THE TRAMWAY DIFFICULTY.

Auckland Star, Volume XXXVIII, Issue 176, 25 July 1907, Page 5

THE TRAMWAY DIFFICULTY.

,; *eu£STioir of "straphangers." V,"' DISCUSSED BY THE CITY r COUNCIL.

: a soeasl meeting of the Auckland tf£a Cotmal was held in the Council gfmbers this morning for the purpose f considering amendments to the City hUaws with tbe ob J ect of allowln S a of passengers to stand jn gadi tramcar. His Worship the Mayor (Mr. A. M. Hfrers) presided, and there were also S Messrs. W. E. Hutchison, A. J. C*Sn, L. J. Bagnall, H. M. Smeeton, ?Sope, P. M. ilackay, R. G. Knight, a Grey and Ite-Stopfoxd. The amendments in the

379 of the by-laws is hereby by the addition of tie folloiring *T to sSUffl (c) thereof namely: pl r£Sded Sat in the case ol tram cars vehicles propelled by motor or *?4r midrtnical power, the licensee shall, the propased licensee, specinumber of passengers tobTelrried in snch vehicle as in tte opmSi of the City Engineer such vehicle «n converiently carry, and the provisions JfsnteKtian (c) of Section 393 and Sub?L4on (b) of Section 401 of these Bylaws Sail not apply to such vehicle so long as 51i not carrying niore than the number of passengers specified in the license there-

(f) of Section 309 of the said Bjlaurs is hereby repealed, and in lieu tiereof ttte following is enacted namely:— (f) "When any passenger is entering or toring -sneh vehicle negligently or wilfully start or canse sack vehicle to be Started before sneh passenger is seated in or iipon such vehicle, unless such vehicle is a tram car or one propelled by motor cr other mechanical power, and is licensed to cairy more passengers tiuin the seating provided therein will accommodate, and tbsre is no seat then available therein for jach incoming passenger; or has alighted from the same, as the case may be. On. the motion of the Mayor it was decided to receive a deputation from the dockland Tramways Union of Jiknployees on the subject of the proposed bytar.

3lr. Eosser, secretary of the Union, introduced the deputation, which, consisted of P. Bockley (president of the Cnion), W. Kocklanda (vice-president), P. F. Schwarz and A. Holden.

W. Roeklands, moiorman and vicejreadent of the Union, said that? th<j lotoiman was equally responsible with fie conductor 'when the car left Queengeet for the number of people aboard. If there were room for one more, and a passenger got on at each end it would be impossible to say which was the last to get aboard, and trouble would arise. shen the motorman could! not go full speed up Wellesley-street if overcrowding Trere permitted because the conductor could not collect aH the fares in the short distance to be ran. Then at the other stopping places the conductor had the" Tesponsibility of any accident ■which, nright occoi through the ear starting too soon, bat being unable to see the rear of the car, had to rely on the ■motonnan. This put a strain on the motorman "when he had to give a signal ihough the responsibility lay -with the conductor. Then an increased number of passengers meant that more time ■was consumed in passengers getting up and down, and the time table "was quite fast enough already, so that it was not fair to the mm that the speed should be increased, especially as they 'were .Eaole to a charge of manslaughter in the event of accident. Then it was noS fair to the public, everybody being entitled to a seat. He had heard numerous arguments between passengers and conductors as to overcrowding.

P. -R Schwarz put the question from 8k conductors' point of view. He stated fiat the conductors were responsible foi , people getting on and off the ears. There were 48 stops pn the Onehunga line, and 45 minutes was allowed for each trip. The trip had to be done in that time, and if the conductors had to jpt to the rear platform at each stop to see that it was clear the trip could not he run in the time. Again, he could not see, when in the middle of the car, if the passages were filled with straphangers, bow many got on or off. They absolutely objected to anybody standing becasse it was a danger to the travelling gnHie. Continuing, Schwarz said that on one •occasion a lady was thrown off the back platform, and killed, the conductor, who tos in the<middle of a. crowded car, being enable to see what was happening. They conld accept no responsibility for accident nnless they had a clear view through tEe car" ana the blame must lie with the Council. They had the life and fcnbs of human beings to consider, and it was a ease either of increase of capital o?, ; perhaps, death and injury. He had travelled all over the world, and had never seen overcrowding like he saw in Auckland. It would be impossible to ■work the proposed by-law, and if any woe allowed to stand it would mean g°ng %> extremes, otherwise there would be fighting all the day, and, perhaps, half tie night.. -The service should be worked in such a way that the public can travel ■without danger to themselves or the "Seers-oi-the company. The Mayor: You have travelled a good deal!— Yes.

Are yon aware that an excess is usually aHwea,- almost equal to a third of the number of the seating accommodation? Scnwarz: I have repeatedly had to gS; oat" of -"buses in London because they wmld not allow mc to stand. I know £*y permit standing in the twopenny Jffle, but they do not"have to collect the Hresfhrthe cars.

■v- ~?Mayor: Your experience, I suppose, J^ Been mostly in Continental cities? a great extent. ■Mr Bagnall; Have you been in Wel™gtoh, Christchqirch,"lnvercargill and Xhffiedin?

Don't they allow standing in ears in 'tbose towns?

_ 1 have not noticed so much over-crowd-as has been permitted in Auckland, ■jo* that might be because, being a contoetor here, I notice it more. Jfo BagnaU- WeU, I have been in Dunf™_ when there were more people standthe cars than sitting. '±Bs Mayor: How long have you been a conductor here?

Since last March. It has been the practice to over-crowd **? J° - ihe fuUest extent ' bnt M « ie wmcfl hndts the number allowed to do you think it would be dangerous

- It- would not be dangerous, provided V* People did not stand in the wa7. The fataWe is, that it is impossible to'fix the Jar. Bagnall: People are standing betoe a ear starts even where stxapW gas are not allowed. jSygF" What «ar did you drive Mr-Schwarz: No. 47. & aS ht ' m ° te Were a V°™<* *° stand 'Ss ■ would ifc De dangerous?—

Mr. Bosser said there "were other conductors and mofconnen present, but he did not think they ocsild add anything, unless councillors -washed to question them.

The Mayor asked Mr. P. Buckley, presideat of the Union, if he thought thai eight people being allowed to stand in car No. 47 would be dangerous? Mr. Buckley said that people standing were a great danger, because if they wanted to. put on the back break, the man could not get througli the car. The Mayor: You have been on the ears four years?— Yes! Do you know of any aecidenst due to the cars being so crowded that the men. could not get to the back break? There was one at Eingslsnd, and an-* other at Barnell rise. Mr. Tudehope asked how many cars were in the barn at "crush-time," morning and evening? Mr. Buckley said there were often, cars in the baxn, but he cottLd not say whether they -were available for use if required, as they might be in for repairs. In answer to the Mayor, the City Traffic Inspector, Mr. Turner, said that last night there were 13 ears in the barn. The times taken were from aquarter to 5 until 6 o'clock. Mr. Tudehope: Do you think the Tram Company is running every available car at crush- time ? Mr. Turner: I am sure they are doing so at the present time. Are there sufficient cara then to take the people? Mr. Turner-;' I estimate that it ■will take 70 cars to carry the people between 5 and 6 o'clock. At this stage Mr. Walklate and Mr. Hansen were called into the room at the request of the Mayor. Addressing these gentlemen, Mr. Tadehope said that the City Traffic Inspector -was of opinion, that there were not sufficient cars. Mr. Walklate explained that no matter how many cars the company had there would be delay in getting them away from the terminus. Mr. Tudehope: "If 14 more cars were put on by the end of nest June, would that'meet the traffic?" Mr. i TValklate: "If -we bad the cars we couH not get them away from the termiirns." Dr. Stopfbrd: "I suppose the ■fcermiirae in Queen-street will only take a certain number of cars?" Mr. Walklate: "That is so!" Mr. Tudehope: "I notice you can remove 1500 people from the theatre ia ten minntes, and yet you cannot do the same at the foot of Queen-street, between five and sis o'clock." Mr. Walklate: "At the theatre you get your people <aH within ten minutes, and the cars are all waiting ready, but at the foot of Queen-street, each ear has to run to the terminus and change lines, which causes delay.." Dr. Stopford: At the theatre the line of ears is nearly three times as long as a± the foot of Queen-street. Mr W-aDdate: The delay is due to congestion of cars at the terminus. If certain cars were despatched from other places, say the foot of Wellesley-street, there is no doubt that half the people would leave from there, instead of increasing the crowd at the foot of Queenstreet.

The Mayor said a recommendation to that effect had already been approved hj

Mr Hansen: I applied for it some nine or ten weeks ago, but so- far the permission has not been granted.

Mr Bush (City Engineer) said Councillor Entericsn made the suggestion, and the matter was referred to the Finance Committee.

Mr Entrican said Mr Hansen promised the Council 12 months ago that he would put in a terminus opposite Tonson and Garliek's. Mr Entricas said 20 additional cars would .not cope with the difficulty in Queen-street at crush times. People had now to take a penny ride down Queen-street to get a seat. The result was that the cars went down full and increased the trouble at the terminus.

Mayor to Mr WalMate, Do you think it would be dangerous to allow a limited number on the cars, above those finding seating accommodation?

Mr Walklate: No, I do not. Dγ Stopford: Were you eveT a conductor?— No.

Then you really cannot answer that question.

The Mayor said that question had no right to be put to a general manager of tramways.

Mr. Rosser pointed out tliat they proposed an action almost without precedent in passing a by-larw to deal with circumstances which, were acknowledged to be the right thing, the prevention of overcrowding. Tie by-law meant that the men would have to serve two masters, because the outside local bodies had decided "to prohibit strap-hangers. That meant that on arriving at strap-hangers would have to be turned out. The men were determined to obey the by-laws, and chaos would result; On the Council would be the responsibility; they were putting themselves in a very peculiar position, especially as they desired a Greater Auckland. How could unanimity be expected when the Council took the action it proposed. The men had been called social purists, but the fact was that the strain was becoming almost unbearable, and since the alteration the men thought that they were working in Paradise. There had been less shortages, and the work had been much easier. It would be impossible to regulate the number if strap-hangers were allowed at all.

Mr. Entrican asked whether it was not a fact that in the Trades and Labour Council Mr. Rosser had advocated straphangers.

Mr. Hosser replied that that -was his private opinion from the humanitarian point of view, as differentiated from the days of the horse-cars. So long as the public -were •willing, there was no great cause of complaint, but it had grown to such a pitch that something had to be done.

The Mayor said that they had heard a pathetic tale from some of the speakers which must have touched them. They ■had to consider their responsibility to the public, and mnst consider the question as practical men, and come to a definite conclusion.

Mr Myers read a report from the engineer, in which he stated that he had gone carefully into the matter of the number to be allowed to stand, and recommended that in the case of the combination cars no straphangers be allowed, in the small cars 8, in the large ears 10 to 12, in the double deckers none except on wet days and none on top under any circumstances, and in the new longitudinally seated cars on the Heme Bay route 15. He had considered, not only the convenience of the : public and conductors, but also the power of the motors in arriving at these figures. The engineer had, Mr Myers continued, come to the conclusion that it would be advisable and safe to allow a certain number of cars to carry )j aad ,gOQ gft& .gas*

eengers would be able in crush times to find accommodation in addition to those The-company had been to blame in the past,-and was to blame for the present position, not having recognised their responsibility to the travelling public in providing "the neeessarv accommodation. The principal difficulty had been, not the insufficient number of cars so much as the insufficient number in For some time there had been an average of 15 or 20 ears in the barn undergoing repairs, but this had now been remedied. With these cars in repair, and the augmentation by the ■number required by the Council, nearly the whole of those desiring to travel, except at crush times, would be able to ■find seats. The great difficulty experienced by tramway systems the world over was to regulate the traffic at crush times, and, to enable the present service to carry an additional 500 passengers, this by-law was submitted. Mr Rosser said that it would result in chaos, owing to the decision of the suburban bodies, but it was the suburban passengers who would derive most benefit, as they would be able to take the seats of those who got out during the first section, and complete their journey in comparative comfort. The experience of England showed conclusively that almost the whole of the cities allow a certain number of standing passengers to be carried. The same position occurred in Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. Bsgarding their responsibility, it was unnecessary to say that they all recognised that, and if there were any danger that would, put an immediate end to the suggested by-law, but there was not. There was a feeling of irritation against the Tramway Company, and that would continue while the management was in London, and he had written to the chairman of directors suggesting the formation of a Tramway Board in Auckland to take over the affairs of the company, which, would be in the best interests of the shareholders and of the company, as well as of the public. The directors in London could not recognise the local requirements as readily as a local board could. The proposed was more particularly in the interests of the suburban bodies, and as such it should be passed. Present requirements of the city dwellers could, he believed, be met without straphangers, but he believed it -was their duty to pass the proposed by-law, the adoption lof which he moved.

Mr. L. J. Bagnall seconded, saving that the proposal was a reasonable "one. In Wellington and Dunedin he had seen more people standing than sitting, and glad of the opportunity. He sympathised with the motormen and conductors, but thought that they -were exaggerating their difficulties. It seemed ridiculous to prevent a man standin" , when he inconvenienced nobody but himself, and would rather stand in the car than on the street. It was making a mountain out of a molehill to talk of the danger, and to press it in the way it had been.

Mr. George Knight ntwed as an amendment that the whole question be referred back to the Finance and Legal Committee, thinking that trie whole thing had been precipitated, and had not been fully considered. Only a fortnight ago Mr. Bagnall had talked about calling in the police to assist the conductors to prevent overcrowding.

Mr. BagnaD: Not to prevent overcrowding, but to stop the crush of people getting into the cars, and regulate traffic to prevent a crush when entering the cars at the terminus:

Mr. Knight considered that this explanation did not improve the position. The question of overcrowding troubled the Council so much three weeks ago that Mr. Bagnall suggested that the police be called: in . That meeting had very likely caused the present crisis. It was their duty to conserve the life and limbs of passengers. The seating accommodation was the only index on which they would be justified in licensing the cars. The license for carrying over that number meant that the Council would assume the responsibility which really devolved on the company. If an accident occurred the conductors were unable to get through to the brakes because of standing passengers, and the Council, would be responsible. The service had been characterised by congestion all through, and if they passed the proposed resolution to relieve that congestion, they would be culpable. The Council should, in the past, have insisted on more cars being provided, and the Council would make the greatest mistake it had ever made if it removed the present limitation, ami would place themselves in a position to be sued in the event of action.

Mr. A. E. Glover seconded the amendment. He pointed out that while 19 ears were out of commission when the men came to their decision, all were in running order within a few days

The Mayor ,t§p.id that the motion would have to be confirmed in a month, and there was no harm in both resolutions being carried.

Mr B. Tudehope supported the amendment, and said that he was convinced that his former action in supporting the recommendation of the Finance Committee was a mistake. It would be a wrong to aEow that which they had for years been trying to do away with.

Dr. Stopford supported the amendment, believing that overcrowding was distinctly wrong. The men had assumed a responsibility which the Council should have taken.

Mr A. J. Entrican, while sympathising with the men, said that the CounclTs position was not between the company and the men. They had a duty to the travelling public, and it was their duty to amend the by-law to give the public an opportunity of getting home without .waiting an hour on the footpath. He pointed out that they had no tramway by-laws, and- that the by-law which they proposed to amend referred only to omnibuses and cabs, the cars being licensed as omnibuses, although the position of the two was very different. He intended to move a further amendment to the by-law to provide that in each compartment should be a statement of the number of passengers licensed to stand.

Mr H. M. Smeeton thonght that there was so much difference of opinion among the Council that Mr Knighf s amendment should be agreed to.

On being put to the vote, the amendment was carried on the casting vote of the chairman, Messrs Tudehope, Grey, Glover, Stopford, Smeeton, and Knight voting for it, and Messrs Farrell, Hutchison, Mackay, Entrican, Bagnall,' and the Mayor against.

There was some applause from the motormen and conductors present when the Mayor gave his easting vote to defer the matter, but this was immediately suppressed. The position now stands as before, and no straphangers are allowed.