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to be ill-treated in a workshop. In fact, there are a great many instances where the men put up with more from the boys than they should. 33. Do you not think it is safe and wise to provide against ill-treatment. You might travel for years and' years without seeing it, but then a case might arise ?—The old Apprentice Act amply provides for that. 34. Clause 22, subsection (1) : " Names of probationers or apprentices to be posted in workshop " ? —That is provided for in the Factories Act. 35. Subsection (2): " Penalty " ?—lt is all penalties on the master and nothing on the apprentice. I think they should be equally on both sides if there are to be any penalties at all. 36. You think there should be a penalty provided for wilful disobedience, &c. ?—Yes, certainly. 37. But subsection (3) of clause 21 provides for that ?—But that would infringe the Truck Act. 38. If this becomes law, apprentice and master would be exempted from the Truck Act so far as the carrying out of this Act is concerned. Clause 24 : " Governor may appoint inspectors "?— That is where the delicate point comes in. For instance, in our trade the Inspector would be to all intents and purposes useless unless he was an expert. 39. The Inspector, of course, in any case could not be expected to be an expert, because he would only see that the provisions of the Act were carried out. He would be guided by the parents' or master's report ?—We have got the Stipendiary Magistrate now. The case would have to go eventually before him. The Inspector is a third party, and would be most objectionable. 40. This clause deals simply with the appointment of Inspector ? —I say the Inspector would be a perfect dummy unless he had some knowledge of the trade. For instance, a boy might complain to him that he was not being taught any portion of the trade. How could that man deal with that ? Why should you have such a clause ? The best thing to do would be to strike it out. 41. You object to clause 24?—1 do. 42. Clause 25 (a): " Define terms of apprenticeship" ?—Of course, ours are defined. 43. Subsection (b) : "Declare whether any specified trade, &c, is a handicraft"?—l most decidedly, object to apprentice any boys to work outside the trade. 44. Subsection (2): " The wages payable to handicraft apprentices shall vary with and according to any such declaration or alteration" ?—Well, I should take this to read also as coining under the heading that, in the case of apprentices, the maximum wage might be £2 to-day, £1 10s. the next year, or £2 10s., and the apprentices' wages would vary accordingly. 45. Yes, if they get a percentage rate they must take their chance of a fall as well as a rise in the ordinary wages rate. Clause 29 : " ' Solitary confinement' struck out of the Act of 1875"?— That is like a good portion of the Bill. It is there, and you do not wish to enforce it. 46. That is doing away with solitary confinement ?—lt has never done any harm yet. I think it is a very good proviso, nevertheless. A caution sometimes has almost as much effect as real treatment. With regard to the Bill as a whole :as you are aware, our general meeting in Christchurch took place last week, and this Bill came up for examination, and the unanimous opinion expressed was, that if the Bill passed in anything like its present form we should either have no apprentices or should have to insist on a premium. 47. Was that resolution passed by your Council ?—By the Boot Manufacturers' Association. You will receive a letter from the Secretary embodying the opinion of the Boot Manufacturers' Association on this subject. 48. Speaking generally of the Bill, do you think it desirable or otherwise ?—I think it is most undesirable. 49. But if modified in the way you have suggested ?—I do not think you could improve on the present law. 50. You object to the Bill and think it is not required ? —I do. We have always bound our apprentices, and have a form of indenture. In former years we had a great deal of trouble with our apprentices. When they had served two or three years they were always running away. Then I had an indenture-form drawn up by a solicitor, and since that has come into force we have had no trouble whatever. But, apart from that, there is not likely to be any trouble so long as the Federated Bootmakers' Union and the Boot Manufacturers' Association work in harmony. I think if all trades were to take up the position that we have done the Conciliation Bill would not be required, nor the Apprentice Bill. lam quite sure of that. Both sides can speak feelingly as to that. Altogether, we are in a position to thresh out all differences in a more effectual way than if any third party came in. It has been better for employer and employed. We have for the past three years had regular work, so far as the trade would justify us, and there has been no friction. We have been settled for twelve months, and can go on for another twelve months without fear of interruption. We are there equally balanced, and if any dispute occurs means are provided to meet it. 51. From what you say, I take it that you suggest that some sort of provision should be made whereby each trade could be brought together on the same lines as the bootmakers ? —Yes, that is my opinion. lam speaking from three years' experience, which has proved that our arrangement has worked out to the satisfaction of both sides, and, until you have made some such provision, you never need expect to have peace and harmony. No Government and no legislation will ever be in a position to enforce anything. Of course, you can take a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink. John Kikkcaldie examined. 52. The Chairman.] I presume you have made yourself well acquainted, Mr. Kirkcaldie, with the Master and Apprentice Bill now before Parliament. In order to get the Bill revised before next Parliament, and, to make as complete a measure of it as possible, we have decided to take evidence from both sides —from employer and employed alike—and to hear objections and suggestions, with