Or.— 4C

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money for the Poutama survey had been paid by the working of the coal. What I objected to was that he did not pay the rent, and he did not go on with the working of the coal. After we found that he did not pay the rent we thought he had no right to occupy the land. We objected to his killing the horses and pigs of the Maoris for running on the land, although he had not paid the rent, and the grass had been sown by the Maoris. He drove Maori horses on to the sand, and they were drowned. There were seven horses drowned ; they were driven round a bluff at low water, and were drowned in trying to return when the tide was in. Some of the people complained. I took no notice of these actions of Jones's. What I complained of was his failing to pay the rent. If he had paid the rent and worked the coal I would have thought he had the right to drive off the horses, but I would not have thought he had the right to occupy the land for fifty-six years, but only until there had been money enough to pay the Poutama survey and Court expenses. Last year Jones wanted to alter the terms to £100 a year instead of £25, and 10 per cent, on the coal. I then became suspicious of him. I and Pumipi, Te Huia, and Eimarata met at Hughes's office in New Plymouth, when Jones showed us £100, which he said was for the rent, but he did not give it to us. We thought it was for four years' rent at £25 a year. I said, " Give it to Huia and Pumipi." He said, " No; this is for the increased rent," and that ho would put it into the bank. I said, " Put it into the bank in the names of Te Huia and Kauparera ; " but he said " No." He gave us no money —not a penny. We thought that ho meant to keep the money back from us if he had trouble with the lease. I knew then that he was doing wrong. Then I put him away. I told him I had nothing more to do with him. Jones got some coal out, but it was thrown into the river by Heremia. He has not spent any money on improvements to the land. Jones used to pay me a pound or two occasionally, when I was travelling in his service, to pay my expenses. 1 gave £15 to Jones once to pay his expenses to Wellington with ; I have never got it back. He has had the use of my horses for nothing. If you reckon the use of my horses, and other things, he has had more from me than I have had from him. Whatever I have had from him was for paying expenses while I was travelling for him. I have had no payment or rent for the land whatever. • When.we went up to Mokau there were two casks of beer on the steamer, about thirty-six gallons each, they belonged to Jones; the provisions and beer were put on shore, waiting until Heremia should come down from Totoro, but they were the property of Jones. The day after, Heremia and the others arrived there. Jones presented all the provisions and beer to Heremia. The Natives first had a meeting amongst themselves ; that was before the distribution of the food. The next morning, Heremia gave the two casks of beer to me ; the lease had not been signed at that time; that was while the Maoris were discussing the matter. I gave one of the casks to the Natives from inland, and one to those who lived at the Heads; only one was drunk on the day the lease was signed. The lease was signed inside my house, and the casks of beer stood outside; an}' one could have a drink, whether he signed or not, that day. The beer was run into buckets, and the buckets! carried round, with a pannikin to drink from. The only Native whom I saw drunk was a woman called Parehuakarua. I saw her lying down outside the storehouse. lam sure she was drunk, as she was fighting with her husband. We considered that the beer was given us in celebration of the signing of the lease ;it was a present. We were not charged for it. I saw Takerau sign ; I would not like to say that he was drunk, as there are so many different appearances of drunkenness. We only drank one cask of beer on the day of the signing, the second one was drunk on the next day. I did not see Parehuakarua sign. I cannot say whether it was before or after she signed that she was drunk. I did not see all of them sign whose names are to the lease. Te Huia was present at Mokau on the day of the signing. He came with Heremia, and stayed as long as Heremia did; I saw him there, and saw him sign the lease. Some of the Natives whose names appear to the lease were not at Terainga on that day. I did not see Te Pukekipa there that day. Ngahirakawas not there, she was at Parihaka at that time. Taiaroa was at Mokau, but I did not see him sign. Ido not believe he would have done so, as he belonged to Parihaka, and opposed the lease. Ngawhakeke was at Mokau, but Ido not think she signed. Her work was to cook food that day; she had plenty of opportunity to drink if she wished to do so. I know that she did not go in to sign on the first day of the signing. I remember calling her to sign, but she did not come in. I cannot say whether she signed afterwards or not. Te lanui was there, but Ido not think he signed, as he was a disciple of Te Whiti. As Te lanui did not sign for himself, I do not believe ho would have signed as guardian for Ketetahi, a child then about six years old, whoso name appears on the deed as having been signed for him. After the first day of the signing there was a good deal of drinking going on. I cannot say whether any of those who did not sign the first day signed afterwards or not. Mr. Grace can speak as to that. I remember sending a telegram to the Chief Judge about Annie Walker. Jones asked George Stockman and me to get her to sign the lease. She refused to sign, as she said it was too late now, as the law had been altered. That was why I sent the telegram—to know if it was legal for her to sign. When I said in the telegram, "The people were waiting to sign," I referred to Annie Walker only. I said the people were waiting to sign, because I thought she would sign if the Chief Judge said it was right to do so. It was Jones who told me to telegraph to the Chief Judge, because Major Brown said to me that any one signing now would be breaking the law, and would be punished. It was Jones who told me to send the telegram, and told me what to say ; that was why I said the people were waiting; there was no one there but Annie. Ido not think Annie would have signed even if the Chief Judge had not replied as he did. I was at Mokau Heads at the time the coal was thrown into the river b ; Heremia. Heremia has told me that it was because of the objections to the lease that he had the coal thrown into the river. I had nothing to do with it. As a chief I have mana over the whole of the land, but Heremia had more right over it. I claim an interest in the land up to Totoro. It the land was subdivided, I claim to be in each subdivision.