The General Assembly.

Bruce Herald, Volume IX, Issue 815, 27 June 1876, Page 6

The General Assembly.

w (From the 'Times.') HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, 21st June. Messrs Bryce, Taiaroa, Reid, and Russell were sworn in. Sir J. Yogel formally moved the adjournment of the House, to give members an opportunity of speaking upon his notice of motion, which was to the effect that he would move to-morrow, when the House met, that the House affirms the desirability of completing the Piako Swamp transaction. It was desirable that before any business was gone on with the House should finally settle the question. A resolution was then carried that the House, at its rising, should adjourn till the following day at 7.30. Sir J. Yogel gave notice he would move that Mr O'Rorke be appointed Chairman of Committees. Sir G. Grey gave notice to ask Government when and by whom was paid the purchase money of the Piako Swamp, and for the production of all papers in connection with that and other land sales. Sir J. Yogel brought up the report of the Committee upon the Disqualification Act, and asked, upon the recommendation of the Committee, that a Bill be passed through all its stages as rapidly as possible. Mr Rees objected, saying that the Bill would require amendment before passing. The Bill was read a first time. In reply to Sir G. Grey, Sir Donald M'Lean said he would take an early opportunity of placing before the House the fullest possible inf rmation with regard to his recent meeting with Tawhiao. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time: — Otago Presbyteiian Church Incorporation Validation Bill (Mr Reynolds), Bill for Regulating Local Elections, Bi'l Making and Levying of Rates, Municipal Corporation* Consolidation bui (Sir J. Yogel). The usual Sessional Committees were appointed, also one to enquire into the expediency of prohibiting the importation of cattle into Mew Zealand, and to consider the present state of the cattle in the Kaikoura district. A Bill was introduced to enable the Superintendent of Wellington to appoint a DeputySuperintendent, and was read a first time. Thursday, 22nd June. ! Sir J. Yogel read a telegram from the Colonial Secretary of New South Wales, i asking whether the $ew gealand Govern-

ment would be willing to bear a share of the expense of subsidising a fast steamer to run over the break, and enable them to get their telegrams to hand every 12 days. Had not Parliament been sitting, the Government would have felt justified in at once agreeing to bear a portion of the cost, which would be about £200 per month. He proposed sending a telegram saying New Zealand was willing, provided Victoria contributed. Tho House offered no objection, and it was understood that the Government of New South Wales would bo communicated with, and tho necessary appropriation made in the usual way. In replying to Mr Burns, Sir J, Yogel said that no bonus had ever been paid for the manufacture of paper in the Colony Replying to Mr Macandrew, Sir J. Yogel said that the abatement of the rabbit nuisance was under consideration of the Government. In answer to Sir (}. Grey, Sir ../. Vojsel said tbat ihe price of the Piako Swamp was paid in Auckland on the 14th .June. Mr Taiaroa asked what had Government done with regard to the unfulfilled promises to the Natives of the Middle Island. The Native Minister replied that the Go-ve.__.-_-t had up to the present time been unable to obtain the services of gentlemen .competent to undertake the duties of the Native Com mission they had promised. Sir J. Yogel rose to move that the House would not interfere to prevent the issue of the Crown grant for the Piako Swamp. a. Hon. gentleman prefact d his remarks by st<>^H ing circumstances which had occurred after the recent divisions upon Sir G. Grey's motions. Upon receiving the resolutions passed by their supporters at their caucus meeting, they replied that it would be impossible they could remain in office a day without having this Piako Swamp sale cleared up. They were, therefore, anxious to test the matter, so that, if the opinion of the House was against them, his Excellency should seek other advisers. After adverting to the irregular action of Sir G. Grey, he put it to the hon. members that, however strong party-fpeling might run, it was absolutely necessary there should be some concerted arrangement outside the House for the transaction of business within it. Where this was not done, it was in the power of a single member to put the House to a great deal of inconvenience. The hon, member then read a number of letters, telegrams, and other documents, with reference to the Piako Swamp sale, which had passed between the Native Minister, the Colonial Secretary, and Mr Russell, during the period of two months, while the sale was being negotiated. These documents, he thought, were a conclusive answer to the charges that the negotiations had been conducted in a private room. As far as he was personally concerned, he had nothing to do with the matter beyond giving his approval. Erom beginning to end the negotiations were entirely in the hands of the Native Minister, though he did not complete it without submitting the matter to the Government. As to the insinuations that he favored Mr Russell, he thought he was entitled to ask the House to allow him to treat these insinuations with contempt. — (Hear, hear.) He appealed to the Native Minister to state if he ever committed himself to any decision without having been requested to do so. — (Hear, hear, from Sir Donald M'Lean.) With re gard to this purchase, he could say that if he had again to come to a decision under similar circumstances he would act as he did then. It was the greatest extravagance of idea to think the land could have been rendered available to settlers without an enormous expenditure. The construction of that road was one of the very best things that could have happened to the district. To have put up that land to auction they were fully con* vinced would have rendered them the laugh-ing-stock of everybody. Even now there were about 40,000 acres that could not be drained without mechanical appliances. In fact, with a full knowledge of all the facts of the case, he still maintained that the Government had the best of the bargain. Notwithstanding all that was said to the contrary, he believed that [if the works were offered to Government at cost price, there would not be found half a dozen members in the House who would sanction so hazardous an undertaking, because it was impossible to say what amount of money would have to be expended before the speculation could be said to be a success. With regard to their legal power, there was not the slightest doubt that the Governor possessed all the power he exercised in the matter, which was only the same as in a great many others dealt with in the same way. There might be a question raised as to the expediency of the sale, but none whatever as to its legality. To explain the reason why they issued their Order in Council before the meeting of Parliament, the hon. member read telegrams from the Native Minister stating he had secured the Native interests in the land adjoining the Swamp, and that a map of land had been prepared ; and also read a letter from Mr Whitaker on behalf of the purchasers calling upon the Government to carry out the agreement, by giving a Crown grant for the land, which grant could not have been granted before survey had been completed. The purchasers having spent a very large sum of money upon the land to which they possessed no title, they had a perfect right to demand that the Government should fulfil the obligation and Crown grant the land so soon ac they were in a position to do so. The hon. gentleman then submitted a map of the Swamp io the House, and pointed out how a good deal of the land it was originally intended \q allow la*

- ■),", , f'i. 1 ' '-■ '"■■■■■'■l 111 "gggg purchaier to have was taken away by the Government for Maori purposes, so that instead of the purchasers getting more land than was originally intended, and as was alleged, they, on the contrary, got a great deal less. On' one point he felt bound to say that the hou. member for Auckland City West committed gross affronts and insul l upon the Ministry, the House, and the public at large, by appealing to the Home Government and the British Parliament on a question of this kind. He would boldly say that the majority of the people of the Colony, would strongly resent the interference of the Home Government in matters of purely local concern.— (Hear, hear) The hon. member for Auckland West had gone the length, of saying that the Government had made a corrupt sale, and by implication the last Parliament participated. Well, he thought he was not so angry as he should be with the member for Auckland West, because he felt that the hon. gentleman labored under a morbid hallucination on some questions, as, for instance, when he thought Auckland ran the risk of being cannonaded by her Mejesty's ships. He urged the House not to deal with the question as a party one. He did not think for a moment that the member for Dunedin City, Mr. Macandrew, or the member for Roslyn, Mr Burns, who had known him a long time, could possibly believe he would have lent himself to such corruption as was alleged. He held that the sale was a good one, that it was admitted now to be so, and that the Government had full power to make the sale. He therefore left the question to _tfre impartiality of the House. — (Applause.) G. Grey rose, amidst applause, and <i_P_u_ this Parliament called them to do what no Anglo-Saxon people, except the United Slates, had been called to do, and it was with wonder and delight that he saw how the House responded when he raised the cry of public wrong. He inwardly exclaimed, The hour and the men have come, and this Parliament is equal to the great questions before it. Touching the relations between the Governor and the Ministry, he said the country required a Governor who would place an arrogant Minitry in their proper place, and give fair play to the Parliament and people of the Colony. Referring to the Swamp purchase, he said that as Superintendent of the pro* vince, he applied at Auckland for certain information regarding the sale, and failing that, he had no other course to pursue than when he found himself in the midst of Parliament to raise aloud the cry of great public wrong. He stood before them as one accused of lunacy, and he therefore appealed to their sympathy. First of all, he would ask them to dismiss from their minds all the letters and documents written by the Premier as trash and twaddle. They were worth nothing. This transaction did not stand alone. There were many other similar transactions, each one more grossly wrong than the other, and he instanced a case where 10,000 acres of coal land were sold privately, after being put up to public auction and not sold. The Hon Mr Atkinson — It is untrue. Sir G. Grey declined to proceed unless an apology was made for the expression, and appealed to the Speaker. The Speaker said that if Mr Atkinson could not prove the statement to be untrue, his expression would recoil upon himself. Sir G. Grey then proceeded to refer to other transactions in land, which he considered a great wrong to the Maori as well as to the European race. He maintained that all the Premier stated to the Bouse bore out his (Grey's) allegations. Another thing he wished to point out to the House was, that there were two Ministers in that House and in the other, who were members of the Civil service, and who were therefore not as independent as Ministers ought to be, and that the Premier exercised an undue influence over them. He believed the action of the Government was illegal, that their Orders in Council were so much waste paper, and that high legal authority told them so, though the Premier never said anything about it. He would give his belief — it was, of course, , only belief— that the Piako Swamp would, when drained, become as valuable as Romney Marsh in England. He deprecated the idea j of keejftng in a Ministry simply to secure Abolition, no matter what their wrongdoings. The inhabitants of New Zealand were able to secure Abolition themselves, and he warned the Ministry they would have yet to remit that question to the people. He would not attempt to prove his case any further. The Premier had already done that for him, He, as a supplicant, would withdraw from the House when the vote was takeu upon this question, and he asked the Ministry to do the same. It was not right they shouM be judges in their own cause. Mr Stafford thought the house had a right to expect from the hon. gentleman some substantial proof in support of the accusation of corruption he so generally and freely bestowed. But what had they got but a wild speech upon everything on the face of the earth, except the Piako Swamp. He must gay he could not but admire the unexampled audacity with which Sir George endeavored to cast opprobrium upon the (Jovernor by saying he was not an independaot gentleman, and that he was but a tool in the kaada of the Ministry . Why, when he (Mr Stafford) was Premier, and Sir George Grey Governor, the very ihiDgs ha so condemned now were the regular practices. He spoke with indignation of the Governor Signing a blank paper, and yet when the member for Auckland West was Governor blank documentseven Her Majesty's prerogative — were signed, not in ones or tens, but in hundreds, At the time, and left entirely tp the discretion 9f tlw 3^»»iw biingplf to usp. It really

appeared that since Sir Geo. Grey coased to be Governor he did nothing but bark at all who followed him as Governor. - Had there Been any alteration on the Governors of modern days ? The hon. member evidently held some morbid idea. It wa_ not possible any Governor now appointed could be worse than the previous one. Why, the whole principle of responsible Government was that the Governor should seek the advice" of his responsible advisers. Why, without any law at all, or any sanction whatever, the hon. member himself (Sir George Grey) sent to the people in Sydney, telling them if they came here he would give them land to settle upon -, and yet he talked of the actions of the present Ministry. Yet when he was Governor an Order in Council was issued to complete land arrangements, Even the coalfield sale he referred to as more corruption, he (Sir George) had offered that land for sale in vain. It was well known nothing could be done with it unless it was in the hand of one man. The Piako sale was one of expediency — he absolutely refused to believe there was any corruption. When he was iv ofiice and finances were not flourishing he would have been glad to sell that land if he could. What the land was worth then and what it was now were two different things. He had seen the lower part of the Swamp when it could have been sailed over as easily as the Waikato River, and the centre of the swamp no man had ever yet seen. He thought at the time the sale was made that it was a very good one in consequence of the large amount of capital and labor it caused to be brough fc into the district! He repudiated the idea that the issue of Orders in Council was improper ; to do so had always been a common and even necessary practice. At the conclusion of his speech the hon. member said he was told by high legal authority that Orders in Council were worth no more than waste paper. That was a common expression with the hon. member, but he carefully kept back the names of all these authorities, and, as members well know, there were lawyers and lawyers. He deprecated the action of the member for Auckland West bringing in so limited a question like Piako Swamp before the House had an opportunity of dealing with questions of a far more important character. Mr Stout stated his reasons for how he voted on the Piako question. Those who intended to support the resolution moved by the Premier must remember that they would practically endorse the sale of such large blocks of land as good, and endorse the doing of it in secret without public competition. There was no stipulation that the land should be settled. If all the land that could be at once sold by auction was to be sold to large capitalists, then millions of acres in New Zealand would have to be sold immediately. Nothing had been stated to show the sale was expedient. On the contrary, Government knew that the land would soon increase in value from the projected railway. Besides, there was no Native war on at the time. The hon. member then proceeded to discuss the legality of the pale, saying that the Government ought to have laid, before the House the opinion of their legal adviser upon the matter ; but he doubted whether a legal gentleman could be found who would risk his reputation by stating that the action of the Government in issuing Orders in Council was legal. This agreement was noc a violation of, but a fraud on, an Act of Parliament. They said the land had been open for sale for years, but it had never been open upon the same terms as those upon which Mr Russell had obtained it. Surely the Colony was not confined to one capitalist who represented a Loan and I Mercantile Agency Company. He depreI cated the bad example set by the Premier to new members, in not conducting a debate on administration without calling an hon. member a lunatic. Referring to the ridicule the Premier threw upon the Superintendent of Auckland for imagining Auckland ran the risk of being bombarded, he called to the recollection of the Premier how he bombarded the Court Houses iv Otago, because certain delegated powers were not given to the Superintendent. He cheered the remark of the Premier in deprecating the action of Sir George Grey in appealing to a power outside our local Parliam ent. He would remind the Hou3e they had a local Parliament in Otago, and people there ! claimed the right of administering their local affairs without intervention of any other power.— (loud applause from the Opposition.) As far as the defeat of the Ministry wa3 concerned, he did not wish to see them leave the Government Benches, not at least, till he saw tho Financial Statement. He objected to the form of the motion ; he moved, as an amendment — " That while the House regrets that the exigencies of the Colony, or Ministry, should ever require the sale of a large block of land such as the Piako Swamp, to one individual, and without competition, it is yet of opinion that the Crown Grant for said Piako Swamp should be issued, in order that the legality of the Grant may, if any person feels himself aggrieved thereby, be tested before the proper judicial tribunal." Mr Stout put it to the Government whether they would accept this proposition 1 The Government declined to do so, and, On the motion of Mr Reader Wood, the House adjourned at 12 30. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :— Canterbury Educational Reserves Leasing Act, a Bill to validate a certain proclamation of the Superintendent of Otago, and a Bill to amend the Licensing Laws of the Colony. FiiiDAY 22nd Jr'NK. After some miscellaneous business, in reply to Mr Stevens, Sir J.JVogel, re Hall Forbes contract, said the loss entailed upon the Colony was

£18,765. No money had yet been recovered; but he might Bay that there waa reason to expect Borne portion would be recovered, a compromise having been proposed. He hoped to be able to lay more information on the matter before the House before the session closed. Sir J. Yogel moved the second reading of the Disqualification Act Amendment Bill, the object of which was to legalise certain elections, and which could inflict no injury upon any one . Mr James Macandrew seconded the motion, and the Bill was read a second time. The adjourned debate on the Piako Swamp land sale was then resumed by Mr Reader Wood, who held that the action of the Government was illegal. Mr Rees also attacked the action of the Government- in the matter, and after commenting with some severity upon the Premier, and his bank correspondence, called attention to the fact that the Crown grant was not to be made out for Mr Russell, but for the Loan Company, and said that at their recent meeting in London an actuary recommended they should not pay such high dividends, as the Colony might overrun the constable. Referring to the Premier's remark about Sir G. Grey as to the bombardment of Auckland, the hon. member said if the letter to the Secretary for the Colonies was that of a lunatic, then the arguments of the Premier, when he said they would become a laughing stock if they offered eighty thousand acres at auction, was the argument of an idiot. The Speaker pointed out that the expression was not put in a Parliamentary way. Mr Ormond said that when the hon. member who led the Opposition rose to substantiate his grave charges, he utterly failed to bring forward one tittle of evidence to prove his case. The hon. member said he was one of the Committee which inquired into the Piako Swamp. That was a Political Committee, and he regretted there were too many political committees last session, because the effect was bad. He had no doubt that the Piako Committee inquired into that matter irrespective of party bias, and they found not a particle of evidence to support a charge of corruption. Mr DeLautour contended that the Government should have submitted the policy of the sale to the House during the session of 1874. Mr Bryce said that the question had been made a party one. Touching the sale itself, he knew as much about the Swamp as anyone without personal knowledge j and he held that if it was desirable to make grass grow where only rushes grew, and if that could not be done under ordinary means, then it was expedient to sell it to those possessed of large capital. Another reason was that it could only be rendered available by making a road through the Swamp. In order to show what was thought of the Swamp, he mentioned that when the member for Bruce was looking for land to invest in the North Island he passed the edge of the Swamp, but saw he could not see h _ way to invest in it, as it would require a comprehensive scheme to make the land available. The hon. member for Bruce, in his examination before the Committee, said that the Government had received a fair price for the Swamp, and he was not likely to give evidence in favor of the Government if it was not true. He also said he thought that the Government ought to drain the land and sell it to small farmers, but it was not likely that the House would be pleased to see the Government embark in such operations. All this went to show it was expedient to sell the land, as had been done. Mr Murray proceeded to show there was no necessity to make a road through the Swamp, so as to get to other land, and that, in fact, the road was perfectly valueless for dray traffic. Since he gave his evidence last year, he visited the Swamp, and found there was a great deal more dry land than he thought. One of the gravest aspects of the case was, if he was informed correctly, tbat considerably more land was given to the present holders than was at first open for sale. Still he had no doubt that the sale was more an error of judgment than anything else. It was matter for regret to him that the Government had not made a railway through it ; that would havo been a very profitable undertaking. Mr Stevens said the resolution appeared to him to be inoperative, in as much as the Government had pledged the country to the sale, and on that ground he would vote with the Ministers. Besides, nothing in the shape of undue influence, either by Mr Thomas Russell or the Loan Agenoy, had been shown. Mr Rees, at the conclusion of a long speech, '.asked Ministers to withdraw the resolution. If that was not done, and the Ministry tried to coerce the House, hp asked members to walk out in a body without voting, Mr Rowe alluded to the irrelevant character of the debate, and said he was well acquainted with the Piako Swamp, and he believed he had sailed over ten miles of it in a boat, again and again, long before the member for Bruce had seen it. Had there been the addition made to the area sold that had been alleged, he would have VQtpd against Ministers 5 but he h^d the assurance of the hon. member, whom he had known for 20 years, that no such addition had been made, and he would take his word before the plans, or anything that might be said by the member for Auckland East. The Swamp was utterly unfitted for any kind of settlement ■ on the contrary, it was eminently fitted for the employment of capital, and all those insinuations thrown out as to corruption against some who were present, and another who was not, were uncalled for,

Mr Nahi objected to the a ale, because it was the Maori law it should not be sold without the consent, of Tawhiao. He expressed the strong desire that the Government should see and confer with Tawhiao. Mr Macfarlane said, in reference to the sale of the coal land referred to by Sir G. Grey, that Mr Russell had nothing whatever to do with it. The whole thing was negotiated by himself while Mr Russell was in England. Mr Wakefield said he intended to support the resolution. He was strongly opposed to the alienation of the waste lands of the Crown in great blocks, but the Government having entered into this contract, the House had no other course than to endorse it. He confessed that when the debate commenced he was in a doubtful frame of mind. He naturally feared from the multitude of accusations that the transaction was dark. Having arrived at this period of the debate, he felt bound to say that he was convinced there was no corruption whatever. That there ; was at the most nothing more than a departmental mistake such as any Government might make. Mr Montgomery did not for a moment believe that the transaction could cast any stain upon the personal honor of Ministers. There was no doubt that, had the sale been made to one who was not a personal friend, there would have been no more about it. The Ministry were unfortunate in having sold te a personal friend. If the question before tho House was merely approval or disapproval of the transaction, he would vote for its disapproval, but the questien was one in which the honor of the country was concerned. They might either give a Crown grant or compensation. He would vote for the resolution. Mr Whitaker explained that, though the rules of the House permitted him to speak on the subject, ho would not vote. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to state that, though Mr Russell's name was used very frequently throughout the negotiation, he (Mr Whitaker) was the person Bolely responsible. It was he who wrote the letter, though Mr Russell Bigned it. He it was who dictated all the telegrams to the Ministers upon the matter. The land was taken up solely on the judg- . ment of Captain Steele, and the hurry there was due to Mr Russell's desire to proceed to England. To this day no man knew what the centre of the swamp was like. He had been many years in the Colony, and he never asked a favor from Ministers, and did not want to accept one. During the whole negotiations, he never had a single personal interview with Ministers. He could, up to 1868, have bought the whole of the Swamp at from ls 6d to 2s per acre. After that, regulations were passed providing that the land should be sold by auction ; but what was the price ? Why, any gentleman could go to the Land Office, make application, and the land would be sold to him. As to the cost of the draining, he was cashier, and he could inform them that there had been already expended £35,000, exclusive of what was paid the Government ; and only recently he had sent home to some shareholders there aeking for _1000 apiece. It was impossible, then, now to say how the speculation would turn out. He knew only that an immense amount would still be required to be spent, and that they proposed to sell such portions as they could reclaim and then to go on draining more. It was a mistake to say the roads were no good. There were three roads, some of them affording from 15 to 20 miles' travelling to settlers. Everything had been done that was required by the Government. He must inform the member for Bruce that he knew little or nothing about the land as a whole. At times when a great many immigrants were arriving in Auckland, the agents of the company employed all these, and as they left, more were obtained from Auckland. Another advantage was that Piako was notoriously a disaffected district, and the construction of these roads had had a benefioial effect. The original plans for the roads were altered on the recommendation of Mr James Mackay, and Ihe company gave way to the Government in everythingThere was scarcely anyone in the district who did not wish the Crown grant to be issued, and the works continued. In fact his election was largely due to his connection with the Piako Swamp Company. So far from the company getting more land than was originally bought, 9 hey had yielded up to the Native Minister about 2000 acres of the best land in the Swamp to satisfy the native claims. It was not an illlegal transaction, but perfeotly regular. No sale was made until the Order in Council had been made. Negotiations extending over some three years had been going on. He quoted from evidence before the Committee of last year, to show that merely negotiations were going on, apd there was nothing illegal in that. The purchasers possessed no olaim until the negotiations were validated by an Order in Council. He instanoed several i cases where matters were arranged by the I Government, and afterwards legalised. For j instance, the settlement of the New Zealand Company's claims ; and in 1846, when the then Governor Grey ordered wines for troops to be imported free., which was absolutely illegal, but which was subsequently validated by Act. He showed by various precedents that there was nothing illegal in the transactions connected with the Piako Swamp, and was afraid that the member for Auckland City West was more guided in this matter by personal than political feeling. He asserted positively that he personally was not in any way interested in a single acre of land purchased from the Natives. He thought Sir George Grey might have made himself acquainted with the facts of the oase before he made charges against, him in tbe House

which had not the slightest foundation in fact. He referred to the observation of Sir George Grey's, where he spoke of the corrupt minions Of Ministers, referring to himself and Mr Russell. Sir G. Grey denied having used the words. Mr Wbitaker concluded by saying that, with the exception of the question of Abolition, he came down here to work cordially with Sir G. Grey, but after the terms used by him he felt himself placed in antagonism to Sir George Grey. Mr Rolleston stated that he had not heard anything about the question which he did not know before, and certainly nothing to alter his conviction that a great wrong had been done, though he would not impute anything like fraud to any member of the Government. Still he did not intend to allow his vote to appear as in any way sanctioning this transaction. Mr Cox said that whatever might be the opinions of the people as to the legality of the Piako Swamp sale, the great majority of people in the district all agreed that, in the interests of the public, the works now in operation should be in the hands of people who were able to carry it out, and that when completed it could not but benefit the whole of Waikato. He believed Mr Russell was about the only man in Auckland who had the enterprise to face such an undertaking. It was a great pity the Colony had not more like him. On Mr Wason rising to speak, cries of " adjourn" were raised. He made a most emphatic protest against doing so. He considered the debate to be a gross waste of time, and would oppose the adjournment if he sat there till Sunday. He did not want to go into the Piako question at all ; the Government had put it out of the power of the House. He believed if the Native Minister had sold the laud for £5 an acre instead of 2s 6d, there would have been just the same row about it, the cause being that it was sold to private friends of the Government. After some discussion as to whether the House should adjourn, several wanting to continue the debate, The House adjourned at 2 5 a.m. till 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday.