THE FINANCIAL DEBATE.

Auckland Star, Volume XIX, Issue 139, 13 June 1888, Page 2

THE FINANCIAL DEBATE.

GOVERNMENT VICTORY BY 53 TO 29,

(BY TELEGRAPH—OWN KEPORTEK.)

Wellington, this day.

Contrary to anticipation, no one spoke yesterday afternoon on the motion for the second reading of the Customs Duties Bill, and a division was taken, with the following

result: —

Ayes, 53. Atkinson . Whrey BallanceHHe?^ c?° r Blake Mitchelson Buxbon Mrat. Cadman Monk Dodson Moss Feldwick OCallaghan Fergus O'Connor Fisher Perceval Fish p yke „ , . •Fitchett Reeves (Inangahua Fitzherbert Beeves (St. Albana) Eraser Richardson (Kaiapoi) Goldie Richardson (Mataura) Grey Samuel Guinness Seddon Hislop Seymour Hobbs Steward Hodgkinson Stewart Hutchison Tanner Jackson Taylor j ones Thompson (Marsden) K err Thompson (Auckland Lance North) Larnach Turnbull Lawry Walker Levestam Ward Noes, 29. AU en McKenzie (Clutha) Anderson Marchant Barron Mmss Beetham Newman Bruce Ormond Buchanan Parata Carroll Peacock Cowan ■• , Rhodes Duncan Rosa Fulton .Smith Grimmond Taipua Hamlin Taiwhanga Izard Wilson Macarthur Wibhy Mackenzie (Mt. Ida) pairs :— tor ; against : Hall Whyte Brown Menteath

The Premier then moved that the Bill be committed forthwith. Mr Beetham objected to the immediate committal of the Bill, as many hon. members had been taken by surprise. He had intended to move that "In the present position of the colony it was inadvisable to go into committee on the Bill until the Government had an opportunity of considering whether further reductions could not be made in the public expenditure." Mr Peacock said that as the House had affirmed the principle of the Bill by passing its second reading1, he would not offer any factious opposition to its subsequent stages. Mr Levestam complained that he was taken by surprise, because during the hum and noise of the proceedings he had not been aware thab a division was being taken.

Mr Seddon said he had given his vote deliberately, in order to hasten the decision of the question, reserving to himself the right to propose amendments in committee.

Mr Mills had also been taken by surprise, but he hoped to have another opportunity of stating why he had opposed the Bill, and giving the reason why He considered that the additional duties were not necessary.

Colonel Fraser said he had purposely refrained fromspeaking, becausehe considered that the country would benefit more by the saving of time than by the lob of twaddle which had been talked.

Mr Macarthur thought it very remarkable that not a single Minister had risen to defend the policy of the Government. The fcwo Ministers who had spoken had confined fchemselyes to "slating" their opponents, and the Premier had introduced the Bill With half-a-dozen words, and had nob spoken fn reply. This was all the more strange seeing that the Ministry had been put into office by a party of free traders (" Oh !"), or their strongest adherents were free traders. Mr Buchanan hoped that the Premier would agree to the postponement of the committal.

Mr R, H. Reeves urged the Premier to p«sh the Bill forward as quickly as possible in order to settle such an important question. Mr Blafee said he had asked Mr McGregor in the lobbies just before the division was taken as to what he intended to do. Mr McGregor simply winked one eye and pointed with his finger over his shoulder. (Laughter.) This he took to indicate that somebody was likely to be sold. (Renewed laughter.) Mr Bruce thought the Premier should have more consideration for those free traders who had. hitherto followed him through good and'evil report. In defence of Mr McGregor, he said that gentleman had told him that he did not intend to speak, and that if he (Mr Bruce) intended to do so he had better take the opportunity. Mr Scobie Mackenzie protested against the Bill being carried through two stages at one sitting on the mere assertion of the Premier that it was an urgent measure, seeing that the Premier himself had shown that he did not deem it urgent because he had interrupted it in order to allow the Midland Railway question to be considered. He moved as an amendment that the words " Friday next" be substituted for " forthwith." Dr. Newman twitted the Government with having so far asked the House to pass as a matter of urgency every measure which 'they had brought forward. He believed that reductions nearly equivalent to the extra taxation proposed could yet be saved by economising our mail service expenditure, and in other ways. Believing, as he did, that the people could not afford the crushing imposts, he thought the Bill should be further delayed until the Government had an opportunity of considering these questions. Sir G. Grey was of a similar opinion, and said he had hitherto supported the Bill. In desiring its postponement, he was not anxious to embarrass the Government in any way. Mr Monk was not yob satisfied as to the necessity for extra taxation to the extent -proposed. In his opinion about £25,000 could be saved from defence expenditure, and from £50,000 to £80,000 by reform in the railway management. The Premier expressed astonishment at the attitude of the so-called free traders, who had practically said that only they knew what was good for the country. .Members'minds had been saturated withthequestion for the last ten days, and he could see no advantage to be gained by postponing the committal of the Bill. The majority of the Blouse had already declared in division on Mr Ormond's motion that they would not consider whether certain services be dispensed with, and he supposed that if a vote were again taken the result would be the same. If the dissatisfied gentlemen were anxious to move a no - confidence motion, the Government would willingly accept it. For his own part he would readily resign his charge to those gentlemen, if any of them were capable of dealing with the situation. The motion for the immediate, committal ,pf th^e Bill was. agreed to on. the. voices. , Tna %eiaier fcfifin tnoyeel that thp Speaker '•®ave the chair in order that the House

might go into committee. In the matter of the tariff, it was impossible to have made inquiries beforehand as fully as could have been desired, bub since ib had been placed before the House, he had received from all parts of the country telegrams approving of fche new duties, from free traders as well as protectionists, for they recognised that there was no question of free trade or protection in the tariff at all. (Cheers.) This, it would be seen, was not the position taken up by the so-called free traders in the House. Scientific finance on the basis of free trade was impossible, and he had already told the House and his constituents that ib was of no use to argue upon theory, bub they must go into committee and on the pros and cons take each article and decide upon the duty to be placed upon ib. The Cabinet was composed of a majority of free traders—gentlemen who had been so before many of the opponents of the Bill were born, and who had stuck to their colours through thick and thin, nob only as theorists, bub as practical men of business used to the Government of the country. These gentlemen still nailed their colours to the mast. The position of the Government was quite clear and emphatic. They were going to insist upon having sufficient revenue for carrying on the affairs of the country. They would be happy to receive in committee any .suggestion from either freetraders or protectionists, bub would nob permit the tariff to be torn to pieces by either party. Burdens would be removed from industry as far as possible, bub the Government were determined that their tariff should bo carried as a whole. Mr J. B. Whyte accused the Government of having defeated Mr Ormond's amendment for considering the question of services before voting the Bill, and of not having sufficiently led the House in the debate. Mr Levestam discussed the Bill from the protectionists' standpoint. He suggested that lire brigade implements should be admitted free, and mentioned the manufacture of straw hate as an industry that might well be encouraged by protection. At the evening sitting Mr Ward congratulated the Ministry on the amount of saving they had effected, but he would not altogether agree with their tariff. The property tax should certainly not be raised, for, as it was, ib kept British capital out of the colony. He hoped at no distant date to see it replaced by an income tax, and any difference in revenue made up by indirect taxation. He approved of the abolition of the Crown and Native Lands Hating Acb, but not of raising the school age, and thought endowments of secondary schools should be appropriated to the purpose of primary education. All subsidies to seaborne mails should be abolished, and a payment for mails ab so much per pound substituted. An ad valorem duty on tea would be preferable to a lixed rate. Tho volunteer vote might well be allotted bo better advantage, and the force was over-officered ; and he regretted bo see the capitation allowance reduced. In conclusion, he hoped that .the Bill would bo found to be of advantage to the colony, and that we would soon see general prosperity restored.

Mr Bruce thought that in view of the peculiar complications of party lines on the floor of the House, parties ought lo bo completely reconstructed. Tho Government were entitled to credit for their retrenchment proposals. A manly attempt must be made to grapple with the colony's financial difficulties, and in order to do so it will be necessary to make some self-sacrifice. With reference to his severance from the Government party, he explained that when the Premier had agreed to accept the leadership of the party/he (tho speaker) and others had agreed to support him until he brought down^his policy. That policy had been brought down, and it did not suitfree traders, but there was no reason on that account for recrimination on either side. Elected as an uncompromising free trader, he was of course opposed to any taxation on the necessaries ofc life, and when he saw the ultraprotectionists support the tariff, that was, he thought, ample reason to make him cautious. Like Mr Withy, however, while opposing the tariff he had to acknowledge that lie knew of no alternative proposal to make, but he had an instinctive belief that some alternative existed. Subsidies to local bodies ought to be abolished, and the bodies left to take advantage of the Loans to Local Bodies Act. For years the colony had been gradually drifting towards protection, and now we had a tariff which was only one step from absolute protection. The effect was that vested interests would be created, and increased duties would yet be demanded, and this was the reason why he had left the Government. In conclusion, he said he parted from the Government more in sorrow than in anger. . Dr. Fitehett said that, like many other members who had spoken in the debate, he had been a free trader, but was nowa protectionist. If free traders had the courage of their opinions they would abolish the Customs altogether. He contended that he had heard nooning whatever either in the abstract or concrete to prevent the proposed tariff becoming the law of the land, and he hoped it would be.

Mr Beethain, at 11.55 p.m., moved the adjournment of the debate till the following day, but in deference to the views of several hon. members,.he proceeded with his speech. He said the amendment which he intended to move was not to be regarded as one hostile to the Government, but merely as an expression of the opinion of the free traders. The Government had not used all the means at their disposal for economising before imposing the tariff. If Mr Ormond's resolutions had been taken separately the necessity for his present action would have been obviated. For the last twelve sessions he had followed the Premier and had found him to be a good and willine1 leader, but he now felfc it his duty to protest strongly against the tariff proposals. He was not a rabid free trader, as his past action had shown, but he believed the principle of free trade should be carried out as far as possible, and he had as yet heard no argument which could cause him to alter his fixed convictions. Asanalternativetothe protective duties, which he condemned, he would propose to carry out rigid economy, and the raising of the school age to six should have been a cardinal point in the Government policy. School buildings should be erected out of loan as heretofore, and under certain circumstances he would not object to the discontinuance of local subsidies, but whilo the burdens fell so heavily upon real estate he did not think they should be abolished. With regard to retrenchment, lie did not desire the discharge of, or reduction of, more officers. That had already been carried to a sufficient extent, except in the case of the Railway Department, where judicious pruning could bring about savings of between £20,000 and £40,000. The San Francisco mail subsidies ought to be abolished, and he believed that the service was so important to Americans that they would keep it on without subsidies. Without being an alarmist, he deprecated any too serious relaxation in the maintenance of the defence provision, and hoped the volunteers wou'd receive due consideration at the hands of the Government. He intended to move, '"That it is desirable to delay the committal of the Customs Duties Bill, so as to enable the Government to have another opportunity of considering whether • the necessity for a portion of the taxation mierht not be obviated by further retrenchment." The Premier had invited the House to consider the Bill without regard to party lines, and he would like his amendment to be discussed in the same spirit. The free trade party were actuated by anxiety, for the'welfare of the colony and the desire for true .economy, They considered that tfie &oyernnjie.nt haj gone further than, qiflounv stances justified, and though they,couldnot

expect to accomplish thorough free trade, they would approximate it as nearly as possible. Mr Barron seconded the amendment. Mr Rhodes moved the adjournment of the House until 2.30 next day. Mr R H. Reeves ura'ed that the division on the amendment should be taken without debate. The Premier said he was willing to do

so. Mr Seddon asked what position the Government intended to take with regard to the amendment. • The Premier : As soon as the House has voted upon it I'll tell the hon. gentleman. Mr Seddon said he took that to mean that the Premier would treat the amendment as one of no-confidence. If so, although he had supported the second reading of the Bill, he would not be dragged at the Premier's chariot wheels. He wished it understood that if the question was one of no-confidence, he, like the Irishman ab New York, was "agin the Government." The motion for adjournment was agreed to, and tho House rose at 12.40 a.m.