27

L—7a.

LIEUT. MACDONALD.j

" Sir, —I have the honour to report that before the receipt of your letter I went yesterday with Lieutenant Mac Donald, R.N.Z.A., Officer Commanding Detachment, Lyttelton, to ltipa Island and inspected the arrangements made for detention of defaulters. 1 found everything satisfactory. The cabins suggested for solitary-confinement cells are occupied by officers during the annual camps. I have slept in a similar cabin in the fort for a few nights every year this century. —C. H. Upham." " P.S.—The sewage-disposal is similar to that we had in Lyttelton up to a few years ago, but the pails in Ripa Island are emptied daily at high tide. There has never been any illness attributable to this system in the history of this fort." This is a certificate from Dr. Guthrie :— "This is to certify that I have this evening examined .1. I. McGee, J. If. Campbell, and H. Guthardt, passive registers to the Defence Act, and find them in sound health and physically fit to serve the period of detention to which they have been committed. —John Guthhie, M.8., C.H.8." A certificate from Dr. Newell as to the quarters : — " I hereby certify that I have examined the quarters on Ripa Island in which the offenders in military custody are accommodated, and I find them satisfactory and suitable for the purpose.—J. M. Newell. , ' 80. Hon. Mr. Allen, j Anything further to say yourself J —Nothing, except to say that under the present conditions I cannot maintain discipline in the fort. 1 cannot do it; there is no punishment at all, no way of enforcing discipline. 81. What about the Court proceedings: were the men warned before/ —Yes, certainly, I warned them individually, and said that if they would not work they would have to be brought before a Magistrate. 82. Did you tell them when lie was coming J —No; 1 did not know when or where the Court would be held. 83. lion. Mr, Callan.] Did they not then ask that they should l>e furnished with counsel'? —No. 84. Where was the Court held! —In the R.N.Z.A. barrack-room —the district gunners' barrack-room, off the kitchen. Mr. Bailey held the Court there. I had gut a couple of representatives of the Lyttelton Press to come. On that particular day the hunger strike was on, and Captain Newell said a hunger strike must be under medical supervision, and he came. Sergeant Ryan, of the Police Force, came over to take the proceedings. The men were brought in; one man was supposed to be insensible. The gunners did not know that Captain Newell was there. so I asked Captain Newell to go and see him. He saw the man and said he was malingering. The sergeant-major said he could not get him in, so I told him to use whatever force was necessary or have the man carried in if necessary, and he was eventually brought in. The Court was held, and the men made several statements. I might say that during the proceedings they complained that they had not a copy of the Detention Regulations, and they challenged me to go into the room and see for myself. I replied that if I went into the room possibly I might not find a copy, as it might have been removed. One of the reporters called my attention to the fact that one of the detention men was passing a paper to another, evidently a copy of the regulations. That man was Williams. Sergeant Ryan said it was a copy of the regulations passed from the hands of one to the other. Either just after or just before the Court was closed Williams said he would like counsel. I do not know whether that was immediately before or immediately after, but it was virtually at the close of the proceedings. Hon. Mr. Allen then read Sergeant Ryan's statement: — "Dear sir,—As you are aware, I attended the sitting of the S.M. Court held at Fort Jervois by T. A. B. Bailey, S.M., on 2nd Julj', 1913, when a number of the young men who were in detention were charged with breaches of the regulations. I recollect when giving your evidence you were subjected to cross-examination by some of the defendants, the trend of which was to try and show that the/ did not have an opportunity of becoming conversant with the regulations as they were not supplied with copies. At the time you were under cross-examination I distinctly saw one of the defendants, Reginald Williams, with a typewritten copy of the regulations in his hand, and this he passed on to one of the others from the rear. I might also state that I escorted several of these young men to Ripa Island. On arrival tiny were taken into the office and the regulations read over to them by yourself, and after giving them a few words of advice, informed them that a copy of the regulations which you had read would be posted in each room, and if they destroyed them they would be immediately replaced, as you had an unlimited supply of them. —P. Ryan, Senior Sergeant." Witness: I can further substantiate that if. necessary by Mr. Woods and Mr. Walters. 85. Hon. Mr. Allen.] Before the Magistrates' Court sat you are quite clear that they made no application for counsel? —They made no application to me for counsel, and, furthermore, they were allowed to write any letters they liked, and they could have got counsel if they wished. 86. Hon. Mr. Gallon.] Their letters were not censored?—No, they wrote what they liked, closed, sealed, and sent away —as many as they liked. 87. Was Williams the only one that made application for counsel, and you are not quite certain when it was?— Williams was the only one. Almost immediately before or after the judgment. 88. The whole thing had gone through?— Practically the case was finished. As a matter of fact, Mr. Bailey had given his decision before they mentioned about wishing a counsel. 89. I see in the complaint here that they say no legal assistance was permitted although asked for by the lads, but it does not say when it was asked ?—They did not ask me for any logal assistance.