[K. P. TAMATI-O-ItAUKAWA.

G.—2.

80

44. Gross-examined by Mr. Welsh.'] I understand you to say that the pakeha has reduced your land in value? —The fat has been taken out of it. 45. And therefore the European should not be paid £5, but a lesser sum? —Say, £4 or less. 46. That is your opinion?— Yes. 47. Is that the opinion of the union? —Yes, because we think the land has been impoverished. 48. And the opinion of the union is that the pakeha should not be paid £5, but somethingless? —No; that is my opinion. 49. What is the opinion of the union? —That was my opinion, indorsed by them. 50. In what lands under the Act of 1881 are you a beneficiary? —Okiawa and Matarangi. I never dreamt you would put these questions. Those are the whole of the lands I have mentioned, but I am representing the whole of the lands from Waitotara to Paraninihi. 51. I understand you are the head man in the union, and the union represents the people. I desire to speak to you now in your individual capacity as a beneficiary. I understand you to say that you are a beneficiary under two grants : is that so?— Yes, and I gained one of those by succession to a deceased person. 52. What is the total area that you are entitled to as a beneficiary under these grants?—l am not able to say. 53. What is the total area in the Okiawa grant?—l only know of the 40 acres I have told you of. I cannot say the area. Mr. Zachariah: There are 3,582 acres in the grant, and there are 134 Natives interested. 54. Mr. Welsh.] Are you interested in any other land? —By succession T may have other interests, but I do not know where they are. 55. In the Ngatimauihaki grant there are 3,582 acres and 134 beneficiaries? —Whatever Mr. Zaohariah says is correct; he has the books. 56. What you -ask for, I understand, is that you should be placed in the same position as the pakeha to bid at the auction when the leases fall in? —I make the application, and ask for the land to be returned to üb. 57. What do you mean by the land to be returned to you? —I would say the 82,000 acres — the whole of the area. Under the Act of 1881 there were 18,399 acres, and I am claiming what Mr. Carroll promised us. 58. You ask that that land should be returned to the Maoris?— Yes, so that there should not be one acre lost to us. 59. How do you ask that that land should be returned? Do yoti ask that it should be given back to you to own as freeholders, or that it should be held by you under the Public Trustee as leaseholders? —So that the moneys should be open to the Maoris. 60. I understand you to say that you want the land back, and that the lending Departments should also be open to you the same as they are to the Europeans?— Yes. 61. You will remember that at present these Europeans hold the lands from the Public Trustee?— Yes. 62. Do you ask that the Maori should also hold the land from the Public Trustee, or do you ask that the Maori should hold the land without the Public Trustee? —I am not opposing the Public Trustee, but I am asking that we shall have an avenue b}' which we shall be able to get on to our lands. 63. Do you propose that the Maori should hold the land as a lessee from the Public Trustee and pay the Public Trustee rent?— Where is this trustee and the money I am asking for? The money is in the Public Trustee's hands that I am referring to, and the Public Trustee is leaning towards the Government. We want the leases to be returned to us absolutely—our lands to be given back to us. 64. Then, you do not want the Public Trustee to hold the lands at all? —No. 65. And I presume that then the Maoris will deal with the lands as they think fit? —Yes, to work them. 66. And you will divide the whole of the lands now under the Act of 1881 amongst yourselves in such manner as you think fit?— Yes; we would allocate them and receive the money we are now demanding 67. Receive what money you are now demanding?—l would not say what the particular value was, because it would be a question of value and location. 68. Whom are you demanding these moneys from? —The Government, I suppose —the money for the improvements on the land. 69. Are you referring to the money which you are asking that the Government should lend you on loan?— What we want is an advance to us in the same way as the Europeans can have it. I claim that the money should be advanced to us, because that is how the European has been able to work the land, and I claim the same right, so that we will be able to work our lands. 70. Now, when you get these lands back which you hope to do, how will you subdivide them? —Do not ask us to tell you that We will dispose of them between ourselves. We may elect to have them in big portions or small portions, just as our families decide 71. Then, I understand from you that if you get the land back you will then subdivide it in such manner as the whole body of people think best?— Yes. 72. And then you will borrow from the Government the amount of money that you may require to farm those lands?— Yes. 73. And I suppose the chiefs of the people will make that decision as to how the lands are to be subdivided?—Do you ask me that we, the chiefs, shall subdivide the land ? 74. No, Ido not ask you that —I ask you who you propose shall divide the lands when you get them?—We will. 75. Do you mean the people will divide the lands or the chiefs of the people?— All of us. There are no chiefs; we are nil one. The committee will do it,