had been impugned ; but the Government would refer to the report of the Railway Commissioners, among whom was comprised most of tho engineering talent of the province, and they, with one exception, • had arrived at the unanimous conclusion, after examining Mr. Doyne's plans and levels, tiiat no works could be undertaken to protect Kaiapoi Island at a cost less than the whole value of the property to be protected. That was the opinion of the local talent. He did not mean to say that Government would not do what they could to alleviate the distress that had • been caused to Kaiapoi ; but it was not the duty of Government to protect a.l parts of the territory from the visitations of Providence that might overtake them. Government was not responsible for the course of the Waimakariri, and 'must be careful not to make itself responsible. If however, withiu reasonable limits they could do anything for the people of Kaiapoi, it was their duty to do so. It would not be right to say that Government had done nothing ; during the past year £3 "00 had been expended on these works, and if they should see an opportunity of spending the money beneficially, they would take on themselves the responsibility of doing so without vote of the Council" They had placed on the estimates the sum of £500, which was tho, most that with their present information they could suppose the Council would allow to be expended. They were encouraged by the hon. member for Mandeville to hope that the residents would assist with contributions, and thus enable experiments to be carried out during the year, and if they saw a chance of spending a larger sum with any hope of success Government would not shrink from ths responsibility of doing it. Dr. Tr/BSBCXL thought tho best way in wliich the people of Kaiapoi could assist themselves was by

getting first-rate professional advice, and if that should be opposed to tho opinion of Mr. Doyne, Govern, ment would bo bound to take further proceedings in the matter. & m Mr. Fyfe considered that the inhabitants ought to bear a very considerable portion of the responsibility one advantage of which would be that they would „ about tlie work in a much more energetic manner All the districts interested in the work had ths power of levying special rates, and he considered they ought to be prepared to do that, before askin* - assistance from the Government, who were onhr justified in spending money when they could sees beneficial and useful result following. There wm another light in which the question should be looked at. The engineers having coudemned the work to be done, he thought there was the strongest argument for the inhabitants coming forward and doing ths work themselves. Mr. Tosswill could not agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Christchurch that it would bs advisable for the inhabitants of the district to employ another engineer to report upon the case. He* seemed to have forgotten the fact that fivo out of the six engineers in this province had corroborated Mr Doyne's report, so that excepting that gentleman" who had local interests at stake in tho every man was influenced more or less by local in. terests—the others had given their decision in favor of the report. Mr. Cox wished to know what the nature of the responsibility was that the Government were lik_y to take upon themselves in the matter. Supposing those works did what it was proposed they do, protect property at a certain point, and by so doing injure some one else, would the Government incur any legal liability in such a case, that is, if those works were undertaken against the advice of their engineer ? The Secbetaby for PrßLio Wobks said that the question was a serious one. The land aflocted was not merely the land on the island itself, but it was quite possible that works might be carried out, which might divert the water from the island, and throw it upon the land. He did not think that the Government would be justified for the purpose of protecting one portion of the community, in ends., gering the interests of another. [Hear, hear.] And any works about which the Government would be advised, involving this danger, they would not be justified in carrying out. Mr. J. C. Wilson had had a good deal of experience in cases of this nature in India and elsewhere, and he thought the Government should be very •autious as to how they acted. Mr. Beswick held in very great respect scientific men, but any scientific man propounding theories wliich were contrary to facto he was very suspicious - of. When he found Mr. Doyne giving in a report upon the Waimakariri, saying he had examined the river, and that the data he gave were unquestionable, and when he (Mr. Beswick) found that some of these data were wrong, then he was inclined to imagine that the theory was based on false premises. In that report it was given out that the country had a northern dip. Now, that was contradicted by Maori ~ tradition, and anyone having the slightest idea of . geology, would find that the northern branch was older than the southern. The Maori tradition held that 30 or 40 years ago the south branch was lidtle better than a mud channel. At the time he went to Kaiopoi some years ago, the river was flowing in the northern channel, and he had since spokes to Mr. Hammett, who told him that when ' he had surveyed the river the southern branch was nothing like the size it wss at present, and Mr. Bray gave it as his opinion that there was more fear of the river coming to Christ* ' church than there was of its going north. The inhabitants had done every thing possible to meet in • fair war the wishes of the Government; but the Government told them they must not attempt to ssvs themselves ; they were prevented on principle from throwing them a life-buoy. He believed Mr. Doyne had formed rather a hasty conclusion on the matter, and he doubted the correctness of some of his levels. With regard to what fell from an hon. geotlemsn, the Road Board of the district was perfectly* wQiing to take the river in hand; but that was denied He hoped the Government would consent to'-Ssb-fe* thing more than they had promised; at any rite if.' they gave him the assurance that during the yasr the Provincial Engineer would have his attention - directed to the river, and give his advice as to " what should be done in the matter, he for one mi quite willing to abide by the decision arrived it. The Secbetaby cob Publio Wobes said he - could give no asurance that the Government would adopt any course reflecting on Mr. Doyne's qualifiea* tions, but as it was now part of the Ptorinfflsl Engineer's work, his attention should be directed-to the matter. The motion was then pat and carried. BESIDENT MAGISTRATE'S COURT, TTMA-TJ. Mr. Cox moved—That in the opinion ot (Ail Council the time is arrived when the Resident Magistrate's Jurisdiction Extension Act", 18&V----should be brought into operation in the G"»urt of the Resident Magistrate of Timaru; that the limits of the jurisdiction of the said court be at once extended" . to sums not exceeding £50; that a copy of these resolutions be sent to his Honor the Superintendent with the request that he will transmit the same to ths 1 Governor ; and that in accordance with Clause 10 of the above-mentioned Act, the Covernor in CJoundL will be pleased to issue the necessary proclamation to - the above effect in the Government Gazette. Am &• as he could ascertain, the operation of the-Act itt -.-, Christchurch, Lyttelton, and Kaiapoi had been., successful [hear, hear] ; but in the case of Timsro, he, thought it better to limit the amount to £50. * ~ Mr. W. Wilson had much pleasure in seconding the motion. The working of the Act had been vaf ductive of great benefits in thoso places to which it applied, and he had unlimited confidence thsil-naru would find it equally beneficial. ___*, The Secbetaby fob Pußiio Works had great . pleasure in supporting the resolution. Whatever might be said of the taxes of the Government, there , was another body which imposed greater tsxes. [Laughter]. The people of Canterbury had a JOW against them on account of tho amount of taxes they submitted to for legal purposes. Mr. Tosswill hoped that the hon. gentlenisn would not pause here. There was snolier boonto be obtained for them, he meant Mr. Torrens' M * ro ! perty Act" of Australia. He hoped every member « the General Assembly present would use his nt_»» endeavors to get the Act introduced. ' - After a few remarks from Mr. J. C. Wn-0», Urn motion was carried. , JOTJB-ALS OP THE GENEBAL ASS-KB-X. Mr. Cox moved— __~ That hia Honor tlie Superintendent be «_P**J fully requested to cause to be ftirnished to the BSWj* 1 Government, for the use of the* General Assemruj* copies in duplicate of the journals of *™* _ al %_ well as duplicate copies of all Canterbury OnUauK** Also, lhat his Honor the Superintendent be reapeeam rcniKst<.*d to communicate with the General « OT j»™* . meut, asking for copies in duplicate of tho J°w~*" JJ " the General Assembly, as.weU as duplicate copieiw all Acts of the General __aembly, for the use or w» t Council. " .. " The motion was carried. COHMITTEK Of SUPPIiT. On the motion of the PBOvnrciAL SecbeTA"T&»" House went into committee to consider the tmroMn expenditure, amounting to £7569 9s Id, which *" passed, and the House resumed. •• ~ TIMABT/ AGBICT/LTT/BAL DISTBIOT. I '_ The PEOvryciA- Secbetaby moved an M ment on the resolution of the Council of August J*> 1864, on the subject of the Timaru agricultural district, as recommended by his Honor the Supan****e_» - dent, in his message to the House. The motion was carried. ABTESIAX WELL. Mr. Tosswill moved — That a respectful address be prese n . t «* £«$» Honor the Superintendent, requesting him "»P""3ou the estimates the sura of _*100 lor thepurpwe™ sinkiujran artcsiau well at Buch place on tlie pi«» a* ia his opinion shall be beet adapted for p_» u » utility. Should a work of this sort be successful, tt would M

"L- treat benefit to tho country generally They _*•»* calculate the enormous benefit which *« _n_tto tbe finances of the country from the in tbe value of land in consequence. ZSfg mSoThtfvmg been given, the House until Tuesday evenmg at the usual hoar .