THE ESTIMATES.

Auckland Star, Volume XIX, Issue 157, 4 July 1888, Page 2

THE ESTIMATES.

GOVERNMENT REVERSE.

THEIR DEFEAT.

FREE TRADERS WALK OUT OF

THE HOUSE.

THE SPEAKER DEFENDS HIS

PRIVILEGE,

(BY TELEGBAPH. — PARLIAMENTARY

REPO^TI-R).

Wellington, this day. The adjourned debate on the motion that the Speaker leave the chair, in order to go into Committee of Supply to consider the Estimates, and Mr Monk's amendment calling for a repeal of Acts fixing salaries in Legislative Audit Department; was resumed by Mr Seddon, who said he would reserve any remarks he might wish to make on the question until a later date.

Dr. Hodgkinson condemned raising of the tea tax for local subsidies and advocated the sale of the railways.

Mr Marchant justified the action of s section of the House in demanding further retrenchment to the extent of £100,000. The party had no means of bringing up the legislative salaries for revision, except by Act, and the object of the amendment was to enable Government to do this.

Mr Hutchison considered many of the 80-called savings were merely non-recurrent votes, and would not in tho ordinary course have appeared on this year's Estimates. Fully £72,000 could too saved, apart from the Railway Department, in which reductions could, he thought, be made to the extent of £30,000. Sir George Grey waa satisfied that Mt Monk's amendment ought to be adopted, but feared it would take a great deal of persuasion to induce the House to adopt it. The Legislative Department ought not to be favoured beyond other branches of the public service in being exempt from taxation. Persons had been appointed to the Government Life Insurance Department, who had not passed the Civil Service Examination, and he argued that at times, when officers of other branches wore being turned away, they ought to be given the choice of removal to the Insurance Department in preference to the persons whom he alluded to. The House did not require a highly paid Chairman qf Committees, formembers ought *o undertake the duties in turn. He advocated the appointment of Parliamentary Under-Secretary, who, with an efficient chief clerk under him, would bo able to conduct the service much better than under the present system. Government ought to permit his Law Practitioners' Bill so that the legal profession might be open to all discharged Civil servants. Much of the tuition now given in schools waa of a kind which was useless to children in -after life, and he thought some kind of technical instruction ought to be given in primary schools. In conclusion, he hoped he had said enough to assist the passage of Mr Monk's amendment.

The amendment, "That in the opinion of the House, it is desirable that Government should introduce, and, if possible, pass this session a Bill to repeal or amend the Legislative Officers' Salaries Act, 1867, and Public Revenues Act. 1.378," was then put and lost by 52 to 21. Discussing the original inot-O!.,Mr Scobie Mackenzie said that tbo .reei/raders recog-" nising that question at the fcira© was simply one between the Government and their protectionist supporter* in which they, the freetraders, were not; concerned and Would "not regard it as incuTflbeu. upon them to Toto on the question. Mr Hobbs hofied thai. Government would, during the recess, consider the kind Of retrenchment indicated in, Mr■_.-_ Monk's amendment.

Sir George Grey said ho would again divide the House on the question, m h* considered it to ba unfair to civil servant* and a bad example to the country. Mr Scobie Mackenzie said that there was no principle involved in the dispute between theGovernmentand Protectionist*, thequestion being simply whether the House should go on with the Estimates or give preference to the Customs Duties Bill, which was already almost law aa far as the House was concerned. The Freetraders did not care a brass farthing which came on first, and would therefore exercise their right of not voting, but if an opportunity were given them of relieving the country of what they oonsided a disastrous measure of protection, they would know which lobby to walk into, even though it involved th© defeat of the Government.

Mr W. P. Reeves said Mr Scobie Mackenzie, who was tiie author of the celebrated sayinir abou. ".Keeping a Government in and their measures out," was prepared to keep a Government in taking himself out. He had on Friday voted against Government but he would now support them as he now understood their proposals regarding business arrangements, which he did not then, but he denied the reports that •he had given Government any pledge of oontinued support. Mr Moss condemned the attitude of the Premier on Friday which seemed to indicate that he thought he was indispensable to the country. Mr Menteath taunted Mr Reeves with inconsistency, and said that if he and his friends had not given a pledge they probably had an understanding with Government. Dr. Fitchett said that Friday's division Iras a surprise to the protectionists. They thought Government intended to use the Bill as a whip with which to force through $ho Estimates, but they were now satisfied •uch was not the case. They intended to now support the Government. Mr Allen said -Mr Reevee had sttsed on .Friday that protectionists had their price, audit appeared that as it had been paid the misunderstanding had been removed. It was evident that they had been iii communication with Government, and that gome arrangement had been made. Mr Seddon said, he found that the Premier had granted ono thing that he (Mr. Seddon) had been fighting for, because he had consented to amotion which was to be tabled, affiming the desirability of making further reduction during the recess to the extent of £100,000. Thus it appeared that the division of Friday night was a complete victory for those who advocated further economies. . -77.-} Mr Tanner, though he claimed to be a Sfcaunnh'freetrader, said thathsfor one would not walk out of the 'House when the question was put. He would support the Government. Mr McKenzie should have said that he spoke for only a section of the freetraders, namely, the secede" from the Government., . . ~.--.. •-.. _. Captain Russell justified his intention of walking out of the House when the question was pat, The Premier had laid doxrn » direct challenge to the House threatening to consider hi* position, and free-traders felt called upw $«Mw *&sss& power to defeat the .Cttstoma Dntws Bill No Government was ind&penßable. For his own partie.would; if necessary, go on upsetting Government after, Goveroawutj with the idea of making administration impossible until the question way, ffl__m£P ■ *P the country, viich he was .sure M decide in favour of free-trade. (Cries of "No ") It was almost unconstitutional to bring down Bueh a tariff wlthbßt #<)*<»• Tho free-fcradera could hot vote tow optho. ta^;'^a therefeetb^ wo^d^ t£rs,m#m#, ',asw W&___W£ gtoand they eonldtake ap,a»euMr ,4b anas

impossible to resist an overwhelming majority of the House, though that majority was acting contrary to the wishes of the Country. Th. Premier said that Captain Russell's speech was extraordinary and illosrical, in view of the action he contemplated. When there was some chance of doing what they professed to want, they, as free-traders, ]proposed to walk out of the House. Their position was weak and utterly absurd. They were going to do every thine; they could, yet that "everything" meant simply walking out of the House. As to Mr Seddon no member wasted more time than he, and the Customs Duties Bill might now be law but for his action. He. would be glad to .accept any assistance to carry out retrenchment when in committee —that is, any reductions within reason. They were even more anxious than hon. members to economise, because they knew the need for it. They had never professed to have finished retrenchment, but wore still going on with it. If some progress were made with the Estimates they would probably bring up ths Customs Duties Bill next day, and finally dispose of it. Nobody could be more anxious than they to get rid of the measure. He asked the freetraders to give him credit for the belief that he was acting in what he considered to be. the interest of the country. He denied that there was any bargain with the protectionist*, or that they had made any approach to the Government. The Government as well as themselves would have been degraded had any offer been made. Tnej wanted to see a strong Government on the Benches, and they wished the matter to be brought to an issue as soon as possible in order to decide whether the Government was not to be rejected. It waa only tha unfair conduct of certain members which made the Government take up such a position on Friday. Even now the Bill was not ready to be finally dealt with. Mr Monk's motion was objectionable because it was too vague and indefinite, and did not specify the reforms. Speaking to the question whether the Chairman of Committees should not be dispensed with altogether, he thought the phair could well be filled from a rota; still tho idea required more mature consideration, and it would be unwise to rush into an experiment for the sake of saving two or three hundred pounds. The motion to go into Committee of Supply was carried by 59 to 4. The House then went i»to Committee. Class 1. Legislation, £14,955. Mr Hutchison wished to review the item of £25,000 set down forpensions, compensation and gratuities under special Acts of Legislature, contending that that item was not authorised by the Act Which purported to do so. The Chairman, however, ruled him out of order. Sir Maurice O'Rorke called attention to an innovation which had been made this year which was unconstitutional and without warrant. The Executive, for the first time since he had known the Houee, had taken upon themselves to regulate salaries of legislative officers without any reference to the Speaker. If this concerned only the Speaker, he would probably bo contented to pus it over in silence, but it was a matter which also concerned the House, which had always kept in its own hands the right of fixing its officers' salaries, which power was sought to be taken away. It was, he believed, only preparatory to a second step, namely, that of making the officers of the House officers of the Executive. He was glad to be able to appeal to members at a time when party feeling was put aside, and ask them not to yield up their rights which were secured to them by great difficulty 11 years ago. lb would bo a very sorry day for the House when its officers had to look to one or another Executive either for their promotion or their increase of pay. As the oldest member of the House, the question concerned him less than anybody cl"c whether officers wer.e or were not to be allowed to becomepoliticalpartisans. Hitherto I they. :hkd< hot been so, and he was surprised that tho movement should be promoted by a gentleman of such long experience in the House, and one who had been so long oonnected with the history of New Zea land. Proceeding with his speech under influence of strong emotion, Sir Maurice said that he and the Premier entered the House together,ind tho latter must know of the difficulties under which a. former Speaker, Sir David Munro, had contended with the Fox and Stafford Ministries to secure for the House the independence of legislative officers. Fault had been found with an appointment which he had made, but he pointed out that he had only chosen thoSergeant-at-Annsof whose qualifications the House could judge, and when the late Parliamentary reader retired from the House notwithstanding his eridearours to the contrary, and after remaining for twelve months ati his (the Speaker's) personal request, he, in order to introduce his son to a knowledge of public business, had placed him in the position at a f educed salary of £150, though the House laet year voted a larger salary. These appointments, the only ones within ten years, did not warrant the aspersions which had been levelled against them. He did nob ask for himself the right of fixing salaries, but he claimed that the Houbo should "do so. All would feel that the House was higher than Executives, who were mere creations of to-day, and could be made or unmade at the will of the House; but he asked the House to assert its own independence and that of its officers. He had no proposition to make m«t now, but he would hear whether members sympathised with the view he took, and afterwards endeavour to bring back the House to the position won for it by his predecfi-Morßin office. Mr Seddon thought the position of reader to which the Speaker had appointed his son, was unnecessary and apoke strongly against the Speaker's contention. The Premier promised that an opportunity should .be given to take the feeling of the Committee relative to this matter. Apart from party considerations, there had long been a difficulty because the estimates were only nominally under the oharge of Government, and it was thought undesirable that the Speaker should appear on the floor of the House and defend particular votes. Consequently the Government had decided on this change. Mr Peacock approved of the action of the Government, and Mr Moss viewed their action with alarm and denounced it, It was unconstitutional.

Sir John Hall said it was very undesirable that officers of the House should have to look for their B,alarie!3 to ( the Government which happened to be in poAver. They should notnave to look at one side of the Houseor the other.

Progress was reported on the motion of the Premier, and the committal of the estimates was made a second order of the day for Wednesday, the Customs duties being first.