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In regard to clause 10, as to remuneration, I think it is too high, in proportion to the losses we have to bear in teaching young people their trade, and the stuff spoiled. 2. What would you advise, a percentage rate, a weekly wage, or that it be left open? —I do not think it should be a weekly wage, but I think the percentage here too high. I think some scale should be fixed, but not so much as this. 3. What is your opinion about apprentices and indenturing?—l find it more satisfactory for the lads and myself not to apprentice them. I have laid down a certain scale of wages. 4. Do you think a lad should be a certain time at any particular branch of the trade before he could be said to be a journeyman ? —Oh yes, I should say so. In clause 18, it is mentioned that any young person, before being bound as apprentice, may be employed at any handicraft on probation fora period not exceeding one month. I think that is too short, I think it should be three months. In clause 20, I think the power of the Inspector would be very arbitrary, and would lead to magnifying evils that would never come to the Court if he had not such a power to come in and cross-question the boys whenever he liked about real or supposed evils. 5. Could you suggest any amendment by which it could be made workable ? —I believe in clause 21, by which a boy may appeal against ill-treatment; I think that is quite searching, and would be satisfactory enough. 6. Supposing clause 21 is retained, you think clause 20 should come out ?—I think so. 7. Are there any other clauses you take exception to? —No. I have looked over it carefully. I think the Bill would militate against both employers and employes, and if it came into law would be an irksome and chafing one to work under. I think if it became law it would be best to modify it as I have suggested. 8. Can you suggest any general principle for apprenticing boys ? —lt does not work favourably at present. In the meantime Ido not think that we can have less than three men to one boy. The difficulty is to find employment. We have far more applications for boys than we can employ if we were willing. John Peaece Luke examined. Mr. Luke : My name is John Pearce Luke. I am an engineer. Taking the Bill all round Ido not think it is wanted in our line of business, and I think it will act very prejudicially all round. Up to the present time, as far as I know, there have been no serious differences between masters and apprentices. In the Bill you provide that each apprentice shall be thoroughly taught his business. Well, any firm, wishing to do that which is fair and right, would teach the lad his business ; but I think it will raise up a lot of difficulties, if a lad fancies he is not being properly taught and calls for inquiry, putting his employer to a lot of inconvenience and bother; whereas, again and again, the apprentice may, through carelessness or wilfulness, give his master cause for complaint, which the master would consider a trivial thing to make the subject of an inquiry. Viewing it in my own way I should not like to go before a Magistrate, after having been insulted as I have been in our shop as much as any man. But during sixteen years we have only dismissed two apprentices. They took themselves away through insulting behaviour and general carelessness, and, though they wished it, we would not take them back. Employers would not care to raise any objections; and yet apprentices might often be very insulting and very nasty, and put the master to a lot of inconvenience. You have got to chastise him by putting him back to other work for a time, or reporting to his parents. 9. The Chairman.) What is your opinion about having boys indentured? —I may tell you plainly that we used to bind our boys ; but we found that a boy whom we considered likely to be the best-behaved lad, coming from a good family, very often turned out quite otherwise, took the reins into his own hands and disorganized the shop, but being an apprentice we could not clear him out till the last year of his time. Some of them are very indifferent about getting on. It happens at times that a job comes in that you want done quickly, say, mending mill machinery, or repairing a steamboat. If you tell the apprentices that you want them to " pull out," so as to hurry things, you will perhaps get a mouthful of " cheek." If you go down the town and put men on, so as to get the thing done quickly, you get insulted by the boys, because they say you will not give them a show. Then a boy very often causes a lot of damage, in this way, in learning the engineering: J?or instance, a man will make a pattern in a pattern-shop. Then it is put into the casting-shop, and then it is put into certain machines and machined. The apprentice would possibly be put on to that job, in accordance with this Bill, and he would very likely spoil the job at a cost of say, one hundred pounds. Our experience is that by the time an apprentice has gone through his time, what with breakages and one thing or another, the benefit you get from him during his time is nearly lost. 10. Would there be any difference between the work done by the bound apprentice or the lad without an indenture ?—No ; as a matter of fact you can do nothing. If a lad makes a mistake or does any damage, you have to grin and bear it; you may be annoyed and give him a lecture, bat you forget it yourself after a time. The chief inconvenience in this country is the limited quantity of work to be done. The work fluctuates too, and, though there may be only constant work for three months of the year, the employer is paying the apprentice the whole of the time. And then when a job comes in in a hurry, and you want to put better men on, so as to get the work done quickly, the apprentice will object, and say, " Why should not Ibe put on ?" Then the apprentice will go down and make a complaint against his master. We would not make a complaint against the apprentice, as we would consider it most trivial. 11. Hon. Mr. Beeves.} But how does this Bill bring that about? —Well, you make a provision that the apprentice may bring the employer before the Magistrate at any time ; so that you may have to appear at the Court at any time, just as the result of a freak of your boys. 12. That cannot be your experience. Is it your experience that you will always be down at