NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

Anglo-Maori Warder, Volume 1, Issue 10, 27 June 1848, Page 1

NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

House of Commons, February 9, 1848. Mr. Labouchere moved that the order of the day for going into committee upon this bill be read. The Earl of Lincoln was most unwilling to make any appeal to the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade which might appear to him to indicate r. wish on his (the Earl of Lincoln's) part to Impede the progress of public business, but be really must ask the right hon. gentleman whether he would think it 'fen to proceed with this discussion at the presen ™„™™J The rieht hon. gentleman would recollect S "."reum,Tances g unde?whlh the bill had reached the mescnt stage. The right hro. gentleman appealed to it adjourned for the Christmas recess, to permit the second reading >o he taken, P™ m '»' n S that an opportunity for discussion should bei given_ou the question of the home gome into committee. The "oJe bad uow met to discuss this bill on a Wednesday, a very unusual proceeding in regard to a measure of so mod. importance. As an authority m support of his he might refer to the argument usedl buta short lime ago by the right hon. gentleman ho Secretary for the Home Department, who appealed to the hoi ImlKir for Stroud (Mr with the discussion upon which he was about to.enter, nnonVhe ground thaZas the business fixed for the day was Ihe New Zealand Government Bill, the First Lord or the Treasury nnd other members of the Government would be absent. That was almost always the.ease, on Wednesdays; but, as the Under Secretary of the Colonies fMr Hawes) was unfortunately unable to be present, the house had au additional claim upon the attendance of other members of the Government when a measnre like ih«t before Ihe house was about to be brouaht under discussion. He had no doubt that the right hon. geatMuan the President of the Board of Trade had given all the attention he could to the subject, but it must not be forgotten that the noble lord at the head of Ihe Government had Hied the office of Secretary of Slate for the Colonies, and was, therefore, capable of affording much valuable information to Ihe house. If the Irish Poor Law was an impropel subject for discussion in the absence of the noble lord the First Lord of the Treasury, he must saj-that he tlioit'-bt an alteration in the constitution of New Zealand must lead to a discussion which would require, at least in an equal degree, the presence of Ihe noble lord. These subjects were last commented Upon in 1845, and nine nislits of the session were consumed in debates upon «■? concition of New Z aland. He believed that the condition of that colony was as critical now as it was then, and although this was not Ihe proper time to debate the question whether the constitution which had been given to New Zealand wjs a proper constitation or not, yet it mnst be remembered that the presr-nt bill proposed a suspension of that constitution, and this was a question which he thought ought to be gravely aud seriously discussed. But did the tight Sin. gentleman think that a subject which had engaged the attention of the housa for nine nights in 1845 could be seiiously discussed in three hours ? He felt certain that the right hon. gentleman would have a better chauce of accomplishing hia objret by taking some Government night for the hill, and allowing its discussion to coma on at five o'clock. If the right hon. gentleman persevered now, he was confident that the house would not get into committee, but that a preliminary discussion wonld arise which wonld be trrmioatcd by the adjournment of the honse, at six o'clock, a 'd which was sure to be renewed whenever the I)- 1 ! again came before the house. Mr. Labouchere said he was in hopes, from the tone which bad prevailed when the question was last before Ihe house, that there was but little diversity of opinion upon the subject among hon. gentlemen opposite. He certainly bad understood that with regard to the necessity of suspending the constitution of New Zealand, after the strong recommendations to that effect from Governor Grey, there was very little difference of sentiment upon that question. Supposing, therefore, that the principle of the bill was agreed to, he thought that the committee was a proper stage for entering into this discussion. From woat had taken place, therefore, on the second reading, wbicb did not pass altogeJ tber sub silcnlio, as the noble lord seemed to suppose, £ he was justified in supposing that the committee was A a mure proper opportunity for taking the discussion than the second reading itself. The noble lord asked him to postpone the committee. He was sure that be need not tell the noble lord, after his official experience, af the extreme and increasing difficulty which the Go* vemmc it of this country found in bringing forward lor the discussion and decision of the House of Commons those important questions which it was their duty to lay before Parliament. The Government had only twu nighiß in the week for the disenssion of measures originating with themselves, and those nights were frequently broken in ui on from other quarters, and it was almost impossible, without taking advantage of every opportunity which presented itself, for the Government to obtain time for the consideration of those measures which the country demanded, and which the Government would be censured for not bringing forward. He could not, therefore, agree with the noble lord in thinking that Wcenesdaj, although devoted in the first instance to measures unrated to private members of Parliament, might not also be justifiably occupied in discusß ng any Government bill which might be before the house. Upon these grounds he hoped the noble lord would excuse bim for not complying with his request, aud would not impute it to any disrespect tor him, if he expressed a hope that the house would go into the consideration of this bill in commit, tee, where he should be quite ready to consider any objections that might be urged against it. Mr. Gladstone said, that after the strong opinion which the right lion, gcnttainan had expressed, he would not revive ihe question raised by his noble friend with respect to the iiiconvenicuce of a discussion of this uatuie at :bc present uwmtut. He would proceed,

therefore, to consider ihe positive enactments of thobill itself, and another collateral question, which, though not directly embraced within the provisions of the bill, was ot the same time of such vital importance to New Zealand, that it was impossible to pass any stago of a constitutional measure of this kind without taking a view of it. With regard to the provisions of the bill, he considered them as consisting in part of suspending, and in part of enaoting provisions. With respect to the enacting provisions of the bill, though they were of an unusual character, both in form and degree, yet upon the whole they corresponded wiih the demands which Governor Grey had made, and therefore he thought that they perhaps would do better by passing these provisions in substance, than by adopting any other plan which could be suggested. But when he came to the suspending provisions of the bill, he could not help feeling a wish to put a question to the right hon. gentleman, upon which he thought he had some claim fo explanation. He did not understand why the constitu.ion of 1846 should be suspended for a term of five years rather than be repealed altogether. He quite understood why, under ordinary circumstances, when the Legislature was about to suspend the action of a law which was in existence and opeiation, they shoud fix a period when its suspension should cease, and its operation be renewed; because, when the special cause for its BUipension ia determined, there was no reason why the law should not again revive in full foice and vigour. But the bouse was not abont to discuss the provisions of a constitution which was now in existence, or which had ever existed. The New Zealand Constitution of 1846 waa a mere It had never found its way into actual life, and was known to the people of New Zealand only as a matter of theoretical and specuhuivedjscuasion. How for publicbp'oiunHhTTvewZeaTancThadbeen expressed -u its favour, sufficient for the house to presume that this was ihe most advisable form of cons'itution for that country, ho did not know. He did not know whether they had at present any evidence that this constitution, and no other, was the constitution which they were called upon, not to revive, but to establish, in the year 1848. It appeared to him, therefore, that suspension was an ineonven'ent mode of fettering the future judgment of the house. He thought that the simplest, the wisest, and the most practical course, would be to say that the lime had not airived when it was proper to grant this constitution, and therefore that it ought to be repealed ; and that while ihe house contemplated giving at a future time a constitution to New Zealand, which should give a new scope to popular principles, ibey were prepared to uo. Dei take such a talk when, from the experience affjrded them by time, they were enabled to assent to a constitution which should have real life and operation. He hoped that in the course of this discussion they would have these matters, which were matters of publ'c con» venience, fully examined. But he could not pass by this stage of the present Bill without adverting to a question of the utmost practical importance to the social welfare of New Zealand, aud, it might be, of its peace aud tranquillity. He referred to the claim on the part of *he Natives to land in that country—a question which so entirely lay at the root of every discussion connected with New Zealand, that the House would in vain adopt the wriest and most skilful measures with regard to constitutional principles, unless they took cai e that they followed a wise and safe course in regard to that fundamental matter. It would be against the first principles of humauily, and not on'y detrimental to the peace of the colony but thß happiness of its population, if they allowed any object to interfere with the proper settlement of that question. He wished, therefore, to state frankly to the Government, in the person of the right honorable gentleman, the difficulties which occurred to his (Mr. Gladstone's) mind in regard to it. He did not wish to commit himself finally to any positive opinion, because no man was more anxi" ous to feel satisfied that the views of the noble lord at the head of the Colonial department in regard to th s question, were views calculated to promote the peace and welfare of the islands of New Zealand. He thought there could be no doubt as to what had been the understood construction of the treaty—whether fortunate or unfortunate in the first instance be would not enquire—of Waitangi, which was conceived to regulate the disposal of public lands in New Zealand, so far as regarded the claims of the Natives to land, h was well known that the Natives had occupied a certain portion of the fertile lends of those islandß, which they had improved by their labor. It was well known that the Natives might be said to occupy another, and a much larger, portion of the lauds of the island, which, however, they had not improved by labor, but which they used for pnrpoies connected with the feeding of cattle, the pasturing of wild pigs, &c. These were not lands improved by cultivation, but were used by the Natives in a manner somewhat beneficial to themselves, though certainly in a way very adverse to the principles of puiitical economy. Now, when the treaty of Waitangi was concluded, it was universally understood that the titles'of Ihe Natives were to be recognized, under that treaty, not only to the lands they had occupied and improved Jby labor, bnt likewise to those lauds from which they derived a beneficial use in the manner he had described, eveu though that particular use waß very slight indeed compared with what they derived from the land which was uuder cultivation. Governor Grey gave a very simple aud just description of the footing on which this matter ought to stand, in a despatch received from him in the month of December last. He said—- " The position I understand to be adopted by the New Zealand Compauy's agent, tint, if tracts of land ate not ia actual occupation, and cultivation by Natives, we have therefore a right to take possession of them, appears to me to require one important limitation. The Natives do not support themselves solely by cultivation, but from fern root, from fishing, from eel pond", from taking ducks, from bunting wild pigs (for which they tquire extensive runs), and by such like pui suits. To deprive them of their wild lauds, and to limit tbem to laudi lot the purpose 01 culUYiiiiou, it, ia fact, to cut

off from them some of their most important means of subsistence." This view of Governor Grey had been, he might say, univeiaslly understood by all who had considered the treaty. He would now frankly state the point to which his anxiety was chiefly directed. He wished to be assured that the despatch of lord Grey, dated the 23rd of December, 1846, and the instructions appended to that despatch, so far as regarded the public lands, were in conforrnKy «itb. that treaty. He tbouehtgood faith towards the Natives required that tbey should be. (Hear, hear 1) The House shot-Id hear in mind that the na'ives of New Zealand did not judge of this matter by the terms of the treaty, but by the interpretation put upon those terms by all the persous in New Zealand occupying places of authority—and it followed, therefore, if good faith was to be maintainedwithtbam, lhat lhatconstiueiion should be adhered to. Hewished to see this course fo'lowed, o'so, because he was convinced thnt the peace of the islend was involved in the question. He referred to the despatch of Lord Grey, in order that it might be fully understood on what his doubts and apprehensions were founded. In a despatch which was printed among the papers preseuted in August, 1816, Lord Grey spoke of the pretensions put forth by certain tribes to large tracts of waste land, which they " hid been taught" to regard as their own. He said— ... i- * • " It appears thai you have found it expedient to admit these pretensions to a considerable extent; and, having done so, no apparent advantage could be suffered to weigh against the evil of acting in a manner either really or even apparently inconsistent withgood faith. While, however, you scrupulously fulfil what ever engagement you have contracted, and maintain those rights on the part of the native tribes to land which you have already recognised, you nil! avoid as much as possible any further su-render of the property of the Crown.'" Then, in the instructions appended to that despatch " No claim shall be adm'lted in Ihe said land courts on behalf of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand to any lands situate within the said islands, unless il shall be established to the satisfaction of such courts that cither by some act of the executive government of New Zealand, as hitherto constituted, or b; the adjudication of some court of competent jurisdiction within New Zealand, the right of such aboriginal inhabitants to such lauds bas been acknowledged nnd ascertained, or that the claimants or their progenitors, or those from whom they derived title, have actually bad occupation of the lrnds so claimed, and have accustomed to use and enjoy the same, either as places of abode or for tillage, or for the growth of crops, o: for the de pasturing of cattle, or otherwise for the convenience and sußtentation of life, by means of labour expended thereupon." Now, his doubts and difficulties rested chiefly upon the point that the instructions of Lord Grey appeared to confine tho titles of the na"ve tribes to cases in which it could be said of land that it had been improved " by laboor expended thereupon," and did nut extend to lands which natives app'ied in other ways to their own purposes and to their benefit. Now, he had shown lhat by the construction hitherto put upon the treaty, they weie not justified in impusing such a limi. tation ; but, if he understood arieht the view taken by Lord Grey, in the instructions he had just read, the courts of New Zetland would be f jlbidden giving titles to any land except such as had been improved by labour. 'lbis was a very important matter; for, as respected the greater part of the northern colony, there was but little land likely to be aveUable for useful purposes except what was claimed, used, and cojov-ed by Ihe uatives in that slender but still real sense which he had endeavoured to describe. He would now-state, as clearly as possible, what he understood Lord Grey's mean'ng to be; for he was anxious, if wrong, that his interpretation of the documents he had read should be contradicted. He could assure the right lion, gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) that he would be but too happy to find that the meaning waa not such as he attiihuted to it. Lord Grey stated that they should maintain inviolable the titles of all lands that had been recognised by Iho colonial au. thorilies. Now, he considered, that under the provi sions of the treaty it was impossible that the precise titles to the land could be fixed. A general principle was laid down, and it was committed to certain tribunals to determine the application of that principle to each particular case, The application of the principle had accordingly been determined in particular cases s in a manner, however, that Earl Grey thought improvident. His instructions in effect were, that they should respect religiously any proceeding of the kind that had taken place, but that they should not consider the treaty in the same sense *n future ; that in future the natives should obtain titles to laud only in cases where it had bten improved by labour. He was sorry to say that this construction, which he had put upon Lord Grey's language, was confirmed by a document the existence of which he regretted on many accounts—he meant the letter of Lord Grey, dated the 30th November, 1847, with respect to the Bishop of New Zealand. He did not at present -efer to that letter in so far as it was applicable to the conduct of the bishop, but with regard to the question ot titles. He said—" All that I advised was this—that the theory of the ownership by tribes of unoccupied lands &houtd not be made the foundation of any future transactions ; and that what I conceived to be the lights of the Crown, that is of the public (where no engagements to the contrary have been made) should be carefully attended to in the disposal of land wtwrever no properly has yet been recognised." By the tei m " future transactions," he must understand Lord Grey, till he was otherwise distinctly and positively assured, to niean that they should adhere to the spirit and pr n.-i, le of bis instructions, which, though perhaps open to the charge of some grammatical ambiguity in the language, went upon the princ pie that improvement by labour was the ciiterion fur granting u legal title to ths natives for laud. (Hear, hear.) In olfcring some icmarks

upon tins question as n spec ted tbe biß'iop, he nmst take tbe liberty to make an appeal of a very distinct and emphatic description to tbe right boa. gentleman opposite (Ma. Labouehere.) They well recollected that they had some discussion on this subject on a fanner [occasion; and, if he adverted to it now, it was not because he was apprehensive of anything with respect to the character «f the bishop, or that that light rev. prelate would feel any resentment on account of any/ reproof unjustly administered to him. He believed ho might confidently state that his services would be freely given to the Government, whether he considered himself to have been well or ill used by them, but he (Mr. Gladstone) nevertheless deemed it his duty to refer to one point on which the right rev. preln'c had been indisputably, though no doubt unintentionally, subjected to unjust treatment. That right rev. preialo had presented a protest to the Government* in which he expressed bis opposition to the construction put by Lord Grey on the Treaty of Waiiaugi, and stated that he would assist the natives in as erting and maintaining their legal rights, simctioned by treaty.- Now, a great part of tbe censure which Lord Grey bestowed on that protest was founded on the supposition that the bishop published it, and made it known to the natives, and that he did so in the face of the Government. On a former occasion it appeared to him (Mr. Gladstone) that the bishop had done no such thing; that the bishop, believing in the perfect consonant of view exiting between him and the Governor of New Zealand, determined to strtngthen the Governor's hands, by putting him in possesion of a document containing an expression of his sentimentsj which document nvght be sent to be judged of by the Government at home. Though he had no doubt the bishop would do all in. his power to assist the natives in the assertion of their just rights, yet he believed him wholly incapable of such imprudence as to publish his protest, especiully at a moment of such excitement among the whole natirepopulation. (Hear.) Tbe right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Labouehere) was not, on the occasion when the subject was debated, able to say that the Government had any knowledge whatever that the bishop had published the document to the people. He did not believe that he had done so, and certainly he regarded the offence, as it had been deemed, of sendingit 10 Government, a very different offence from wbac such a line of conduct would have bceu. He wanted to know from the right hon. gentleman opposite whether the bishop published the protest to the natives or not ? It was not in the way of challenge that he asked this, but foi the sake of truth and reason. II tbe bishop did not do so, then seeing that the censure of Lord Grey proceeded on the ground that he had done it, it was an unjust censure (hexr) ; and he hoped to live to see the time—perhaps it might be a few weeks, or even hours —when some reparation would be made to the bißhop for a charge which, if true, would have been serious indeed; but which, if not true, demanded the most ample explanation. (Hear, hear.) Hethen endeavoured to show, tbat the despatch of Eur I Grey was incompatible with tbe construction that had been put upon the Treaty of Waitangi; and he might observe that he would he the last man to invite a gratuitous discussion on this question ; but that the subject was one which gave him no small alarm. He trusted thai an appeal to justice would be stronger than an appeal to fear in that house ; but still with regaid to New Zealand, and the lives of our fellow co <u try men settled there, he must Bay grounds for fear, and upon that ground, as well as by an appeal to reason, ought this matter to be discussed. Up to the present moment they practically had held New Zealand not by the terror of their name or the number of their forces, but by the zealous aad loyal assistance of the great majority of the native population. (Hear, hear.) Let the house fix that proposition well in its mind. They were apt to think when they heard of a rebellion tn New Zealand that it was a dispute between our soldiers and the natives, whereas the fact was that on those occasions our soldiers and the coloniets were uniformly supported by the great body of the natives. How careful ought they to be of taking any course which might tend to wean from them the affe c ions oC "he g.-eat body of the people of Wew Zealand 1 In the papers distributed yesterday Governor Grey wrote that there had been a great excitement among the native population regarding the waste lands claimed by various chiefs, and he enclosed a letter f><>m Captain Sotheby, in which it was intimated, that the intentions of Government in relerence to the waste lands " had created mnch anxiety in the minds of the nativas in norhera portion of the island." He also stated, that alarming eccoon'B had been received from various parts regarn'ng the excitement caused by the proposed introduction of the new constitution, and the steps that were to be taken regarding the registration of the lands. He concluded by Btating that he " feared that the prosperity which was now dawning upon the country will shortly give place to scene* more gloomy than any wbichhaveyet b-en witnessed." Then they hud a letter from C iptain Sothcby, informing them of the alarming stdte of matters in that important part of the island adjoining the Bay of Islands. He laid—- *' Previous to my arriving, Kawiti had come down with about 30 followers to Wnka, to know if such wa» the case, as he considered to bs in open violation uf the treaty of Waitangi, and indirect opposition to what had been thi view othis Excellency the Governor—but Waka eased hia mind by trlhng him there wianotiutlt in such a report, and which I must fully corroborated.*' He also informed them that uno'her Chief named Tape, came di>wn, nhU that to him he gave the assurance, upon the autbo «y of lus Excellency the Governor—" that it was not the iiitmi'iun of Government to claim all the land"—uui "that nu haul would be taken excepting with the will uud consent of the Chiefs, and the granting them a provision, but which kind of remuneration the Natives don't e*-otn to und erst and.'' CiipUiu Sutheby told them of another Chief expressing the samcanxieiy, which he allayed in the snue maimer. Tbui, it was obvious that the anxiety atuung these Chief*, and which would have led to n civil WW in the

island, was allayi d by the distinct assurance on the part of those who were .understood to represent the Ciowo. that the treaty of Waitangi would be maintained, (Hear!) He hoped be had said enough to show the grounds of the anxiety which disturbed bis mind. He had shown that there was an estab'ished constnicion of the treaty of Waitangi, according to which the Nilives wrre to remain,in possession of their 1 mda, without any limitation as to their being improved by labor; and he had shown enough to excite a feir that, according to the letters and instructions of Lord Grey, that construction was to be departed from and tli-it the Crown of England was in danger of being exp ised to the charge of disregarding its treaties, and at the same time disturbing the peacaof the colony. He had shown thit this charge had caused alarm* in the colony, and filled the mind of their manly Governor wiih apprehension. He had shown how the apprehension in the colony was allayed—viz., by the distinct assurance given to the Natives thit the treaty of Waitangi wculd be religiously maintained—and he hoped, therefore, he had shown enou;h to make it clear that it was no gratuitous discussion arbitrarily introduced on his part. (Hear, hear 1) There was no person to whom the right hon. gentleman opposite would communicate more lively pleasure than to himself if he could give him the assurance that the doctrine of Governor Grey, as to the constitution of the treaty was the doctrine on which it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to act. (Hear, hear I) He could not but advert to an expression used by Lord Grey in a despatch of the 23rd December, where be alluded to the treaty as—" what had been called the treaty of Waitangi.'' Whether that treaty w s a wise arrangement he would not stop to say; but whether it was a wise arrangement or nut, it wa » still a treaty, (hear, hear!) and he would say that there was not a more strictly biuding trea'y in existence. He hoped that, in whatever reply the right hon. gentleman might favor him with, he wculd be as clear and txpicit as possible on the points to which he had called his attention. He had thown that there was justice in the claim made by the natives of New Zetland, and he was sure the light honorable gentleman would have every desire to see the fullest justice done to the noble people towards whom we had contracted such large obligations, and of whose allegiance the Queen of England had every reason to be prcud. (H«r !) Mr. M. Milnes aßVed if his right honorable friend meant to refer to the Northern island ? or whether he meant that the treaty of Waitangi respected the one island as well as the other ? Mr. Gladstone said the whol* gist and force of his ' remarks applied to the Northern island, excluding the Sjuthern slice. Mr. Libouchere could assure the right honorable gentleman that he could not attach more importance than he did to the conduct of the Government towards the natives of New Zealand, being characterized by the most perfect good faith, and the most literal fulfilment , of every engagement which <hey had entered into with them, and that he could not have a stronger sense than he had uf the duty* even irrespective of those engagements, which devolved upon the Government of doing everything in their power to protect the interests and promote the welfare of that people. If anything could add to his wi h to see every possible encouragement given to the aboriginal inhabitants, it would be the accounts tha: had been recently received of the conduct of that people, the papers containing which had been laid on the table of the House. Every member who bad read those papers must have observed in what terms Governor Grey and the other persons connected with the colony, hud spoken of the disposition of the Native inhabitants who had adopted the habits anil usages ofcivi'ized life, and who had been working as labourers under the guidance of white men. (Hear, hear, hear !) These people were making magnificent road*, and in other kinds of labour that would d) honour to any civilized country, while the tractable disposition they showed, and their readiness to amalgamate with Europeans, were unexampled among many other of the savage tribes with which they were acquainted. There were at present sixty small coasting vessels owned by natives of New Zealand—a proof of the industry.with whirh they were ready to follow the pursuits of civilized life. The right hon. gentleman stated that he bad experienced great alarm in consequence of the language hrld by the noble Secretary oi State for the Colonic*, on a question which h*d undoubtedly givpn ri*c to great irritation and great jealousy in that coi.ntry—he meant the land claims. He did not behove, however, that the apprehensions the right hon. gentleman had expressed were in reality justified by the facts of the case. He believed his noble friend at the head of the Colooial office would be a" reluctant as himself, in the first place, not strictly to adhere to the terns of the treaty of Waitangi, and not to concede to the natives thfir claim to any land to which they m-re entitled. At the same time he thought, for the sake of the native inhabitants themselves, no course would be more inexpedient than absolutely to affirm that a proprietory right existed on the part eitner of tribes or individual members of those tribes, to the whole of the surface of New Zealand. (Hear.) The islands of New Zealand consisted of 55.000,000 of acres, while the popuittion wa3 not more than J 00,0.0. It was not in New Zealand as in North America, where the inhabitants subsisted by means of the chase. There were no four footed animals except pigs and rats in New Zealand, and the inbah.tants never subsisted by hunt'ng, as did the North American Indians. What then could be more preposterous and absurd than to suppose that these 100,000 persons could have any sort of claim over such an extent of country ? The hon. gentleman stated that he did not controvert the general and abstract view of the doctrines laid down by Earl Grey on the rights of the aboriginal inhabitants, ae contradistinguished from thuse of civilized society, but he intimated that there was something in Earl Grey's despatch and instructions that was inconsistent with the treaty of Wai'angi. Now he did not think that such was the case; nor did he think there any material difference between Lord Grey asd Governor Grey as to the way in which the treaty of Waitangi should be carried out, or on the general question ns to the way in which the natives shouli be uspil. If he bad intended to defend the course taken by Lord Grey he would hive rpoted ju-t the very passage th.l* ihe right hon. gcntli*miiii hud rtiul, in which the view of the quctiun was &ute.\ Ami eure'y it w.is important thit Government sh.ull keep in vilw wl )a t wn. etrrnjillj ->nd fu»id«miu , ally tru* m such matters as these. Hut the right hon. gpiuh*ii>.'in did not sufficiently attend to the force uf «ome particular ucrda in th.tse instructions, or hi' would have seen that, *o f.u from beiring the in'rri-rctaiiao he put uj. n them, they had u very different meaning. It appi-arcd O turn that the limited strii :'y tV ptrp i.i... ■iehtsbelunsim- enurr *■• ■ 1-ib* cc ..t j u„ i.i.l-i,! • <, •bo e cisis i» w.nch 1- V-t ■ t M-wc c*r! or a in„.- t had letn.v ■'■"*«! '■ ' '' !"••!. He Ou-v'bi tl.-if cul' bn.o .i/.t of i.v.- : . >•■> :., th-s n- .i.-iiMhii; then i» .cl u,» a n nil to h-M, u lc- H.t> co-I.: prowthir thpycvmtfed Lbour on that I.n.'. 'J'l • jj.gs.igc liiJ lj: the put u 4 on i' by

the right hon. .gentleman. Words wpre introduced which plainly showed that wheie the natives, from use and other grim nils, possessed a fair and boaa fide title, the L ical Government was bound to accede to their claims. The instructions accompanying the New Zealand charter, declared tu*t no claim t-hould he admitted unless it were established tbnt ether bv some act of the Executive Government, or the abjudication of some court of competent jurisdiction, the right had been facfcnowledged and ascertained, or ** that the claimants, or their progenitors, or thu*e from whum they derived their title, had actually had the occipition of the lands bo claimed, mid hid btcn to use and enjoy the wne, either as pku. a of abode, or for tillage, or or the growth of crop?, or for the dep isturing of cattle, or otherwise for the conrcnience and sustentation of life, by mean-* of b.bour expended thereupon.'* He dissented (roui the constriifiiiou of the right lion, gentleman, and did eot tlm.fc the words ** by menus of labour tx;ieiided thereupon" were 10 be read in the connection by the right hon. gentleman. The treaty of Wailan.'i wan a document which the New Zealand would be b "ind to tike cognizance ; mid he did m>t believe th< t they hid excluded from any bona tiJe p •usu'n.ijn of Wnd any New Zealand tnbs or mdivhiu -I, even thoujli was not Übour actually expended upon it. Ht{Mr. Lnbouchere) believed in the first untuned that the treaty of Waitangi ough* to be strictly, scrupulously, and even largely interpreted, that bona fide claim which the aboriginal inhabitants could put forward under it ou*ht to be liberally conceded, in justice as well as in souud policy. But he did not thiuk tha* under* colour of the expression they should bo allowed to hold larga tracts ol bud which they could put to no use, thereby obstructing the progress of the co ony. He did not believe that on this subject there was any real differencs of opinion hetnc?n Governor Grey and !ia<l Grey. He believed that Governor Grey would cirry out the instructions j and by the discretion, good and experience applied to the administration of the colony, he (Mr. Laboucheie) entertained sanguine hopes tbat this perplexing, buras&iiig, and most dangerous question would be brought to a sa! issue. A passage ha! just been pointed out to him which bore on this subject, and which would he found at pare 84 of the papers printed iu December. In commenting on iheletter of the bishop, Earl Grey said—- «■ If the biehop hal comniltel the instructions accompanying tbe charter, which v re published with it, and which really contain the practical directions to tha local government, which my despatch was < nly intended to illustrate, he would there have fouitd the greatest attention paid 10 the maintenance of every thing which can be called an existing native right to land, though establish'd in consequence of the prevalence of that mistaken ihe-ry wb ch I have combated. The protector of the aborigines is there directed to inform the registrar respecting all lands within his district to which the natives, • either as tribes or indiTidmls,' claim either proprietary or possessary title; that all such claims shall be registered; and that wherever it shall be shown, either that such lauds have been actually orcupied by the natives, or that the ownership to such lands, although unoccupied, has bpen recognised by tbe executive or judicial authorities to be vested in the natives such claim shall he fiunlly and conclusively admitted.*' In a despatch from Governor Grev, recently received by Earl Grey, he found an allusion made to this subI ject:— " These complaints, and ihe request for the investigation of claims, wee made in the districts in which the missionaries are the principal laud claimants ; and lordship will see that Captain Sothcby states, that some of the young men apoke in a moat determinedrainner, and threatened to take the law into their own hands. Captain Sotheby's observations quite accord with all the information which has reached me from other sources; and I can only trast that my heme; able shortly to conclude some definite and ami&tb e arrangement with the land claimants in the north, iu ly for ever set these existing questions at rest." Governor Grey had a confident expectati- n that h e would be able to bring those nutters to a prartical, final, and satisfactory conclusion. The right lioi. gentleman spoke of the lull before tie hiuse as consisting of txv» parte, one enact raj; tin other expending. He approved of the enacting part of the lull: but, with regard to the suspending part, which applied to the constitution of New Zealand, and which empowered the Governor to introduce that constitution, aihe saw reason, cither into tin- hilf, or the whole, or into portions of New Z.atand, th» lion, gentleman expressed a strong opinion that it would be better to repeal that constiiirioo. He (Mr. Lahouclierc) did not think ihst an advisable course. Whatwasthe situation in which the house stood as rcrarded this question .* That house had deliberately, and after discussion, parsed a bill by which they cave 'ree representative institutions to the colony of New Zealand, The Governor of New Zealand expressed gie.it apprehensions as to the effect of introducing those institutions at the present moment; but, Parliament having thus deliberately and solemnly prom uncart an opinion on the point, whether free institutions '•hnuld be extended to those islands or not, he (Mr. Labonch>*re) deprecated the idea of the house t;.Mng any course at variance with that decision. Pocver was given to the Governor o'f New Zealand, at any time wi:hin the next five years, to introduce those institutions. The whole question mi-to again be submitted to the consideration of Parliament: but his owti expectation and hope was, that long before that period had the Governor, by communication!! wth the natives, might prepare the wny, and, seeing p. proper opportunity, Und him*plf sb'e to introduce tho?e institutions cither at once into both diusi'ma of New Zealand, or into such parts of the colony as might be judged advisable. This was a much more convenient course than the repeal ol a measure so deliberately taken. Tiierp wis one question more to w'lrch he {Mr. L ibonchere) adverted with pam ; Imt, ? : noe the right hou. gentleman had pgain renewtd the discu-&ioi on that point, be felt that he could not pass it by. The qmstion was that relating to tbe con lurt of th" Bishop of N w Zealand. The right lion, gmtleman a*-ked if any additional information hud been recrived bv the Government as to the conduct of ili*> b>hcp, awl if the;' knew whether he hid i»l.ea means to promulgate Ins opinions to tbe natives ? Mr. Gladstone.—lVhftl.-r the protest was addressed to the n.aivcs or to the (iru-nmient ? Mr Labiuiehere.—No iiifurmation has been received by the CnlonH ofli.-c on t!ie subject r-iuce he last addre>svd the house, lint the bishop in sending this proti. .t t-i \hv Gi»\ernii;ciit it home, did announce his intention tn rvrrss li.« to tin- natives of Nr-wZ-il-.d .«,..!, ~ ,- .djpted by tu Governi' ."-: v t ■ '. . t-:' t= . , Hiii. i. -ul-; i ts, .nd I. i • f".f ■! 1.. ,1 . .) I-,' »,. >.. r t1,,,,; j, .K.UIIt.SUI. g ''•• i:..n«sii.i; ii/mov ' ■'!.■«-" nv. e l f- r i! p:i.ff.r.vflciiici.«i> •(. i.et oitbel.ivh-.oi'Xpw /-■>! 'in! mi '.- .i-i-o' .in!,. :o!i'< nresi us.e. hj (Me. L,ib.-ii ! - nnt-t «dnk I" the opjtiu... that luia was a most ! . m .i. 1 . m tl j-st k-u the n.irt of the bishop,

and the Secretary ofthe Colonies, on heating that it was the intention of the bishop to agitate this question among the natives, was bound expressly to state his opinion to the bishop. Mr Gladstone.—He stated that the bishop addressed his protest lo the natives Mr. Labouchere.—-An intention of that kind having been formally and offici? T !y communicated through th Governor of the colony to the Fecretary ofStite for the Colonial Depaitraent, the Secretary of State would not have done his duty had bs not tpld the bishop that such a course was very wrong. He (Mr. Labouchere) hoped* that the right hon. gentlejnan would he satisfied that there was no intention on the part of the Colonial-office to do anything in regard to waste lands which was inconsistent with the rights guaranteed to the natives un dcr the treaty of Waitaogi, with their true interests or with the most liberal and fair dealing. The house would do well to intrust Governor Grey, whose conduct showed how much confidence might be placed in his prudence and discretion, as well as firmness, with those ample discretionary powers which it was proposed upon him. Placed as they were at a greatdistauce from the community for which they 1 d teen celled to legislate, it was better to corfer such discretionary powers upon the Governor or the colony tha i to fix a precise period when the constitution should be brought into His own persuasion was, that ifibt- house, relying upon the prudence, circumspection, and vigilance of Governor Grey, gave him the necessary powers, there was the best prospect ol seeing free institutions introduced into New Zee'and, to be enjoyed boih by the British seniors and the aboriginal inhabitants ; and they might cherish the hope that this important dependency of the British Crown would yet flourish as a united, happy, and free community. Sir E. Buxton observed, that in presenting a petition on a former occasion lie had been led to ask whether the manner in whivh the Bishop of New Zealand had acted was not a matter in which !bey were then unable t3 decide. He found, however, some incidental evidence that Governor Grey had not lost confidence in the bishop, the Governor having applied to the bishop in reference to the land grants for the missionaries of the ChurJt of Euglcid, and propositions had been made wltkh they had accepted. She views ofthe bishops as to the native claims were by no means singula:-. Letters had been received from the missionaries connected with the Weslcyan body, speaking in a> strong larsuage , as could be used of the new chatter, but the expressions were so strong that the secretary of the Wesleyan body bad requested him (Sir E. Baxton) not to read the loiters to the house. Other gentlemen ofthe highest consideration and of all classes concurred in putting a simihir const! action on the charter. The right hon. gentleman had expressed the wise determination of Her Majesty's Government that the treaty of Waitangi shoi-Id he upheld fairly, and interpreted liberajly. He t *u«sted it would be carried out in the spirit in which it had been proposed by the Secretary of State on the one hand, rnd by the ualhcs on the ether. In a despatch dated August 14, 1539, from Lord Normanby, j theu Secretary tor the Colonies, his Lordship, addresing Governor Hobson, said, —'• It will be your duty to obtain, by fair end equal contracts with the natives, the cession to the Crown of such waste lands as may be progressively required for the occupation of settlers resorting to New Zealand." ** Waste lands !**—not cultivated or occupied lands. Such were the views of Lord Normanby in IS4O. In a despatch dated Dec. 9,1840, the opinion of Governor Hobson was stated,' that—' the treaty mutt be regarded as the fundamental law of the country, and must be so interpreted as to harmonize with the other laws of New Zealand relating to like sut-jects.** The fact, therefore, appeared that j Lord Normanby expected that the Government should ; acquire no territory a3 clainrng the sovereignty of New Zealand. Sir K- Peel, speaking in 1845 said,— " There is no claim here to possession of territory in consequence of «overeignty." They had the sovereignty minus the lend; they gave up the land when they claimed the .right of sovereignty. He trusted, then, that in dealing with the natives the Government would deal with them according to the meaning which had el ways been attached to the treaty of Waitangi. Lord S<anley in proposing a ipnd-lsx of 2d per acre, stated that it was intended lo apply to all lands; but the Government was not 'ikely to tis lands which belonged to itself, or to induce a iorfeiture of that which was al ready theirs. Such was the construction put upon the treaty by the natives at the present time. From the papers just printed, it appeared that the greatest alarm had been created among the people, lest the lands should be taken from them, and, undeniably, their opinion was that there was a title on their part to the possession of all the had in the northern island. It was notorious to those acquaintc i v.hh the country that the New Zealanders do put a value on jheir land; and, thougti they might use it only for " pig-runs," they were ready to enter into war rather than give up what l they considered their own. He trusted the Government would act fully on those excellent principles which the right hon. gentleman had enunciated, and accord- ! ing to the interpretation ofthe treaty now brought under their notice. He hoped in spite ofthe influence of the New Zealand Company, that the Goverument would act on those principles. If they only did so, they would find that peace and security would be maintained in New Zealand. Mr. Aglionby was induced to rise partly by the allusion made by the hon. baronet in concluding his speech. He (Mr. Aglionby) belonged to the New Zealand Company, of which the hon. baronet expressed his fears. From the moment he had become connected with it he had seen nothing in its transactions except what had given him pleasurt, and what he should have expected on the part of an association composed of men as distinguished for stavon, education, aud good feel* ; ing as any in the country. He craved the hon. baronet's close scrutiny into ell its proceedings. The hon. [ baronet would nod that his fears had been excited by what had fallen from interested or turbulent persons, j who had said mauytVngs ofthe company eonlraiy to! fact. All th'* information which cou'd be supplied on j the subject was at the dispos"! of the hon. baronet.— The company wanted nothing but publicity. The hon. baronet and he differed in their views of the treaty of! Waitangi. 3 he hon. baronet considered the whole i lands, without distinction, in the island of New Zealand, to be the property ofthe natives,—their property against ill the world—for no other reason itseemedthan that they happened to reside there or had eaten somebody who had lived in the same place. The expression " beneficial enjoyment'* afforded a fair and liberal construction ofthe condition of which natives were to, be confirmed in the possessionof lands. There were, lor example, portions of land connected with the sea and inland rivers which, as a people offishers.theNewZea- j landers did beneficially enjoy ; and he did nor believe j that they would be deprived of the beneficial enjoyment \ which they had in any such instances. He had called atti-ntion to the coiibtiurtion of th* l treaty of Waitangi the very year in which ii was signed. The treaty spoke ofthe lands which the natives " collectively and individually possess." What was the meaninsjof the word " possess," say in reference to the middle island, which : was as large as England, but which had not more than 1200 inhabitants? According to the hon. baronet, those 1200 natives possessed die whole island; thai opinion indeed, was advocated in the colony itself.— But could the 11641} be understood to comer upon th.se

1200 persons in virtue of the word " possess" the property of that island to the total exclusiou- of the discoverers ? Such an idea was not only contrary to the principles of political economy but to the principles of religion. What was the oondition of those islands, which had led tb\thei%,£OJo)usa£ion by this country 1 The fact was, Cook's discovery the natives were dqastesflßHßunabera, owing to war among themselves,, wpe contests Jot territory, because they'd tsW|tf wawtTu but which 'were carried on for the and savage propensities. Tribes were destroyed and eaten by their conquerors. It was a matter of humanity to colonise that country for the advancement of civilisation and Christianity. The conquerors left the land unoccupied. Was it to be said that, under such circumstances, the peopleof this country should be prevented from applying their enterprise and capital to tfaosa islands, due care being taken of the interests ofthe natives ? Much has been done to extend education and religion smong them, and they were now becoming gradually absorbed in a mora civilised population. With reference to the construction ofthe treaty of Waitangi, it was important to look at the language used by Lord John Russell in November 1840,—the treaty having been made in the beginning of that year Inanofficialdocumcntofthat hon. member quoteojPthe noble lord used* the*expression, " grants of waste land to us belonging/* Tiie noble lord evidently did not understand 'the treaty as recognising the whole land as the property of the natives, because be referred to large portions lying within the island as belonging to the crown. He begged leave, also, to remind the house of a few-remarks which be bud made in a former discussion respecting Ibe distinction between the southern settlement and the northern settlement of New Zealand. Those remarks not having been reported at the time, he bad been found fault with for not having alluded to the distinction,—which however, be bad done—and be now begged leave to lead Governor Grey's own words on that subject. Governor Grey in his despatch of October 7,1846, lays : —" I am not at present aware of any circumstance which need prevent the immediate introduction of representative institutions into that colony, which would comprise the settlements in Cook's Straits and the Middle Island. AH questions of a vexations nature between the government and the settlers in that part of the colony have now been finally set at rest ; and, with a considerable acquaintance with British settlements, I have no hesitation in recording it as my opinion, that there never was a body of settlers to whom the power of local self government could be more wisely aud judiciously entrusted than the inhabitants of the settlements to which I am alluding." Mr. Cardwell said he would not attempt to accept the challenge or the hon. gentleman to enter into the long vexed question of the construction of the treaty of Waitangi, having on a former occasion, had the honour to state his views on that subject at great length; lie wished just to say, that no subsequent reflection tended to satisfy him that the legal construction which bad been adopted by nearly one half of the committee of IS4s,—although there bad been a bare majority against them—was in any respect erroneous; neither bad the occurrences which bad since taken place in the colony, helped to convince him that the practical wellbeing of tbe colony had been advanced by the construction of the treat*, which had unfortunately, been put upon it by the tnajoiity of that committee. But having said that, be did not think it right in him again to occupy the time ofthe bouse in a long legal argument, to which justice only could be done when tbe house was prepared to come tbeie for tbe express put pose of sitting upon tbe case judicially. At present it arose in a purely collateral shape, his hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone), bad only interrupted the Speaker leaving the chair, for tbe purpose of obtaining satisfaction on two particular points ; the one being a purely personal question, in which it was of importance to see justice done to a most respectable individual, tbe other being a great public question affecting the destiny of the island ofNew Zealand. Wilh respect to the first question, be (Mr. Cardwell) regretted that the answer ofthe right hon. gentleman tbe President of the Board of Trade, was to his mind, perfectly unsatisfactory. The question was, whether the right hon. gentleman did or did not charge the Bishop of New Zealand with having been guilty of agitating the island, and endeavouring to excite the minds of the natives against tbe existing government. The right hon. gentleman bad read a passage from the Bishop's letter, in which he stated that he was ** resolved to use all legal and constitutional measures befitting bis station, to inform tbe natives"of New Zealand of then rights and privileges as Biitisb subjects, and to assist them in asserting and maintaining them;" but there he stopped short. He, (Mr. Cardwell), begged,-to read the words which immediately followed, which were these, " whether by petition to Ibe Imperial Parliament, or other loyal aud peaceable methods, but that in so doing I shall not forget the respect which I owe to your Excellency, nor do anything which can be considered likely to add to the difficulties of the colony." (Hear, hear). That was the whole question. The bishop—whether rightly or wrongly he would not then enquire, though he might argue the point some other day,—felt it to be bis duty as the head of the whole missionary body,— for be believed that even those missionaries who were not under episcopal superintendence, and were not members of the Church of England, acted with great harmony in co-operating wUfa him on this subject,—the Bishop felt it to be bis duty to represent the case to government. If he had done so as an agitator among the natives, he (Mr. Cardwell) would have been among the last to vindicate him. On this point the right hon. gentleman said that the government had no information from tbe colony on tbe subject. He begged to say that they bad very good negative information. The letter ofthe Bishop was dated Ist July last, and we had the fullest information on the state of the colony on this particular subject down to the Ist October last, three months afterwards, and not one word had been received fro.n the Governor of the celony rebpecling the lullowing up of the protest of the Bishop. He considered this to be the most conclusive testimony that the Bishop bud not been guilty of tbe charge imputed to him. The other question which bis ri.jbt hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone) had I referred to, was in what sense, and in what way

the government to carry out the treaty of Wai tang*? Were they going to observe that treaty in the sense put upon it at the time by those who made it, or were they going to break it, or explain it away, or get rid of it by a side wind? He might observe in passing, that the right hon. gentleman had included the treaty of Waitangi as one of the arte of the executive Government of New Zealand, whereas that treaty was made prior to the existence of an executive government there. In fact, the Executive Government rested upon the provisions of the Treaty itself. Bu,t be was happy to say that the answer of the right hon. gentleman, with respect to the construction of this treaty, was satisfactory in the main. He (Mr. Cardwell) had understood him as stating that, whatever might have been the instruction of Lord Grey ip 1846, —whether they were consistent with the recognised interpretation of the treaty or not—the government entirely approved of the conduct of Captain Grey, in reference to that treaty, and intended to act upon the principle lie had laid down, and that an instruction to that effect would go out at a message of peace to the people of New Zealand. The anxiety therefore, which according to recent despatches, seemed to be felt on this point in the island, might be taken to be set at rest. According to Captain Sotheby's report, there had been a great deal of ex citement on the part of Kawili, and many of the natives, owing to a report that the government intended to take possession of all uncultivated lands, but that Waka had eased Kawiti's mind by telling him there was no truth in such a report, which Captain Sotheby most fully corroborated. In the presence of Tomati Waka, through the interpreter, Captain Sotheby gave Tupe (another chief,) to Understand, upon the authority of his Excellency the Governor, that such was not the intention or even the wish, if practicable, of the govei nuient ; and that no laud would be taken excepting with the will and consent of the chiefs, and then granting them a pension, but which kind of remuneration the natives did not seem to understand. Tupe said, ifland was required, it must be paid for, but several times expressed his wish to live peaceably. Now, this was the point npon which the question of peace or war with tbe natives would turn, and all he (Mr. Cardwell) wanted to know was, whether tbe government were going to act in this spirit—and he understood emphatically, tliatth ey were. (Hear, bear.) If they were, then we should have peace in New Zealand, and then those improvements to which the right bon. gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) referred to in the peroration of his speech, might he verily believed, be fairly anticipated. The hon, gentleman wbo/bad spoken last (Mr. Aglionby,) had leferred to the former conduct of the natives, — reviving some of the old stories which they used to hear |in former times about their titles to their land being derived from eating its former possessors. Tbe papers lately received fromjNew Zealand gave some evidence respecting the state of the natives. It appeared that they had been able to maintain themselves in making a gallant stand against the Queen's troops, and when they had unfortunately killed some of our troops, what did they do? It was stated that the body of Private Weller of the SSth regt., was found and carried away by the enemy, who read praters over, and buried him at Owaiawai without de* grading mutilation- (hear, hear.) With respect to tbe pailicular bill before tbe house, be was perfectly satisfied that it was necessary to do something in the matter; and as tbe question was, whether the Speaker should then leave the chair, he did not tbink it light to occupy more of the time of the bouse, or offer any opposition to its going into committee. The Earl of Lincoln thought the tight hon. j gentleman (Mr. Labouchete) would s*e that the suggestion which he bad made to the houso two or three hours ago, in no unfriendly vpirit, might have been wisely adopted. He (Lord Lincoln) bad told him it would be impossible to make any practicable progress with the bill »n that occasion, and that it would be absolutely necessary to have a discussiou oil it upon a fmure day. Now they bad bad what be admitted to be an interesting discussion upon the affairs of New Zealand; but with the exception of some incidental observations, none whatever upon the bill. He bad intended to address the house at some length in regard to the bill, but he certainly would not commence bis address at 5 o'clock, knowing that the house must adjourn at 6 o'clock, according to the sessional order. He would suggest to the right hon. gentleman, whether it would not be expedient that tbe chairman should, pro forma, take the chair, and then report progress; and let the bouse take the discussion upon the bill at some future day. Mr. Labouchere was very far from accusing the noble lord of wishing lo disturb tbe business of the bouse; but he could not consent to postpone going into committee. He was sorry to think that the noble lord meditated any opposition to the bill, but he thought any observations upon tbe question of the suspension i*.'the abolition of the con stitution could be made quite as well wheu discussing tbe clauies of the bill in committee. The harl of Liicoln objected to raising the discus* sion upon which he wished the house to enter in committee. If it was the wish of the house to go into committee he would not oppose it; but he thought it fair to Live no ice that, if they did so, he intended to raise the discussion to which he referred anon the bringing up of the report, and that he reserved to himself the light to move any amendments on the report which he should find to be necessary. Mr. S. *cott joined with the noble lord in expressing a wish that the Government would postpone g.-ing into committee uoon this vtny importaut subject. If they were dctei mined to persevere in colonising New Zealand, let them do it on the principles of equity and jus 'ce. What had been the consequences of their legislation already ? One act of Parliament bed breu sent out, and no sooner had it arrived than the Cover nor was obliged to enticat the Colonial-office to pause before they enforced a measure which, be felt sure, would create difficulties and disturbance. Would It not be better, instead of attempting to go into committee now upon a subject of such great importance, to postpone the consideration of it until the house had had an opportunity of judging of the provisions of t'le bill, and of deciding whether the colony was in a fit state to receive such a measure ? Mr. Adderly complained that the discussion of a matter of so much importance as the giving or suspending n constitution to New Zealand had hceu mixed up with 1 subjects wholly forcijju to it, snth us the conduct of the

bishop and the treaty of Waitonc-i; and expressed the hope that tlie question would be raised in a manner more fitting to its importance. Mr. Austey observed that it wns too late for lion, members representing the New Zealand Corapnny tn> affect to douiit the existence of the native laws and usages of the colony, for they had themselves given to them an explicit recognition. The only title of the company to their lands was founded on the assumption that there was a law of real property among the natives, under had the power of transmitting the land. He had not made up his mind entirely to vote agaimt the bill, but he could not consent to proceed with the committee unless the Government gave a distinct promise that this question of the occupation of property should be determined with a regard not ouly to toe native laws and customs of New Zealand, but to the body of English law. The lion, member concluded by moving that the house do go into committee on this day week* No bon. member appearing as seconder, the motion fell to the ground, 'ihe Speaker then left; the chair, and the house resolved itself into committee on the bill. On clause l beinc proposed, Mr. Gladstone intimated, as we understood, that i£ he bad any amendment to propose relative to the duration of five years, be would give due notice of propo* sing it on the report. Mr. Home objected to the term of five years, as too long. Mr. Labouchere thought that the term was not too long, consideilng the distance of the colony from the mother country. Alt that the bill did was to fix five years as the maximum period daring which the constW tution might be suspended; and the Governpv» itshontd be remembered, had discretionary powenf? i confer the constitution, or partially confer it, before 1 that period, should good grounds appear for so doing. Mr. Afflionby observed, that the original intention of 1 the Government had been to grant to the southern portion of New Zealand a constitution immediately, and to the northern oortion the same boon after the lapse of two years. The change in this view bad bcea caused] by the s rong representations of Governor Grey; but he (Mr. Aglionby) did not think that the rvcommen. dation of Uat officer would at alt warrant the suspension of the constitution with regard to the south for so long a period as five years. There were no complaints whatever in respect to the conduct of the inhabitants of this part of tiie colony 5 they were admitted to be peaceable and orderly, and it was not maintained that they were atall unfit for the privileges with which it had been proposed to entrust them. (Bear, hear.) He apprehended that, notwithstanding this bit), there would »till be a discretionaryapower with the Governor to cur* tail the period of five years, so far as concerned the southern settlements, if be saw no danger in such a course; and it would further be in his power, if he (Mr. Agbonby) understood the measmc aright, to make such alterations and modifications in ibe ougiual charter as he might think necessary. There could be no question that Governor Grey would exercise such a power with great discretion, and he begged to ask the right lion- gentleman if that power should not rest wills the Governor ? Mr. Labouchere referred the lion, gentleman to the fourth clause, wherein it was stated.that tbe Governor of New Zealand wotdd have the power, if he should think fit, to mffoduce a constitution to one while he withheld it from another portion of the colony. It had been thought advisable to intrust the Governor with discretion, and it was a point on which it would be better to leave everything to his own judgment. It might be that the appearance of patriality would cause great excitement and be productive of very se ious consequences to the peace of the co:ony; but if, v Ithout danger, a constitution could be granted to the south v .thin the period of five years, the- e would be no obstacle whatever placed in ttie way of the Governor makiug the concession. With regard to the other point adverted to by the bon* gentleman, the Governor would not have the power to alter the chatter, but would be able, bv an ordinance of the Legislative Council, to make those amennmeits which might be necessary to the good governmeet of the colony. Ttie Earl of Lincoln thought, as the right hon. gentleman had insiskd ou going into tim piecemeal discussion, that he should at least not have Liven answers which were not borne out by the bill itself, He sincerely regretted, on every ground, that there was no representative of the Colonial-office in that house. The right bon. gentleman had taken bis information from the Attorney-General; but wns he quite sure the answer he had just given was accurate ? Was it a fact tbat under the fourth clause the Governor »f New Zealand would have power to grant to the south provinces that constitution which it was the object of the first clause to suspend? He (Lord Lincoln) upprebended there was no such power whatever; unde- the fourth clause t*ie Governor would be c 1 powered to grant a Legislative Council; but that wns iiy no means the sort of constitution they were about to suspend. The light hon. gentleman, therefore, was misrepresenting his own bill* If this bill passed, the Queen in Council only would have power to renew the constilu* tion Mr.C. RuUer considered that the reply of his ripht hon. friend to the question put by the hon. member foe Cockcrmouth was strictly correct. Undoubtedly the discretionary power of renew Ing the constitution was left to the Governor ; that is to say, that he would be able to do so by and through a Legislative Council nominated by the Crown- Under the fourth clause it would be in the power of the Governor at any time, being so advised, or Uklng it on his own responsibility, or instructed by the Colonial Secretary, by anp> with toe advice of the Legislative Council, to constitute, by ordinance, a provisional Legislative Couucil, '* to be nominated, or elected.** Su: posin?, therefore, at the end of two or three years, the Governor thought that the southern or the northern provinces were in a fit state to receive free representative institutions, under this clause, as be (Mr. liullcr) took it, lie wou d have power to propose an ordinance to this coun-il, constituting prov ncial legislative councils to be nominated by him, or to be elected by the people or by the muni- ' cipatities. Tbe Earl of Lincoln—The risht hon. gentleman (Mr Buller) bad answered the question of the right hon. ■ member 'or Cockermooth (Mr. Ag(ionby) in a very . lawyer-like way, by evading the main point altogether* V He (Lord Lincoln) -denied again that by the fourth clause, the Governor would, as stated, have the power of renewing the constitution. The first clause suspended the constitution, as far as it related to separate legislative assemblies, for tbe period of five years; and, by the second, third, and fourth clauses, they professed to provide a substitute, and a most sorry substitute it a was- The Government had insisted upon bringing on this discussion, and the bouse had a right to expect an accurate explanation of the bill. The explanation given by tbe right hon. gentleman was most inaccurate. The Attorney-General could not agree with the noble lord. His right hon. frierid (Mr* Labouchere) bad re ferred to him, but he had not spoken merely on the simple construe ion of the clause; he hnd been aware of the intention of the wording, and he believed his right hon. fiiend had stated it accurately. The most unlimited confidence wni placed iu Governor Grey, and the Colonial-office proposed to give to the Governor of the colony power, at his discretion, to increase the Legislative Council which existed before the Sassing of the former act, which was levived by this ill. The constitution could not be revived to the whole of New Zealand under five years, but it could be revived t> the southern provinces at any time ut the discretion of the Governor within that period. After some further conversation! the house resumed, and the Chairman reported progress, aud obtained leave to sit again.