W. I. CARNEY. ]

37

I.—lob,

them by the throat :it was simply that they were not up to date-. Not only small but also large packers were; driven out of business. Times change, and New Zealand has not changed. Let us come in here, and when we do wrong, then stop us from doing it. It means that if you do not give us a, license' 1 shall have to turn out twenty-five Englishmen who arc now in my employ, and start in and buy from Mr. Lysnar, and firms of that sort, and the; rest of the' companies throughout New Zealand. I can buy from the' companies all, the stuff I want f.0.b., but you elo not want that. You want our competition. Well, if you do not get, an export license you are not going out of business in New Zealand ? — Not as far as buying in New Zealand is concerned. You say that in your operations your company becomes the' only middleman between the producer and the consumer ? —Yes, as far as handling is concerned. We buy em the hoof, and sell tei Armour and Co. or any other firm which has branch houses where: they distribute from the branch houses to the retail butcher. I elo away with the middleman by buying direct from the farmer and selling direct to Armours. If we do not buy here 1 hope to buy from some one else in New Zealand, and sell to Armour and Co. that way. Dei 1 understand that in selling your meat you give- the first preference to the Armour concern ? —Yes. You naturally do that because Armour is Armour ?—I do that because I believe Armours all over the world are: well equipped, and they can afford to give the best prices. But if he does not pay the best price you sell tei some one clse> ?—Yes. Can you amplify your statement that the Federal Trade Commission was set up as the result of political interests ? — Yes. Can you tell us what you mean by that ? —Certain interests in America, grocery line's and other competitors, we're anxious to see the; five, big packers go out of business. It, was during the war, anel there was great influemce from un-British concerns who wanted to see the Commission se-t up. It was set up to go into not only the question of the big packers, but the food situation. II; opened up in Chicago, with three or four men at the head, and about a hundred and fifty clerks, and also detectives from the scum of the world---men who had absolutely no ideas of right or wrong. They were not men like Colver, but low I.W.W. men anel Bolsheviks, as was afterwards proved by Senator Watson in the House. Their representative came to Colver, and the; men who handed it tei President Wilson, who took notice: of it. Where did the political interests come in ?- Colver, later on, ran for Congressman in a, certain district. He was trying to get the consuming public east of Chicago to go in, anil he wemld fight the packers to show what he was doing, and then he would run for Congress. 1 dei not say that was the chief foundation, but it was one of many things that have been geiing on. You suggest that this Commission was not set up in the real interests of the producers and consumers ? —No, it was not. Do you say the Commission purposely refrained from inviting the packers to come ? —I say they never did invite them. Mr. Armour told me last year that it was a put-up job that they would never be; called. They expected to be called, and the first thing they knew the report was printed and handed to tho President. They wore never asked to substantiate any of the claims of the Federal Trade, Commission. Does not tho report carry weight in America ?—None at all. You never hear of it. You will not find any throe people not directly interested who ever read it. Then it is not taken seriously ? —No ; neither by consumer nor producer. You say that Armour and Co. of Australasia have no interest in any shipping ?—None whatever. As a matter of fae:t, have you sold most of your meat to Armours for organizations in other parts of the world ?—I have never sold a carcase except to the; Imperial Government up to date. You say the producers here are suffering from a combination in London ?— I make that statement because I believe the commission men at Home have' combined to handle the New Zealand farmer. I se;e' that weekly reports have come from, these men. They wanted to keep down competition. For instance, Gordon Woodruff, Fitter, and others have been getting your meat, selling it in London, and getting commission. Armour and Co. of London did that for fifteen yearshandled from 350,000 to 400,000 carcases of your meat every year. Wo do not want all the meat of Now Zealand, but we want our fair share of it. Had your company anything to do with the recent sale, of New Zealand meat in America ? —Yes. Did you actually ship it ?—No. Tho meat was bought by Armour and Co. of London for Armour and Co. of Chicago, from the Board of Trade. That meat, when bought, was shipped to America, and the Board of Trade in London requested that 1 should inspect the meat that was going for shipment to America, and give the Imperial Government Supplies a certificate that it was a fair shipment of the output of New Zealand. With respect to the treatment by the United States Government of the report of the Federal Trade Commission, have you any reason for saying that they are not going to carry out any of the other recommendations ?—I do not think they are. You would not be in a position to tell us that they were going to issue their decrees, and that they are not being issued ? —I think that is so. I think the thing has never been threshed out and decided, yes or no. They have not come to any decision ?■ —I do not think so, but lam not quite sure on the point. About the telegram sent by Mr. Meeker : ho directs that the, communications shall be in " varied language," You do not justify that ? —There are Germans, Frenchmen, Italians, and people of other races in America. That is the only way I can justify it. The. Chairman : They wanted to give them all meat ?—I think so. I never saw it before. There are papers all over America, in French, Italian, anel other languages. Mr. Field : Then " varied language " does not mean to bo letters in different terms to indicate that they were not all coming from one source ?—I did not think that when Mr. Lysnar read it. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : I understand from you that you consider that it was really what might bo called the " Hooligan " element that were responsible for the matter of the packers coming before, the Federal Trade Commission ? —Yes.