JOINT AGRICULTURAL, PASTORAL, AND STOCK COMMITTEE.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1896 Session I, I-09

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1896. NEW ZEALAND.

JOINT AGRICULTURAL, PASTORAL, AND STOCK COMMITTEE.

REPORT ON THE PETITION OF THE CANTERBURY AGRICULTURAL AND PASTORAL ASSOCIATION, TOGETHER WITH THE PETITION, THE EVIDENCE TAKEN THEREON, AND APPENDICES.

(Report brought up 22nd September, 1896, and ordered to be printed.)

EEPOET. Fbozen Meat. Youk Committee have had under consideration the petition of the Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association asking inquiry as to the conduct of the frozen-meat trade by the railways, .and whether the charges can be reduced. Your Committee decided that the magnitude of the colony's interest in the frozen-meat trade justified extending the inquiry, and accordingly the whole question of the frozen-meat industry has been investigated, and your Committee have taken evidence not only as to the matter raised in the petition as to the railway charges and conduct of the carriage, but also as to how the business of freezing is conducted in the colony and while in transit to England, and further as to its treatment on arrival there. With these objects the Committee have taken the evidence of the managers of most of the principal meat-freezing establishments in the colony, and of other persons having special knowledge of the whole subject. The inquiry has embraced, — The treatment of the stock prior to slaughtering for freezing. The treatment of the frozen carcases, and the time deemed necessary bo retain the carcases in the freezing-works prior to shipment. The railway arrangements for the carriage of the meat to the vessels. The arrangements at the vessels for receipt of meat and testing its condition. The conditions of the chambers of the vessels before meat is taken in. The regulations for insuring the maintenance of proper temperature during the passage to England. The discharge of the meat on arrival in London. Your Committee undertook this inquiry with the object of tracing as far as possible how the very serious losses that have occurred to cargoes of frozen meat have arisen, and how such can be remedied in the future. Appended to this report is the printed evidence taken, and from that evidence your Committee have come to the following conclusions, the adoption of which is recommended: —■ That inspection in the colony is necessary. That such inspection shall be performed by officers selected by an association of the freezing companies in the colony. That failing the freezing companies associating within six months of the passing of legislation and making the necessary appointments for inspection, the Governor shall ta.ke the necessary steps to secure efficient inspection. That regulations shall provide the time which cattle or sheep intended for export as frozen meat shall be killed after arrival at the freezing establishment. I—l. 9.

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That no carcase shall be removed from the freezing-chamber for shipment until after at least six days for cattle, and three days for sheep. That a certificate that the above regulations have been complied with shall be given by the inspector when the meat leaves the freezing-works, and shall be produced at the vessel before delivery is taken. That the vessel shall have the responsibility of passing all meat received, and shall reject any doubtful carcases. . That inspection of the freezing-chambers of vessels shall be made prior to meat being taken in, and a certificate given. Before giving such certificate the inspector shall satisfy himself that the insulation is sufficiently cooled. That all vessels carrying frozen meat shall be fitted with self-registering thermometers; and that, in addition, the captain and engineer of all vessels shall daily examine and separately record the temperature of the chambers. That inspection of meat cargoes on arrival of vessels in London shall be provided for ; and it shall be the duty of such inspector to report the condition the cargo has arrived in; the temperature recorded in the chambers during the voyage ; and shall report in the case of damaged cargo how such damage has arisen. It shall further be the duty of the inspecting officer to watch the discharge of the cargo, and he should have power to so regulate the discharge as to prevent meat being exposed and returned to the vessel's chambers. Your Committee believe it necessary that the above should be given effect to, to secure the meat industry being relieved from the serious depreciation now experienced from the frequent arrival of damaged cargoes of meat. It would be advantageous if the association, when formed, should send an officer, at the cost of the association, with such cargoes as it may be thought desirable, with the object of obtaining independent information as to the treatment of frozen-meat cargoes on the voyage, and reporting •on the same. A great advantage would be gained if the dock companies could be induced to erect landingstores, where the meat could be examined and the various brands separated. With respect to the railway arrangements for the carriage of meat in the colony, our inquiry has tended to show that the Railway authorities have, in most instances, given reasonable facilities. That special consideration should be given in freight-charges to companies whose works are at a long distance from port. Also, that the trucks in use are satisfactory, but that additional rolling-stock is required. We desire, however, to express our opinion that it should be an instruction to the Railway Department to give speedy transit to meat trains, and stoppage for any lengthened time in transit should be avoided. As to the charges made for carriage of meat, we do not consider them excessive, but that the charges should insure special consideration for meat-trains. Your Committee also recommends that the Government should endeavour to arrange with the Wellington-Manawatu Railway Company so that the at present heavy charges on frozen meat over the combined lines may be reduced. Your Committee took evidence as to the thawing of frozen meat, and heard Mr. Walter Peck on his-process. Your Committee considers the question of great importance, and recommends the matter to the Government for careful consideration. That the evidence shows the greater part of the damage to frozen meat in transit has arisen through improper treatment on board ship and during discharge in London. Dairy Industry. Your Committee have examined expert witnesses, representing various parts of the colony, on the above-named industry, and were gratified to learn that the prospects are hopeful, and the appliances provided for carrying on the work greatly improved: especially is this the case so far as the railway carriage is concerned, and also in the insulation of the trucks used for conveyance of butter and cheese. The opinion of one witness was stroogly in favour of a reduction in the railway rates charged on small quantities of butter; he urged that quantities amounting to one ton should be carried at the same rate as that charged for four tons, and explained that there were very few dairy factories in the colony with the necessary cool-storage accommodation to hold this product in good condition until four tons were produced. Your Committee are of opinion that the Railway Department should comply with the request of the smaller factories by meeting them, as far as possible, on the question of reduced rates on the carriage of small parcels. Committee have carefully considered the proposal to erect central depots for cool storage at such places as Patea or Hawera ; but are of opinion that the necessity which may have existed for such storage is obviated by the establishment of freezing-chambers at New Plymouth and Waitara. Your Committee heard evidence in support of the appointment of a qualified milk-tester in the respective dairy districts of the colony, also that the settlers were dissatisfied with the present system which generally obtains. Your Committee were further informed that a strong feeling prevails in consequence of the alleged inability, under the law, to grade butter as best factory when made by an individual settler, even though modern appliances were provided and a first-class article produced. Your Committee, however, are satisfied that ample power and permission for this purpose is granted by section 16 of the Dairy Industry Act of 1894. Your Committee were very pleased to learn that the arrrangements generally for handling, storing, and shipping dairy produce were of a satisfactory character.

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The evidence satisfied your Committee that the principle of grading has had a beneficial result to the trade. At the same time, it was made abundantly clear that the Home buyer relied much more upon a sample test than upon brands denoting the respective grades. Evidence was also adduced to show that the question of double railage was adversely affecting the trade on the west coast of the North Island; and, in the opinion of your Committee, the Government should endeavour to arrange with the Wellington-Manawatu Railway Company, with a view of removing the anomalous charge indicated-. On the whole, your Committee are satisfied that the Railway Department is doing its best to meet the requirements of the trade, and the evidence of the Hon. the Minister for Railways and his officers satisfied your Committee that the department is anxious to foster the best interests of the dairy industry. Your Committee also heard lengthy evidence on the subject of the transit of butter and cheese in the ocean-going steamers, and are satisfied that great improvements ought to be effected in this important particular. A great deal of evidence was taken as to the disposal of the produce in London and elsewhere, and your Committee recommend the same to the careful consideration of the Government. Your Committee desire to represent to the Minister for Agriculture that Mr. Thomas Mackenzie is proceeding shortly to London to act as agent for several farmers' associations in the colony, and that they recommend the Agent-General should be advised to avail himself of Mr. Mackenzie's services in dealing with subjects that may arise connected with the farming interests of the colony. J. D. Oemond, 22nd September, 1896. Chairman.

PETITION. To the Honourable the House of Eepresentatives of New Zealand in Parliament assembled. The petition of the Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association of Canterbury respectfully showeth: — 1. That the export of frozen meat is a matter of the greatest importance to the farmers of New Zealand, and especially to this part of the colony. That, but for the relief which this outlet for their produce has afforded, the depression among agriculturists would have been much greater than it actually is. 2. That the producers of this important export are subject to ever-increasing competition from countries whence the transit to the English market is more rapid and less costly than from this colony ; and whereas in the Australian Colonies greater facilities are afforded for the shipment of their produce than are given in New Zealand. That the result of the above conditions has been a diminution in the returns from frozen meat, which presses very severely on the producers of this colony. 3. That the depreciation in the value of meat for export has been met by concessions in the matter of freezing-charges and sea freight, but for which the trade must have absolutely collapsed. The following statement shows the amount of these concessions, the top line being the first charges and the lower the present:— Freight. Freezing. Insurance. London Charges. Wharfage. Railage. 2d. per pound, fd. per pound. 10 per cent. a.c. fd. per pound. 2s. per ton. Bs. 6d. per ton. Id. „ id. „ 3J „ Id. „ 4d. „ Bs. 6d. „ Since the inception of the trade the value of our meat on the London market has depreciated about 40 per cent., and we are threatened with further depreciation through the Australian competition. 4. That in railway charges alone no reduction—at least, in this part of the colony —has been made, although the value of the meat on which these charges are imposed is not much more than half what it was when the present rates were fixed. The percentage of the value of the frozen meat which is absorbed by the railway is now nearly double what it was when the present rates were fixed. 5. These rates were not fixed for frozen meat but for fresh meat, of which the ordinary railwaytruck will carry a much smaller quantity than it does of frozen meat. The charges for a truck of fresh meat for thirteen miles (the distance of the Belfast and Islington factories from Lyttelton) is 18s. Bd.; for grain, 19s. 2d.; for a truck-load of frozen meat the charge is no less than £1 9s. Bd., while all the loading and unloading is done by the freezing companies and not by the railway staff. 6. That the railways draw from the agriculturists whose produce is forwarded through the factories above named a revenue of about £30,000 a year. 7. That reductions, considerable in extent, have been made in the railway charges on other agricultural produce, but no concession has been made on frozen meat. 8. That your petitioners respectfully submit the time has arrived when this produce should be carried, as is the other agricultural produce, at the rates provided for Class B in the railway tariff. 9. That your petitioners are informed and believe that for some localities important concessions have been made, while in others, as in Canterbury, rates continue to be levied which constitute an excessive burden on this important industry.

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10. That, besides high railway rates, the trade in frozen meat in Canterbury is exposed to serious and unnecessary difficulties, (a.) That the trucks in which the meat is now carried are faulty in construction and not effectively insulated, (b.) That the meat after leaving the factories is often subjected to serious delay in transport to the ship's side. While the distance from the Belfast and Islington factories to Lyttleton does not exceed thirteen miles, it is frequently as much as six hours after leaving the factory before the meat can be put on board ship. This exposes the meat to risk of serious injury ; and there is good reason for believing that the damage to recent shipments, of which complaint is being made, is attributable to this circumstance. 11. Your petitioners respectfully suggest that the freezing companies should, as in England, be given the option of providing their own properly-insulated trucks, and be charged a reasonable haulage-rate for conveyance to the port of shipment. 12. Your petitioners pray that your honourable House will take the above facts into your favourable consideration and adopt such steps as may appear to you calculated to remedy the grievance which they have described, and which at present hinder the development of a very important colonial industry. E. Hbaton Ehodbs, Bth August, 1896. Chairman, Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Wednesday, 12th August, 1896. —(Hon. Mr. Obmond, Chairman.) Sir John Hall, K.C.M.G., examined. 1. Hon. the Chairman.] You have been made aware of this petition : Would you be good enough to make any statement you think proper in regard to the subject it refers to ?—I am a member of the committee of the Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association. They prepared this petition after conference with managers of the freezing companies and others intimately acquainted with the subject. We took a great deal of trouble to be absolutely correct in our statements. The first thing I wish to draw attention to is the increasing competition with other countries, to which the farmers in Canterbury interested in frozen meat are subject. Every day increases the quantity of meat exported from Argentina for the English market; they are but half the distance from England that we are. In Victoria special facilities have been granted by the Government for the carriage of frozen meat. The Government carry frozen meat from Denilquin to Melbourne, two hundred miles, at a very low rate. I cannot state exactly what the freight is, but I understand that it is very low indeed. The Government provides insulated cars so perfect that frozen meat is delivered in Melbourne without the slightest injury. If I am not misinformed they also provide cool storage in Melbourne until the meat is shipped. 2. The railway?—No; the Government. lam not speaking with absolute certainty. The meat itself is inspected by Government officers. 3. Before being sent on board ?—Yes; to see that it is put on board in proper condition. The depreciation in value of our frozen meat within the last few years in the Home market has been very great. This has been met, to some extent, by reductions on the part of all those concerned in dealing with it, except the New Zealand Railways. The ocean freight has been reduced from 2d. to Id. per pound ; freezing charges, from fd. to Jd.; insurance, from 10 per cent, to 3-| and less; London charges, from f-d. to Jd. per lb. ; wharfage, from 2s. to 4d. the ton. The railage, however, in Canterbury, from Belfast or Islington to Lyttelton was originally Bs. 6d., and it still remains at that amount. In railway charges no reduction whatever has been made. 4. Hon. JE. Richardson.] What is the distance ? 5. Mr. McLachlan: From Islington and Belfast the distance is between twelve and thirteen miles. 6. Hon. the Chairman. I Could you tell us the distance which you have referred to on the Australian line ?—I think it is about two hundred miles. A point to which I think the attention of the Committee should be called is that the rate of Bs. 6d. was not fixed for frozen but for fresh meat. Every truck would carry a much larger quantity of frozen meat than of fresh meat. The charge for a truck-load of fresh meat for thirteen miles is 18s. 8d; for grain, 19s. 2d.: whereas a truck of frozen meat is charged no less than £1 9s. Bd. 7. Does the department discharge into the boat ?—No ; in grain they have to discharge ; in the case of frozen meat it is all done by the company; all loading and unloading is done by the freezing companies, and not by the railway staff; and the railways in Canterbury derive a revenue of not less than £30,000 a year from the freezing companies. The charges on all other agricultural produce have been reduced from time to time, but not those on frozen meat. What the Agricultural and Pastoral Association ask is that frozen meat should be put on the same footing as other agricultural produce and placed in Class E in the railway tariff. 8. You would have it put into a special class?— Besides the question of railway-rates, we complain that the meat is exposed to serious damage in railway transit. You will find when you get the evidence of the managers of freezing-works that the railway-trucks are faulty in construction ; they are imperfectly insulated ; also the meat after leaving the factory is often exposed to great delay in transport. While the distance from Belfast and Islington to Lyttelton is only thirteen miles it is frequently six hours before the meat can be put on board —in one case it was between twelve and thirteen hours. 9. Caused by the railway? —Yes; being attached to the ordinary trains it has to take its chance, and is carried at a time of day when the sun has considerable power, and it has to be put on board at a time when it is exposed to the effect of the sun. The impression prevails among freezing companies that the serious damage which has recently been reported results from injury the meat receives in transit from the factory before it is put on board. Mr. G. Anderson, manager of the Christchurch Meat Company, will give you his reasons for that belief. This is a very serious matter, which I hope the Committee will consider. Some of the companies would be glad to provide their own trucks, as is done in England. 10. Do you know that is done in many parts of New Zealand ? —No; I was not aware of it. 11. It is done in Hawke's Bay by Nelson Brothers, who have their own trucks?—l was not aware of it. These are the principal points to which I think the attention of the Committee should be directed. If the Committee would like to learn the amount of damage to frozen meat that has been reported recently, I would refer to the reports that have been received from England. The information can be supplied by Mr. Ritchie, the Secretary to the Department of Agriculture. The Government have an agent in London who watches the discharge of the meat. He has sent very serious reports of the condition in which the meat is landed. 2—l. 9.

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12. Do you say a Government officer?— Yes. 12a. Who is that ?—Mr. Grey. With leave of the Committee I will cite a few cases. On the " Tongariro " 1,000 carcases were ordered by the health officer to be destroyed, as unfit for human food. I myself had 450 lambs on board this vessel, and only six of them were landed in a sound condition. 13. You say that Mr. Bitchie has official information on this subject ?—Yes. Then, on board the " Tekoa " and "Tokomaru," several hundred were condemned. The "Euapehu" and the " Aotea " landed their meat in an unsatisfactory condition. The " Aorangi" had 800 condemned by the health officer ; the " Buteshire " 500. In addition to that the dairy-produce was landed in an unsatisfactory condition. 14. The shipping companies consider that the damage arises before the meat is shipped ?—lt left the works in proper condition. The manager of the Islington Company is distinctly of opinion that, while damage to the meat may not be perceptible when being put on board, it gets a certain amount of moisture on the trucks, and this would result in injury found afterwards upon examination of the meat in London. 15. Mr. McLachlan.] You attribute the damage to imperfect insulation and being too long in transit from the factory to the ship before being put on board ?—Also to being put on board at a time of day when the meat is exposed to the sun. What I beg to suggest is that, as in Australia frozen meat and dairy-produce is inspected by Government officers, the time has arrived when in New Zealand it is desirable that there should be Government inspection of frozen meat before going on board. I think also there should be Government inspection of the factories themselves. At present it is often a matter of dispute between the shipping and the freezing companies whether the damage is done before the frozen meat is delivered to. the ship, or afterwards when it is in charge of the shipping companies. 16. Hon. the Chairman.] Would you carry that to the extent of grading ? —Grading meat is a very difficult point to agree upon. 17. I thought from the tenor of your remarks you would go to that extent?—l would like to have more expert evidence on that subject than we have at present. 18. Mr. McLachlan.] You would be content with Government inspection ? —I would have thorough inspection ; but I do not at present go to the length of including grading. What we want is to be sure that the meat is shipped in proper condition. lam told there is now so much competition among shipmasters for meat that, although they have to give a receipt to the effect that the meat is shipped in good and proper order, they are very lenient in this respect, and rather than reject meat they would take it through in a condition anything but desirable for shipment. Ido not think it would be an unfair thing if a small charge were put on the companies for the payment of the inspection. 19. And to the Home-bound shippers?— Yes ; the cost would not fall in reality on the freezing companies; it would fall eventually on the farmer whose produce is being diminished in value. 20. Mr. Mills.] Do the insurance companies suffer much?— Very heavily. 21. Would they not contribute ?■—-They would probably say they contributed in the form of charging a low premium. 22. Hon. E. Richardson.] In that report to which you have drawn the attention of the Committee, does it state whether the carcases are damaged in the port they are shipped from ?—I think there is one instance. My own belief is that a good deal comes from Canterbury. 23. Mr. McLachlan.) Has there been no defect discovered on board the ships ? —I do not know that it has been actually discovered; generally, my impression is that the insulation on board ship becomes imperfect in the course of time ; it is not sufficiently closely looked after in London. 24. Is that the case in old ships more than in new ?—lt would take place in ships that are new as well as old. The insulation should be constantly watched and made good. The managers of freezing-works would tell the Committee that damage also takes place during transit from the works to the ship. You will get fuller information on that subject from the managers when they come before the Committee. 25. Mr. G. W. Eussell.] About two years ago an inquiry was called for, when this matter was gone into pretty fully. Some improvement took place, and continued for about a year or eighteen months; but now the railways are falling off again. 26. Mr. Fraser.] The damage ascertained at Home in discharging cargo was found to be greater in the old ships than in the new ones ? —The " Tongariro " is an old ship. 27. Mr. Buddo.] If the freezing associations had a considerable increase of truck-accommoda-tion, would they be in a position to transport the meat during the night ?—I think that is what they want. The meat-trucks should not be attached to passenger-trains; there should be a special train timed to arrive in Lyttelton at an early hour in the morning and travelling at night. 28. Do you think that would obviate a considerable amount of the damage done now ? —Yes ; but I think the insulation of the trucks should be looked after also. lam distinctly of opinion that this has become a matter of importance. 29. Is there a periodical inspection of the insulation on board ships or steamers ?—lt is supposed to be done, but whether the defects are remedied or not is another question. 30. Mr. Mills.] Is it intended that the final inspection should take place in New Zealand?—l would have it at both ends ; there should be a thorough inspection to see that the meat goes on board in a proper condition. 31. You mean a Government inspector?— Yes. 32. Mr. McLachlan.] At the freezing-works ?—Yes, also at the freezing-works. I would urge on the Committee that this is a matter of great importance to the farmers of New Zealand; it is not of such serious importance to the runholder who carries merino sheep as to the farmer who grows mutton adapted to the English market. He is exposed to increasing competition from

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Australia and Argentina. Last year this was diminished by the drought in Australia, but there is every prospect that next year it will be very severe. 33. Mr. G. W. Russell.] The freight on butter is actually a shilling less than that on frozen meat —that is, on the same distance. Can you give the Committee any idea what is the relative cost to the Railway Department of carrying these two articles ? I understand that from Belfast the freight is now Bs. 6d. a ton for frozen meat, while for butter being carried the same distance the freight is only 7s. 6d. In addition to this, frozen meat is all loaded and unloaded by the freezing companies. 34. lion, the Chairman.] Do you know, Sir John Hall, the relative charges?— That information you will be better able to obtain from the managers who may give evidence before the Committee.

Fbiday, 14th August, 1896. —(Mr. Lawet, Chairman.) Mr. I. Gibbs examined. The Chairman: The scope of this inquiry is to consider the methods adopted in shipping frozen meat—the insulation aboard the vessel, cool-storage, freights, and, in short, everything connected with the carriage of such goods to the Home or foreign market. The Committee will be happy to hear what you have to say on these matters. Hon. Mr. Johnston : I might say, perhaps, that Mr. Gibbs is the general manager for the Shipping Company, and is in a position to speak from experience. Mr. Gibbs : I thought I would be asked some questions; I shall be happy to answer any that are put to me. 1. The Chairman.] Will you be good enough to give us the benefit of your experience on these matters? — When the manager or other officer comes into possession of the meat, it is his duty to see that it is in a proper state to be shipped, and to take every care possible that it is properly carried in a proper state to London. 2. Mr. Fraser.] There have been complaints that the meat, at some time or other between the freezing and its arrival in London, gets bad. The Committee is desirous of being made aware who is liable for this. We have been told by some that it is wholly owing to imperfect insulation in the course of the voyage, while others say it is caused in transit between the freezing-works and the ship ?—I can speak as to insulation on board the steamer. The hold is thoroughly examined before starting to see that the insulation is as perfect as it can be. On the completion of the discharge of the cargo in London the holds are again examined by an expert; they are tested by boring, and any defective insulation is repaired. The refrigerating machinery is also subjected to an examination, and all repairs are completed before going to sea. The steamer then loads a general cargo and comes to the colony. On the completion of her discharge here the holds are again examined, and any repairs necessary to remedy defective insulation are executed. In Wellington the examination is made by Mr. Croll, who is chief engineer of the Wellington Meat Export Company; in Lyttelton, the vessels are examined by Lloyd's agent; the surveyor of the Underwriters' Association attends during the loading and takes the temperature of the holds—that is, so far as insulation is concerned. So far as the shipping company is concerned, everything possible is done "to insure insulation and the refrigerating machinery being in an efficient condition to carry the meat. During the loading the officers of the steamer examine, as carefully as they can, the condition the meat is in when it is being taken on board. Occasionally we have to reject meat and send it back to the works. We examine the meat as far as possible, for it is almost impossible to subject it to a very close examination. As we are loading five or six thousand carcases in a day the examination that takes place can only be of a superficial character. Considering the very large number of sheep we have carried, and carried in an efficient condition, I think the damage to frozen meat will have to be looked for in another direction than on board the steamers. Occasionally it happens that the machinery breaks down on the homeward voyage ; but that is unavoidable. Of course, if the machinery stops the temperature may rise ; but that is a liability that is unavoidable when a breakdown of machinery occurs. 3. Mr. Buchanan.] You tell us that in Wellington the ship's hold is examined by Mr. Croll, the engineer of the Wellington Meat Export Company : will you tell us what is the nature of the examination—does it extend to an examination of the condition of the charcoal insulation ? — He bores in several places in the hold—wherever he thinks there may be defective insulation. If any repairs are recommended by Mr. Croll they are done, and fresh charcoal is supplied where necessary. 4. In the ship's hold in London, when the meat is in process of being discharged, are you aware whether the temperature is allowed to rise to such a degree as to melt the snow in the hold ? —I cannot say that I have any knowledge of that, but workmen at Home decline to unload meat while the machinery is running, and if the hatches are off the snow will, of course, melt. 5. The snow melting in that way, what would be the condition of the insulation; the melted snow among the charcoal would necessarily go through the plank-lining which confines the charcoal insulation ?—The charcoal would become damp. OA. Would not the insulation be so damaged as to largely impair the efficiency of the insulation ? —I do not think the damage from melted snow is very material if the hold is thoroughly cooled down before the sheep are put into it. 6. Are you not aware that dry air is the best insulator possible ; that water in this case replacing the dry air would, of course, fill all the little spaces among the charcoal insulation ; the insulation would therefore necessarily be so damaged as to be much inferior to what it was when the charcoal was first packed in dry ?—I have no doubt it is so ; but you must understand I cannot give you expert evidence on the subject of the effect of water on charcoal insulation. If you will

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ask me questions bearing on the carrying trade I will be happy to answer them, but I cannot give evidence worth your hearing on expert matters of that nature. 7. I find, in a report sent out from London by the Government agent there, the " Euapehu," " Aorangi," and the " Bimutuka " delivered meat in a bad condition. Do your representatives in the various parts of New Zealand examine the condition of the meat upon its being received on board in New Zealand ?—lt is examined by the officers of the ship. 8. What are the instructions to these officers ?—They are not to receive any meat except in good condition. 9. Have your officers on any occasion rejected meat which they considered to be in bad condition when presented for shipment by the freezing companies?— Yes ; they have done so on several occasions. 10. Have you any explanation to give to the Committee as to the bad condition in which the meat was delivered by these ships I have mentioned ?—We have not been able to trace how the damage occurred. We are inclined to think that the meat was not thoroughly frozen through when it was received on board. 11. What is the nature of the test that is applied by your officers to ascertain whether the meat is thoroughly frozen upon being presented alongside the ship ?—They generally take hold of the carcase and try to pull the legs apart and feel the flank. 12. Do you contend, in the case of the shipments by these vessels, the meat must have been imperfectly frozen when presented ?—We are inclined to think that is to some extent the cause of part of the damage. 13. Supposing your officers tested, say, 5 per cent., or even 1 per cent., of the sheep presented for shipment, would you expect that upon that percentage turning out unsatisfactorily any of these sheep would be imperfectly frozen ? 14. The Chairman.] You examine one sheep out of one hundred, and you naturally expect the other ninety-nine to be all right ?—-If we tested a few out of each truck we should think the whole would be in the same condition. 15. Mr. Buchanan.'] Are you of opinion, when your officers have tested any particular sheep, they can state authoritively or not if it was sufficiently frozen ?—They could not state with authority as to whether the meat was frozen to the bone or not. 16. Are you not aware if in case a sheep is imperfectly frozen you can discover that immediately by laying hold of the hind legs, and testing it by trying to move those legs ?—I do not know that it could be ascertained in that way. 17. Are you not aware the shipping engineers universally accept that as an entirely satisfactory test ?—That is the only test, feeling the flank and trying to move the legs are the tests they have adopted. There is no other test we can apply. 18. Do you admit that this is an entirely satisfactory test ?—No ; we have accepted it as such. 19. I have heard it admitted, again and again, the legs being absolutely rigid the sheep must necessarily be hard frozen right to the bone. Do you admit that is so ?—No; that can easily be tested by cutting the sheep up. 20. It is universally admitted?—l do not think it is admitted by our engineers. 21. I will now read a short extract from the Government officer in London, viz.: " I was informed on the steamship ' Euapehu ' that thermometers suspended in the holds ascertained from the trunks only, for the reason that such thermometers as had been suspended from the deck had become frozen." Would you consider it possible on the voyage to test the temperature of the hold, the thermometers by which the hold could be tested having become so frozen up they could not be examined ? Would you consider it possible to obtain what temperature it would be under these circumstances ? —I believe if the temperature in the return-air trunk is taken and found to be satisfactory, it is a very good indication that the temperature is right throughout the hold. 22. A further sentence in the report is this : " What is the use of a thermometer which shows that a temperature of 48° is ruling at one point, when immediately after, on the examination of cheese taken from within a few feet of the same point, 56° was found, or 32° where the goods were stowed in the middle of the chamber." I wish to ask you, Mr. Gibbs, whether you have any explanation to make with regard to that part of the report ?—I have had no report from London with regard to that cheese. I may say I place very little reliance on the gentleman who made that report in London. 23. " I think the meat and the dairy-produce from that ship arrived in a stinking condition." That is the report. You yet would place no reliance on the report of that gentleman ?—Does this part of the report point to the temperature of the cheese and tainted meat ? 24. Yes, in the same ship ? —I have no doubt the temperature of the cheese-chamber could be satisfactorily explained by the engineer. lam not able to give any explanation. 25. Would this condition of things not be explainable at once by the want of circulation ?—ln the cheese-chamber I should say if the temperature is 48° in one place and 32° in another that would indicate deficient circulation. 26. Probably that was caused by the blocking of the air-trunks and passages with snow ?—That might possibly be the case. 27. Would it not be the duty of the officers to see that the snow impeding the air-passages was removed ? —Yes. 27a. And produce the state of matters given by the report ? —Yes; if the air-trunks were blocked up. 28. You said a little while ago the men in the dock would not work if the refrigerating engines were running ?—Yes, in the discharging. I understand that the men decline to work when the refrigerators are running.

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29. Are you not aware the men do work in the hold in London when the refrigerators are running ?—No; they may do so, as in some instances men work in New Zealand in some ports. 30. In London ?—lt is reported men in London decline to work during the discharging. 81. You mean to say you do not know of men working in London with the refrigerators running?—l say it is possible some of them may do so. 32. Do you not know the men in London work with the refrigerators running?— The report we have is they do not. 33. Are you not aware the temperature in the refrigerating holds in London is allowed to run up during the discharge in some cases as high as 40°?— I have no knowledge of that. Our letter of instructions to the engineers is to the effect that the machinery is to be kept running and as careful attention paid to the condition of the meat during discharge as during the voyage. 34. Would you be surprised on being told on going down the hold of more than one of the New Zealand Shipping Company's vessels I found the temperature to be 35° and 36°?— I should say, then, you would be the gentleman to give this evidence, having had experience. 35. Eeturning to Mr. Oroll, the Wellington Freezing Company's engineer. If Mr. Croll reported the insulation to be in a bad condition, would you consider the company bound to repair the insulation?— Yes, and we do it. Our anxiety is to carry this meat in good order. We keep a stock of charcoal in Lyttelton for the express purpose of effecting these repairs. 36. Hon. C. J. Johnston.] I would like to know whether the damage is pretty evenly spread over all the ships and throughout the year ? —No ; this last year has been an exceptional one. The bulk of the meat damaged seems to have been shipped about the months of January and February of this year. There were five ships left the colony all about the same time. I think the " Euahine," " Tekoa," " Tokomaru," " Fifeshire," and " Aotea " all left the colony about the same time, and are reported to have landed meat damaged. 37. Was that about the time when there was delay in cargo coming forward, and which was afterwards rushed, and would you suppose, under these circumstances, the meat would not be sufficiently frozen before it was given to the ships?— That is rather a difficult question to answer. 38. Your reply, Mr. Gibbs, seems to locate a time for damage, and one would suppose there was a special caiise ? —The damage in these particular ships appeared all to come together, and attention was drawn by such a large quantity being delivered damaged at the same time. These steamers have previously carried their meat in good order with the same insulation and machinery. 39. The damage does not apply to any of the other ships ? —There were five steamers which landed their meat in a more or less bad condition. 40. It is a fact that at this particular time the works were for a long time at a standstill,' and then they were rushed ?—Both the Belfast and the Islington works had additional machinery fitted and alterations to works. 41. Hon. E. Richardson.] The " Euapehu " has been reported to have damaged a lot of meat. On what particular occasion has she damaged meat on subsequent voyages ?—The last cargo of meat she carried we have just had a report showing she landed it in excellent condition. 42. With the same insulation? —Yes, and the same machinery. 43. Mr. Maslin.] I suppose general instructions are given not to take any meat which shows any signs of unsoundness ?—Yes. 44. There is a record of temperature kept ? —The temperature is taken every watch. 45. And the vessels mentioned by Mr. Buchanan have got the latest machinery ?—Haslam's machinery, which we have always found to do good work. Of course, there is more recent machinery, but that fitted in our steamers has sufficient power to keep the meat properly frozen. 46. Could you tell us what number of carcases have been damaged out of your cargoes during the last twelve months ? —I have no information. In the " Euahine," I believe, there were something like one thousand. 47. Mr. McLachlan.] It has been suggested to me, is there no particular part of the ship where the sheep are damaged, or is it spread all over the cargo ?—-I think the damage in the " Euahine " was confined to the bottom tier. 48. Is it found always that the bottom tier is the place ?—No; but with this particular ship the bulk of the damage was on the bottom tier. 49. There is no difference in the temperature in any part of the hold?— The temperature throughout the hold should be the same. The air circulates throughout the chamber. 50. Mr. Buddo.] Is there any rule by which your employes would reject carcases if they found them bad ? —lf the carcase was wet the engineer would reject it, but if only slightly damp, then it is left to the judgment of the engineer. He is held responsible for these cargoes, and if he does not land them in good order he loses his gratuity. 51. That particular point which refers to the cargoes being damp, would it make any difference if the loading was confined to night-work ?—I think in the evening and the early morning we might do better work than we do at the present time. I may say that unless we get a special train the meat does not arrive alongside the vessel until eleven o'clock in the morning. The railway authorities have declined to give specials unless the ordinary trains are fully utilised. 52. Do I understand the railway authorities do not meet you in the way of train arrangements ? —If we could get the meat down at four o'clock in the morning and avoid the intense heat of midday it would be far more satisfactory. At present the meat comes alongside the vessels at eleven o'clock in the morning, when the sun is usually at its very strongest. 53. As regards testing. In reply to Mr. Buchanan, I understood you to question his method of testing whether or not the meat was frozen to the bone. Would you suggest any other test, such as cutting up a small percentage ?—I believe that is the only real test. We have made up our minds about this, and in the next lot of sheep we have on our own account we intend taking one or two out of each truck, and cut them up with the special object of testing this thing.

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54. Is there any objection to the new system of freezing known as the "brine process"? Would the rapidity with which the meat is frozen have any effect on it ? Would it be as thoroughly frozen as under the old method ? —I could not say. 55. Have the midsummer shipments shown any higher damage to the carcases than at other parts of the year? —Yes, this year. 56. Then, the cargoes shipped in January and February were where the most damage was done ? —Yes ;in January and February, in the very hot summer. 57. Your company has no suggestion to offer how the frozen meat could be carried in a better way?—As far as the shipping company is concerned, we lose no opportunity of testing the insulation of our machinery, and our only anxiety is to carry the meat in good order and condition. Outside of that, I believe some of the damage occurs through the meat being too short a time in the freezing-works to start with. I believe a large amount of damage occurs in the discharge in London, owing to the meat having to be sorted out in the hold of the vessel. Some has to be shiped into barges, some into the stores, and some on to the railway to go into the country, and this is all sorted out on board the steamer. 58. Would the rapid discharge of a vessel into a store on the landing facilitate the distribution of the cargoes in a better condition than at the present time? —I think if the meat was discharged into a store at the docks, and delivered from the store, it would be beneficial. 59. Hon. Mr. Feldwick.] Was all that damaged Canterbury meat only ? —I believe the greater portion was from Canterbury. There may have been some small portion from Wellington, but not very much. We have had one complaint from the Meat Export Company. 60. Mr. Buchanan.] When ?—A couple of months ago. I really forget what ship it was. 61. Hon. Mr. Feldwick.] Any from Southland? —With regard to Southland, they have a difficulty in connection with the railway there. The meat is railed from the " Mataura," and I believe on one occasion the train was left at Invercargill and not taken through to the Bluff, and we have rejected meat at the Bluff. It comes a long distance from the " Mataura "to the vessel. 62. Mr. Wilson.] I gather from your remarks that you do not think any blame was attachable to the company for the meat being turned out in a bad condition ?—As far as the machinery and insulation are concerned, I think everything has been done that could be done. 63. I see a report that the '■Tongariro" had one thousand carcases damaged. What was the cause of that?—l think the machinery on the " Tongariro " broke down on the voyage, and I think it took thirteen hours to repair it. 64. The report says, "In the cases of the ' Tekoa' and ' Tokomaru' several hundred carcases were condemned, whilst in the case of the ' Tongariro' a thousand carcases were destroyed by the order of the Health Officer for the Port of London." And further on: "I now beg to report on arrival of the s.s. ' Tongariro, , with a general cargo of mutton, beef, lamb, butter, and cheese, besides ordinary cargo. Those in charge of this vessel have had exceptional difficulties to contend with. Leaving Wellington on the 20th February, a breakdown of the forward machine occurred on the 21st February. This necessitated a stoppage of the machine for twenty-six hours. On resuming working the readings showed a rise in temperature of 10°, generally in the meatholds, the minimum reading being 28°. Again, on the 12th March the same machine had to be stopped for repairs, this time for thirty-six hours." Do you consider the " Tongariro "as good a vessel as any of the others?— Yes; she has carried her meat in very good order for many years. 65. And are you aware that this machinery has been so done up that it is sufficient for the purpose now ?—We have the report of the breakdown, but I forget what was the cause ; the machinery has been put in proper order. 66. It is not with some particular part of the machinery ?—lt was a breakdown that might occur on any steamer. 67. You also said the principal damage was done in the lower tier. Would not that point to the fact that the temperature was not sufficiently low. Would not the lower tier be the last to receive the air ? —I think it points to this fact : that the meat when shipped could not have been as hard as it should have been, and the weight of the upper carcases pressed it down and prevented the air circulating. 68. You do not think that it was the want of temperature ? —No ; the pressure of the meat above would press the bottom meat down and prevent the air circulating. 69. It would not be that the engineers were trying to run the coal close ?—Our engineers and captains have written instructions that the meat, being the most valuable portion of the cargo, is to receive their first consideration, and they have to give it their first attention. 70. Supposing an engineer got through a less amount of coal during a voyage than he might have, would he get any encouragement ? —None whatever. 71. Supposing an engineer can manage to do with a large quantity of coal less than another, would he not receive any recognition by the company ?—No; he gets no bonus for anything like that. The quantity of coal that he could save is so small that no engineer would risk his character to effect such petty economy. I suppose half a ton to a ton per day is the most he would save. The thing is so small that no engineer would risk it. No encouragement is given by our company to make such economies. 72. In some companies they do give a bonus to some engineers ? —ln some they do. 73. There is no bonus or encouragement to an engineer to run the coal closely? —No, no bonus. 74. Mr. Buchanan.] Do you mean to give to the Committee as evidence that there is no rule in the conduct of the shipping company's business which provides that a bonus should be paid to the engineers as to saving in the consumption of coal? —Yes; I say there is none. 75. Are you not aware that it has been so?—No; I am not aware any bonus has been given to any engineer for saving coal.

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76. Can you state of your own knowledge that such a rule has never obtained in the shipping company's service ?—Yes ; we have copies of the instructions given to our engineers from time to time. Of every circular and every instruction we have a copy filed, and lam quite sure no such inducement has ever been held out to any of the engineers of our company. 77. Do you know of any ship in the trade which has always delivered her meat in good order ?—No, Ido not know. There are some vessels that may have done less damage than others. 78. Do you not know that the " Doric," for instance, not now in the trade, has invariably delivered her meat in good condition, using the same machinery as in any other case ?—I have no report of the condition of the " Doric's " meat. 79. Have certain shippers at any time refused to ship by one of your ships because of damage to meat by that ship on successive voyages?—We have had notice from some shippers that they would decline to ship in such a boat unless they were satisfied the insulation was in good order. 80. Do you not know meat belonging to myself was damaged in one of your ships, and I absolutely refused to ship by that vessel any longer?—l believe that is so. 81. Can you give any reason why this ship in particular, as against the other ships of the company, did damage her meat on successive voyages ?—No ; we have done all we can to find out the cause of damage in that ship, and, I think, for several voyages past we have had no complaints. 82. Do you not know the causes of damage by that particular ship were discovered and removed ?—I cannot remember any particular damage that was discovered or any cause of damage. 83. Is it not a fact the captain was informed by the shipping company that unless this damage was remedied he should cease to command the ship ?—I have never heard of such a thing. I can quite understand, if they thought the captain was responsible, they should give him that warning; but we have never heard of this. 84. Is it not unlikely that such a notice should be given to the captain without yourself knowing it ?—Possibly. I think that the man who would be more responsible than the captain would be the chief engineer. 85. Is not the captain held jointly responsible with the chief engineer?— Yes. 86. You said the damage to meat was generally found in the lower tier? —In the particular shipments referred to. 87. Supposing the artificial air stopped from any cause, where would the temperature rise above freezing-point first, in the lower or upper hold?—I should say the temperature would rise at the top. 88. Is it not certain the temperature would rise first at the top, the warm air ascending?— The carcases stowed at the top would be the first to suffer in case of stoppage of the machinery. 89. If the temperature on the top tier of carcases is down to the requisite point ?—I do not go into the freezing-room very often myself, and I cannot say. 90. Supposing the freezing insulation was defective through moisture being present in the charcoal insulation, would it not necessarily follow the temperature would immediately rise upon stoppage of machinery in the lower hold? —It might. I have not an expert knowledge on these points, and any expression of opinion I may give is only my idea and of little value. 91. Mr. Fraser.] You told us you have no expert knowledge. Do you think it would be of advantage that there should be inspection at the works before the sheep are put on board?—lt must do good ; it can do no possible harm. 92. Do you know of any instances of sheep being hurriedly frozen at works and sent down aboard ship ?—I do not know I can give any particulars, but I believe meat has been hurriedly frozen and sent down on several occasions. 93. Mr. McLachlan.] Is it possible to hurriedly freeze sheep?—l have no knowledge of that. I might suggest one of the managers of the freezing-works would very soon give you that information. 94. Mr. G. W. Russell.] Would the last tier of the meat be the first to go into the vessel ?—The way in which it is stowed is this : The meat is put on the bottom and stacked up to a certain height, and then another layer is started, and so on. It does not follow that the bottom tier would all go in first. 95. I understand, from what you said this morning, you hold the opinion the efficiency of the vessel, so far as refrigerating goes, is complete. You have not been able to trace any defect ?—lt is as complete as we can make it. 96. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the carcases of meat going bad lay in connection with the railway service ?—I think the railway arrangements contribute to the meat getting in a bad condition. 97. Has it come under your knowledge that both the Belfast and Islington Companies are of opinion the trucks being used are really not in an efficient state ?—I believe some of the trucks are not properly constructed. 98. From what you have seen and know, are you of opinion that a defect in the trucks might cause so slight a measure of thawing as hardly to be perceptible on arrival at the vessel's side, and yet carcases in that state, being stacked one upon the other, would have to be again refrigerated to a degree that would prevent this being noticed ?—I believe it is possible that does occur. The meat may get the slightest damp by being exposed, and, when stowed together, that is where the mildew starts. 99. Did I understand you to say only a very small percentage of the carcases were tested when taken on board?— Yes; while the engineer cannot possibly handle every one, he handles all he can. 100. Supposing that he found one or two carcases that he tested were weak — and there might be fifty or one hundred passed in before he noticed this defect—would there be no test applied

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to those put in which might apply to the lot ?—No; if a number of carcases had escaped detection they would be stowed away and not examined again, I think. 101. You would admit the test applied at the ship's side is not very effective?—l admit the test is as good as we can give it without unduly detaining a steamer and unduly exposing the meat. The sooner we can get it into the hold the better it is for the meat. 102. The position you would take up would be that there is no one acting with your company or ships on whom the responsibility is laid to make a thorough test of the carcases ? —Yes. 103. Supposing the Committee should suggest there should be some officer who should make a more able test, would you be very pleased to have this done?— Yes. 104. Something was said the other day, when Sir John Hall's evidence was being given, as to there being some damage in the older class of vessels as against the new ones. The " Tongariro " was a vessel on which Sir John Hall had four hundred odd lambs, and only six were found to be sound on arrival. Have you any knowledge as to these?—A steamer such as the " Tongariro" carries only twenty-seven thousand carcases of mutton, and the machinery on board is quite capable of keeping these frozen. The recently-built steamers carry sixty and seventy thousand frozen carcases, but they have more powerful machinery. 105. Do you think the railway arrangements, to simply hook the frozen-meat vans on to the trains, is fair to the trade considering the trade in Canterbury is worth £30,000 ? —No ; the railway should run special trains right through to Lyttelton without any stoppage ; they frequently miss connecting with a train at Christchurch, and the meat may have to lie at the station for an hour. 106. Have you ever heard of any special cases where delay has taken place ?—We know of many instances where twelve and sixteen hours have been allowed to elapse from the time the vans of frozen meat have been loaded until the meat has been taken aboard the ships. 107. Do you know whether in these cases the responsibility laid entirely with the railway, or was the responsibility partially that of the ship's, in being unable to receive the meat directly the vans arrived in Lyttelton ? —We never allow those in charge of the freezing-works to forward meat until we know the ship is ready to receive it. If a train comes down at 11 o'clock, and another one two hours later, and another immediately after that, it is quite possible some of these vans may lie sixteen hours before the meat gets into the ship. 108. Then, in that case the fault would be that of the freezing company, in loading the trucks up at the works without making sure it would be able to be taken straight on board the vessel ? —I think the train arrangements are more responsible. I think this is where the difficulty comes in. If special trains were run, then trains could be timed to arrive so that they would not come in close together. 109. Would there be any extra cost in taking the meat on board the vessel at any hour in the morning?—We should have to pay overtime. 110. Would that make any increase to the expenses of the company ?—lt would mean we should have to pay double time; but Ido not think it would affect the freezing company. 111. There would not be any considerable increase in the cost? —I do not think the shipping companies would object to that increased cost if we could get the meat. 112. Mr. Wilson.] You said meat which came from the freezing-works was mildewed through having been in the trucks ?—What I said was if the covers were damp and stowed away mildew would occur. 113. In the case of meat arriving in such condition, it would be rejected, would it not?— There is no mildewed meat ever tendered alongside. The mildew, when it occurs, is the result of stowing sheep together with damp covers. 114. That is not in connection with the trucks at all ?—The time occupied in loading is not sufficiently long for mildew to take place. 115. Mildew does arise from between the works and the ship ?—No. The covers may get slightly damp in the trucks, and when meat is stowed away in the hold of the ship with two damp covers together, then, I understand, the mildew occurs. 116. It is not observable when shipping ?—No. 117. Supposing a cover was damp, would it be rejected?— Yes; but the damp may be so slight as to be hardly perceptible. 118. With regard, to the condition of the meat which comes from Timaru, is there any perceptible difference? —In the summer-time if meat is railed up it may suffer a little; but our experience is that the meat delivered from Timaru has always been in very good order. 119. Has there been any complaint about that meat ? Do you find the meat coming from Timaru is as good as other meats? —I think it is in equally good order. 120. At which of the New Zealand ports do you get the quickest dispatch, speaking with regard to loading mutton ? —I should say at Wellington we get as good dispatch as anywhere. 121. Hon. Mr. Feldwick.} Not at the Bluff? —I am referring to where we load more meat than at the Bluff. One reason is: At Wellington we get the Gear Company's hulk alongside our steamer, and can load from the wharf at the same time. 122. Mr. Flatman.] You have never had to wait for meat from Timaru ? —■Wβ have done quite as good a day's work at Timaru as in any other part in New Zealand. 123. Do you know enough of the trade to tell us the result of the meat being put into the frozen chamber before it was properly ready for that chamber ?—I could not say; that is for an expert to give his opinion on. Mr. Buchanan : That is easily shown by the practice in Chicago, where the meat goes smoking hot straight into the cold chamber. 124. Mr. Gibbs, I understood you to say that, regarding the damage in the lower hold, the circulation of the cold air might be interfered with by the weight on top crushing down the carcases. Is that correct ?—Yes.

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125. Could that occur if the meat had not first got soft so as to admit of the carcases being squeezed together ? —That could be explained in this way. The information which I have obtained from experts is this : that it is quite possible to case-harden a sheep—that means, the outside is perfectly hard, and to all appearance the meat is frozen through, while the interior is not hard—and that when this meat is stowed away the outer casing draws the heat from the interior of the carcase, and the whole carcase may become more or less soft. It is quite understandable if that is the case, and you put weight on the top, the tier bearing the weight will simply collapse and stop the circulation of the air. 126. Do you know what you describe would be quite impossible if your engineer examined the carcases before going on board, or a certain percentage of them ? Any way, this examination is always made by seizing the legs and finding out whether the carcase is perfectly rigid ?—I do not know. Mr. Buchanan : Absolutely impossible. 127. Hon. Mr. Feldwiak.] Do you get any guarantee from the shippers that the meat is properly frozen? —The understanding is that the meat is to be properly frozen. 128. There is no guarantee as to the number of days?—-We have no control over their works. We do not examine or inspect them in any way. 129. Mr. Buchanan.] Do not the shipping companies enter into an agreement with the freezing companies that upon the meat being accepted by the shipping companies alongside as properly frozen the shipping companies in the event of delivery in London in a damaged condition would accept a reduced freight on that account ? —I do not remember any such agreement. 130. Are you not aware the shipping companies meeting a conference of the freezing companies in Wellington several years ago entered into an agreement of that sort ?—I have never heard of such an agreement. The shipping company carries the meat, and in case of damage the loss is recovered from the insurance companies. 131. In that event, would that not be proof of two things, —(1) That the shipping companies could practically detect insufficiently-frozen meat; (2) that the shipping companies realise the necessity to carry the meat in a proper condition, and deliver it so in London ? —We say that we can carry it in good order and condition ; but we also recognise this fact: that no body of men can handle five or six thousand carcases per day, or two million carcases a year, without some damage. The freezing companies and ship and dock companies cannot handle two million carcases without a certain percentage of damage, and I beg to state that if this Committee sits from now till doomsday they cannot get over that fact. 132. You have referred to the freezing companies. Are you not aware that not a single damaged carcase has been presented in the port of Wellington to any shipping company during the last twelve months ? —Prom my own knowledge I do not know, because we might not get a special report sent down from Wellington of any special damage. I admit the meat has been very satisfactory from Wellington. 133. Mr. Duncan.] Has it been brought under the shipping company's notice that meat railed from Timaru to Christchurch and Oamaru to Dunedin has been in any worse condition than that carried a shorter distance?—l think the meat tendered alongside Port Chalmers and Lyttelton has been ingood order. 134. After it has been carried by rail these long distances ?—Yes. 135. The Chairman.] Has your company ever made any test between the value of pumice and charcoal as an insulator?— Only on a very small scale. We insulated the store-room of the " Eimutaka," and Captain Greenstreet has reported that the insulation by pumice has proved very satisfactory. That is the only insulation that we have put in our steamers, and our directors in London are not disposed to insulate a steamer entirely with pumice until it has been thoroughly tested. We are satisfied so far with the charcoal, and are not prepared to experiment by fitting up a steamer with pumice at present. 136. Would you not consider pumice would be less combustible than charcoal ?—I do not express an opinion. 137. I take it it is to your interest to land meat in first-class condition ?—Yes. 138. You should endeavour to accomplish that. Have you no engineer in your service that could give the Committee expert evidence? —The engineer of the " Ruapehu," who will be back here in about a week, could give expert evidence. 139. You have no one here at present?— The engineer of the " Waikato " might give evidence, but the engineer out of the " Euapehu " has more experience. Mr. Lawry : I think the Committee will admit that Mr. Gibbs has given us a large amount of most valuable information, and that he deserves the thanks of the Committee for his attendance. Carried unanimously. Mr. Walter Peck examined. The Chairman introduced Mr. W. Peck, of New Plymouth, and asked him to make a concise statement to the Committee relative to his patent process of thawing frozen meat. Mr. W. Peck : The most concise method of description will, I think, consist in giving the Committee my idea of what is required, namely, to raise the temperature of the meat to that of the outside atmosphere in such a manner that the air surrounding the meat would not be in a condition to deposit anything upon the meat, or abstract anything from it. To do this I blow the room through with dry air taken from the room in which the frozen meat is stored, and warm it in its passage from the cold store to the thawing room by means of a multitubular trunk surrounded with hot water, the heat of which is regulated by means of a steam coil. Supposing the meat is stored at 10 deg., there is a little over one grain of water in a cubic foot of the air. The dew which can be thrown down in a temperature of 10 deg. has been thrown down before it was heated, and consequently when the air is blown upon the meat it is incapable of throwing dew 3—l. 9.

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upon it. The meat very quickly —within the first few minutes —attains a temperature of 32 deg., upon which I commence to allow a certain proportion of moisture to intermingle with the air circulating in the room in such a proportion as to keep the dew point approximate to the temperature of the meat. This moisture is admitted either in the form of moist air from the outer atmosphere, or by means of a sponge suspended in the trunk and fed by means of a lubricator filled with water on the outside of the trunk. As the dried air, or partially dried air, is blown rapidly past the sponge, it easily absorbs enough moisture to heighten the dew point to the temperature required. Of course, if the dew point should get too high, it is easily rectified by admitting dried air from the cold store to the fan. This goes on, keeping the dew point just slightly below the temperature of the meat, until the meat has attained the same degree of heat as the temperature of the day happens to be on which the thawing takes place. Mr. McLachlan : In order to go into and make the thing a success, it would not do to have such a concern as the Gear Company with large refrigerating-works trying it. Mr. Buchanan : When I was at Home four years ago, I tried hard to get Nelson Brothers to put up a thawing-room. The sponge business did not occur to me. My plan was to admit as much as required of the outer air to mix with the originally dried air from the freezing-room. When I came back, I set up a tank and filled it with dried air from the room. In this I put a sheep's carcase, and stood it in the sun and thawed it, with the result that there was, as one would expect, a dew. I left it a little too long. Mr. Peck : I tried a similar experiment, but considered that the moisture exuded from the meat to the ; air when the temperature rose, and was redeposited in the form of a dew upon the meat when the temperature fell, showing that a method of regulating the temperature was absolutely necessary. 140. Mr. Buchana?i.] Nelson Brothers did not care to take the thing up, and it dropped there. What I wanted to ask you was, whether Nelson Brothers took the thing up themselves afterwards? —Their process dries the meat, so I understand. 141. Reports state, as it would necessarily be the case under your process, the meat turns out in first-class condition ?—Yes. 1.42. As a consequence, you were able to get a slightly increased price from the purchasers? —Yes. 143. How would you expect to get a more improved price by your process than by the Nelson process ?—Nelson process is not a success ; at least, so Nelson has told people. It has come to me from several sources, and from Nelson's lips originally, that the meat has turned black. He has the meat suspended the whole time in perfectly dry air. He has a floor of steam pipes, and at the two ends are cold pipes. Cold always attracts moisture. 144. Perhaps it would be better for you to say you call yours a better result ?—Yes. 145. You say under your process the meat does not weep. Can you explain to the Committee the reason of weeping when meat is thawed in the open air ? —Weeping is caused by meat being colder than the temperature of the .day, and the consequent precipitation of dew. My method avoids this by the meat being turned out at the same degree of temperature as that of the day in which the thawing takes place. I have seen quarters of beef thawed in the ordinary atmosphere in warm weather drip half a bucket of water on to the floor. 146. As an expert you are, of course, aware that the moment water crystalises in the interior of the meat the temperature is slightly below 30 deg. to 32 deg., when it rises. It has been the opinion that the meat at that temperature, having acquired great rigidity, the swelling which accompanies the actual formation of the crystals injured the solen —ruptured it—and that that was the principal cause of weeping. Can you explain to the Committee the reason why, in your opinion, the weeping that is supposed arises from this cause will be obviated by this process ?—Prom the start, after making initial experiments, I came to the conclusion that this theory about the bursting of the gravy-cells was wrong. Of course, the theory was the tissues of the meat were like waterpipes upon the outside of a house in frosty weather, but my experiments pointed to the conclusion that meat in the early stages of freezing was too elastic to allow of a rupture to take place. 147. At that stage?— Yes. For as soou as you come down to the 28 deg. contraction begins to set in. Ice contracts after it has cooled down 3 deg. or 4 deg. lower than freezing point, and then contracts just like any other substance. Ice expands until it gets past these 3 deg., but during these 3 deg. the meat is not rigid enough to cause the bursting. There is no weeping from this meat, and that, I think, proves my version of the case. 148. This is the principal point: Can you tell the Committee, of your own observation, chat weeping under your process does not take place ?—I will ask the butchers. 149. You have not tested the matter yourself?—l have cut the meat and seen no weeping. 150. At what temperature ?—I should say the meat would have a temperature of about 50 deg. When thawing I have a thermometer hung outside the building, and thaw to that degree. I would very much like, if convenient, for the Committee to appoint somebody before coming to a decision, to see the meat taken into the thawing-room. That gentleman could go in any time and see the frost gradually leaving the meat without any change taking place, and he could follow the process through. 151. There is no difficulty about that. I think the best plan for you to satisfy the Committee would be, that you thaw under your process, and send down a carcase to the Committee, who would find butchers here to operate on it ; and if we are fortunate enough to get a day on which the temperature is 65 deg., that, I take it, would be the most conclusive proof that we could get of the weeping or non-weeping. 152. Mr Buddo.} You are aware the purchaser invariably judges apiece of meat by the colour. Is there any perceptible difference between the colour of meat thawed by your process or meat not thawed at all?— That depends upon the degree to which the meat is frozen. At Waitara we freeze

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to a temperature of 10 deg. below zero—always 5 deg., sometimes 10 deg. If we kept our stores at 15 deg. or 12 deg., by the time the meat was delivered in a warm day it would be pretty well thawed out. If you freeze meat down you get perhaps a very slight difference in colour, but in meat frozen only down to 15 deg., or perhaps 10 deg., you might not notice it. 153. The colour would be of a very small degree?— Yes; people would have to look very closely to detect any variation in colour. The meat that went down to the Gear Company has been stored in a more than usually cold atmosphere, because of a circular which the Agricultural Department sent to all the freezing companies about the steamers arriving Home with damaged meat. 154. Are you of opinion in any case where the meat has been partially thawed by the atmosphere or otherwise your process of thawing would still be of considerable value ?—Mr. Bailey, who holds a good reputation, said it would put 2d. on the beef. 155. I understand you to say you are quite willing to submit to an experiment, to be overlooked by some competent gentleman. You have no objection to the meat being thawed at Waitara to be under the inspection of some gentleman who is not an expert in machinery?—l shall be very glad. I have undertaken to thaw the meat at Home that has been shipped this week at Waitara. I gave Mr. O'Halloran my promise to be in England to do it; and I would like the thing to be fixed up so that I could fulfil my promise. 156. Mr. Buchanan.] When do you expect to get away? —By the " Euapehu" probably. 157. Mr. McLachlan.] Have you any report from the Gear Company as to the condition of the meat you sent to them ?—Mr. Ritchie, I think, knows about that. Mr. Bitchie : There has been no definite report from Mr. Gear, but Mr. Millward had told him that he had no definite report from that gentleman, but that he considered, as far as he knew, it had been satisfactory. Mr. Peck : I called three times in one day on Mr. Gear without meeting him. I asked the foreman in the shop if he had heard anything, and he said that Mr. Gear had said the meat had retained its full flavour, not having the absence of or deficiency in flavour of the ordinary frozen meat. Mr. McLachlan : There is very strong evidence that this would be a fairly effectual thawing process if Mr. Gear said so. 158. Mr. Lawry.] I understand you have had your process patented?—l have a cable to say that it is patented in England. 159. Mr. Buchanan.] Have you not a patent here ?—Only a provisional one. 160. Mr. Laivry.] I think Mr. Peck is entitled to the Committee's best thanks for his attendance. With regard to your expenses while staying here, Mr. Peck ?—They are very small, except that I will be unable to use my return ticket, and have to go back by sea. 161. I think the Committee will authorise me to see this paid.—Carried unanimously. 162. Mr. Buchanan.] Having given this a great deal of thought myself, I can say confidently Mr. Peck has not come here without having first thoroughly mastered his subject. He has gone into the scientific basis of it, and has evidently followed it out. The main point is what he has described as the dew. If you are able to look after that in a proper way, then it is impossible for moisture to be deposited on the surface. (For papers handed in by this witness, see Appendices D and E.)

Wednesday, 19th August, 1896.' —(Me. Lawey, Chairman.) Mr. John Stevenson gave evidence and was examined. John Stevenson, Eesident National Dairy Association, Dunedin, called to give evidence on the frozen-meat and dairy-produce industries generally, said : I have had a good deal to do with the trade since it started, and we have had a great deal of trouble with the transit from time to time, not only owing to the extraordinary charges put on the produce, but because of its arriving in England in a very bad state; in fact, very often from £10 to £12 per ton reduced in value on quantities sold from the same ship, so that we are very anxious to try and get things put right, and also the selling at Home, which is very defective at the present time; and we are very glad to answer any questions you might put in the shape of where to dispose of it, and otherwise. 1. The Chairman.'] You wish to convey to the Committee this idea : that in consequence either of irregularity from insulation, or something on account of the ship, the butter shipments lose in many cases £10 per ton ?—Exactly, and cheese the same. 2. Mr. Montgomery.] You do not know why that is?—We know there must be something defective, because we have tested it. Large cargoes have been put on board ships, and they have been loaded from the keel right up to the upper-deck, and carried Home in first-class order. Before that they said it could not be done. But this was being managed in good order, and I hold that if they can do it in one instance, why not in another. 3. You do not know what is the cause of it, or whether it is from one part of the ship ?—Yes, I know it is from one part of the ship. Some time ago I sent 180 cases of cheese away, and we got sixty or seventy of these cases depreciated in value by £10 as compared with others per ton. 4. You do not know what part of the ship?— No. It goes down together, some forty or fifty tons, and lam not always there. The secretary of the association may be there. 5. Mr. Fiatman.] You are giving evidence entirely on cheese ?—Yes; I had to do with meat some years ago, but not for some time now. 6. Do you know whether the defective cheese is mixed with other goods when it arrives, or is it in one part of the ship? —We find it may be on one side of the chamber and not another. It is probable the cold air and ventilation may not have reached one portion and have reached the other. It is not so much cold air as ventilation that cheese requires.

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7. You are not complaining, then, of the insulating of the trucks on the railway; you are complaining of the shipping department ?—Yes; we have had no trouble with the trucks on the line. 8. Mr. Buddo.] Does the dairy produce always arrive in good order at the ship's side? —The Government has put on what they term graders, and the grader examines the whole cargo going on board, and sends out a ticket to the factories saying what order it is in; and these same cards I refer to are filed, showing the goods were put on board in good order before they arived in the Old Country. 9. Do you know of any case where they have arrived at the ship's side in bad order?— Yes, there have been cases which have been damaged. 10. Have you any knowledge, so far as butter is concerned ? —No, only as regards cheese. 11. What is the character of the damage done to the cheese: is it done by heat?— Heat in some instances and wet in others. 12. Heating, then, would be the principal damage done ?—The main damage done. 13. What would be the deterioration per pound on the case?— Cheese bringing at an average this year, I think, taking all New Zealand, of about £1 18s. per cwt. would bring about £1 Bs. when damaged. 14. Or a loss of 10s. per cwt. ? —Exactly. 15. Mr. McLachlan.] Mr. Stevenson attributes nearly the whole damage to the transit on board ship. Any particular ship, can you mention, more than another?— Yes; one ship has destroyed a lot of cheese in her time, and that is the " Eimutaka." There is also the " Kaikoura." 16. Do you know of any others that have been proverbial in this respect ?—No; but, at the same time, it sometimes happens that there is a leakage now and again that may destroy two or three cases. 17. You say that the butter when it goes to the ship's side passes what they call graders ?— It is graded before it goes to the ship in cool chambers. Before it goes on board ship the butter is graded in a cool chamber on shore. 18. Do you think they are graders in the proper sense of the word ?—The man we had down there is considered very suitable by the general community for the position. 19. Is there any particular season of the year that is worse than others for shipping ?—Yes. The season of the year when we are coming to a cool season and the cargo arrives in the Northern Hemisphere when it is hot. That is the worst time. 20. What is the damage mainly due to ? —lt is principally heating. Cheese is at that time richer than at any other time of the year. A poor cheese does not take the same bad effects as a fat cheese. The flavour is made stronger by heating; and, of course, cheese that does not arrive in London good in flavour is depreciated very much in value. 21. You think to obviate that by free circulation of air?— Yes. 22. And what about the temperature ? —The temperature is not so important as the free circulation of air. 23. Mr. Duncan.] What about the practice of rejecting a portion of the cheese and butter by the experts or graders ?—I do not think there has been, to my knowledge, any cheese condemned. The butter may be, so far as I know. 24. Is there any large proportion graded as second-class before it is shipped ?—I could not say as to that. All the tickets I have seen just show the mere state of the cheese when it goes on board. 25. When they inspect the cheese on board ship, do not the graders give you the class that they grade ?'- —Yes; they have been giving that, but I think to carry out the Act they have not been too hard on the parties making the cheese for fear they might be hurting the industry. They did not wish to punish the people if they could help it. Mr. Duncan: I think that is important, because there may be some cheese that is not first quality shipped, and when it arrives in England the fault may be put to the carriage. Mr. Gaiu, Manager of Railways in the Canterbury District, gave evidence as follows : The meat for shipping at Lyttelton is carried from Timaru, Belfast, and Islington, partly by special train and partly by the ordinary train service. Taking Timaru first, the meat from Timaru is usually worked by special train leaving at four o'clock in the morning, getting into Lyttelton shortly after 11 o'clock, and it is put alongside the ship at once. Some Timaru meat is taken up by the train leaving on Tuesdays at 8.20 p.m., and arriving at Christchurch at 4.30 a.m., and goes on to Lyttelton by the first passenger train at 6.50 a.m., arriving at Lyttelton at 7.15 a.m. Islington meat is worked by a special when the business is sufficient to warrant it. The train leaves the works at about 6.5 a.m., and arrives at Lyttelton about 7.15 a.m., a little over an hour. Belfast meat the same. The meat by special is followed by another lot leaving the works about 9.20 a.m., and it goes on (that is the Islington meat) to Lyttelton by the ordinary passenger train leaving Christchurch at 9.55 a.m., and arriving at Lyttelton at 10.15 a.m. So that it is less than an hour in transit from the works to the port. The Islington Company also sends meat by the goods train, which leaves the works at 1.55 p.m. That meat arrives in Christchurch at 2.25 p.m., goes on by goods train, which leaves about 2.50 p.m. or 3 o'clock, getting to Lyttelton about 3.30 p.m. The Belfast meat leaves also by a special in the morning, when the business is sufficient to warrant it, at 6.5 a.m., and arrives at Lyttelton at about 7.15 a.m. ; also by the ordinary train leaving about 9.20 a.m., arriving at Lyttelton about 11.15 a.m. ; and by goods train arriving in Christchurch at 11.40 a.m., and going on to Lyttelton by the goods train at 12.20 p.m. That is about two hours on the road. In addition to that, we run special trains in the afternoon occasionally when they are required. At all times we run special trains when they are needed as far as Christchurch, so as to bring the meat there, and then send it on by an ordinary train. We have had no complaint from any of the companies about the working of the meat traffic, and about two years ago, at a meeting

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of the Commissioners, at which various meat companies and shipping companies were represented, it was arranged that we should work the meat down earlier in the morning, so that it could be put on board before the heat of the day. The shipping companies object to commencing work so early, and it is only in a few cases that we have taken the meat down early in the morning. The meat that comes from Timaru by the train arriving at 4.30 a.m. we could send down at once. Instead of its going down, it awaits the passenger-train leaving Christchurch at 6.50 a.m. In a few cases where shipping companies were pressed to do it, they have had it down early. We have never had any complaint about the facilities for taking it forward to Lyttelton. 26. Mr. Flatman.] Will you describe the process of transit by railway of the meat from Belfast and Islington to the ship? —The meat leaves by special train about 6 o'clock in the morning, and gets down to Lyttelton about 7.15 a.m.—that is, when we are running it by a special. We run it partly by special and partly by ordinary trains. 27. Is there any use in taking it straight through ?—There is no use taking it straight through, because they do not commence work at the ship until 8 a.m. We have a further lot following by the ordinary train and coming into Christchurch at 9.50 and going on by goods train and getting in to Lyttelton at 11.15 a.m. There would be no advantage whatever in running special trains through to L'yttelton. 27a. Please describe the process of transit of frozen meat from Timaru works to Lyttelton, stating what hours of the day trucks are in transit and whether exposed to sun rays or not? —Yes, certainly in the summer time. The meat leaving Timaru at 4 a.m. does not arrive in Christchurch uutil 10.30, so that it must be subjected to the sun for a good many hours. 27b. And you have had no complaints about it?— None whatever. Timaru meat arrives usually at the ship in as good condition as the local meat. It has been remarked that it always arrives in good order. 28. It is represented that the deparcment is averse to running special trains from Belfast to Lyttelton ?—The department is not averse to running special trains. All the special trains are run which are needed. We object to run them where the ordinary train service will do. It would be absurd to run a special train to Lyttleton following an ordinary train which would have taken the meat -ten minutes earlier. 29. Then it has been stated that the railway arrangements stand in the way of night and very early morning work. Why is that so ? —lt is not the railway arrangements that stand in the way, it is the shipping arrangements. We offered two years ago to work the meat down earlier in the morning so as to commence work at 6 o'clock or earlier if the shippers cared to, and it has rarely been done. I have offered them myself repeatedly to take it down earlier. For instance, the meat arriving by Timaru train at 4.30 a.m., could go down to Lyttelton at once, without any expense whatever, so that we have no object in refusing to work it down early. We have asked them on many occasions to take the meat down to Lyttelton early so as to get it through at once and disposed of. They have rarely done so, and they in most cases refused to commence work early. 30. The Timaru meat arriving in Christchurch is detained in Christchurch ?—Only that arriving at 4.30. a.m. As regards working in the evening, we have often suggested it because it would suit our business to work in the evening. It would enable us to get better work out of the trucks. It is done occasionally, but only on rare occasions. 31. How many hours would it take to rail the meat say from Timaru to the ship's side at Lyttelton ?—About seven hours. 32. And how long from Belfast or Islington ?—From Belfast about fifty-five minutes; from Islington the same. 33. You have never known it sixteen hours or six hours ? —No, certainly not; it is impossible to be sixteen hours ; two hours is the longest time. The business for the following day is arranged by telephone. We arrange the loaded trucks to be conveyed by certain trains, and after that is settled the company confirm it by letter. We advise the stationmaster at Christchurch what number of trucks will arrive in Christchurch by each train, special or otherwise ; and the Stationmaster at Lyttelton is also advised of the meat that he will receive by each particular train; so that there is no possibility of meat being left behind at Christchureh and missing its proper train. Every precaution is taken that the meat shall go by the train arranged for. 34. Then, if any one were to say that the meat had been six hours, you would say that was contrary to fact ?—Certainly; I distinctly say that such a delay could not occur. 35. Now, I believe it is stated that the number of carcases that are railed from Timaru to Lyttelton is increasing. Somewhere about 35,000 are produced, I believe, and about 34,000 have been railed. How do you account for that increase ?—There are better facilities for shipping at Lyttelton, and sometimes, when there is only a small quantity of meat to ship from Timaru, the company cannot get a steamer, and they therefore ship it from Lyttelton. 36. And do they get better despatch at Lyttelton ? —No ; they get equally good despatch for putting it on board in both places. The quantity of meat that is being sent from Timaru now shows there is no difficulty in railing it a hundred miles in the hot sun without doing damage. There is no difficulty in sending it, and they, in fact, prefer to ship it from Lyttelton. 37. How many trucks an hour can be loaded at Timaru?—About five trucks an hour. 38. And how many trucks do you bring?— Twenty to thirty and over. 39. It would take about six hours to load a train ?—Yes, of thirty trucks. 40. How long would that train be before it started ?—lt would take seven hours to get to Lyttelton. It would leave at 4.30. 41. When the train is loaded at Timaru, how long would it stand before it sta.rted for Lyttelton?—lt would not stand any time at all. The loading would be arranged so that the last truck would be finished just about the time to start. When run by a special train, if the company had miscalculated the time required for loading, we should wait on them half an hour or so.

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42. How long would it take them unloading at the ship's side ?—About five or six hours. 43. Some of the meat might be eighteen hours in transit from the time of starting to being put in the ship's hold?— Certainly, eighteen or nineteen hours without any delay in transit occurring at all. 44. And you have never had any complaint of this meat ?—No complaint of any kind. 45. Mr. Btiddo.] I should like to ask more particularly about the facilities for running special trains during the night and early morning. Has the department been approached by freezing companies in Canterbury and elsewhere, as to whether they would run the whole of the output on the railways during the night or early morning ?—No. In fact the Belfast people are averse to running any more special trains in the morning than are absolutely necessary. 46. And no special application has been made to the department for running special trains in the early morning ? —No, none whatever. 47. The shipping companies have not approached the railways on this matter either?— No. The meat companies suggested, as before stated, that the meat should be worked in the early morning, and the shipping companies have been averse to it, and have not carried out the arrangement. In several cases, when I have arranged for the meat companies to take the meat down specially early in the morning, the shipping companies objected to it and refused, and the arrangements were upset. On one occasion we sent the meat down early, and there was nobody to receive it at the ship till 8 a.m. 48. You do not think the department has opposed any bar to the transit of frozen meat ? —No, none whatever. 49. You could say from memory that there has been no alteration in the case of rail freight per ton ?—No, there has been no alteration. 50. The same rate is still in existence —Bs. 6d. per ton and Bs. Id. per ton—from Belfast and Islington respectively ? 51. Does it not occur to the department that, with the greatly-increased output of these factories, the traffic is larger, and that it would pay the department to reduce the freight ?—I do not think so. It is a remarkably low freight now. We have to provide special trucks as well as facilities for. taking the meat down, and we only get half a load for a truck—about 3 tons. 52. Does the ordinary insulated truck only carry 3 tons? —Between 3 tons and 3 tons scwt. 53. And in no case would the amount put in the insulated truck be more than 4 tons ?—lt would not hold 4 tons. We usually load 130 carcases of sheep in a small truck. That would weigh from 3 tons to 3 tons scwt. 54. Hence you maintain that the cost of railing frozen meat is practically the same as in railing grain or other heavy produce ?—The rate is relatively the same. And there is another thing : we only get the loads one way with meat-trucks, while with grain we can use the trucks for any purposes and may have loads both ways. 55. With regard to the insulation of these trucks, are they periodically inspected ?—Yes, they are put into the shops at regular intervals when we can spare them for cleaning and painting, and in addition to that they are put into the shops for repairs when necessary. 56. What I want to get at is this: there is no special inspection of the insulation of the trucks unless they go into the shops for repairs ?—The Inspector specially inspects these trucks regularly —the running parts and insulation, and everything connected with the trucks, and he places a mark upon every truck that is not fit to run. It must go into the shops, and we cannot run it. 57. This question is probably outside your knowledge, but I would ask, Do you think you give the same facilities for running frozen meat on the New Zealand lines as they do for running dead meat in the Old Country?—l think we give infinitely greater facilities. 58. That is to say, on a demand being made for six trucks or more, you do your utmost to find a special, or convey it at the shortest possible time to the port ?—Yes. 59. And all other trains give way to it ?—We should give the meat the preference, as we do with all perishable traffic. 60. Mr. Lang.] I understand the shipping companies would object to put the meat on board in the early morning?—l do not know that they objected. They got the offer to do it, and they did not do it. 61. The reason I ask is, that there has been evidence before the Committee that they were quite willing that the meat should be sent on during the night ?—I had an interview with Mr. Bennett, of the New Zealand Shipping Company, just before I left Christchurch. Mr. Anderson, of the Christchurch Meat Company, said he was anxious that the meat should be taken down to Lyttelton early in the morning, so as to commence work at 4 a.m. ; and I asked Mr. Anderson why he had not done so, seeing we had given him many opportunities during the past two years. Mr. Bennett, of the Shipping Company, then said he was not prepared at the time to consider it. 62. How long ago was that ?—Last week. 63. And what did he give as the reason ?—The reason was, he had difficulty in getting men to commence work early. We were anxious to do it for this reason :it would enable us to get better work out of the trucks. 64. Then, I understand you said the frozen-meat works were averse to shipping io the night or early morning?—l cannot say definitely. I know Belfast objects to running any more specials than are actually necessary, for the reason that there is difficulty in loading in the early morning. 65. Difficulty in employing hands? —Yes. 66. Mr. McLachlan.] Have you heard any complaint of the imperfect insulation of the trucks ? - -No complaint at any time, until recently, of imperfect insulation. The Christchurch Meat Company complained quite recently about the insulation of the trucks. I understand, however, that there was nothing in it. 67. How are they insulated?— Mr. Kotheram will explain that.

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68. You were asked just now a question about the shipping company's desire to work at night or otherwise. I certainly was of opinion Mr. Gibbs said his company would be glad to take meat at an earlier hour. You say they objected to that proposal ?—Mr. Bennett, of that same company, said last week he was not prepared to discuss the question at all of taking the meat down at an earlier hour and starting earlier than at present. As I have said before, we have given them the opportunity on many occasions, and they have not availed themselves of it. 69. You are not aware that on any occasion, either through accident or neglect, a number of trucks, or portion of a train, was left to occupy sixteen hours between Belfast and Lyttelton ?—Buch a thing has never occurred. We have had a truck that was damaged on the way between Timaru and Christchurch on some occasion two years ago. That was an accident we could not prevent. 70. Have you had many complaints of the want of accommodation ? Do you compel the meat companies to send the stuff by the ordinary trains instead of the specials ?—We have given the meat companies all the specials they wanted, and I have offered them more specials, which they could have taken advantage of. During the last six weeks I offered on three occasions to run Belfast meat down by early trains, and they did not take advantage of it. 71. If the complaint was made by a meat company's representative —that one probable or possible cause of injury to the meat was in consequence of its being sent by ordinary trains—would that be wrong ?—Quite wrong. 72. Mr. Buchanan.] You said that Timaru meat invariably bears favourable comparison to Belfast and Lyttelton, and other Canterbury freezing companies. Does that apply to both Belfast and Islington?— The condition of the Timaru meat compares favourably with the meat from both Islington and Belfast. 73. Can you suggest any reason for this?— The only reason I can suggest is they take greater precautions in loading it from the cool chamber and put it in better order for travelling. They used to put cold air into the trucks at Timaru ; I do not know whether they do it now. 74. When the Eailway Department has been charged with defective insulation of their trucks, has the department ever considered the question of the temperature to which the meat was reduced before being loaded into the trucks ?—That would be for an expert in the building of trucks to answer. We have never had any complaint about the insulation of trucks at all until lately. It is only in the last few months that we have had any complaint of the kind ; and it is only since the meat has been turning out this year damaged in London to a greater extent than in former years that there has been any complaint about the insulation of trucks at all. 75. This point of temperature in the freezing-rooms has never before come under the notice of the Eailway Department ?—Not so far as I know. 76. Do you know if any delay in the unloading of trucks at the ship's side would be likely to damage the meat that is railed down from Belfast and Islington ?—I do not know of any such case. 77. Have the meat-trucks on any occasion been sent down to the wharf and not unloaded for a considerable time ?—I do not think so. We deliver the meat to the wharf, and it is for the shipping companies to direct which trucks they want; and as far as it is in our power we deliver the trucks to the ships in the order that they arrive. That is, we send the earliest arrivals on first. They are shunted down on to the wharf, where they remain at the disposal of the shipping company, and they take them as they want them. For instance, they are getting down lambs and sheep in the same trains, and they may want the lambs in a separate part of the hold. 78. But supposing the department in Lyttelton, wishing to take up empty trucks to be supplied to the frozen-meat works for reloading—have you found any delay in getting empty trucks through delay in unloading ? —Frequently ; some vessels will take seven trucks an hour, and others take four or five. It entirely depends on the condition of the hold, and the facilities for stowing. 79. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether the trucks of the New Zealand Eailway Department are insulated in the same manner as those in Australia? —I could not tell you. Mr. Botherham could explain it. 80. Mr. Duncan.] Have you been in charge of the Dunedin Section ?—Yes. 81. Could you tell me the average time for the carriage of meat from Oamaru to Port Chalmers?—About five and a half or six hours by the ordinary train. It is worked in the same manner from Oamaru to Port Chalmers as from Timaru to Christchurch—by special and ordinary train. By the ordinary train about five and a half or six hours, and by special train it would take about four and a half or five hours. 82. And has there been any complaint about delay ?—None whatever. 83. Is there any provision made for carrying small parcels of dairy produce separate from the sheepskins, &c, on ordinary trains?—On every train we have got what we call a roadside wagon for taking small quantities of goods from roadside stations, and we have got a brake-van, so that we keep them separate. We carry butter, &c, in the brake-van. 84. Is this generally known ?—Yes. 85. I might state that it was Mr. Stevenson's evidence that led me to ask this question, because he said it was a complaint from the South of Dunedin ?—I do not think so. I arranged this matter about three years ago at the instance of the people up the Southbridge line, and that the butter should be kept in distinct trucks, entirely apart from the sheepskins. 86. Are you quite sure there have been no complaints on the Dunedin Section ?—I should not think so. The matter only wanted pointing out if it were so for it to be rectified. 87. Mr. Wilson.] I understood Mr. Gaw to say that he did not think there was a delay of more than two hours to the train leaving Belfast and reaching Lyttelton. The department, however, in their report say six hours.—That includes loading at the works and discharging at the ship. I am giving the time from station to station. 88. Is it ever part of your work to go and examine the emptying of the trucks in Lyttelton ? —No.

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89. Does any officer of the department ever do that ?—No; we deliver it alongside the ship. Our business is to send it to the ship and get it discharged. 90. Then you would have no officer to examine the goods ? —The clerk who was delivering would examine the meat, and his attention would be drawn to any meat the company took exception to. 91. Would that tally-clerk be able to give information as to the unloading or carriage on board ship ?—No. 92. He would be there at the hatchway?—He stands on the wharf, and takes a tally of each truck-load. 93. And you have no officer on board ?—No. 94. I have been informed that loading at Lyttelton is often of a careless nature. The meat is shot down into the hold—-allowed to fall—and a large number of carcases allowed to remain in the hold ? —I do not think that is likely, because the meat companies themselves frequently send a man down to see to that, and they would not tolerate anything of that kind. I should say not, at least. We have nothing to do with it. We deliver the meat to the ships, and get a receipt for the number of carcases, and it is then done with. 95. The Chairman.'] Have you ever tested the relative values of charcoal and pumice as insulators ? —That is no part of my business. It is the business of Mr. Eotherham. He constructs the trucks. 96. You do not know whether it has been tested?—No, I could not say. 97. Mr. Flatman.] Nothwithstanding the length of time, Mr. Gaw, that you have told the Committee it takes to rail mutton from Timaru to Lyttelton, and from Oamaru to Port Chalmers, do I understand you to say there is no difficulty in carrying meat in perfect order such a length of time in the present insulated trucks that you use now on the line ?—Not the slightest difficulty. 98. I think I understood you to say that you had been in charge of the Dunedin Section. How do they forward frozen meat, say, from Burnside to Port Chalmers ? —By ordinary trains and specials. By special when sufficient business warrants it, and at other times by ordinary trains. 99. What would be the average time from Burnside to the ship's chambers at Port Chalmers ? —-About six'hours from the time they commenced to load. 100. Mr. Wilson.] In the petition it says : " That the meat, after leaving the factories, is often subjected to serious delay in transport to the ship's side. While the distance from the Belfast and Islington factories to Lyttelton does not exceed thirteen miles, it is frequently as much as six hours after leaving the factory before the meat can be put on board ship." Do you, then, say that the delay is not six hours ?—There is no meat taken from either of these works that is more than two hours in transit, and the great bulk of it is less than one hour—that is, between the meat-works and the ship's side. If there is any delay, it is the delay in taking it on board, which we have no control over. 101. With regard to the meat railed from Timaru to Lyttelton, you say that the trucks are just the same in both cases?— Exactly the same. Mr. McLachlan (to the Chairman.)] I understand, sir, that the object of this Committee is to inquire—and try to find out, if possible—where the difficulty is in transit from the works to the ship and from the ship to London. We had very valuable and important evidence on the last few days; and, as several members of the Committee seem to have had copies of the evidence given to them, it places a member who has simply to rely on his memory at a great disadvantage. Mr. Wilson : I rise to a point of order. Would it not be better that any information of this kind should come before the Committee later on ? The Chairman : Yes ; I must rule it so. Mr. McLachlan can bring this in due form before the Committee. Mr. W. Nelson, of Nelson Brothers Freezing Company, made a statement, and was examined. I have read the petition this morning, and I notice that in it particular stress is laid upon the damage that is reported to have occurred on the meat as having occurred during the operation of trucking, and I gather from the questions that I have heard asked that considerable importance is attached to the matter of trucking. In my own experience—and it is the best guidance I can give you—the trucks which are in use have carried our own meat for the last fourteen years with absolute success, and without the slightest complaint having to be brought from myself as representing my company. We have in our use now some of the first trucks that were ever put into the service, and we have trucks of later construction, and they have all worked equally well. That, I think, disposes of the trucks, roughly speaking. 102. Mr. Wilson.] You do not inject any cold air into the trucks ?—Nothing at all. Mr. Nelson: One of our works occupies from thirteen to fourteen hours from the time we commence to load the sheep into the truck until it gets into the steamer. We cannot do it in less than thirteen, and it is generally between thirteen and fourteen hours. That is a fairly sufficient test, and that is done in Hawke's Bay, which is a warmer climate than Christchurch. We have other works which occupy roughly about eight hours. They occupy a variable time, because sometimes we carry by special and sometimes by ordinary trains. From these two works there have been a considerable number of sheep shipped, on an average from seventy to eighty thousand sheep a year for the past ten years. And from our works nearer port we have shipped from one hundred to two hundred thousand annually, the work invariably occupying from four to five hours. So that in our case it is not the time and not the trucks in which the mischief occurs. The question where the mischief does arise is, of course, rather large, and it is rather delicate for me as a meat-freezer to touch upon. If it were not for the extreme gravity of the matter I should not care to say anything, but as it is I am bound to say all I believe. Speaking of my own meat, I speak with absolute confidence. When talking of other companies I can only surmise to some extent. My

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own view of the question with regard to the shipping companies and the freezing-works is that there is blame attachable to both. The shipping is not clear from blame, neither are the freezing-works. The chief thing that I am disposed to think accounts for this trouble is the very common practice of shipping meat before it has been sufficiently frozen. Some of the freezing companies, I believe, try to make themselves believe that a sheep which is hard on the outside when it comes out of the freezing-chambers is necessarily a properly-frozen sheep. Experience has taught me that although a sheep may be perfectly hard when it is in the freezing-works with twenty-four hours' freezing the same sheep is not absolutely frozen in less than a week. That is to say, there is heat in the interior of the sheep which is gradually extracted and cannot be extracted entirely under a week's freezing. Consequently, if a ship's hold is filled up with sheep that have been frozen twentj-four, or even forty-eight, hours only there is so much stowed-away heat in the accumulated contents of a ship's hold that in due course the whole cargo begins to suffer. And there the ship's difficulty comes in. The ship, we may assume, is supplied with sufficient power to carry sheep which are already properly frozen; but if the interior of a sheep is not properly frozen, then the first function of the ship's machinery is to complete the freezing which the freezing company itself should have done. Attributing bone-stink to the ship is such an utterly preposterous thing that one can hardly conceive any man spending his breath in such a suggestion, as it must be clear to any member of the Committee that bone-stink is in the centre of a sheep, and can only arise at one stage in the manipulation of a sheep. For instance, if any company tries to do more work than they are able to carry out with their appliances, they might get their sheep too thickly hung up, so that the heat cannot get away from them. Those sheep may remain at a certain temperature, which temperature is the proper one for setting up putrefaction. It can only be set up at that stage, and though the sheep is frozen bone-stink may be set up inside it prior to freezing. It must be clear to the Committee that any mischief that comes to sheep after they are frozen must come from the outside and not the inside. Mischief could not get to the inside of a sheep which has once been properly frozen until the outside has gone bad. I think that disposes of the bone-stink question, so that it is rather unfair for a ship to be charged with it. I think that a great deal of this trouble is brought about by the great anxiety of competing freezing companies—in some parts of the South Island there has been very considerable competition —to secure work. And it leads very frequently to an attempt being made to kill, in a few days, many more sheep than the works are able to deal with, and if that does happen, of course trouble must arise. In my own case, the limit of my day's work is what I can deal with properly. In some cases my opinion is that the limit is the amount of work that is forthcoming, whether it can be done properly or cannot. There are companies which are freezing at such an extremely low rate that it is absolutely impossible for the work to be done perfectly. I speak from actual experience, and know it would be utterly impossible for any freezing company to freeze at the terms that are sometimes offered. The conclusion I come to is that if the freezing charge is unduly low it means that the low charge is brought about at the expense of good work. From my own point of view, I have always laid it down as a principle that nothing short of absolute perfection is good enough. Every mortal thing that can be done and every penny that can be spent ought to be spent on the freezing of meat to make it a success. In my own works, lam charged with being extravagant. Ido everything as well as I can ; and my charges are high, by comparison. But I ask you to make a special note of this : during all the years we have been at work we have never had such a thing as bone-stink in sheep, and no complaint has been made ; and I do not think this is entirely a matter of accident. I have here a paper which bears on that subject. It is a copy of a letter that was sent by the underwriters in London. It is an extract from a letter sent from London when there were proposals made for supervision on the landing of sheep, and to raise the rates of insurance. It is as follows : "It has been found that such an arrangement with Lloyd's was impracticable, as it was alleged that hitherto the claims on their policies had been for very small amounts, the meat covered being almost exclusively Messrs. Nelson Brothers', which meat, it was stated, was exceptionally handled through all its stages, with the result that it reached its destination in so good a condition that there was no need to wish for any change in the terms upon which it was insured." 103. Mr. Wilson.] You might explain, Mr. Nelson, what that arrangement was.—lt was for the examination of meat in London on the arrival of the ships. There had been such an enormous number of claims at that time on the underwriters that there was a proposal on their part to raise the rate of insurance. I only give that to prove that it is possible to ship meat under the worst conditions in which it can be shipped, and yet get it to London all right. 104. You stated that you thought they were freezing at too small a cost. What do you charge for freezing?— The actual cost of freezing I do not know how to define, because all our items are mixed up in what they call a consolidated rate. 105. The charge in the South is id. ? —I should think our equivalent charge for id. would be £d. I should be able to answer that question, but unfortunately I do not do enough of my own bookkeeping to remember what we are charging at the moment. It is approximately -Jd. 106. You do not ship with one line only, but with various lines, I suppose'?— Yes. 107. And with different vessels belonging to these particular lines?— More or less. 108. Have you observed any special difference in relation to different vessels ? Have you been more satisfied with the meat unloaded from certain vessels than from others ?—We find it more uniform from the Tyser Line than others. 109. And there are no set of vessels which you think suitable to the trade in which there is more damage done than others? —Personally, I gather that more from outside report than from my own knowledge. I should explain, to make it more clear to you, that we are shippers of meat in the other lines, but the bulk of the meat in the other lines is meat not manipulated by ourselves. 4—l. 9.

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It is some years since we have shipped our own meat by the other lines. We used to ship pretty largely by the other lines at one time, and we have had some amount of damage more or less, but never any serious loss. 110. And then you said a good deal of the unsatisfactory condition of the meat at Home arises from the meat being shipped at too early a stage, and you stated that some sheep were shipped after being frozen only twenty-four hours ? —That was my belief. 111. Do you know from your own knowledge that the sheep are only frozen twenty-four hours ? —I took the precaution when I commenced my remarks to state that I was speaking to the best of mv belief. Ido not assert that it is so ; I believe that it is. 112. And yet you would make a statement that no sheep ought to be frozen for less than six days to arrive in a satisfactory condition ? —lf a ship's hold is to be filled with meat from top to bottom then it ought to be frozen not less than six days. On several occasions I have shipped meat that has been frozen twenty-four hours, but only to put on a top tier on a hold full of meat or when going from one part to another to put on a bottom tier. It is important to mention this, because in the frozen-meat trade there is always some proof coming up to capsize almost anything one says. So that if I say a sheep ought to be frozen a week before it was shipped, I should look rather silly if I proved that I had shipped sheep frozen only twenty-four hours. 113. And successfully?— Yes, but only under these conditions. Otherwise it would end in trouble. 114. You said your business was conducted on two lines—you ship your own meat and you buy from other works ?—Yes. 115. You buy all over the colony? —Yes. 116. And in Christchurch as well? —Yes. 117- And you have bought sheep frozen at Islington and at Belfast ?—Yes. 118. Have you inspected these particular sheep yourself?— Not before shipping. 119. You have inspectors at the port of shipment who see it being shipped ?—Not at the port of shipment. We have always been sufficiently confiding to take the freezing-work's certificate for everything. 120. And you have no inspector to watch it being shipped ?—No. 121. Do the shipping companies have an inspector there to watch the shipments ?—I really do not know. 122. Mr. Flatman.'] You spoke of it taking up to eight hours, I think, from one of your works, and thirteen or fourteen hours from another works to the port of shipment. Does that mean from chamber to chamber, or the time on the railway ? —lt means absolutely from chamber to chamber. 123. What is the difference between your charges and the cheapest rates that you have heard quoted for freezing? —I have heard that the actual freezing charge has been down to -J-d., or even less. 124. And what difference would that be between yours and such a quotation, approximately? —I should suppose that -J-d. in Christchurch is a rate given under extraordinary circumstances. But our freezing charge, from one end of the year to the other, the cheapest we have ever quoted, is from fd. to fa. I told Mr. Wilson -J-d. average. 125. That would be a difference of fully fd. between yourselves and the price quoted by previous witnesses ?—I should think so. 126. Could you say whether the rate for freezing on the Tyser Line is the same as other lines, especially the lines on which we have heard complaint ?—Yes ; they use the same process. Ido not think they have the same makes of machinery. 127. Do you know if the Tyser Line allow the freezing of the interior of the hull, so as to take away any latent heat that may have accumulated before putting the carcases on board.?— Yes; and that reminds me of a very important feature in connection with this trouble. We are supposed always to cool down for forty-eight hours before we put the sheep in. Thirty-six hours is supposed to be the shortest time, but I have been making inquiries about that before I came down here, and I elicited this fact: That although thirty-six hours is their minimum, they have on one or two occasions done it in sixteen. But that is entirely against the understanding that we have—that it should never be less than thirty-six, and forty-eight the proper time. There is not a more important point in the whole of the ship's responsibility than that cooling-down of the holds before the meat is put in; and it is one that has had the least attention paid to it. The supervision that these holds get is of such a nature that it is of no value. The thermometer, if it is judiciously placed, may show the temperature to be at zero, whereas it may actually be 50 deg. higher. That is really the most important thing in connection with the shipping. 128. Would you treat your chambers in that way ? —Yes; forty eight hours is supposed to cool the chambers, but not less than thirty-six. 129. Mr. McLachlan.] Does the -J-d. include fellmongery and everything else ?—No, I should think not. I believe it is the freezing charge pure and simple. 130. Can you attribute any cause for the mildewed condition of the sheep arriving in London ? —Yes ; I cannot tell you how it happens, but I know what will produce it. 131. State it.—What will produce mildew and spottiness is allowing the freezing-chamber on board ship or elsewhere to get into a partial thaw, something above 32 deg., and remain in that condition for any appreciable period. It is a kind of thing you can easily conceive arising in places that are absolutely air-tight. It is the same in a freezing-chamber as in a man's cellar. Where there is some damp the mildew at once arises. My own belief about spotting is that it is a portion of the mischief that commences simultaneously with mildew. 132. Would a sheep exposed to the sun be effected in like manner?— You might set a properly frozen sheep out in the sun a couple of hours, and it would not hurt as far as mildew and spottiness are concerned. It might interfere with its bright appearance.

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133. Do you observe any difference in the conditions of the arrivals in London between winter and summer ?—No, no appreciable difference. 134. You are speaking of the freezing of sheep to a certain length of time. Have you ever observed that the loss would be greater in proportion to a large sheep than a small one, supposing they go wrong ? —Well, we do not let them go wrong. 135. I think you said that sheep that had been frozen for twenty-four hours, or a very short period of freezing, would not be likely to keep, and you assigned that as a reason for the bonestink ?—Oh, no ; I did not say that at all. That opens up another phase of the question altogether. If a sheep not properly frozen were put into the hold in the condition Mr. Flatman has suggested, all this case-hardening would disappear. The interior of the sheep would complete its damnation, and the result would be that they would flatten out on the floor of the ship, and eventually hermetically seal that part of the ship's chambers, and remain there and never get frozen at all. The whole cargo would flatten, and if they flattened down sufficiently, then they would go wrong. If they are soft enough to enable them to run into a compact mass the cold air cannot get to them, and produces what we have too often heard of. The sheep often are condemned by many hundreds in a ship, sometimes thousands. If the ship has five hundred or six hundred sheep that the health inspector has condemned, you may take it for granted that there are ten thousand that are partially damaged in that same ship. Then, those ten thousand sheep damage the value of other sheep in the London market. The most serious loss we, as speculators in meat, have had this year has been the result of depreciation in value of frozen meat, owing to the arrival of bad sheep on the market. It is an enormous injury to the trade. The Chairman : That is a most important thing. 136. Mr. Buchanan.] You have given it as your opinion, Mr. Nelson, that, at all events, a considerable portion of the damage reported as to frozen meat in the ships arises from the frequent practice of putting it on board after only twenty-four hours or a little more of freezing in the freezingrooms ?—That is, so far as the responsibility attaching to the works is concerned. 137. Supposing a ship loads from four separate freezing-works, and in each case a small proportion of the sheep are frozen for twenty-four hours or a comparatively short time would that, in your opinion,' be sufficient to lead to damage of the cargo or portions of it if the ship had her machinery in proper order ? —I should say that would depend entirely upon the proportion of badly-frozen sheep, and on the position in which they might be placed in the hold. If there is any considerable quantity of unfrozen sheep spread over the ship, the power some of these ships are supplied with is so nearly what they require for storing purposes that they have nothing left for completing this freezing work. 138. Imagining it so, is it not a fact that a ship must have a considerable amount of reservepower for carrying her through the latitudes, where the air-temperature is very high and the seawater rises up to 80 deg. or so in temperature ? —That is so; and that is where I consider my contention is borne out. I believe that a lot of these carcases are not even properly frozen by the time they get to the tropics. The necessary reserve-power ought to be in the ships themselves by the time they get there ; but if the machinery has such an enormous lot of work to do which should have been done by the freezing company —which I believe it sometimes has—it may happen that they have actually not completed their freezing work before they get to the tropics. 139. Not even in the three weeks which elapse from final departure here until they get to the hot tropical weather? —That is so ; that is my belief. 140. In such a case as that would not the engineer's log at once disclose the incapability of the ship's freezing-machinery to keep down the temperature to the proper level ? —I do not attach any importance whatever to a ship's log, because a ship's log may be wrong without the slightest knowledge of the man who is writing it up. A thermometer may show anything. Now, any one who has taken any interest in freezing knows it is quite a common thing for them to say that a freezing-building will hold its cold for a certain length of time after the temperature of that building has got down to a certain point. After a machine stops it will go down to a certain point, and will there hang, for some reason or other. 141. I did not quite catch that?—l was speaking of the difference between the actual condition of a ship's chamber and what the thermometer may say it to be. As soon as the man that works the log finds the thermometer at a certain stage he stops the machinery. That is his instruction. If he were to write up the log again an hour afterwards, the probability is he would find the thermometer had gone up 15 or 20 degs. in that time, because these unfrozen sheep had absorbed all this cold, and he is not getting on half as far as he thinks he is, and when he gets to the tropics he is completely stumped; and yet that man thinks he is right, because the thermometer says he is right. 142. Your supposition, as stated by you, implies that the engineer only takes his temperature after running his machinery for a certain time ? —I presume that he does. 143. To put it shortly, Does not your supposition involve bad work on board that ship, and want of understanding of his business by the engineer ? —Well, I should think very likely the instructions that they get are sometimes not as proper as they ought to be. But I cannot say about that. While on the subject of this, you appear to think that lam a " wee " bit exaggerating about the amount of power that is absorbed by sheep when they are supposed to be frozen. I know of an instance in my own knowledge of freezing-works being full of sheep, or nearly full, and when they began to ship them they found they were not in proper order. It was referred to me. I at once told them they were to stop killing and go on freezing these sheep until they were fit for the ship. And it took eight solid days to do what I call this back freezing. Now, I would not say it would have happened, but it is quite possible that with less precautions than we took, and had they been offered to other lines than the Tyser Line, they might have been taken right off. You will see by this eight days' work that they did on shore what the ship would have had to do in addition to the ordinary work if they had gone to sea.

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144. How did you ascertain that the sheep were not fit for putting on board ship ?—ln this individual case we had a representative of our own watching this individual lot of sheep. Of course you will see that I cannot speak of localities, because that would not be proper. My answer is absolutely accurate that we had on this occassion a representative at these works looking after this shipment. In our own boats—the Tyser Line—we have our own supervisor there watching the sheep that are being taken on board. When we are shipping by other lines we have no supervision, but when by our own we have a supervisor, and his instructions are that the sheep are not to go in any case until in proper order. 145. Mr. Lang.] How does he tell they are not in proper order?—On this occasion the bags were damp. 146. Mr. Buchanan.] Of course the Committee want your opinion, and not mine, but it is quite obvious that it only required a sufficiently large proportion of imperfectly-frozen sheep to produce the effects that you refer to. But do you not think it unlikely that, in practice, the proportion of such partially-frozen sheep is too small to at all account for the large amount of damage that we have had again and again in the New Zealand trade ?—There, of course, I am put in rather an awkward position in answering that. Because I think there is plenty of room ; because we know that there are works in the colony that have been freezing something like three to four thousand animals a day. The numbers that are frozen nowadays are so great that there may be enough frozen in two or three days to fill a ship's hold. 147. Are you aware that there are certain ships that are notorious for repeated damage to carcases, while there are other ships equally noted for carrying their meat safely ?—Tes ; I have seen that more in the papers than I know it of my own knowledge. But that is so. 148. For instance, the " Kaikoura," by the latest 'Frisco Mail, is reported to have damaged her meat badly. Do you know of your own knowledge, or rather by report, that that ship has been damaging her meat repeatedly ?—I have heard the Shipping Company's boats chiefly condemned as carrying meat badly, but I do not know enough about that to venture to say on an occasion like this which ship is the greater culprit. . 14.9. D.o you know of your own knowledge that the shippers have refused to put any more meat on board that steamer ? —No, I do not. 150. Have you ever known of the " Doric" damaging her meat? —No ; she always carried very well. 151. Would the fact of the " Doric " and other ships carrying their cargoes without damage not tell against your supposition about freezing companies ?—On the face of it it would appear so, but that is quite capable of being explained. The " Doric " has always had particularly good men on her, for one thing. Her holds were not unduly large, because she never carried a great number of sheep ; and the size that these holds have lately got to, of course, adds very materially to the amount of mischief done, if there is any mischief. The power on the " Doric " was very considerable to the amount of hold-space she had. Many of these ships have increased the capacity of hold after hold, but have not increased their machinery. But of course the " Doric " never increased up to a very large extent; and my belief is that there has never been so much mischief to mutton as there has been during the past twelve months, when the " Doric " has been away. I think, myself, that it will be found that a good deal of that is to be accounted for by the enormous amount of additional tonnage we have got in the colony just now, and each shipping line wanting to get possession of the mutton away from the other, and to get away the ship as soon as possible. Each vessel is chivvying the other round the colony to get possession of any meat that is to be carried. 152. I wish to read a short quotation from Mr. Henry Gray's report to the Government, and to ask your opinion upon it. It runs thus: " S.s. ' Buapehu.' I was informed that the temperature of the holds were ascertained from the trunks only, for the reason that such thermometers as had been suspended from the deck had become jammed by freezing. I examined the entries in the log, and found the records of from 16 deg. to 20 deg. for meat holds, and 48 deg. to 50 deg. for cheese, had been entered as the readings for the last occasion of taking temperatures. I found the temperatures of produce to be as follows : Butter, 20, 22, 25, 22, 20degs. ; cheese, 32, 35, 45, 50, 51, 51, 56degs. In face of such findings, which I regret to say are not exceptional, as my reports have already shown, it is impossible to place any value upon the records of the thermometers placed in such positions as are those above referred to. What is the use of an engineer producing a thermometer which shows that a temperature of 48 deg. is ruling at that point, when immediately afterwards I examined cheese taken from within a few feet of the same point, and find 56 deg. or 32 deg., according to whether the goods were stowed in the middle of the chamber or at the trucks ? " My question on that is this : That if such tricks as these are permitted in the management of ships, how can any good management in the freezing-works here prevent meat being damaged ?—I have already given my opinion pretty freely on the subject of the value of thermometers as they are used. 153. In discharging meat from your various freezing*works, have you any rule as to what the temperature of your freezing-rooms should be for a certain time before unloading into the trucks, so as to carry over a certain distance in a certain time ? —Yes ; I have had, for a good many years, the rooms down to Zero. We always keep the store-rooms down to about 10 deg., and I have had them down to Zero for a couple of days before shipping; but this last year or two I have been gradually working upwards, and now we do not go below 10 deg. at any time, and still the results are satisfactory. But we do make it a point that the temperature, whatever we fix it at, is always kept to it within a few degrees. 154. Is the Committee to understand that, in your opinion, it would be impossible to carry meat for such a length of time as you have stated with safety unless you put your rooms down to that low temperature —say, lOdeg. ?—Ten degrees. But the chief point is that that same sheep should not come out of a room standing at 10 deg. ; it should be in a room at 10 deg. for a week.

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Pifteen degrees might be enough ; but it should be at 15deg. for a week, and not simply on the davit was shipped. 155. Mr. Duncan.] Have you ever had any meat of your own freezing damaged in London?— Of course we have had damages from sundry outside causes. We have had damages from a leaky ship, but we have never had any complaint of meat going bad, or anything of that kind. 156. Have you ever shipped on these ships that have had damaged meat?—We have not shipped by the New Zealand Shipping Company now for some time, although we have had meat from other places which has arrived in their boats and been bad. But lam bound to say, in justice to the ship, that one of the causes from which our worst trouble arises is from bone-stink, which, I say, cannot be due to the ship. Of course it should be understood, Mr. Chairman, that when we say we have never had any claims whatever, I am speaking in a comparative sense. 157. Mr. Wilson.] You said you had no special knowledge of the different vessels wiiich were turning out bad meat, but here is a report from Mr. Gray in London bearing on the matter : " As regards frozen mutton, I gather that some of the leading importers are like rats trying to leave unsatisfactory ships to those who are probably newer to the business and less experienced as to certain ' old offenders.' ,; That is a serious point, and I should like to ask what the companies are going to do. I would like to ask if there are any old offenders?—lndirectly I have heard of it because it is in the reports of the Colonial Distributing Company. Their circulars report it. 158. That certain vessels are old offenders in this respect? —Yes, I think it might be thus construed. They name certain vessels. 159. Is it your experience that the Tyser ships carry meat safely from other freezingworks as well as your own ?—The meat carried by them has been carried with great success. They have not carried from all the freezing-works in the colony, but they have carried from all the works in the North Island. They have not carried from Lyttelton. Their meat was put on board in proper condition, and carried properly. 160. Is Lyttelton the only port they have not carried from ? —They have never carried from Dunedin and Auckland. They have carried from Invercargill, Wellington, Wanganui, Hawke's Bay, and Gisborne. 161. Mr. McLaohlan.] There are some ships that are bad by habit and repute?— Perhaps so. I do not know. 162. Mr. Flatman.'] Do we understand you to say that the Tyser Line have not carried any Canterbury mutton Home ? —No, never.

Thuesday, 20th August, 1896. —(Hon. Mr. Okmond, Chairman.) Mr. John Stevenson further examined. Mr. Stevenson : The evidence that I wish to give is in connection with the cost of transit of dairy produce on the railways and by ship. I want to try and show that the dairy industry is paying for a great deal of useless stuff, amounting in the year to over £6,000, in the shape of timber alone. 1. Hon. the Chairman.] What do you recommend about this ?—I recommend that the railage should be reduced to a more reasonable rate, and also that freight should be reduced from -Jd. to Jd. per pound net instead of gross. We are paying on the gross at the present time. 2. And your ground is that a large quantity of timber is paying these rates?— Not only that, but the producers at the present time cannot stand it, for it takes about £14 per ton, including cost of manufacture, to get the net results from London. [Eeturn handed in of quantity and value of butter and cheese exported during the year ended 31st March, 1896, Appendix P.] You will see from the return that the total cost on the wood is £6,366. That is on an article we get nothing for. It is the wish of those interested in the dairy industry—l represent both Islands in this matter— that some steps should be taken to get it reduced, as private individuals cannot manage to get shipping companies to reduce the freight. They desire the Government to bring some pressure to bear in this matter. That is about the main thing that I wish to bring forward. 3. Mr. Flatman.] What do you mean by charges on timber ? Is that the butter-boxes ?—The butter-boxes for lcwt. of butter carry 241bs. weight of timber with them, and we are charged on the gross, not on the net. 4. Could not the weight of the timber be reduced, and still the boxes be strong enough ?—No; it has been brought down to the finest point. They were very much heavier at one time. They have been reduced a great deal of late. 5. You speak of £14 per ton. Is that cost to London ?—Yes, including manufacture, it costs rather more on butter, but cheese £14 per ton. 6. How much on butter ? —ln proportion to the value and commission, I should think it would be £15. It is rather higher. 7. Mr. Buddo.] Can you give us, roughly, how the £14 per ton on cheese from your factory to London is made up? —It is made up in manufacture, carriage from the factory and railage to Port Chalmers, freight to London, wharfage, primage, and the terminal charges at London, together with the commissions. 8. Of course the carriage and railage would be very small portions of the £14. I presume a large portion of the charge would be freight, combining wharfage and primage ?—Yes. 9. At that rate, presumably, it takes about £13 per ton for freight, including wharfage of course, and the commissions ?—'Well, I mean from the time it leaves the factory until you get your net returns back. 10. Could you tell me, from memory, what the sea freight is to London ?—The gross freight is ■fd. on cheese, and fd. on butter.

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Feedeeick Waymouth, representing the Canterbury Frozen-meat Company, made a statement, and was examined. I was summoned to give evidence with respect to the petition of the Agricultural and Pastoral Association, and also to supply certain information with regard to the work of our company during certain months this year. I will start with railway carriage. The charge for carriage from Belfast to Lyttelton is Bs. 6d. per ton. The company's charge at the present moment for slaughtering, bagging, freezing, railage to port, wharfage, and freight to London is T %d. The freight is -Jd. out of that, giving to the company - 15d. per pound for the work they do. That is equal to about 7d. per sheep. The railage at Bs. 6d. per ton is 2Jd. per sheep out of that. The Committee will at once, therefore, see that the railage for between fourteen and fifteen miles to Lyttelton is very heavy in proportion—is, in fact, one-third of the whole charge which we make for freezing and bagging. We have all along considered that a very excessive charge—in fact, we look upon it as a tax rather than a railway rate. The railage for frozen meat for a similar district in Victoria, if I remember rightly, is less than one-third of the charge in New Zealand. I refer to the distance from Newport to Port Melbourne. Much better facilities are given there for carriage. I may also say the rate of frozen meat has never yet been placed on the railway tariff-list ;it has been taken as fresh meat. Fresh meat was in the list of articles enumerated in the various classes before freezing was thought of, and was there for the purpose of making provision for the small amount of pigs that were killed by the farmers on their farms, and railed to the bacon factories at Christchurch. For that purpose special trucks had to be provided, and of course, at the time of which I speak —fifteen years ago — the quantity so carried was very small indeed. [Figures in support of statement put in Appendix L.] The frozen meat has never been classified yet, as I said before, and we think it should be classified, and some considerable concession could well be made in the rates charged, especially when it is borne in mind that at the present moment Australia is becoming a very keen competitor with us in the frozen-meat trade. When in Australia about three months ago, I found the Governments in Queensland, New South Wales, and Victoria were all vicing with each other as to who should give the best and cheapest facilities in order to foster and encourage the trade. Such being the case, and seeing the effect their competition is having on the prices in London, the companies more especially concerned in the carriage of meat think they should receive more consideration at the hands of the railway authorities with regard to the meat. [Figures quoted and handed in showing quantity and value of produce exported from Belfast, also of the New Zealand Provision and Produce Company, &c. The following other papers handed in : Statement of expenditure at Belfast Freezing-works, for coal, wages, &c. Expenditure in freight: Statement of present charges by the company for freezing meat, &c.; return of killing for 1895; return of killing for 1896 (Appendices G, H, I, J, X); summary of frozen meat exported from New Zealand for six months ending 30th June, 1895; similar return for six months ending 30th June, 1896; shipments of frozen meat by the company for the months of January and February, 1896; return of killing for January and February, 1895; report from Messrs. H. S. Fitter and Sons, dated 11th July, 1896 ; and review of frozen-meat trade, 1895, by W. Weddel and Co.] Taking all the year round, we had the use of 27-| vans, and paid as much as £165 6s. 3d. during the year, per van. I do not know whether any other class of railway vans can show a like result. I think I have now said sufficient to show the Committee the great importance of the industry both to the country, to the wage-earners, and to the Eailway Department, and, I hope, sufficient to show the Committee that, in view of the keen competition from other countries, we are worthy of consideration in the matter of reduction in charges. The railway rate is the only rate that has remained stationary since the inception of the trade ; while sea freights have been reduced from 2d. per ton to an average of below a penny, insurance from 10 per cent, to about 2J per cent, net, and landing charges from an average of about fd. per pound to about Jd. You see every charge, except the railway rates, has met with a reduction, to the benefit of the trade. We work our company practically on co-operative principles, and any reduction in freight that we would get would at once go to the sheep-farmers who supply us with stock, because we regulate our charges as near as possible, so as only to give our shareholders what we consider a fair interest on their capital, considering the risk they have to run. With regard to railway facilities, the principal grievance with regard to trucks is that very little attention is paid to having them kept white. Of course they go through that tunnel very frequently, and the result is, that a large proportion of them are as black as this table, or very nearly so. The result is, of course, they are very liable to the radiation of heat from the sun. The trains, so far as Belfast is concerned, are very unsuitable, more especially two of them. The first train in the morning leaves Belfast a little after 9, and reaches Christchurch at 10 o'clock, where the Port train leaves at five minutes to 10. Consequently, our meat has to follow on by a goods train, and it rarely reaches the ship before half-paat 11, leaving the works a few minutes after 9. You must remember the distance is only fourteen miles. Then the men at Lyttelton go to dinner at 12 o'clock, so that there is only half an hour's work on the average on our morning train's meat before they leave off work. Then the other train leaves Belfast at about 11 o'clock, and arrives at Lyttelton about half-past 12. It has then to stand until 1, and then the greater part of the meat arriving by the morning train is in its way. The result is, the ships are very rarely given sufficient to do in the morning, and our meat is standing out in the hot sun, because of the inconvenience of the train arrangements. We have advocated for some years alterations in the train arrangements, but so far unsuccessfully. Practically the whole of the people on the North Line are discontented with the train-service, owing to slowness and to want of safety by crossing at Southbrook, where there is want of platform accommodation, and telephonic and telegraphic communication. If the department would aid us in the matter of working trains better to Lyttelton, the amount of work done by the trucks could be considerably increased. The quantity of trucks for the service will have to be increased in the future, because there is a third ■works going up in Christchurch, and three works will want trucks instead of two, and necessarily

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the subdivision of the trucks will cause them to do to some extent less work than they otherwise would. Ido not think I need say anything further with regard to that part of the subject. I was asked by the Committee to give particulars of shipments during January and February. 11. Hon. the Chairman.] The Committee would like to have in your statement what information you can give as to the damage on board ship. Can you give any information on that subject?— Yes, I can give information on that subject, of course, from the fact that our agreement with the ships is that they have to take nothing in unless properly frozen, and they can reject any they think is not properly frozen or in a fit condition. As bearing on the fact of the damage that has taken place, either in the ship or in London, I can say that this year on two or three occasions, meat has been shut out of one ship and put into another. The ship that shut out damaged a large proportion of her meat, and the proportion shut out of her and put into another ship was landed sound. 12. What loss have you had during the past period you have been dealing with in this way?— I have had no advice of loss since January and February last. The losses we had occurred in'three ships, more particularly the "Tekoa," " Tongariro," and "Euahine." The other ships, the " Tainui," " Duke of Sutherland," "Tokomaru," and "Gothic," loading about the same time, all delivered their meat, as far as I know, in good condition. 13. What were the vessels in which the loading of meat took place where it turned out badly in one vessel and the other did well?— The "Euahine" and "Gothic." About four thousand carcases were sent. The "Euahine" took about three thousand, and 700 were sent next day to the "Gothic." The "Euahine" damaged her meat, but the "Gothic" landed hers sound. In the same way, take the " Tokomaru " and the " Tongariro." We began loading the " Tokomaru" on the Bth February. We next stopped the "Tokomaru," and then loaded the " Tongariro," and then went on again with the "Tokomaru." On the " Tokomaru "we shipped nearly thirty-five thousand carcases, and the number of these damaged was sixty-four. The " Tongariro " was undoubtedly the worst-damaged shipment that reached London where a ship had no breakdown. Seeing that the loading of these vessels was going on occasionally on alternative days—and, so far as we were concerned, there was no picking of the meat at all—it must be evident that, if the meat that -went in one vessel was good and arrived in London sound, it was not the fault either of the railway carriage or ourselves that caused the damage in the other vessel. 14. In all these cases of damaged cargoes, were they large proportions?—ln the " Tongariro " large proportions. One of my clients had about three hundred and twenty damaged, of which about ninety were absolutely condemned, out of about three hundred and fifty. Sir John Hall, a client of the Islington Company, out of a shipment of about five hundred, had all more or less damaged. He only had six landed sound. 15. Can you give any information to the Committee how the partial damage is caused?— Either by deficient insulation or allowing the temperature to get too high. lam very much afraid the ships run away with the erroneous idea that the thawing-point of meat is the same as water. It is considerably lower than 32 deg., however. 16. Would this be remedied by having a regulation under which temperature of a fixed rate would be kept up ? —The bill of lading provides for that already ; but, of course, as the ship itself keeps the logs, we have absolutely no check on them as to the logs. 17. None beyond the ship's own record ? —No. 18. Have you any general recommendation to make, or opinion to express, as to the classification of meat and certificating of meat when it leaves the factories being provided for, as has been suggested by some other witness, by having some small additional charge imposed for the purpose of official supervision?—Of course, such a thing could be done; but, so far as we are concerned, we have the supervision already, because the men who freeze are not responsible. It is a different class of men who do the loading; and the tally-clerks check the condition, and, of course, the ship itself checks again when the meat arrives in Lyttelton. 19. Would it, in your opinion, be a good thing if all meat frozen for export were shipped under the guarantee of some responsible person appointed for the purpose ?—There is no doubt it will be a great benefit to the trade to do so. Of course, we issue certificates ourselves to the shippers, which they want for their insurance purposes, but the ship herself is the best check. 20. Would such a check entail considerable cost, or trifling cost ? —Considerable cost undoubtedly, because when loading is going on we work with relays of men very long hours. We begin at half-past two in the morning, and do not stop until seven o'clock in the evening, although generally it is finished by the afternoon, about four o'clock. 21. Supposing there was such a system of certificating meat as it left the factories, would not that, if it were to be useful, have to be again supported by a similar system as to the condition in which the meat was taken on board the ship, and as to the manner in which it had been treated during the voyage ?—Yes; but you would want an independent man on board every ship. The ship is not the only check as to the condition we have in Lyttelton. The loading operations are always supervised and carefully watched by the Marine Underwriters' surveyor, and he at once reports if he thinks the meat is not in a fit condition for shipment. 22. Supposing there were proper certificates required, and that meat was only shipped which was inspected and passed both as to the condition when it leaves the factory and as to its being delivered to the ship after transit in fit condition, would not that throw the responsibility wholly on the ship?— Undoubtedly it would. 23. Then, it would be necessary to have a person to look after the vessel ?—No ; the responsibility would rest on the ship, because her business is to take only meat properly frozen, and we give them an entirely free hand. Our system of working is always to have a clean bill of lading, and we allow them a free hand as to what they take and what they reject. 24. Would it cost very much to have such a system as I talked about?—So far as Belfast is concerned, it would take two men to do it.

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25. But that would not cost very much—a small rate would pay for it ?—Oh, yes, I think so. We are making arrangements now to have our own inspectors at Lyttelton. 26. Would you say whether classification under inspection would be practicable and useful ?— Ido not think there would be any necessity in the case of a company like my own. We never buy a carcase. We never own a sheep. We are only a grist-mill, so to speak, and do the work for other people; and, of course, ours is a perfectly independent classification in grading. We have no interest to serve except the interest of the trade. So that any further classification from an outside source we should reckon in our case to be of little value. 27. We are asking for information as to whether it is desirable to impose conditions which would be of benefit to the trade in the whole colony. From that point of view?—l have only stated it from my point of view, and not of the other companies. 28. Were there any other points you had in view before you referred to that just now ? —I do not think so, except there is no doubt a very considerable amount of depreciation goes on in our meat in connection with the discharge in London. We some time ago asked the shipping companies if they could induce the dock companies to build stores in which the cargoes might be landed, and there sorted and delivered, instead of being sorted and delivered in the ship's hold. We said we would be willing to bear a portion of the expenses entailed, but nothing appears to have come of it yet. There is no doubt the system of discharging in London, where the hatches are kept open for a long time, is imperfect. The men will not work in London while the machinery is going. The men all trampling over the meat, and the general rough usage that it gets, very seriously deteriorates it. 29. Can you suggest a remedy ? —The only remedy we can use is a receiving-store like the general stores on the Wellington Wharf, where all the meat would go straight from the ship into the store, and there be carefully sorted and delivered from there. 30. As to railage: What is the average time the meat is in transit from your works to get into the ship ?—The average time of transit is very nearly two hours, and then, of course, it is according to the quantity sent by each train, and how long the last truck is before it is unloaded. We always arrange our trucks so that the first truck loaded is the first truck taken into the ship, so as to prevent any difficulty of lying at the wharf. 31. Is that time excessive? Does it run a risk?—lt does run a risk, especially in hot weather. You can easily see that two hours for fifteen miles is excessive for railage. 32. Is any difference made for carriage in hot weather—any difference made between hot and cold?— No. 33. Do you get any special trains ?—We get a special up for live meat, and another for dead meat. 34. You have at your disposal twenty-seven vans. Are they allocated entirely to your works ?—Of course, not necessarily the same vans. There are fifty-five vans on the Christchurch section, and we are allocated half of them. 35. The railway company has never called on you to find vans yourselves ? —No. 36. Are you aware they have done that in other parts of New Zealand ?—I have heard, only on the private railways. 37. Not public railways —Nelson, for instance? —I thought that was only where they built works inland. 38. And they did not call on your company ?—No. 39. And the accommodation given you is insufficient ? —At times it is too much. At times last summer we were jammed for want of vans, and the previous year we were badly off. We could not get the meat out of the works as fast as we were killing. 40. Do I understand that, owing to the accommodation given by the railway, you were unable to keep up continuous loading ?—Yes; we generally send down about twenty vans by a special, which arrives in Lyttelton in time for them to begin work about eight o'clock, and that twenty vans would, roughly speaking, carry about two thousand five hundred sheep—of course, more with lambs. The ship's rate of taking when they work one hold is between eight hundred and a thousand an hour, and, of course, if they work two holds it is double; so that the whole train is generally taken on board by ten o'clock. And then there is no meat of ours can arrive until halfpast eleven. So that there is an hour and a half wasted then ; and then, as I said before, the men have to stop at the dinner-hour. 41. Have you ever remonstrated with the authorities as to the arrangements entailing loss upon meat by shipment in the hot weather ?—Oh, yes, repeatedly. 42. Without avail? —Without avail. The Eailway Commissioners promised it should be attended to, but they have never done so. 43. Have the railway authorities given you any indication that they intend to reduce rates ?— No indication. So far as facilities are concerned, take the way the work is done in Melbourne as compared with Belfast and Lyttelton. Taking the Newport works, there they have nine wagons. Each wagon carries about 10 tons of meat, and when the ship is at Port Melbourne for loading they have a special engine to do the work, and keep it on the work until it is done. 44. Have you instituted any comparison between the railage charges on meat and the charges on other bulky products ?—I did so before the Eailway Committee about two years ago. I showed the Committee the amount earned by a truck of wheat and a truck of meat from Belfast to Lyttelton. [Statement handed in of comparison of railage of grain and frozen meat, &c, between Belfast and Lyttelton.] You will see that wheat is 19s. 2d. ; fresh meat, 13s. Bd.; and frozen meat, £1 9s. Bd. 45. What is the weight of a truck of grain ?—About 5 tons. As I pointed out to that Committee two years ago, our railway-wagons are almost in constant use, whereas a very large reserve of wagons is kept for the grain season, which is only used for about three months in the year.

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46. Some time ago you had some paper to which you wished to make reference?— The Committee asked me to supply evidence as to the dates sheep were received, killed, and frozen, and shipped during January and February. 47. By reference to that return, will you tell the Committee the shortest date after receiving and killing that any stock has been shipped, and in what quantity ?—The shortest date was the " Ruahine." We loaded her from the 9th to the 14th January, and then from the 20th to the 21st January. The first stock was killed on the 3rd January, and the last stock—2so lambs—on the 16th January. That would mean that the 250 lambs would have been five days killed before being shipped. I think that was the shortest time. 48. Was that one of the shipments in which damage took place ?—Yes, she was one ; but they were all about the same time in this case. The " Gothic " was the same. 49. How long would these sheep have been in the freezing-rooms?— Pour days. 50. And you estimate that that is ample? —Oh, yes, ample. 51. What do you consider the minimum time ?—We consider the minimum time in the freezingrooms three days. 52. After that the meat is fit for shipment ?—Yes ; really before that, especially with lambs. 53. Mr. Wilson.] About loading at Lyttelton : What is the process of loading? Have you a tally-clerk only, or an inspector, or what ? —The ship provides its own inspector—the engineer in charge of the machinery. We have no officer, but the Underwriters' Association have an officer who supervises the shipment. 54. Does he see the whole of the carcases put down into the hold, and so on ?—No, not the whole of them; but he takes a look when every train is being dealt with. There are very often two or three ships loading at the same time, and it is impossible to watch every carcase. 55. You speak of three days as being sufficient time to freeze a sheep through. Have you ever made experiments ? —Oh, yes, repeatedly. 56. Have you ever found a whole sheep was frozen through in less time than three days?— For some sheep we only allow two days. 57. Have you any reason to suggest why the sheep in some vessels are flattened by the weight above would be owing to a higher temperature, and allowing them to thaw. 58. And not from their being imperfectly frozen by the companies?'—lt may have been that. 59. What test do you apply to a sheep —an ordinary test ?—The best ordinary test is to try their legs. If the legs are properly frozen the rest is. If you cannot make them move, you can depend that the body is properly frozen. 60. Then, I did not quite catch the statement you made about different vessels. Do you think there are any particular vessels which are worse than others in delivering cargoes in London ? —Oh, I think so, in my experience. 61. Would you state which are the worst, in your opinion ? —I hardly like to do that, if you will excuse me, because we are equally tied to both lines at present; and, further than that, I might tell you that, in one of the cases of damage, unless the shipping company pays the claims we have made upon them, we should need to go to law about it. 62. lam given to understand that very often shippers refuse to ship in certain vessels. Do you know of your clients instructing you so ? —Occasionally they instruct me not to put their meat in a certain ship. 63. And can you carry that out?—Oh, yes. In one case we absolutely refused to ship any more meat in one steamer. We intend to carry that out rigidly. When the " Tongariro " returned last time we absolutely refused to ship in her until they made her fit to carry. 64. Have you seen any reports that were given in the Government returns about shipments ? I saw one only. 65. Mr. Buchanan.] The railway freight on dead meat you said had not been reduced since the commencement of the freezing business. Has the freight on live sheep been reduced ?—Yes. 66. Do they give any special reason why they refuse to reduce on frozen meat ?—No. 67. Have you seen a circular sent out by the Southland Freezing Company ?—Yes. 68. Do you think the contention of that freezing company is good ?—ln what respect ? 69. In relation to the railway freight on frozen meat, and also that taking the different sections of the New Zealand railway-lines, that the freight is generally too high?— The freight is generally too high, excepting when the railway make concessions in the rate as between different ports. In that same connection I might make the same contention. The railage from Timaru to Lyttelton, distance 101 miles, is 195.; the freight for our fourteen miles is Bs. 6d. The two rates bear no proportion to each other. The contention they went on was that the railage from Oamaru to Dunedin per mile was considerably less than from Mataura to the Bluff. 70. It has been said in evidence that the condition of frozen meat delivered from the Belfast and Islington works compare unfavourably with that delivered from the Timaru works. If that statement has been made, is it correct ? And have you anything to say in reply to that ?—I have never heard of the statement being made before. I am quite certain there is no meat shipped in New Zealand in better condition than from Belfast. 71. Have any rejections of meat been made by the shipping companies? Ido not mean any particular freezing company ; I mean in Canterbury generally ? —Yes. Last year in one ship, owing to a train having been long shunted, it missed its turn in being taken in, and I had about ninety carcases rejected that got soft near the doors and tops of the wagons. That is about all, except an occasional sheep which has accidentally got damaged. Of course, I do not know about other works. 72. In any case of damage on delivery of meat at the London docks, you would say the ships are responsible for the damage on that meat ?—I should say so undoubtedly—that is, the damage caused by allowing the holds to get hot when the ships are discharging. I know the temperature gets very high in London, although it is never supposed to be allowed to rise really above 25 degrees. s—l. 9.

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73. It has been stated in evidence to the Committee that damage on board ship largely arises from imperfect freezing by the freezing companies, and that consequently the freezing-machinery on board ship, being only calculated to keep meat already sufficiently frozen, becomes incapable of keeping the temperature down ? —I should say that statement was absolutely untrue. In my own experience, it has repeatedly happened that, of a number of sheep we have killed, one portion has gone to one ship, and the other portion to another ship. They have been both frozen and shipped on the same day; but one ship has landed the meat sound, and the other has landed it damaged. Such being the case, it must be the fault of the ship. 74. In the event of such incapacity in the freezing-machinery, where would thawing in the holds commence first —to the portion at the top or bottom ?—Undoubtedly it would commence at the top or sides; always first at the top, because the cold temperature always remains at the bottom. 75. It has been stated in evidence that the bulk of the damage on board ship has taken place in the lower hold. What reason would you assign for that fact? —Either insufficiency of air or insufficiency of insulation. 76. Imperfect insulation would produce that effect ? —Of course it would. 77. What, in your opinion, is the matter with the insulation ? Could you give any reason for the general complaint of insufficient insulation on board ships ? —Of course, I have not personally examined the insulation of these ships for many years now. We leave that to the Underwriters' Association. lam not in a position to say if there is anything the matter with the insulation. 78. Is not the Underwriters' Association practically interested in refusing to take strong steps against the shipping companies for damage to meat ? Would they not immediately lose their business if meat was perfectly carried from month to month without fail ? —I do not know that they would lose their business entirely; but it would be far more profitable to them if they would aid the freezing companies in their efforts to get the ships into such a condition as would insure a larger proportion of sound deliveries. 79. Eeference has been made to repeated damage by certain ships. Do you know of any ships in the trade that are remarkable for delivering cargoes in good order ?—There is one ship not in the trade at present always proverbial for delivering her cargo in good order. That was the " Doric." I think she carried over a million sheep to England, and I do not think during the whole time she damaged fifty pounds' worth of meat. 80. Are you aware whether it is true or not that the Tyser Line carry their meat in better condition than other companies ?—I am not aware of that. During the time they carried for us they carried very satisfactorily. 81. You make reference to the building of freezing-chambers by the London dock companies to receive cargoes in bulk, and so save the damage that is now going on. How would you arrange that, seeing that such a proportion of frozen meat from New Zealand goes direct in barges to the freezing-chambers away up the river?—lt could still go in the barges up the river. I understand that at the present moment sometimes six barges lie alongside the ships with a portion of their cargoes in waiting there for hours to get the balance of their consignment before they can leave the ship. If the meat was put into the sorting-room, and then put into the barges at a rapid rate, there would be less liability to damage in the barges. 82. Would that method increase the expense of unloading?— Slightly; but I think it would be more than compensated for by the condition of the meat. You must remember there is no doubt damaged meat is one of the worst evils that the trade has to contend against. If a cargo arrives partially damaged it always affects prices. 83. At what temperature do you aim to have your freezing-chambers before you discharge into the trucks?— Generally somewhere between 10 deg. and 15 deg., never above 15 deg. 84. For what length of time do you keep them at that ? —We always keep them at that temperature. 85. It has been stated in evidence before the Committee that it would take a week to properly freeze a sheep ?—We never in the whole course of our business allowed a sheep more than three days for freezing. 86. Has the meat ever been damaged upon the railway-trucks ? I think you stated in evidence that there was some damage on board the trucks ? —The damage I referred to was about ninety sheep returned from one of the ships last summer. That was not the fault of the trucks. As I pointed out, it was through an error made somewhere or other in connection with the consignment or the shunting. It was sent to one ship, and by the time it got round to the ship it was intended for it was blocked by another train, and stood several hours on the wharf. 87. Are you satisfied with the build of the trucks, &c. ?—With the last lot, certainly. Ido not think some of the air-spaces in the old ones are quite as hermetically sealed as they ought to be. 88. Knowing as you do, no doubt, that in Australia meat-trucks have to be in many cases twenty-four hours from the meat-works to the ship under a hot sun, how do you account for their ability to carry their meat in good condition, while contending that the harm takes place in your short distance of fourteen miles between the Belfast works and the wharf ?—Their trucks generally, when going long distances, are supplied with ice, as well as being thoroughly well insulated. 89. Do you mean to say, then, that at the Deniliquin works they supply their trucks with ice ? —I do not know about Deniliquin, but some trucks in Australia are supplied with ice; and then the thawing ice causes cold water to drip down the sides of the cars. 90. Hon. Mr. Johnston.] Do you know whether the barges at Home are insulated ?—I believe they are. 91. Would damage in these barges be put down as marine damage ? —lt generally is. In fact, marine damage covers sixty days after arrival in London, so that, of course, marine damage gets the whole blame for the storage in London as well as the ship.

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92. For damage that might take place entirely outside the ship ?—Yes. 93. You say that the damage to meat last year, I think, was during some particular period ? —So far, I have only had damage in three ships this year. 94. Then, during that period no meat left your works that had not been properly frozen —that is to say, which had not been in the freezing-chamber less than three days ? —That is so. 95. Mr. Flatman.] I think 1 understood you to say that the Victorian charges were about one-third less than on the New Zealand lines ?—No ; somewhere about one-third of the charges. If I remember rightly, the charge from Newport to Port Melbourne is somewhere about 3s. a ton. 96. That would be approximately one-third less than New Zealand ?—No; one-third of. It is about 3s. against Bs. 6d. 97. Are you basing your calculations, then, on the charges from Belfast to Lyttelton, or the charges from Oamaru to Dunedin, or from, say, Timaru to Lyttelton?—On the tariff charge. These carriages between ports are not tariff charges, they are special charges made as between port and port. That special charge is made on all goods on the railway as between Christchurch and Timaru, and Dunedin and Oamaru, and so on. 98. And you also said, I think, that the company's charges are about T Ld. per pound for freezing?—No, (Hsd. 98a. Is that a paying price ?—So far as we are concerned, it is a paying price; otherwise I suppose we should not pay a dividend. 99. Plenty of people pay dividends, and make no profits. You said you paid somewhere about £30,000 a year in wages. If the railway freights were reduced, would you pay more in wages ?—Of course, anything that tends to reduce prices at which we can work tends to increase the business, and more wages would be the result. 100. And if you did not pay more wages, you would be able to pay the farmer more for the stock ?—Just so. But the rate of wages would not increase per man ; the number of men would increase. 101. I want to know whether you would pocket the profits, or would the producers and wageearners ? —We should have the profits until we rearranged our charges; but I know the rearrangement of charges would not be long before it took place. 102. Have you ever refused any special train offered by the Eailway Department ?—Sometimes. 103. Why?— Because I thought circumstances would allow me to make use of the ordinary trains. 104. I think you stated you had not to pay extra for special trains ? —We pay no extra for special trains; but at the same time, if I can avoid the expense of a special train to the Eailway Department, I do so. I often wish the Eailway Department would take that into consideration when I ask for specials that they say they cannot or will not give. But that does not often occur now, I am happy to say. 105. You have had no damage attributed to the imperfect insulation of the railway-trucks, neither new nor old ones ? —No ; but I think some of the old ones would be better for an overhauling now, because I think the shrinkage of the wood has made a little difference. 106. Are you sure there was no breakdown of the machinery of the " Tongariro " on the voyage when "the damage took place ? —I am not aware of that. The Shipping Company, in writing to me on the subject, say the machinery worked well, and the temperature was well maintained. At the same time, there has been a rumour about that she did break down. 107. When your chambers are emptied of mutton, do you freeze the chamber to take any latent heat out of the walls that may have accumulated ? —We never allow the chambers to thaw. 108. I think you said that a truck of wheat earned 19s. 2d. ?—That was at the railway-rate of 3s. 10d. per ton for 5 tons for a distance. 109. Do not the wheat-trucks carry 6 tons?— Generally only 5 tons. 110. If you were told that the grain was 4s. 4d., and they carried 6 tons? —Of course, that would make a difference. 111. You do not think that is the cost?—l do not think so. I quoted these figures before the Eailway Committee two years ago, and the Commissioners were present, and they never questioned the correctness of the figures I produced to them. 112 .In regard to the special charges, do you consider the charges from Timaru out of proportion to those charged to the Belfast and Islington works, taking terminal charges into consideration ?—I think it is the other way about—that ours are out of proportion to the other. There is practically no terminal charge, because either the ships or the companies do all the work. All the terminal charge the railway have is to shunt the meat alongside the ship, and provide a tallyclerk. 113. And if you were told meat required to be kept at a temperature, say, from 10 deg. to 15 deg. previous to being shipped, what would you say to that ?—I should think it quite probable it would be necessary to keep it so. It should, never get above 10 deg. to 15 deg. But then, before our meat is taken out of the freezing-rooms, it is reduced much lower than that. 114. Mr. Buddo.] The principal reason for the Agricultural and Pastoral Association petitioning Parliament was the railway charges and finance ? —I believe so. 115. What is the wharfage charge for a ton of frozen meat? —4d. 116. Is the grain-rate the same? —Yes. The charge used to be 2s. at one time, but the Harbour Board have gradually reduced them both down to 4d. 117. I understood you to say in your previous evidence that one-third of the total charge you pay for sending meat to London was absorbed by the rail charge from the Belfast factory to Lyttelton?—Slaughtering, freezing, bagging, and railage to port: One-third is absorbed by the railway charges.

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118. Do you contend that the railway authorities do not give you sufficient facilities for the rapid transport of the frozen meat to Lyttelton ? —Yes; principally owing, of course, to the inconvenience of the present train arrangements. 119. Would your company be in favour of loading frozen meat largely at night, or the early morning ?—We do as much in the early morning as we can. Of course, if you have to do it at night, it would mean night-work in Lyttelton, which is never so good, even with electric light at the wharves, as day-work; and, of course, it would entail afternoon-loading at the works to get it forward. 120. I understand the loading could not be wholly done in the night, then; a certain amount would have to be done on the previous afternoon ?—Yes. With good expedition, there is really no need for the bulk of the work being done at night. It can be done with better care and supervision in the day too. 121. Then, your company, on these grounds, do not wish that any alteration should be made in the present system except to keep the ship continually loading ?—Yes ; and to expedite the forwarding of the morning passenger and morning goods trains. These are the two trains we are complaining about. 122. I understand you said that the test of a carcase being properly frozen was trying the legs ? —That was the best test we could give. 123. You have no other test ? —We object to testing them by piercing, &c. 124. Would you object to cutting a small percentage or some small quantity off before leaving the factory to see that the work was properly done ? —Such a thing is absolutely unnecessary. We know from the temperature of the meat and the time it has been in whether it is properly frozen. 125. Have you proved that by testing?— Yes. 126. Has the season of the year affected the percentage of good carcases arriving in London? —No ; except sometimes, I think, owing to the season and condition, we sometimes get what is called bone-taint. That has been very rare lately. The seasons have something to do with that. 127. Then, what is known as bone-taint is not to be charged, I presume, to insufficient or rapid freezing in the factory in order to account for the damage during transit ?—No. I think, myself, it arises more than anything else from the condition of the animal. 128. In your knowledge, have shipments by your company right through shown a certain percentage of bone-taint, or was it specially found in any particular portion of the cargo ? —lt is never continuous. When we get bone-taint it is nearly always at one season of the year, and that is when the clover is in very full flush—that is to say, in the March shipments. I think one of the causes of it is the sheep get practically fevered. It is only in some seasons you get it. We have not had it for two seasons. 129. Has it been known that sick sheep would affect bone-taint ?—I have asked the question in London repeatedly. It was always my opinion that that probably had something to do with it. I gather that from this fact: Gentlemen on the Committee are acquainted with the fact that you cannot make corned beef from a cow at certain periods of the year, and that you cannot make bacon from a sow at certain periods. 130. You have no evidence to prove that such is the case ?—No ; we have had stock kept at Belfast six months sometimes, but we have never discovered bone-taint on any that have remained in our "works. 131. Your attention has been drawn to that previously?—Oh, yes. 132. Of course, of your own knowledge, you cannot say whether the condition of the ship affects the cargo on arrival?— No. 133. What is the usual nature of the damage done by them? Is it heating or mould?— They are generally marked as "soft," and "misshapen," "spotted," "blotched," and "mouldy." Of course, these five causes do point to a rise in temperature. You cannot get spot and mould unless there has been moisture. 134. Then, you would not consider it was the condition of the wrapper when it arrives at the ship's side?— No. Of course, it might be the wrapper would affect it if a thaw took place, though we always very carefully brush the snow off, if there is any. 135. You are in favour of more rapid unloading in London, and selection of consignments to be made in a shed ? —Yes. 136. Have you anything to suggest that would further improve the service—that is to say, prevent a percentage of damage either by rail or sea?—l think the abolition of that sixty days' allowance for the insurance policy would tend to localise the sources of damage. I think that is a great evil in the business. 137. Mr. McLachlan.] You stated the rates for frozen meat were the same some years ago for dead meat. Are you not aware that rate was fixed very low to enable farmers to send in their dead meat to the market ? —I cannot say. 138. That a truck of pigs went down at less than a truck of grain?— They will not bear comparison. You can only hang sixty pigs or sixty sheep in a truck. 139. What reduction in freight would satisfy the company? What would be a reasonable reduction? What reduction on Bs. 6d. would be a reasonable reduction? —I should think a reduction somewhere about half-way between that rate and the grain-rate would be something more reasonable. 140. Hon. the Chairman.] What would that be ?—About 6s. 141. Mr. McLachlan.l How much would that be per sheep ? —lfd. per sheep. 142. You think that would not entail some extra tax ?—Of course it would. I think it is very unfair that one industry should be taxed to keep up the revenue of the country. The railway should not be made a means of taxation, as it is in the case of frozen meat. 143. Your trucks could be only used for meat ?—And butter.

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144. There is no return cargo ?—No ; no more is there in the sheep-trucks. 145. Would properly-frozen sheep flatten out with the ordinary weight that could be piled upon them in the ship's hold?— Not unless there was a thaw. You can break a properly-frozen sheep if you only let it fall hard enough. 146. Do you consider that a coat of whitewash on the trucks would obviate any losses at all ? — It would certainly improve the purpose for which they are used ; it would obviate chances of damage. 147. If there has been no damage, why do you want to obviate it ?—There has been no damage ; but there has frequently been a slight softening on the top tiers and those round the sides, but that is never sufficient to cause what you call damage. 148. Do you know if the ships are willing to take the meat earlier in the morning than they get it now ?—They are never willing to begin much before eight, from the fact that if they begin at seven they have to stop at ten, and cannot begin again till nearly twelve. 149. You said something about sailing-ships carrying sheep frozen in two days. Do you only allow two days ?—ln freezing on these ships we hang them for twenty-four hours, lay them on the floor twenty-four hours, and then stow them away. 150. And do these ships turn out better sheep than the steamers do now ?—Oh, yes. We only had one case of damage in all the cases we have had. 151. Mr. Lawry.] Are you aware of any improvement that is made in the insulation of rail-way-trucks? —I do not think the present system could be improved upon. It might be possible to improve the style of door, owing to the fact that to have the doors air-tight they require careful screwing up, and you cannot always depend on workmen doing these things properly, however carefully supervised. 152. Have you ever seen the test of charcoal and pumice as insulators ?—We have made the test ourselves, and the insulating properties are about equal. 153. As to cost ?—About equal. 154. You spoke of the Southbrook Crossing. You complained that there was no means of communication ? —lt is the complaint of the residents of the district that there is no means of knowing what is wrong in the event of delay, because there is no telephone or telegraph. 155. I take it that your desire might be summed up in a reduction of railway freights ?—And better facilities for getting our meat to Lyttelton. 156. Hon. the Chairman.] Have you, during the last twelve months, ever asked the Eailway Department for a special train which was refused?— Yes. 157. More than once? —Yes; I forget the number of times. It has not been within the last few months; but an arrangement was made that each company could only have a special on alternate mornings, and we were refused a second special on one occasion for one day, if I remember rightly. 158. How can this statement be reconciled with your statement of delay at the ship's side, and the damage done only in the detention of the railway-trucks?—l do not say the damage was done only in the detention of the railway-trucks. I said the only rejection I had from the ships this year had been some meat that had been detained in the railway-trucks. 159. How is it that sheep are carried from Timaru to Lyttelton and from Oamaru to Port Chalmers in good order, taking from eight to fourteen hours, and yet there is difficulty in the one and a half to two hours from your works to Lyttelton ? —There is no great difficulty in the two hours from our works to Lyttelton; but you must remember the distance from Timaru is nearly always done at night, and ours stand an hour in a very hot railway-station. 160. You said just now, in answer to Mr. McLachlan, that the reduction you proposed would mean a reduction of half a crown a ton in freights, and that would mean 2d. a sheep. Is not that wrong ? Would it not work out to Jd. ? —About Jd. 161. I was asking what the reduction per sheep might be? —I misunderstood the question; it would be about -|d. Half a crown would be fd. 162. What do you consider the relative values of pumice, charcoal, and silicate cotton as insulators ?—Pumice and charcoal are about equal; we have made very exhaustive tests. And as to silicated cotton, it is generally admitted scientifically that lin. of silicate cotton is equal to 12in. of charcoal. 163. In relation to the inquiry I made just now about transit from Timaru and other places as compared with from your works to Lyttelton, are you aware that meat leaves Timaru early, and has five hours under the sun ? —Yes; but it is in a train passing rapidly through the air, and therefore it is consequently at a lower temperature than these trucks standing in the station. 164. Hon. the Chairman (asking question put in by Mr. Russell).] Would you be surprised to learn that the Islington and Belfast meat was defectively frozen as compared with that from Timaru or Mr. Nelson's ? Mr. Wilson: Ido not think Mr. Nelson gave any such evidence. Mr. Buchanan: The question I put to the witness was not based on anything Mr. Nelson said, or on anything he gave. The question was based on evidence given before the Committee. 165. Hon. the Chairman.] Instead of this question I would ask, If evidence had been given that one week in the freezing-chamber was necessary before shipment, would you agree that that was necessary ? —No. The time necessary would all depend on the temperature at which you would keep it for a week. They would never be frozen in a week if you never brought the temperature down below 25 deg. I have frozen sheep in an hour. I have had them alive at 11 o'clock in the day and frozen hard before 12. 166. You have no reason to alter your evidence on that subject ?—No. 167. Are you aware that the meat leaves Timaru at 4 a.m., reaches Christchurch at 11, and is six hours before the last truck is discharged ?—Of course, I know that the meat leaves very often at 11 o'clock at night. I have no connection with the Timaru works.

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168. If that were so, does it not get rid of some difficulties as to the time necessary to cause damage between Belfast and Lyttelton ?—1 do not think five or six hours' travelling is so bad as one hour standing still. 169. Mr. Buchanan.] You gave some evidence as regards bone-stink, and that it took place at a particular time of the year and from particular causes. Are you aware of the American practice with regard to meat in the very hot weather that they have there sometimes ? Are you aware they pass in the meat smoking hot from the butcher straight into the delivering-room ?—I believe they do in some cases. 170. Supposing the time of hanging outside in the freezing-room were short, and cold applied quickly, would it be possible to have bone-stink?—l do not think, as long as the meat hung out long enough, the time that elapses between killing and freezing would have anything to do with bone-taint. 171. Have you had bone-taint in such cases?— No. 172. The object of my question was this : Do you think it possible to have bone-taint if the sheep were passed in quickly into the freezing-room, no matter what the time of the year ?—I think it would be quite possible to have it under those circumstances, just as any other. 172 a. In other words, you think it quite possible to have bone-taint take place even under the American practice ?—Yes. I think the principal cause of bone-taint, myself, is some condition of the blood of the animal; and then it is kept in a temperature that is relatively too high, and that causes the bone-taint. Some sheep will thaw at a lower temperature than others, owing perhaps to the fevered state of the blood. 173. Mr. Flatman.] What is the longest time that you know meat to have been in transit between your works and Lyttelton ?■—That I could not remember. 174. If any one told you that it had been sixteen hours on the road, would you think that right ? —I am sure that would be wrong. 175. Six hours, would that be right—that is, in transit ? —There has never been anything like that. 176. You said your meat would have to stand proportionately before being shipped with the Timaru meat. But one train with thirty trucks, and another, say, with an average of twelve would necessarily have to be longer in discharging and loading ? —Of course, it would all depend on the rate it was taken in how long it would stand. 177. We naturally conclude that twelve trucks would be unloaded in less time than thirty ? — The only thing is that with a long train they generally work two hatches to get it done quickly.

Fbiday, 21st August, 1896. —(Hon. Mr. Obmond, Chairman.) Mr. W. Peck's evidence continued. Mr. W. Peck : I submitted the other day an offer to the Government to purchase the patent rights for my thawing process. Since then I thought they would have a better means of judging if the purchase were delayed until the meat going Home in the "Tekoa" had been treated by the process. They could then judge of the effect upon the prices at Home, and the Agent-General could have access to the sale returns. With this view I submitted an offer in writing yesterday to the effect that, if the Government will pay £300 towards my expenses in connection with my visit to England, I will give them the right of refusal for my patent for the rest of the year. With regard to the cost, it will be something under 3d. per sheep, and will run from about 10d. to Is. per quarter for beef—that is, about per pound. We hope to get on beef at least 1-J-d. per pound increase in price. 1. Hon. the Chairman.] What about mutton?—lt improves the appearance of mutton; there is no weeping on it. But that that came down the other day was handicapped by being over twenty-four hours in the luggage-van. There was this fact: it was the first thing put into the truck, and more luggage was piled upon it all the way along. And even then the members of the Stock Committee agreed that it was pretty well of the same appearance as the other. They have had an opportunity of testing it at Bellamy's, and I am told the flavour was all right, and the meat as good as any other meat. So that, if the Committee would think well of this, and put in an interim report, so that the Government can decide whether they will accept this offer in time for me to catch the " Ruapehu," I shall be much obliged. It will cost me considerably more than that, and if I had not thorough faith in it, and believed it to be sound, I would not carry it on myself. I am only offering the Government what will be a share of my expenses, because I shall have to expend over £300 in patent rights alone. 2. Mr. Buchanan.] Does that written offer mean that the Government must accept or reject the proposal for the purchase before you go Home ?—Not before I go Home, but that they shall have that right until the end of the year. 3. Hon. the Chairman.] Did they undertake to find £300, part of the expenses ? : —Yes, in return for my refusing any offer I may receive at Home before the end of the year. Mr. B. C. Eobbins, Secretary to the Hawera Dairy Factory, examined. —(Mr. Lawby, Chairman.) I think the first thing we have to take into consideration would be the matter of cool-storage and freezing of butter. In the past season the Government did that here in Wellington. Ido not know whether it is their intention to do so in the coming season or not. But, if not, that will be one of the very first things that the industry will require. It has been stated that it is the intention of the Government to freeze only first-class butter in the future, so as to give, as it were, a bonus to those who manufacture first-class. My own opinion is that that would be an injury to the industry. The

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whole thing would rest as a mere matter of opinion with one man —the grader —and it has been demonstrated in the past that he is not perfect in his grading. I know many instances where butter has come down from Taranaki which has been graded second-class, and has fetched a better price than the first. Thus you see there might be an injury, for while this butter would not be considered first-class, exporters would either have to send it Home unfrozen, or bear the expense of freezing. To send butter Home unfrozen would be very detrimental to the trade. I think that it is fully demonstrated now that butter to reach Home must be taken in a frozen condition. The great want, so far as our experience has led us in this matter in reference to placing our product better on the London market, is more attention at the other end. It has been suggested, and I think rightly, that it would very materially help this industry if proper cool-storage were provided at the other end in London, and that there should be somebody placed there to see if they can find out a better means for the distribution of the product in England. Our opinion is that it should be somebody who has been interested in, and gained considerable experience at, this end of the market. It is not so much to report upon the condition of arrival of butter and cheese, as to see how it is distributed, and see if better results cannot be got by doing away with many of the middlemen's commissions. The matter of transit has been a great question with us. Up to the latter part of last season, the whole of the butter and cheese —or the butter, at any rate—had to come overland by rail. The consequence was that often, for want of proper trucks and means of transport, the butter arrived in bad condition. Now that the freezing-works have been started at Waitara—and in this coming season there will also be one at New Plymouth — that to some extent is got over; yet there will be many factories from Hawera down to Wellington that will still want to send their produce by rail. The quantity to be sent by rail'at the present time to get the reduced rate is 4 tons. Now, there are very few factories that, without allowing a considerable length of time to elapse for them to accumulate that quantity, can avail themselves of this rate. What is required is that they should take the smaller quantities, or, failing that, there should be some depots at certain spots where they could collect it, and then have it all sent on from that particular place. Have a depot, say, at Patea or Hawera, and send it on by rail when a sufficient quantity has accumulated at this depot; or else have a reduction in the rate, and let a smaller quantity come at the reduced rate. I think the arrangements at the port of export here at Wellington are very good, and I do not think we can improve upon them at the present time. The Dairy Association, in conjunction with the Agricultural Department, have got things in pretty good working order as far as the port of export is concerned. The great trouble at the present time is just simply the matter of transit from the factories to the port of export, and the matter of distribution at Home. Of course there is the reduction-of-freight question from the colony to the Home Country. I have not the exact figures with me, but on comparison you will find that butter, or dairy produce generally, taking it on a comparison of space, has to pay very nearly double the same rate as frozen meat. Of course, there is a great diversity of opinion in reference to this question of grading for export. My own opinion is that the grading has done a vast amount of good. I believe there is an agitation at the present time to have the grading done away with. For my own part, I think it would be detrimental to the industry. It does not affect it so far as the Home market is concerned, but it does in the colony. If a parcel was sent down here and reported upon by the grader as not being of first quality, the manufacturer at the factory has his attention called to it at once, and there is generally an improvement. I know that has been the result during the past year, and has made a vast difference to the manufacture in the Taranaki District. Ido not think the time has come to do away with the grading yet. 4. Mr. Wilson.] I am glad to hear you say the grading has done good, because it is within my own knowledge that it has done a good deal of good in the district from which I come. You made some remark about grading in Wellington and New Plymouth ?—-What I said was that sometimes the grader was not infallible, that often butter that was graded here in New Zealand second-class brought a higher price in London than that that had been graded first. I was simply stating that as an argument in favour of the Government continuing the freezing of all classes of butter. 5. Do they not do so now?—No ; it has been notified to us at the last meeting of the Dairy Association, held in Hawera some weeks back, that it was the intention of the Government simply to freeze the first-class butter. 6. That was not so. It was only a question whether it would meet the views of the public ; it is not official. —-That was debated at the meeting. 7. Are you in favour of the shipping of butter locally, or would you prefer it to go to Wellington ? What is your experience ?—My experience is in favour of the train system, providing there are proper train arrangements with cool cars with ice, and you could get all the factories to combine to send their produce by a special train. That would be better, but Ido not think it will come to pass. The factories in Taranaki think they can save money by sending it from the local ports. 8. New Plymouth and Waitara ?—Yes. 9. And the shipping has been satisfactory there ? —lt has been this season, with this exception —of course, it would be extremely foolish to send butter by other than the mail-boats. 10. What boats do you mean by that?—l mean the ocean mail-boats. They call at the roadstead. 11. That has been the practice last season? —Once a month. 12. Has that been sufficient to meet your requirements ?—No, it has not. It must be a fortnightly service. 13. You say if you got proper accommodation from Wellington to Taranaki you would favour the railway ?—I would. 14. What is the freight from Hawera, taking it as an average ?—lt is the same right through—■ £2 3s. a ton.

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15. Would there be much difference if there was not a double rail? —Yes; we would get it for £1 15s. or £1 16s. 16. Then you have dairy trains during certain months of the year ?—Yes. 17. What months are these?— January and February, I think. 18. Were they well patronised?—At first they were. 19. For what reason were they given up ?—Shipments at Waitara have taken their place. 20. That was at less cost ? —Yes. 21. And was the service of these trains satisfactory?— Yes; we were quite satisfied ourselves. 22. You have no objection to make to the train-service as supplied to you previously during this last season? —That special train, you mean? No, that was a very good service. But if you take the Taranaki factories, if they could have a fortnightly service by the direct mail-boats it would make a difference of some 12s. or 15s. a ton—that is, just round about Waitara and New Plymouth. 23. A saving to the factories of 15s. per ton ?—Yes. 24. And then they get it on board a ship ?—Yes. 25. And, besides that, they have to take the risk of these ships calling regularly ?—ln case of an accident or stress of weather, they have to send their butter overland or else by steamer round the coast to New Plymouth, and take the risk. 26. And when it arrives in Wellington, I suppose they send it by train? Is there proper accommodation here for it ?—There was last season. Government had cool stores here. 27. And have they none at Waitara ?—Yes, they have the Waitara Freezing-works. 28. Did the Government make an arrangement for that freezing-works to be a cool-store ?— They proclaimed it such. 29. So that the keeping of the butter at Waitara would not be a serious point ?—No; they can store a large quantity there, quite enough for all requirements. Then they have the New Plymouth stores, which will be open this season. 30. I gather from your statements that you think the freight was rather high in Wellington ?— That is in regard to the small quantities —this £2 2s. rate for 4-ton lots. Very few factories can turn out 4 tons. There is a great anxiety to have the butter shipped regularly, and as quickly as possible, and very few factories can do that. There are a number of factories from Hawera down, from which it would be cheaper to ship to Wellington if they could get the butter down for the sum of £2, but they have to pay more because they have got a smaller quantity than 4 tons. 31. And even if smaller quantities were turned out, supposing two or three factories joined together, would not they get the reduction ?—They are not supposed to do that, and it is a very difficult matter for them to do so. 32. Was there not a regulation by the Railway Department that the farmers could join together and get the benefit of the lower rates ? —Not that I am aware of. 33. You say you are not aware that permission has been given to make up a 4-ton lot at different stations ? —No. 34. Because I believe that is a recent regulation that might induce the factories to do it ?—I do not think it would induce them to. I do not see where they could do it without a lot of inconvenience, which Ido not think could be overcome. If they were a lot of farmers and had small quantities of butter, it would be different; but the factories are a considerable distance apart, and they would have to send the butter in by rail to a certain point, or have it carted, or something of that description. Ido not see how it could be managed. 35. But, then, it need not be the same station, you understand; it might be different stations ?— But it would all have to go into the same truck. That truck would have to stand in every place. 36. There is a man goes down with the special train ? —Oh, yes, with the special train; but, under the present circumstances, I cannot think you are going to get sufficient quantities to run a special train. 37. Do you think it might be useful in ordinary trains?—l do not think it would. 38. If the different factories combined, do not you think they would be able to gain the benefit of some reduction in freight ?—We have an association—the National Dairy Association. 39. Mr. Buchanan.] You said the difference in cost per ton between shipping at Taranaki and Wellington, on the one hand, and railage to Wellington on the other, from factories close to Taranaki or Waitara, is 15s. per ton? —From 12s. to 15s. It depends, of course, how near the port these factories are. A great many factories are very handy to Waitara. 40. The difference per pound at which that works out is from to j\d. Taking the risk of exposure to the sun and difficulty of securing a sufficiently low temperature in transport from shore to steamer, would it not be better to ship to Wellington for that small difference ?—I should have preferred it, but they look at the actual fact of the 12s. or 15s. per ton saved; and you must know that they have also special facilities for shipping. They have insulated punts ; the freezing-chamber is right alongside the river; the butter is placed in, and then in a very short time (something like an hour, at the outside) the butter will be on board the ship. 41. At Waitara?—Yes; Ido not know what the facilities will be at New Plymouth. They have not started there yet. 42. No ; but I presume they will be much of the same character as at Waitara ?—I expect so. 43. We have had in evidence, with regard to the shipment of meat from the Waitara works, that they find it necessary to reduce the temperature of the meat to 5° below zero, to make sure that the meat when put on board is kept good under the vicissitudes of shipping it. Would not the same thing apply to butter ? Would it not be necessary to lower the temperature proportionately to insure its safety?—l hardly think so, from the difference between the nature of butter and meat. Butter is in a wooden case, and is more protected than if it is just simply covered by a cloth. 44. Supposing it was found to be necessary to reduce it to that proportionately low temperature, would it, in your opinion, be likely to injure the texture of the butter ? —Yes.

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45. If the Eailway Department saw its way to a substantial reduction of the freight upon butter—that is, to the extent of, say, 15s. per ton —do you think that, with the difference of cost which at present exists between shipment at Waitara and railage to Wellington, the whole of the butter would come to Wellington ?—I am afraid not, at present. There is too much local agitation between New Plymouth and Waitara to allow it. It would have a short time ago, and it may later on if it has had a season's trial at these ports, but I do not think so at present. 46. What is the scale of freezing charges for butter at Waitara at one end and Wellington at the other?— They are just the same. At Waitara they guarantee that their charges shall not be any more than at Wellington, whatever the charges at Wellington. 47. I understood you to say that it was not so much the condition of the butter on arrival in London as the middlemen's commissions ?—No. What I said was, that I consider we do not want them to report upon the condition in which the butter is landed, so much as we want someone to ferret out the matter of better markets in England and better distribution of the produce when it gets to London. 48. Would not the competition as between the commission agents in London reduce the charges to the lowest paying-limit ?—No; that has not been our experience. All the charges are about the same. 49. Would you recommend the Committee to secure that the Government should take this matter in hand and deal with the middlemen's commissions ?—Yes ; have a representative in London representing the interests of the dairying people. At the present time a Mr. Gray is there, but we have not seen any good, as dairymen, that he has accomplished yet. His has simply been a matter of investigating the condition in which the butter has arrived, and also the temperature that has been maintained during the time it has been in transit, and all that sort of thing. He is a man who has been connected with the commission people in London, and we not think he is likely to undertake this work in the direction we would like—the matter of better distribution. 49a. And would you favour the Government representative taking up the questions of commissions and distribution as apart from the condition and temperature of the butter?— Yes. 50. And if that were done would not this lead to a similar demand on the part of wool, wheat, grassrseed, meat, and all other produce from New Zealand ?—Well, it would be a pretty big task for one man to do the whole of that. 51. No, but the Government?—l do not know that they come in the same direction as dairy produce, which is a perishable article, and has to be treated in a different way than wool. You do not find it sold by auction; we attempted it once, and it was a wretched failure. Wool, wheat, grain, and even meat are treated altogether differently at Home than dairy produce; and Ido not think it would be so necessary in their case as with the dairy produce. 52. I think I understood you to say that butter suffered in condition in trucking it to Wellington ?—lt has. 53. In what way ?—By heat. That was before they had the properly-constructed vans that they gave us a trial with last season, and they act very well. 54. There is no complaint about them?—No; they were spoken of by everybody with pleasure. 55. What would you recommend as the minimum ? Would you have the 4-ton minimum reduced ?—Yes. 56. To what weight ?—At any rate to 1 ton. 57. You stated that dairy produce was charged a freight about double that of meat, taking the space occupied on board ship ? —Yes. 58. Have you worked that out ?—We have worked it out, and I could give you the figures. 59. That was the conclusion at which you arrived ?—Yes. 60. And you think, therefore, the ships are charging a freight altogether out of proportion to what they ought to ? —Yes. 61. Do you consider the charges for freezing and grading in Wellington reasonable?— The Government pay them all. 62. Yes, lam aware of that. But you know what the charges are ?—Oh, yes; I think they were very reasonable. 63. Had the producers up the west coast any complaint to make as to the general handling and management of butter in transit through Wellington ?—No. I mentioned that a little while ago. I think the arrangements here, at the port of export in Wellington, were exceedingly good. 64. Mr. Flatman.] You spoke of the reduction of freights from the colony to the Old Country. Did you mean railway charges as well as shipping charges ?—Only shipping charges. 65. What do the ships' charge?—fd. a pound for butter, and fd. for cheese. 66. Was it your experience that there was much butter or cheese spoiled in transit from your dairy to London ?—We often had reports that the butter apparently had been heated, but I took that to be in transit here in the colony, not on board ship. 67. That would be the time when they had no proper trucks on the line ? —Yes ; since these extra and special trains have been available there has been no cause for complaint in this direction. 68. Mr. McLachlan.] Could you expect the Eailway Department to provide cool-storage at these country stations for the collection of butter without increasing the rates of carriage ?—Not at all the country stations. Take Patea, for instance: they have a freezing-works there. Ido not see why there should not be an accumulation there from the other factories. Take the Hawera factory, and Waverley: the cost would not be very great. 69. Have the people at Patea any more right to these facilities than other parts of the country? —No, I do not think so. 70. Do you not think if they were established it would cause a universal demand for coolstorage everywhere?—No ; I do not think so. 6—l. 9.

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71. Do you say that the grading has done good in so far as the grader, having found fault with some butter, and the attention of the factory-manager being called to it, a better class of butter has been turned out ?—lnstead of sacking the man they gave him another chance. The factorymanager was not doing his best. 72. Is that a general application or only an individual ease ? —ln a number of cases. 73. Are you aware that the principal buying companies that bought the Canterbury butter last year did not take the grading as being of any value at all, and that they employed a man for overgrading? —I did not know. 74. "Was such a thing done in the North Island? —No. 75. Do those who purchase from the factories here take the grader's brand ?—They have not been in the habit of doing so. Ido not know of any factory that sold in the colony. They simply send Home on consignment. One firm operated pretty well the whole of the Taranaki factories. They took the butter and sold it when it got Home, independent of the grader's classification altogether. Ido not consider it made one iota of difference at Home as far as the grading was concerned. It was only here in the colony. 76. Then, this is simply a classification for the colonial markets?—No, the intercolonial. 77. Intercolonial ? —Yes; in the intercolonial market it has made a difference in the matter of contracts. They make their contracts on the fact of its passing the grader. 78. Then, as far as I understand it, your request would be that all charges from the factory to the consumer in London should be reduced, and that facilities should be given both by rail and ship. That amounts to your wants ? —Yes. 79. Do you not think the competition of the shipping companies would tend to that end ?— There are only two companies that carry produce, and they seem to have a mutual understanding. 80. I thought they were rivals ?—They seem to have the same rate of charges, and when we approach them they seem to be in connection with each other. 81. Mr. Duncan.] Would you be surprised to hear that the Railway Department carried butter from Tarauaki to Wellington last season at considerable loss, after providing special trucks and supervision in order to assist the dairy-factories ? —I quite understand that; but they were so long in providing these things that this shipping business started at Waitara. Had it started in the beginning of the season, or had there been any other prospects, there would have been a different result, I think. 82. When did it start ?—Not till January or February. 83. Is it not equally desirable that cool-storage should be provided at the factory as well as in London ?—No, I do not think so. 84. How long is the butter kept at the factory before sending it by rail?—lf it is any-sized factory they generally send it away twice a week. 85. Then, it would not be more than two days at the factory at any time?— No. 86. Is there any cool-storage provided at the factories ?—Some of them have refrigerating machinery, and a small chamber where they store their butter. Very few of them, though. 87. Could you enumerate one of them ? —There is one at Tokorangi and one at Waverley, and the Cheltenham Factory at Cheltenham, and Mr. Oldham's factory at Patea. (To Mr. Wilson) : In reference to your latter question, I saw a return in London that, with the exception of once or twice, the butter from the factories that used refrigerating machinery did not reach any better price than that supplied from those without. In fact, in some cases, Is. or 2s. per cwt. less. 88. Mr. Duncan.] Would you attribute that to the manufacture, or to the want of manufacture?—No ; I think it was more in the matter of transit. The one that brought from Is. to 2s. less was at a greater distance from the port of shipment, and iv consequence it was more likely to have got damaged in transit. 89. According to your statement, do you suppose that butter that has been in the cool chambers previous fco being sent by rail is more liable to damage than that which has not ?—1 think if butter has been partly frozen and then is allowed to start a thaw, that you can never get that butter back again to the same texture, even by freezing. 90. Do you suppose it would keep better?— No. I find in the Taranaki District that, except on very few occasions, it will keep better without being frozen, and, if it has a far transit from the factory to the port of export or the freezing-chambers at the port of export, that it will keep in better condition. That is, provided, of course, that it has not been allowed to remain long in the factory. It should have facilities of being shipped quickly. 91. Mr. Wilson.] How long do you say?—lt ought to be shipped every two or three days from the factory; and they do so if there is any facility for it at all. 92. Mr. Duncan.] What length of time does the train take going from Waitara, or New Plymouth, to Wellington ? What time does it occupy on the road ?—Of course it would depend on the stoppages. 93. Mr. Wilson.] Take the dairy-train ? —About fifteen hours. 94. In your reply to Mr. McLachlan, you said something about the way of working that trade up on the coast. Would it not suit you to have a centre at Hawera, collect the whole of the butter there from the different factories into a cool store and, whenever you had enough, send it away by train ?—That would have been the very best plan that could have been devised, provided they had not these shipping arrangements at Waitara and New Plymouth. The trouble would be to get the people to send right through by rail. That is where the trouble came in, and where the loss took place last season. 95. You would not expect expenditure to be made at the different country stations. Would not the organization of a single cool-store at Hawera suit the whole district ?—Yes; it would suit the district admirably. 96. So that you would not require to put cool-stores in different places, but simply the one,. How much would it cost ?—I do not know.

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97. It is a fact, however, I suppose, that the dairies in your district are not sufficiently cool. Only a few, you say, have got freezing machinery ? Still, they would be all the better for it ?— Provided they were butter-factories all the year round. But we have found that the better way is to have a combined plant and turn them into butter- and cheese-factories, —making butter up to a certain period of the year, and then making cheese during the hot months of the year. In that way we get over the difficulty of the hot weather ; but if they only make butter, then I think they cannot get over the difficulty without putting refrigerating plant in. 98. Are they not making ice in New Plymouth to distribute to the different butter-factories ? —That may be with one company. The Grown Company have a number of factories and creameries, and, of course, they must make all butter, and. must send their cream to a considerable distance, and for that purpose they may manufacture ice. But the system coming into vogue, and which eventually almost every factory I think will adopt, will be a combined plant to make both butter and cheese. 99. Then, if this storage were provided, and they made a depot, and supposing the public were prepared to use it, the ordinary train-service would be quite sufficient? You could fetch it down from Hawera in the mcrning, and it would arrive here at night? —Yes. 100. So that there would be no necessity for going to the extra expense of an extra trainservice ? —No. 101. Mr. Buchanan.] Can you tell the Committee what, in your opinion, is the percentage of loss of cream in the summer time in dairy-factories where there is no cooling apparatus available ? —Do you mean refrigerating means? No; I have never seen it worked out, but I should think it very small indeed, because they have other cooling apparatus in factories where there is no refrigerating plant. 102. Would you be surprised to hear that at the dairy-factory in the Wairarapa the owner of the factory estimated that he recovered in the first year the whole of the cost of his refrigerating machinery, owing to the much higher percentage of cream he was able to get from the milk ?—Yes, that might be applicable to the Wairarapa District; but in our case, where we have plenty of good cold water and cooling apparatus, the percentage would be very small. 103. Would you be surprised to hear that this took place at a factory where the water was got from a well, and where the temperature would be most likely just about the same as at Hawera?— Yes. Ido not think it would work out that way—not from my experience, at any rate. 104. Do you not think, then, that the butter-factories on the west coast will gradually get refrigerating apparatus as the cost of such apparatus becomes reduced ?—lf they are going to continue butter-making only, I think so, and I would recommend it; but I would, in preference, recommend that they take that extra money and put it into cheese plant, and during the warm weather make cheese, and that cheese-factories should also put in a butter plant. 105. In the event of their adopting refrigerating apparatus generally, would not they get over the difficulty as to rail-carriage—say, the 4-ton minirnun ?—No ; because they must ship every fortnight, and they must bring their butter down to the port of export a certain number of days before exporting, and a great many of the factories would not make that quantity in the time. 106. You could have them club together ? —Oh, yes, they might; but Ido not think they would.. Mr. Thomas Thompson, General Manager of the Southland Frozen Meat and Produce Export Company, (Limited), Invercargill, examined. Mr. Thomas • Thompson : Our principal works are established at Mataura, a distance of about forty-nine miles from the Bluff, which is the nearest port of shipment to which frozen meat can be railed on the Government railways. They are in the centre of a large and important grazing district, and supply the freezing facilities for a large farming population within a fifty-mile radius. We complain that the carriage of frozen meat and dead meat to and from these works is so excessive that we are really not in a position to give the farmers anything like the advantages that the site at Mataura should have given them, nor are we in a position to compete with other companies either inside or outside the colony. The question of railway rates so underlies the whole matter that we have no means of getting out of it. The following table shows the difference of the charges on frozen meat from Mataura to Bluff, as compared with chai'ges elsewhere. [Table put in, Appendix U.] Of course, in all these cases the rates charged us are very much in excess of all others. Taking the charges of New South Wales and Victoria, the difference is something remarkable. Between Deniliquin and Bchuca they carry the meat for forty-five miles at 4s. 4-J-d. per ton, which at the ratio for the distance of forty-nine miles that we have to pay for would only amount to about 1-J-d. for a 601b. carcase. [Table of Australian charges put in, Appendix U.] You see we are charged for railage from four to five times as much as is paid in Australia, and very much more than any other freezing-works in the colony. Considering the magnitude of the industry, we think that something ought to be done. It is a very difficult matter to say what should be done. For instance, at the present time our freezing charges are only Jd. per lb., and, out of that Jd., •J-d. is abstracted in railway carriage. It takes -Jd. per lb. at the present time to rail a carcase from Mataura to Bluff at present rates. Hon. Mr. Cadman: This is purely a railway carriage matter, and, I think, should go to the Railway Committee. 107. Hon. the Chairman (to witness).] But have you anything to place before the Committee in connection with the freezing of meat ? Mr. Fraser: I was under the impression that the order of reference, Standing Order No. 211, was to be suspended. Surely that is broad enough to take in the question of freight upon frozenmeat, considering that that same question has been put before this Committee by former witnesses. But I do not wish to interfere with the Railway Committee at all.

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Mr. Wilson : The petition deals very pertinently with the railway rates. Hon. the Chairman: I would like to point out to the Minister that this gentleman has been summoned to give evidence before the Committee, and therefore I must rule that he is perfectly in order to go on. Hon. Mr. Oadman : I understand that this petition has not gone to the Eailway Department. Hon. the Chairman : We do not recognise that as an official document at all. Mr. Buchanan : From my own knowledge, after reading the correspondence between the freezing companies and the Government, all the information set out in the petition is already in the possession of the Government. Hon. the Chairman : I think I must rule Mr. Thompson can go on with his statement. As pointed out by Mr. Wilson, the whole question of railway freights, transit, and everything else is covered by the petition. Mr. Thompson (continuing): The next question we wish to bring before the Committee is the charges for live and dead sheep. The charge for live sheep has been considerably reduced, as much as 33 per cent, between Mataura and the Bluff. Taking the large sheep-truck from Mataura to the Bluff, the charge for it is £2 195., which gives a result of something like s'9d. per sheep. A meat-van between Mataura and the Bluff containing 9 tons, at £1 2s. 6d., gives a result of £10 2s. 6d., as against £2 19s. The sheep-truck is a special truck in every sense of the word. In Southland the meat-vans are used for oats and other things during the off-season. In connection with the same thing, 4 tons of grain go down from Mataura to the Bluff for £1 145., a 4-ton truck of coal for £1 Is., firewood £1 45., and the smaller vans of meat are £4 10s., very nearly double the charge for a live-sheep truck. There has never been any reduction in the dead-meat rate. This live-sheep rate acts very injuriously to our company in more ways than one. For instance, in that truck of live sheep the Government carry the wool, the skin, and the offal; but, in addition to our £1 2s. 6d., we have to pay for our offal, our wool, and the tallow as well. This live-sheep rate really injures us in another way also. For instance, a freezing-works at the port can use the live-sheep rate, whereas inland freezing-works cannot use it. They must send their meat dead. This gives a great help to any of the companies near the port. For instance, Messrs. Nelson Brothers have a freezing-works at Ocean Beach, and this live-sheep reduced rate gives them an advantage of something over £1,200 per annum over the Southland Meat Company. We do not use any special trains for the Southland meat. The ordinary trains carry the whole of our mutton. The department are not put to any expense in any shape or form for extra haulage on any of it. The result works out something like this : We pay 7-J-d. for a dead carcase, and then we have got to add on something like another -Jd., or very nearly, which makes Bd.; and then the tallow costs 0-47 d. This gives a result of 8-J-d., as against 5-9 d. for the live sheep. Of course, our company do not object in the least, and have no feeling in the matter of the live-stock rate being reduced; but at the same time they think it anything but justice that no reduction is being made on the dead meat and frozen meat. Taking an average for the half-year ending June last, we paid something like £2,200 for railage, the sheep, including lambs, averaging 431b., which, at -Jd. per pound, which is the rate we are charged, gives something like 5 p 5d., and, with the addition of the offal and the tallow, 6'5d., which is considerably in excess of the live-sheep rate, although that carcase may be termed a lamb, because it is only 431b. Therefore we really have to pay more for our lambs than the other companies have to pay for their sheep, or about equally so. The railage paid by the company has gradually gone up from the year 1889, the date of the inception of the company. [See table of figures put in, Appendix V.] We also forward dead meat from Wallacetown to the Bluff. It is a short distance, but the result there also shows that live sheep have a considerable preference over the dead, almost equal to 1-Jd. per head. 108. Hon. Mr. Cadman.] What is your estimate for the dead.sheep?— Taking the carcase at 601b. as the basis, 7-Jd.; but, of course, the average for the half-year was 431b., including lambs, which gives a. result of about 6-Jd. Average weight for sheep alone is 571b. Mr. Thompson (continuing) : There are also mentioned in the Government tariff special concessions at different points of the railway for produce in the shape of wool, tallow, and other products which we have never had the benefit of in any shape or form. And, as another instance of how some industries are fostered, I may mention that for rabbits the carriage is half-rate. It seems a strange thing that perhaps we have got fifteen vans of sheep and perhaps five vans of rabbits going down from Mataura. The five vans of rabbits are carried at half-rates and the sheep at full rates. 109. Mr. Fraser.] Frozen rabbits ?—Yes. 110. The same kind of truck ? —Yes. It would require something like a reduction of 33 per cent, to put a dead sheep on an equal basis with the live sheep between Mataura and the Bluff. Mr. Thompson (continuing) : As far as the insulation of the rail way-vans is concerned, we have had very little difficulty with them. I do not remember any case where we have had to complain of the vans, except once at the Bluff. It was during the present half-year. It was the " Aorangi " that was being loaded. We have to load up first of all with the ordinary covered trucks, and, so long as they come right down and up to the ship straight away, there is no fault to be found. In this particular case two of these vans by some means or other were shunted on to the wharf about four hours after they left the works. The consequence was that about fifty carcases were rejected. I do not know of any other case in my time where we have had any trouble with the vans, and, as far as Southland is concerned, we have railed both rabbits and mutton from Bluff to Port Chalmers without the least difficulty with the vans. As far as the inspection of meat is concerned, our company have not the least objection to an inspection being made in their works, but we certainly think the steamers ought to be examined. It is stated by our engineers that the ships ought to be examined at this end in preference to London—that often on the voyage out, with the heavy cargoes they got, it is possible to shake up the insulation and cause

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trouble in different ways. Another thing is that all these steamers ought to be provided with a boiler simply for the refrigeration, so that the refrigerating engineer could be independent of the boilers that are driving the vessel. Another thing that they mentioned as being very necessary is that the return air-course in all the holds ought to be large enough to be quite sure of no trouble arising from their getting blocked up. If a part of a return air-course in a hold, or even in a freezing-chamber, gets blocked up, the air will not circulate in that particular part of the hold or chamber, and it must certainly result in the meat rising in temperature in that particular part of the vessel or chamber. Me. Gilbbkt Andeeson, Managing Director of the Christchurch Meat Company, examined. Mr. Anderson : The first question, I believe, is one of railages as compared with other charges and reductions. The freight in 1881-84 on frozen meat was 2d. per ton ; in 1885 the freight was reduced to lfd.; in 1886-87 it was 1-Jd. ; in 1888-90 it was ljd.; in 1891-94, Id.; in 1895, Id. in the summer and fd. in winter. The freezing charge in 1885 was Jd.; in 1889-91, fd. ; in 1891-94, fd., less 10 per cent. In 1895 there was a consolidated rate established. It leaves freezing in the summer at about Jd., and in the winter a little over The actual freezing rates at the present time are worked out in this way : The Canterbury consolidated rate at the present moment, including drafting, killing, dressing, handling, freezing, loading, railage, wharfage, freight to London, bills of lading, and providing the bags, is T 9 s d. per lb., which equals, on a 601b. sheep, 4s. 6d. The freight is 3s. 9d., at fd. per lb., leaving 9d. Of this, 3d. has to be allowed for cost of bags, leaving 6d., of which we have to pay to the railway for simply hauling the meat thirteen miles 2Jd., or very nearly 45 per cent o£ all that we get for freezing, handling, drafting, loading, and bills of lading. The freezing company is prepared to receive a sheep, draft it, kill it, dress it, put it in the cooling-, freezing-, and store-rooms, and load it into the trucks for 3Jd., yet the railway requires 2JkL for dragging these carcases of meat thirteen miles, earning £1 9s. a truck, in round numbers, doing no work but simply hauling, which I understand costs about Is. 7d. per mile per train. They do not charge a rate, they charge us a heavy tax of 2-|-d. per sheep. We do the rest of the work for 3|-d. If you will look at it in another way : The Christchurch . Meat Company paid to the railways last year something like £15,000, made up as follows: Actual figures, £14,683 16s. 9d., of which £10,229 was paid at Islington, and £4,453 was paid at Timaru. The expense to the Eailway Department for working these two stations was nil. There are neither Stationmaster, boys, nor any one. The company does all its own work, loads and unloads all its own wagons, and the ships do all the work at the port, and unload the wagons. [Eeturn handed in. jOf this amount £5,147 was actually paid for the haulage of frozen meat —£3,586 being paid from Islington, and £1,561 from Timaru. There are some fifty to fifty-five vans in the district, so that, in round numbers, the Christchurch Meat Company alone pays £100 a year for every van. Belfast will pay about half the amount, or a little more ; so that each van earns on an average £150 a year, which, I take it, is more than the cost of the vans. The actual number of trucks that we ran from Islington up to the 31st July, 1896, was 3,000 vans used, considering the vans as small vans, a large van being equal to two and a half. If you look through the railway tariff you will find there is no such thing as a frozen-meat rate, an item which, I suppose, contributes more to the railway than anything else. At any rate, I believe it has been stated before that Islington and Belfast were not only larger than any private stations, but returned a much larger sum than some of the large towns. And, as I said before, the cost to the railways is virtually nil, except actual haulage. If we come to the necessity for the reduction, I would simply point out the enormous drop in the price of frozen mutton since the inception of the business. Here is a summary taken from Weddel and Co.'s circulars showing the average values of frozen mutton in London for the past dozen years. In 1883 the average price of New Zealand mutton was 6fd. per pound ;in 1884, 5f d. ; 1885, sfd.; 1886, sd. ; 1887, 4Jd.; 1888, 4-|-d. ; 1889, 4|d. ; 1890, 4fd.; 1891, 4fd.; 1892, 4|d.; 1893, 4id.; 1894, ; 1895, 3fd.; and the first half of this year, 3|-d. [Appendix T.] Prices have fallen nearly 50 per cent. 111. Mr. Buchanan.] That price is first quality only?— Yes; the others, I believe, have fallen very much more. 112. It does not include second quality at all?— No. Mr. Anderson (continuing) : What is really wanted is to fix a rate for frozen mutton, and I cannot see why it should not be classed with ordinary agricultural produce. It is true, I believe, as the Eailway Department urge, that they have the trouble of carrying back the vans; but then I think I am right in saying there are no vans that earn so much as the frozen-meat vans do, and the rate can well stand a reduction. At any rate, all other countries—New South Wales, Queensland, and the Argentine —are assisting, some subsidising, the frozen-meat business. Ido not think any frozen-meat company wish the Government to subsidise the business here or to be out of pocket in any way ; but we think we are, within our rights when we ask that we should not be specially taxed in this particular business. It all comes out of the producers' pockets ; and I thmk it has been shown that the freezing companies have met the producers in all instances very liberally, considering the rates at which they are working. We do all the work for 3Jd., and we think it is an unreasonable charge that the railways should ask 2fd. simply for dragging sheep thirteen miles. I do not know whether I am right—of course, I have no information with regard to New Zealand railways —but, taking what information 1 can arrive at, J believe the cost of haulage is something like Is. 7d. per mile per train ; and if you take the cost of maintenance at a very high estimate, along with the cost of haulage, there is something like 4s. 5d., which would bring the total up to 55., which I think is a very high rate. You would find that the actual cost for taking a train of meat to Lyttelton would be something like £3 ss. We frequently load thirty vans, earning £43 10s. The whole average for six months is fourteen and a half vans. That means that frequently we have thirty to thirty-five vans to load up a train, and we have not been able to do so. Thirty have gone

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away, and the balance has followed by the next train. So that this traffic from Islington, and Belfast, and Timaru results in an enormous revenue to the railways over and above anything like reasonable profit. The next part of the petition deals more with the frozen-meat companies. Now, Canterbury is very unfavourably situated in regard to this traffic. At Napier, lam informed that the meat goes on board the steamers in an amazing short time. At the Hawke's Bay works, I understand that from the time they start loading the mutton until it is all on board is within an hour. The petition sets forth that frequently the trucks are delayed six hours. That is putting it very mildly. I myself have had trucks of meat reported to me which, from the time they were loaded at Islington until their contents were reported as being put on board the ship, were from twelve to thirteen hours. It is not fair to the freezing companies nor to the meat companies to ask us to freeze meat to stand such a test. Ido not say that this always was so, but it has been repeatedly; and, further than that, the Islington Company is particularly badly situated. In three days out of the week, except we have a special train, we cannot get our meat down to Lyttelton in anything like reasonable time, while Belfast, with a special, can get something like five trains a day. There is no necessity at Belfast for loading more than ten or fifteen vans. We, to overtake our traffic, have frequently to load thirty vans, In regard to Islington, it has often happened that three days out of the week only two trains were available for carrying meat. The morning train, leaving Islington at 9.10, if heavily loaded, does not arrive in time to catch the 10 o'clock train to Lyttelton. It is delayed, so that it only arrives at something like 11.30 o'clock at Lyttelton. All the wharf labour is stopped from 12 to 1 for lunch, so that the body of the meat is not started to be unloaded until 1 o'clock. The ship never loads more than from five to seven vans an hour. Taking the highest number —thirty vans — it is four and a half hours before the last of that meat is on the vessel. The Bailway Department has endeavoured to meet the case by allowing the Christchurch Meat Company to have a special train alternate with Belfast, provided the two companies can between them load the whole of the vans available—some fifty-five vans. The Christchurch Meat Company have to load the bulk of the vans by the 6 a.m. train, which necessitates a train of some thirty vans going to the port —that is, there is no means of getting the trucks up to Islington before 4.30. And, as I have said before, Belfast is better situated with being able to get five trains a day with something like ten to fifteen vans. ■ You can see that frozen meat was never intended to stand out that length of time, and the consequence is that we have really to freeze our meat harder than is good for it. Further, there is no more trying place, I believe, in the whole of New Zealand than Canterbury on a nor'-west day. The new trucks provided by the railway—-the large V trucks as we call them—are very good. The old small ones, with the hipped roofs, I think want considerable alteration, and although the trucks are constructed on what is considered about the most approved style, yet I think they should be altered to meet the very trying circumstances of Canterbury in nor'-westers. I have just received by the San Francisco mail a copy of the " Ice and Befrigeration," an American publication, in which there is an article on refrigeration in Victoria, and they show that in Victoria they are constructed of 4in, of sterilised cow-hair. [Paper put in.] Here the railwaytrucks, the best of them, are constructed with lin. of mineral wool, which is undoubtedly the very best insulator, but outside of this is about 2in. of open, free air-space. On examining these trucks the last day or two, and looking at them closely, I really think that for north-west weather it would be a great deal better if that open air-space was completely blocked, and not an air-current at all, but was filled with some cheap insulating material —cheap, I would suggest, because I think this open air-space in north-west weather is really hurtful rather than otherwise. Trucks with the hipped roofs, I think, should be altered entirely. There may be some insulation, but very little. They should be altered so as to have a considerable space of insulation in the roof. Then we come to the question of the painting of the trucks. I know this is a very vexed question, because the Lyttelton tunnel does blacken the trucks. Of course, it would never do to advocate importing Welsh coal for the purpose of burning on the Lyttelton line. I am afraid that would be heresy. I would strongly suggest that, instead of the trucks in the Christchurch Section being painted in the ordinary way, one of these cheap painters introduced by the Lancashire Bailway for painting all their bridges, where they paint simply with the hose, be used, and I would suggest that the trucks be whitewashed not less that once a week. Something must absolutely be done to keep off the rays of the sun. You cannot carry meat in trucks as black as the colour of this tablecloth. It is either that or allow the railway to burn better coal on the Lyttelton line, some coal that will not create the black smoke the present engines emit. I think that pretty well deals with the question of the petition—viz., that there is no such thing as a frozen-meat rate on the railway, but they are heavily taxed by the department; that every facility should be given for the carriage of meat, and that it should not be attached to the ordinary goods-traffic ; and that some trucks, not all of them, should be improved. Another thing is that there are not nearly enough trucks in the district to overtake the traffic. Fifty-five vans are not sufficient to carry the enormous quantity of meat that is being frozen in Canterbury. There should be, at any rate, not less than sixty vans for North Canterbury alone —twenty vans, say, between Timaru and Oamaru. I would also say, too, that it is almost necessary that some shelter-sheds should be provided at Lyttelton, so that the meat-vans could be drawn under the shed and not exposed to the heat of the sun as they frequently are from two to four hours. I may say that one line of steamers have recognised the necessity for keeping trucks cool at Lyttelton, and they always tell off some of their employes to hose down the trucks constantly. That is only a temporary expedient for getting over a considerable difficulty, however. Another matter, which I understand the Bailway Department has been good enough to promise, is that we shall be allowed to freeze down the vans before they leave the works. We are able to do that at Timaru from the construction of the works, and every van of meat is shunted back and frozen down. We own the enormous advantage of that, because if a van of meat is frozen down after being loaded it will carry down from Timaru to Lyttelton,

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113. Hon. the Chairman.] How long does it take ?—lt takes never less than five hours. Mr. Anderson (continuing) : We are not, however, in favour of carrying meat to Lyttelton ; we prefer loading our meat at Timaru. Difficulties have been thrown in the way, so a lot of meat has to be carried overland. We are able to carry it overland, because we can shunt back the truck and freeze it down. If we have similar facilities at Islington I think we shall be able to defy nor'-westers to some extent ; but at the same time I think we are justified in asking the railways to provide us with trucks that should carry the meat without question. That brings me to the vexed question of damaged meat. I have concluded that some cause of the damage is the fact that in the very hot months of the year it is impossible to carry the meat any length of time when it has to be in the trucks in nor'-west weather, so that it will arrive alongside the ship without the meatwrappers being more or less wet and the outer skin of the sheep a little damp. I have been led to this conclusion from the fact that mildew is reported very largely, lam not going to exonerate the ships. I think they are very much to blame. Some of them are old and out of repair. But, speaking for the Christchurch Meat Company, we have not altered our method of handling sheep. We do not put our meat through any quicker now than we did formerly. We have imported the very best machinery that we could get to freeze sheep harder, and yet the undoubted fact remains that sheep are turning up in bad condition. An extract from one of our London letters was to this effect : " There is such a tremendous quantity of damaged carcases about, and so comparatively few prime-quality carcases, that the highest-class buyers are being choked off all over the country. The cause of the damage in the case of the 'Buahine,' ' Tekoa,' ' Tongariro,'and ' Fifeshire,'is not discoverable by any records of logs. [Appendix N.] Bepresentations to the shipowners are of comparatively little avail, as they simply refer us to their temperature records in proof that the ship did not do the damage. We are safe in estimating that the loss in value of stocks in London caused by the damaged condition of the last four or five arrivals amounts to from £15,000 to £20,000, not one penny of which can be recovered from the underwriters. Boughly speaking, the market has been depreciated fully Jd. per pound on all the sheep and lambs in stock in London on Ist March or arriving since that date. It is no use parleying with this question ;it must be taken up and dealt with at once or we do not know where the mischief may stop." This question of damaged meat, I may say, came under our notice as far back as September, 1895, when we took this precaution : We wrote to the general manager of the New Zealand Shipping Company as under : " We exceedingly regret to say that our account sales received by the San Francisco mail show an excessive amount of damaged meat. You must be aware that it is absolutely necessary in the interests of the trade to definitely ascertain the cause of this. We shall therefore be glad to learn that you are prepared to grant us Lloyd's surveyor's certificate that the refrigerating chambers and machinery on your vessels are in good order when the meat is shipped. We should particularly like this with respect to the s.s. ' Aorangi,' as we purpose giving you a fairly large shipment by this vessel. We think you will concede that we are not asking anything unreasonable, as we think it imperative in the interests of the trade." [Appendix O.] A similar letter was sent to the general manager of the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company. You see the Christchurch Meat Company has been endeavouring to see that the ships do their work. But there is no doubt that a large quantity of the meat in the hot months of the year suffers. Although the sheep are in good condition, the skins are more or less soft. But I contend if you take and pile such sheep to from 12ft. to 20ft. deep, with wet bags between them, there is absolutely no means of that meat being refrigerated, and I am certain that they will start mould and damage. It will not account for the misshapen carcases landed nor for the meat being absolutely bad, but I think it will account to a large extent for the mould; and I can only say that that can be got over by having the trucks in good condition. This meat business should be run entirely separate from the ordinary traffic. I asked Mr. H. Anderson, marine superintendent of the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company, his opinion on it, and this was his reply : " I am favoured with yours of the 20th concerning the complaints that have recently been made regarding damaged meat landed from several vessels. I agree with you in thinking that there is room for great improvement as to the condition of the railway frozen-meat trucks, and that better conveniences should be given in the way of haulage by running meat-trains more frequently, especially during the summer months. In my opinion, the meat-traffic at this port nowadays is of such large dimensions as would warrant expenditure sufficient to keep the trucks in perfect order both as regards insulation and paint. As regards the working of the trains, it has always been my conviction that during the summer months the heavy meat-trains should be unloaded at the port here between the hours of 4 and 10 o'clock, and that any traffic during the heat of the day at that time of the year should not be carried on in trains of more than eight or ten trucks. The above arrangement would be more costly for the shipowner, in that it would involve overtime wages for the unloading from 4 to 8 o'clock in the morning, but I am quite sure the managers of this company would approve of that extra expense on the steamers for the sake of getting the sheep stowed away in their vessels in good order. Hoping arrangements will be made before the hot weather sets in that will prevent a repetition of what has happened at this port last summer," &c. [Appendix P.] As regards steamers carrying the meat, I really do not know what can be done. I must tell you simply what the Christchurch Meat Company have done. Since we ascertained the enormous loss in London we decided to send some one Home whom we could really trust to investigate the matter. This was ventured upon on the receipt of a circular from the Stock Department. Unfortunately that circular was so very vague as to convey virtually no information to us. But, first of all, I must produce these papers. Here is a specimen of our bills of lading, in which the ship agrees to take nothing but meat in sound condition. [Copy put in.] From the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company we have been receiving at Timaru, and now at Lyttelton, a receipt every day that the meat they receive is in good condition. [Put in.] The Shaw, Savill, and Albion Co. have also been insisting on the company giving them a certificate that the meat was in good condition. [Specimen put

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in.] They have also been accustomed to receive this certificate: " We, the undersigned, certify that we have examined the bilges fore and aft, and the roses of all the pumps leading into them, and that we have found the bilges thoroughly clean, the roses and suction-pipes clear, and the sluice-valves on the bulkheads in thorough order." Then follow the signatures of an officer, an engineer, and a carpenter. Also this certificate : " This is to certify that I this day surveyed all the s.s. frozen-meat chambers : That I found them in perfect order, clear, and well battened with fixed battens, and in every way thoroughly seaworthy, and fit for the carrying of frozen meat to any part of the world." This was signed by a shipwright. In addition, we insisted in our frozen-meat contract that the following clauses should be inserted: [See extracts from freight agreement between the shipping companies and Christchurch Meat Company put in, Appendix Q.] There is also a report which I received from London which bears on the matter. [See paper put in on " Possible Causes of Damage to Frozen Meat." Appendix B.] We have made very strong protest to the shipping companies about the engineers taking the logs. We do not think it is more than should be expected from human nature that a man would log up against himself; and since we discovered this system of the engineers logging up we protested to companies and asked them to insist in future that only the officer on the watch should be allowed to log. And we have also asked them the question whether it is true that the engineers are encouraged by bonus to economise in the coal consumed. Ido not know what the upshot will be, so far as the damaged meat some companies have been carrying, but I think the matter will require going into very fully. As far as the Christchurch M.eat Company is concerned, we have taken steps to ascertain how the meat is turning out in London, and we have sent our manager Home simply for the purpose of going thoroughly into this question of the damaged frozen meat, to examine every cargo and see what is the cause. Some say it will not be remedied until the ships are discharged quickly and the whole contents put into the dock stores and very carefully examined. Mr. Thomas Borthwick points out that the " Aotea " has been over a month before clearing her cargo, and he says that " for some time there must have been three damaged carges for one sound " landed. [Statement put in.] So this is becoming a serious matter. Mr. Eandell has been sent Home specially for the purpose of seeing into this, and to try if he cannot get some reliable information. In sending, Mr. Eandell we chose him because he has been a sheepowner ; he has been on board ship and watched the loading; he has watched the sheep frozen ;he knows the care that is taken in handling the sheep, and, in short, the business all through. It is really disappointing that cargo after cargo is landed so often in a disgraceful condition when we know that if it were properly landed it would result in a very large saving to the community. We are quite willing to place Mr. Eandell's services at the disposal of the Government if the Government care to avail themselves of them. [Among the papers handed in by Mr. Anderson were : Eeturn of railages paid by the Christchurch Meat Company on frozen meat from April, 1895, to April, 1896; Extract from an American publication entitled " Ice and Eef'rigeration," with an account of the industry in Victoria ; Canterbury consolidated rate for preparing frozen sheep; Scale of reduction in charges. (Appendix S.) Particulars of trains of frozen meat which have left Islington from January to July, 1896 ; Shipments of frozen meat at Islington for January and February last; Summary of trains carryingfrozen meat from Timaru to Lyttelton for January and February last.] 114. Hon. the Chairman.] You say there is no such thing as a railway rate. Do you mean in uniformity ?—I mean you do not see frozen meat in the tariff. 115. As a matter of fact, is it uniform in different parts of the colony or not ?—There is a uniform rate except in specially long distances. I believe there is a special rate between Oamaru and Port Chalmers —a low rate. There is a higher rate between Timaru and Lyttelton. It is rather an anomaly ; for, although from Oamaru to Port Chalmers the charge is 15s. per mile, we are charged 19s. 4d. 116. About what rate for frozen sheep would place the charge on an equality with other agricultural products?— About 65., I think. 117. As to the time for carrying, have you made representations to the Eailway Department that damage ensues by carrying in the heat of the day ?—The Eailway Department have known for some time that we are exceedingly anxious to get our meat away early. The difficulty has arisen, I believe, through want of the shipping company giving facilities. But if joint action is taken now, and the Eailway Department will back us up, we can get all the frozen meat, as far as Islington is concerned, out of the way before the ordinary traffic. 118. And the railway authority is meeting you on this point ?—They are not helping to meet us except in the way of giving us authority to load all the vans. 119. Hon. the Chairman.'] You said just now that the special train between the two works took thirty vans ? —Fifty-five vans, divided equally between the two works. 120. Was that a condition for the special train ?—My clerk informs me that that has always been the condition insisted on. 121. Does that necessarily entail the meat being on board so long before it is in the ship as to make damage probable ?—Oh, yes ; I think there is no doubt about that. During January and February we had a total of some five hundred carcases returned to Islington, and these were invariably traced out to vans that had been a long time on the way. In several instances, where the meat had been returned, we knew that it had actually been twelve hours between being loaded into the vans and alongside the ship. Every van is noted as to the time at which it is loaded at Islington. That is purely owing to the way the trains are shunted round, so that really the first van loaded is the last one to go on board ship. 122. I understood you to say that, owing to the meat having to be this long period in carriage, it is frozen harder than is desirable, you think?—l think we ought to freeze our meat no more than will just barely suffice to carry it to London. What I have actually demonstrated about meat i»

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this : that immediately you have got the meat killed, and the animal heat is out, the quicker you can freeze it the better. I may further say we had, according to a memorandum sent down, the particulars taken of the length of time meat was in the works before loading for the vessel, and we find that in no instance has meat been put on board a vessel under five days in the works. In the " Tainui " the average time that the meat was in the works was nine days; in the " Euahine," fourteen days; "Gothic," fourteen days; " Tekoa," nineteen days; "Duke of Sutherland," seven days and a half; " Tokomaru," eight days and a half; " Tongariro," nine days. As an actual matter of fact, the ships that are reported as carrying their meat worst, that meat was the longest frozen. 123. Will you say how long, in your opinion, should the meat be frozen before it leaves the works?— What I demonstrated at Islington yesterday. I asked them to get me a sheep that had been in the freezing-rooms four days, and to get one that had been in some considerable time, and to find one, if they could, that had been there a long time. They did not find one that had been in four days; but they took a sheep killed on Monday, the 17th, put into the freezing-room on the 18th, at 10 a.m., and taken out for examination on the 20th, at 12 o'clock. I had that sheep taken out. It was not in a condition fit to be shipped. It was not frozen on the outside, but it was frozen perfectly hard at the bone. We would not have passed it; but that meat was frozen perfectly hard from the inside right out to within Jin. of the surface. You could not drive a penknife into it—showing that some of the theories of the shipping companies are entirely wrong as to the manner in which sheep are being frozen. Some hold the notion that bone-stink is caused by too quick freezing. I have proved absolutely that bone-stink will only be caused through not freezing. Then, we took a sheep that was killed on the 14th, put into a freezing-room on the 15th, and taken out on the 20th, and it was perfectly hard throughout. That is in five days. We took another that had been in the freezing-room for six months, and it was in no better condition than the sheep that had been in five days. 124. On these trials you would say five days would be a fair time to allow ?—Five days is ample. .125. What about the average time from Islington to the ship'?—l do not know the actual average. We know, if the meat is run down clear from all traffic, it can be run through in an hour. 126. Then, in what time do you think it ought to be run through for safety to the meat ?— I should say that in ordinary cases a meat-train should not consist of more than ten trucks. It should be run through in an hour, and it should take about one hour and a half to two hours to put it on board ship—three hours at the outside. 127. You stated in your evidence that you heard at Napier meat was got off within an hour from the chambers to the ship? —Yes —that is, from the " North British." 128. You know that is carried in lighters?— Yes. 129. Do you know that at Napier and other places in the North Island the Eailway Department has required the companies to provide vans ? —I did not know. 130. You do not know that in this case meat is carried entirely in their own vans ?—No, I did not. 131. They never made such a demand on you?— No. We have suggested that we should be allowed to provide our own vans, provided the railway would charge a reasonable haulage rate. 132. Have you ever known ships at Lyttelton refuse sheep on account of the bags being wet ? —No. The ship's officers stand alongside, and they generally try whether they can inssrt a knife into the sheep, or whether they can move the legs. If the sheep cannot be pierced, or the legs moved, they take them. 133. Does not a ship reject all meat not in good order?— They are supposed to. 134. Are you aware the Eailway Department has frequently run special trains without charge with from ten to fifteen trucks? —The Eailway Department this year has made no charge for specials. Formerly they charged £6 for every special train. This year they have made no charge. 135. How long have the frozen-meat railway-trucks been in use? —Some of them are quite new. There is absolutely no objection to be taken to the new vans. Some of the vans, I should think, have been in use from the inception of the trade. I really could not say. 136. Is there any great improvement in the new vans?— There is no fault to be found with them. 137. Has not the smoke nuisance in the Lyttelton tunnel always been the same?—l suppose it has been, but the vans have gradually got blacker. 138. Can you say what proportion of sheep sent by your company have been rejected by ships at Lyttelton? —For January and February, 508. 139. If the bags containing the sheep were wet on arrival at Lyttelton, would the ship accept the same and give receipt ?—Yes, I think so, except when the bags are dirty ; they will not receive them in that case. 140. Would the fact of the bags being wet be, in your opinion, dangerous?— Yes, I think that would be the case, especially if the steamer has not sufficient power. I think they have been increasing the carrying-capacity of a large number of the old boats without increasing the power, and in a very large number of boats the power provided is barely sufficient to keep the meat in good condition. 141. Can you give cases in which the meat has been from twelve to thirteen hours in transit from Islington to the port, and state where the delay was, seeing that it does not take in any case over two hours in transit by rail? —I mentioned that the train loaded at 6 a.m., leaving Islington, say, at nine o'clock, in the ordinary case should catch .the goods-train going to Lyttelton about ten o'clock. It does not; it remains in Christchurch about twenty minutes, and it gets hauled through to Lyttelton at about half-past eleven o'clock. It is started on, a van or two unloaded, and then remains until one o'clock before they commence to unload again. If it is a traiu 7—l. 9.

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of thirty vans the sheep will not be unloaded under five hours. So that that fully accounts for the twelve hours. 142. You have told the Committee that during the last six years meat has fallen in price from H&. to Is this not due to falling prices in consequence of large quantities of meat in bad order being landed along with the good, and not due to the ordinary fall in the price of mutton ? —Yes, I think so. The fall in prices was largely owing to it. 143. What reduction in the sheep-rate from Islington to the port would you consider adequate ?—I should think there should be, at any rate, 2s. taken off. I would suggest that meat be classed with other agricultural produce. 144. Would the producer be benefited by such a reduction in railway-rates ?—Oh, yes. 145. What would it amount to per pound per sheep ? —About -|d. We have reduced the freezing down to decimals of a penny. 146. Are you of opinion that, in the interests of the trade, it would be desirable there should be a system under which certificates should be given of the condition of the meat on leaving the works, and a certificate of condition when received by the ships ?—One would have to go into the matter first. 147. lam talking of a Government inspection?—l do not think it would be any better than the self-interest of the freezing companies at present. 148. You see no necessity for it ? —I see no necessity. 149. With respect to the vessels: Do I understand there are some ships noted for damaged cargoes ?—There are some that have become notorious. 150. Have you formed any conclusion why? —I think it is mostly that the ships are old and the insulation has not been properly effected, or, in other words, they have not been spending enough money in overhauling the vessels. With the ship coming out from Home, as it requires to do, with the freezing-chambers not insulated, carrying all sorts of cargoes, the closest scrutiny and most thorough inspection and examination should take place on this side. Ido not think it is any use to have it in London. I think it should be insisted on to have every vessel subjected to most careful inspection before any meat is taken on board it at any port. 151. Is the damage on board ship confined mostly to meat shipped in the hot weather, or is there any large proportion of it at other times ?—Until we get further on in the season we shall not be able to say ; but, so far, it has been the vessels that have taken the meat on board during the hot months of the year. 152. You spoke of the registering as at present conducted being unsatisfactory. How could that be remedied ? —By having self-registering thermometers, and by taking the log temperature entirely out of the hands of the engineers. It should be under the control of an officer of the ship. 153. And that system would insure getting reliable records ?—Yes. Take, for instance, the " Tekoa," which is reported as being very bad. The letter which I put in showed that in the inspection log there had been no high temperature recorded at all. In the case of the "Tongariro" it was the same; and it was known that the freezing-machinery of the latter vessel broke down. 154. Mr. Buchanan.] In the experiment of two days' freezing, which you have just described, when you found the marrow hard frozen while the outside was not so, how do you explain that ?— The freezing takes place from the inside of the carcase outwards. 155. In all cases? —It does in our case. There was absolute demonstration and proof here. It certainly would with the system we have adopted. 156. Freezing takes place, does it not, by the extraction of heat from the carcase ?- -Yes. 157. How do you explain the apparent anomaly that the heat was in your case extracted not from the outside, but apparently from the inside?—l think it must of necessity be that. If it were the other way about, you would freeze a hard coat on the outside of the carcase, and it would be impossible to get the heat out of the centre. But as you apply the cold the heat from the outside, I take it, is continually working to the surface. 158. Did you test the centre of the meat? —I saw the carcase in the most special part, just at the butt of the legs, where, if there was any bone-taint, you would have found it. 159. Oh, yes ; but that is not the point. Did you test the centre of the meat, apart from the marrow itself? —Yes; I had it sawn first across, and tested the meat with a pocketknife right through till we saw whether it was soft. 160. Was any hot meat introduced into that room during that special time ? —We never introduce any hot meat afterwards, because that would bring the other meat back. 161. You said the bags on the outside of the carcases are frequently damp at Lyttelton from a too long transit of twelve to thirteen hours, and mildew arose from piling the carcases from 12ft. to 20ft. deep. Are you aware the Hawke's Bay meat is generally thirteen to sixteen hours in transit in a hotter climate than Canterbury, and that it was reported to reach London in uniformly good condition ?—Well, the two circumstances are not similar. For instance, first of all, I believe (I did not bring the temperatures with me, but I remember them pretty well), it was found the temperatures in Canterbury were higher than in other parts in New Zealand, except somewhere up by the Three Kings. We carry our meat, if the ships force us to, from Timaru, a distance of over a hundred miles, and it invariably arrives in port in good condition. But we are allowed to freeze down the trucks. 162. Are yoif aware that in Australia, from the Deniliquin and Brighton works, they have been carrying meat in a hotter climate than ours for a long time in good condition?—l knew they had been in Melbourne, and that is what made me go into the question here ; and the result of my inquiry was that the new trucks carry their meat in good condition. The man that we sent to Lyttelton to examine all the carcases that go on board the ship said that invariably all the soft carcases come out of tho wagons with the hip-roofs. 163. It has been stated that meat delivered from Belfast and Islington to Lyttelton bears

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unfavourable comparison to meat from Timaru?—l answered that. We are allowed to freeze down the trucks at Timaru. We are promised the same facilities at Islington. 164. Do you admit that statement in evidence ?—I admit that the Timaru. meat always comes up in good condition. . 165. Better than Islington or Belfast ?--Only in the case of the small trucks. 166. At what temperature do you keep the meat for a given time before transferring it into the tracks at Timaru and Islington? —At both works we never consider the meat is frozen until it has stood for some considerable time at a temperature of something like zero —from zero to 8 deg. or 10 deg. 167. And for what time before trucking?— Not less than five days. I take it that that is demonstration sufficient from what I proved—that after three days the meat is quite right enough to carry. 168. You mentioned a bonus to engineers for saving coal. Are you aware that any shipping companies give the engineers a bonus in that direction ? —That was the general remark I heard, and it certainly put a different complexion on the matter. W T e are endeavouring to find it out. We cannot say definitely. 169. It has been denied in evidence. In your experience, do you know of any ships in the trade which, under the varying conditions that arise, have always delivered their meat in good condition in London ?—I think it is known that certain lines carry their meat better than other lines. 170. Are you aware of any ships that have uniformly delivered their meat in good condition?— There are some vessels in the trade that have always an unbroken record for delivering meat in first-class condition, never turning out a bad carcase. 171. Are you similarly aware that there are ships that are notorious in the contrary direction— always damaging their meat ? —Yes. 172. Mr. Flatman.] It is frequently found, I believe, that the bottom tiers in the cargoes are landed in worse condition than the top tiers of meat ? —Yes, I have thought so. 173. How do you account for it?— Largely on account of the weight of the meat above; and if it is. true, that many of the steamers lately have altered their air-trunks, that may have something to do with it. When the vessels were constructed in the first instance they were mostly constructed with air-trunks down to the bottom of the hold. These have been taken out on the assumption that cold air will fall. But it will not get through carcases of mutton with a tremendous weight of mutton above. 174. If they were properly frozen, weight would not make any difference to them ?—But they cannot be kept frozen. There is always a certain amount of latent heat in anything. 175. Would defective insulation account for it? —Yes; that is why we are pressing for the examination of the vessels here. If the vessel ever carried any liquid, the water is bound to get through the insulation, and charcoal is the only insulator, so far as I know, which contains airspaces. 176. Do you know if the ships freeze down their chambers before taking the carcases on board ? —They are under contract to do so, but we have had, on more than one occasion, to report some vessels for not doing so. 177. You say the department will not grant you special trains for carrying meat at all times?— They will not grant us special trains except we undertake to load all the vans. What we are asking for is that the whole traffic should be removed to the early morning hours, out of the heat of the day. 178. Have you ever refused special trains offered you by the Eailway Department ?—I do not think so. Of course, an odd case might have occurred where it was impossible to load the train at the particular time the Eailway Department asked us to; but in the ordinary course you can quite understand that, if the men loading mutton have been working for about twelve hours, it would be impossible for them to load immediately again without proper rest. 179. Why are you not allowed to freeze down the trucks ?—There is no proper place to freeze them down at Islington. 179 a. You spoke of freezing meat harder than was good for it. Would you think that meat ought to be kept down, say, to 10 deg. for a week before being put on board ship ?—lt always is except it is loaded out of a freezing-room, and then it is loaded from zero. 180. And do you believe that the gentleman who sent you that report from London was an expert ? —That comes from Weddel and Co., next to Nelson Brothers, the largest people in the meat trade. 181. Do you think it would be of any benefit to send a supervisor with each cargo, and give him the same amount of authority as to the temperature of the chambers for logging in conjunction with the engineer ?—An objection to that would be the enormous expense. I think you could get it with self-registering thermometers, which could be under the charge of the captain, or you could have self-registering thermometers that could remain in the carcase, showing the lowest tempera* ture that had been reached, and the highest. 182. The expense of sending a man Home, say, with 50,000 sheep would be infinitesimal, would it not ?— [No reply.] 183. Are not the ships to blame for the delay in the discharge of the trucks —for the trucks standing in Lyttelton ? —To some extent. 184. They could unload faster if they liked to put on extra workmen or pay for overtime ?■— » I do not think they could unload more that seven trucks an hour. 185. Is it usual to freeze ewes that have had lambs, and send them Home as second-class mutton ?—Yes, from time to time; but I do not think it has paid any one for the last few years to send them. It has only paid to send the first-class mutton,

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186. Do you think they would be more subject to bone-stink than maiden ewes and wethers ?—I do not think bone-stink would be caused from any reason except not freezing. I had a little practical experience of that shortly after I joined the meat business. One of our engines broke down, and we had it patched up. We went on working, and the machine gave us trouble again, and we could not freeze that meat fast enough. That meat was kept quite separate when exported, and turned up in London with bone-stink, proving that bone-stink was caused by not freezing. 187. You say the Eailway Department has now allowed you to cool down the trucks at Islington, as at Timaru. Has the Eailway Department refused to allow that before ? —I do not think we asked the question from them before, but when we did ask them they met us in a fair and generous manner. 188. Is it not due to the fact that you have made provision at Timaru and not at Islington ? —■ No ;we had the facilities at Islington some time ago. We took them away because the vans were not constructed in this manner then. Before my time I believe there were some fixings. 189. You believed that the price charged by the freezing companies is a paying price to the companies?— This is the first year we have got down to such a low price as this. 190. Good enough to declare a dividend, in any case '?—I hope so; but we are getting down to starvation-wages. 191. Mr. Laiory.] Is the slaughterhouse of the freezing-works contiguous to the freezingchamber ?—The cooling-room comes in between the slaughterhouse and the freezing-chamber. 192. Practically it is all under the same roof? —Yes, they are all attached. 193. Are you aware that, in giving his evidence here, Mr. Gaw, the Traffic Manager, stated he had never known one case where a truck containing frozen meat was more than six hours in transit between Islington and Lyttelton?—Of course, it might be for the actual transit to Lyttelton ; Ido not say that. But I have known cases where a particular van, say, V 3 or W32, was loaded at six o'clock in the morning and was not taken on board the ship until six o'clock at night. 194. Would that not be attributable to the fact that it was kept stationary at the freezingworks for a long time ?—No; the vans are loaded as quickly as possible and taken right away. 195. Have you ever made any test of the relative values of charcoal and pumice as insulators ? —I have proved them both pretty thoroughly. We use pumice in all our new work ; we feel satisfied pumice will insulate well. 196. Mr. Buddo.] In your previous evidence you said you believed there would be no damage to the meat if it were put in the freezing-chamber straight away after being killed ?—lt would not be economical to do so before you took the animal heat out, and to take out the heat by artificial means would not pay. 197. Would you approve of such a system ?—I do not think I should adopt it. 198. What is the nature of the damage to the carcase given in your reports to the London brokers?—lt is very seldom particularised. The carcases are simply marked "damaged." The surveyors who survey the meat do not particularise except in the case of bone-stink, which they will not pay for. 199. Has your company taken under consideration the sex of the sheep in relation to the damage of the carcases by bone-stink ?—We have never had any experience of bone-stink except that particular case five years ago. 200. In addition to the officers of the watch taking the log temperatures instead of the engineer in charge, is there anything else you would suggest might minimise the amount of damage? —Nothing except the thorough inspection of the vessels here before loading. 200 a. How long after the arrival does the insurance hold good ? —Sixty days. 201. If this limit was reduced, would it be an advantage?—l think it would be a great advantage if the clause was knocked out. 202. I think you stated in your previous evidence that early morning trains would suit your traffic better. Have the railway authorities ever put anything in the way of your having these early morning trains ?—I do not think it has ever been put prominently before them. Their whole attention, you see, has been drawn to this subject prominently the last month or two. The railways have never been asked in a definite and distinct manner, so we cannot say they have refused. 203. Does the Eailway Department require a certain number of trucks before they grant a special train?— They have in the past. 204. What is the limit ?—They have stipulated that Belfast and ourselves must load the fiftyfive vans provided. We consider Timaru should have its own facilities, so that a vessel can go to Timaru at any time, pick up its meat quickly, and get away. At the present time it not unfrequently happens, through not sufficient trucks being available, the vessel is unable to take a portion of its meat at Timaru, and has to go on to Lyttelton, where the balance is railed up. Of course, it is more profitable to the Eailway Department, but certainly not to the freezing company. 205. Take a typical case: You ask the railway authorities to give you a special train at a certain hour in the morning and to provide, say, ten trucks, would you get that request granted ? I think it ought to be. 206. But have you had a precedent of that sort ?—The return I have put in has shown that scarcely in any instance has a train been loaded at six o'clock with from less than twenty to twentyfive vans, and I take it that the stipulation was that we had to load more. 207. You contend that in a case where you would wish to load ten or more trucks it was likely to be refused ?—We should not ask the railway to give us a special for ten vans, because we should feel certain it would be refused. 208. You think nothing less than thirty vans would be required for a special train?— Yes. 209. Has not the Eailway Department asked you to work early and late, and you have

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refused ? —I do not think so. Of course, you must understand that in a large concern like ours there may be conversations going on between the Bailway Department and the loading clerks that are not reported to me. But I should think a case like that would be referred to me, and there has been no such case referred. 210. Have you had special trains with from ten to fifteen vans without special charge ? —The railways have made no special charge for special trains this year. 211. Hon. the Chairman (on behalf of Mr. Eichardson).] What is the shortest time you have had sheep in the freezing-chamber that you have sent forward for shipment ? —The shortest time we have ever put meat on board a vessel is five days. The actual average is from nine to nineteen. 212. Was the " Euahine " one of the vessels that had cargo damaged which was shipped in January and February last ? —Yes. 213. Mr. McLachlan.] You consider asking for a special train for ten trucks a reasonable request ? —Yes. We ask for ten trucks to go by ordinary train, but think that special trains should run in the early morning. 213 a. You have reckoned the charge that you pay the railway at 2Jd. per sheep, leaving you 3fd. Is there any perquisite over and above that for the manipulation of the sheep?—We get all the perquisites except the fat. 214. What is the value of that?—lt varies with the condition of the sheep. 215. I think you give that to the farmer?— The farmer gets all the fat. 216. Does the railway get anything over and above 2-J-d., which is net cash with them? — Yes, net cash, paid weekly. 217. With regard to the evidence given by Mr. Nelson, ho said a perfectly-frozen sheep even if wet with a partial thaw would not damage. Would you think that evidence correct ?—lt depends on the condition of the sheep when put in. If the outer portion of the skin is thawed it is not in a frozen state, and if it is not refrozen the decay or damage will set in. 218. Assuming that you never send meat but what is perfectly frozen, would this little moisture be from a partial thaw ?—I think it would account for the mildew. 219. Of the 508 sheep returned to you as damaged in transit from the trucks to the ship, what was the reason assigned for their refusal?— That they simply felt wet, and the ship refused them. We never raise any question with the ship. If they refuse carcases we just take them back, because they are bound, under our contract, to take nothing but perfectly-frozen sheep. 220. You said you found that sheep you examined frozen from the inside outwards. Would it have time for that ?—lt was only forty-eight hours in the freezing-room. 221. Is it an ascertained fact that sheep and all meat are frozen from the inside outwards?—l take it that it is so. 222. Would the reduction in the rate that you ask, and think reasonable, from 2s. to 2s. 6d., not entail some tax upon the taxpayer, or is the traffic derived from the railway sufficient to allow this and still make a profit ?—The Eailway Department are making very unfair profit out of the frozen-meat industry. We are more than paying for the frozen-meat vans every year. 223. Mr. Wilson.] You spoke of the ships being old and out of repair. Do any of your clients refuse to ship in particular ships?— Lately, I may say, we have had requests that meat should not be put in certain steamers. 224. Do you comply with this request ?—Oh, yes, we have to. 225. You also say you think freights should be reduced by about half a crown. This seems such a small sum that probably the producer would not get much out of it. Would it not be more important that you should have, say, ten-truck trains at times that would suit you better?—l would very much rather have the meat carried in good condition than ask for a reducion of freights; but at the same time I do not think it is fair that an important industry should be taxed in this way. I w 7 ould prefer the special facilities. What I would suggest is that the whole traffic should be run through before the ordinary traffic starts. 226. The consolidated rate of T %d. is the winter rate, is it not ? —July to November. 227. What is the summer rate? —J-d. 228. The charge does not include the cost of sales at Home?— Our consolidated rate at the present time, including everything, is lfd. [For questions asked Mr. Anderson by the Eailway Department, and answers thereto, see Appendix Z.]

Tuesday, 25th August, 1896. —(Hon. Mr. Oemond, Chairman.) Mr. Bele examined. Mr. I, Eelf, chief engineer of the s.s. " Mataura," called to give evidence as to transit of frozen meat by sea, said, We take the meat occasionally in New Zealand not in first-class condition. It is sent down hurriedly, and I often think it is not thoroughly frozen. I am of opinion that it would be very much better if the meat were allowed to lie, at the very least, from four to six days in the refrigerators on shore; whereas it is often only there for a few hours—twenty-four hours, or, perhaps, forty-eight hours. The fault of this, I think, is due to the hurried way in which the exporters want to get the meat out of the country. Thus, when it gets on board the ship it is not thoroughly frozen. Consequently, in transit from the works it gets a kind of thawed appearance on the outer edges ; and when it is placed in the hold, one sheep upon another, they flatten each other down, and prevent any air getting in between them, which often is the cause of meat going wrong. You see, if the meat were thoroughly frozen and very hard when it comes in, hollows would be formed between the carcases, and the air would permeate through and keep it all in good condition. But sometimes when one carcase is allowed to fall close to another you may often find they stick together, thus preventing the air getting through, and I think

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that is due to their not being properly frozen before being sent on board. Then, I think, again, the stowage might be done better. The frozen mutton should be stowed with a view to admitting air into every part of the ship, so that it could get about in all directions through the sheep and keep them in a cool condition. I have also discovered at times that there have been spotted sheep. This I consider to be due to the place where they are killed and not to the ship at all. It has been tried to put the blame on to those in charge of the vessel. But the ship certainly has nothing to do with that, because you will pick out spotted sheep in amongst good sheep. Now, it could not possibly occur that these sheep could be spotted and the others remain good through the fault of the refrigeration of the vessel. You may pass two hundred good sheep, and suddenly you may come across some that are spotted. This certainly is not due to the improper refrigeration of the ship, but more probably is due to the killing and not thorough drying of the sheep before freezing. There may be matter about a sheep that causes the spots. I think the only cure for that is a little more care to be taken in the killing and freezing. They should be thoroughly dried before they are frozen. Ido not think enough time is allowed for this. We often have sheep sent down to the vessel and we refuse them, but I am convinced they are only sent back, hardened up on the outside, and returned to the ship again. As long as the ship takes the meat away, then all the onus of the blame comes upon the ship. There is not the least doubt that between the ships and those who are sending the meat there is a kind of scheming. The companies might say, "If we can get them into the ship and get a clean receipt for them we are all right." Then, when the vessel goes Home we have to undergo a very rigid examination. The shirts are all pulled off, and the sheep examined as minutely as possible, and the slightest defect noticed. But when we receive the sheep they object to have the cloths removed or cut. Often I have had this objected to, in Timaru especially. And when one is compelled to take sheep in the ships as they are without examination, and yet, upon arrival in England they are to be examined so minutely and the blame attached to the wrong party, I think there is nothing just about it. I have carried sheep now for over seven years, and I certainly have not had many bad sheep v We have carried as many as 60,000 without having two bad ones, and, again, I have had as high as forty and fifty bad ones in 38,000. The reason for the bad sheep I attribute to what I have stated previously. The fault has been on shore, because you could not possibly pick from amongst a number of good sheep one or two that were spotted from want of cold air. That would not be possible unless in the stowing they were pressed together, and the air prevented from passing between those sheep. I think the usual temperature I carry sheep Home at is a very satisfactory one—that is, ranging between 15° and 18°. Barely have I had them over 20° on any occasion; and, as I tell you, it has been a success. Prom 15° to 18° I consider a most successful temperature to carry the sheep Home at, and I see nothing to prevent any engineer carrying his sheep Home at that temperature. I think, also, that great care should be taken not to stow sheep and butter and cheese too close together. Produce requiring a high temperature, or a temperature much higher than is necessary for the sheep, is put close to the sheep, and sometimes in endeavouring to prevent the one going contrary to what is required the other goes contrary. I think great care should be taken that the cheeseroom should be specially kept apart from all meat. With butter it is a different thing. We take butter Home in a frozen condition—in fact, it is at as low a temperature as the meat. It does not hurt the butter at all we find. But you cannot carry cheese at a temperature over 40° to 45°, otherwise you spoil it; and if you have not a proper chamber for the cheese you run the risk of either spoiling the one or the other. Ido not know that there is anything else that I can recollect. I think I have mentioned the strongest points in the case. 1. Mr. Wilson.] You said that the stowage was bad. What do you mean by that?—At times. The stowage is bad if the sheep are stowed in a way so that they are not a3 it were open to receive all the air passing through the chamber. 2. Who does the stowage ?—Any person does the stowage. I do not mean of any special place or any special stowage. 3. I understand. But is it not the duty of the ship to see it properly stowed ?—I suppose it is. 4. Then who looks after it ? The mate of the vessel? —Yes, generally speaking, but, of course, he cannot look after every single sheep that is stowed. 5. Is there any one in the hold to watch the stowage ?—Oh, yes, some one is in the hold to watch the stowage. 6. Then bad stowage cannot be put down to any one but the ship's officers. Who inspect the sheep as they go in?-r-All the officers inspect them at the holds, and I inspect myself. The engineer could not possibly attend to all the holds. There is only one engineer responsible for it, and that is the chief engineer, and he could not be forward and aft at the same time. He takes promiscuous turns. He walks about and looks at the sheep, because he is responsible for their being received well. Otherwise he does nothing. 7. For what reason do you object to take sheep?— When they are soft; we have not the chance to look for spots. It is impossible to cut the sheep open and see if there are spots in them. But when they are turned out the men who are receiving the sheep will take every other sheep and slit the shirt open if they like. But we are obliged to take the sheep with the shirts on, for if we looked at them all we should never get the cargo on board at all. 8. And what is your process ?—We pick the sheep by the flank, for that is the best indication. If there is anything that goes soft in the sheep it is the flank, that part which will not hold the cold longest. If the sheep go at the legs we reject them. But lam quite certain these when sent back are just hardened up again and returned; they are not properly frozen. 9. There is no way of examining a sheep unless you were to receive them and pass them at the works ? —That is the only way it could be overcome. 10. Mr. Buchanan.] Have you ever detected spots on sheep on being delivered alongside a ship for stowage?—No, I have not.

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11. So that the remarks which you have been making about spots merely refer to the discharge of the sheep in London ?—Yes. 12. And you mean to tell the Committee that you are satisfied the sheep are frequently spotted on delivery alongside the ship for stowage ?—Yes; I have not the slightest doubt. If not, the germs are there and they are not matured. 13. Do you still adhere to the statement that, in your opinion, the sheep are frequently spotted upon delivery alongside the ship, putting germs aside ?—Yes. If they are not spotted enough to show, they are spotted sufficiently well that they will develop on the passage. It is not the higher temperature that produces spots. 14. In such a serious matter as this, have you never taken steps to make sure ?—Yes, I have taken steps, and been refused sheep if I did not take them without cutting the shirts off. You cannot see the spots unless you take the shirts off. 15. And would you not be justified, in defence of the ship, in refusing such sheep ?—No doubt I should, but, then, I have something else to consider : If I refuse the sheep, where is the cargo to come from ? 16. Have you not got a right as chief refrigerating officer of the ship to examine any one sheep in any way you choose?— There is no doubt I have that right. 17. And yet you tell us that you were refused leave to take the shirt off and examine the sheep ? —I have been. 18. By whom?—By the chief refrigerator of the place from which we have been taking in meat. He has been down at the ship to see the meat come on board, and he has said, "I cannot allow those shirts to be cut off like that. You will either have to take them or we shall have to stop them." 19. And yet you allow these sheep to come on board when you are in doubt about their condition ?—Yes, lam obliged to. What else can Ido ? 20. May I ask what are your instructions from the shipping company ? —I have not a copy with me. I can tell you, however. lam to keep certain temperatures in the hold. It has to be down to zero for so many hours before the meat comes in, and during the passage Home it has to be kept at 15°. ' All the particulars regarding freezing are very clear to me. And lam to shut up the hold if in taking the meat in it rises above a certain temperature. If it rises above a certain temperature I insist on the hold being shut up. 21. But I mean your instructions with regard to accepting or rejecting sheep?—ls clear that I am to reject all sheep I am not satisfied with. 22. And yet you have accepted sheep of which you were doubtful—of which you wanted to slit the shirts ? —Most assuredly. I explained to you how it is done. I cannot possibly cut every shirt. I might say lam doubtful of every sheep, because, between the two, one is trying to edge the sheep in and the other trying to stop it. I must pick and cut here and there, and find out whether there are any bad sheep. Then, lam even denied the privilege of cutting the shirt. lam rendering the sheep unfit to go to market they consider by cutting the shirt. 23. Why cut the shirt off when, as you know, it is quite easy to undo it ?—Yes; but not quite so easy as cutting a slit in the centre. 24. Every one knows how easy it is to undo the shirt. And supposing you undo the shirt of one in fifty, would it not be morally certain that you would quickly detect either spots or anything else that might be the matter with the sheep ?—lt is possible I might discover them; it is possible I might drop across one as you say. 25. Would it not be morally certain that you would ? —lt might be. We take ten thousand sheep a day, say. I take two sheep in every hundred to take their shirts off and examine. That would take two men a considerable time to do, and that would be objected to as stopping the work of loading the ship. 26. But would it be stopping the work at all when having discovered something doubtful about the sheep you insisted upon undoing the shirts of one in fifty? —Yes. 27. Would you not be able to call hands to you assistance and be able to look over as many sheep as you required?— No. You think I should take off a shirt and get some one else to put it on again and pass it into the hold. That is a little too much for me to do. 28. What is the value of the examination then ?—We do not take the shirts off at Home. The men who are interested in the business at Home take them off. We would pass them in if we could without taking the shirts off, but they insist upon it. 29. What is the use of the examination at all by the ship's officers here unless it is insisted in being done in a proper way ?—lt is done in a proper way certainly. 30. If you do not examine a sufficient number of them, what would be the use of examining them at all to see if they are right? —Examining with regard to soft sheep can be done without any trouble whatever, but to look for the spots entails a tremendous amount of work. 31. You said, I believe, that sheep in some cases were frozen only a few hours—from twentyfour to forty-eight ?—Yes ; sometimes forty-eight hours. 32. Did you know that fact at the time? —It is just simply passed in conversation with the people connected with the works that the sheep have been so long on the works. I have made private inquiries sometimes, and have found they have not been killed forty-eight hours. 33. Is that universal ? —"Very frequent. Sometimes meat has lain frozen for two or three months, and I have found that meat in splendid condition, as hard as this table, and have had no trouble with it. 34. Do you mean to say that the manager of any meat company has admitted to you that the meat has been frozen only forty-eight hours? —I have got the information, either directly or indirectly, that the meat has not been more than forty-eight hours in the freezing-rooms.

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35. Are you prepared to say that the engineer of any of the freezing companies has admitted that ?—Yes; they have indirectly admitted it. It has been admitted, although they may not have directly stated it. 36. You said when delivery is made of sheep that are soft at the edges and pressure comes down upon them they squeeze down and stop the circulation of air ?—Yes. 37. If you refuse delivery of soft sheep, how, then, has that position come about ?—Because in many instances when I have considered the sheep only slightly soft I have allowed them to go in, because I know I can soon harden them. But if there is a pressure of sheep coming in very quick, and involving a tremendous amount of weight, they sometimes get misshapen before they can be hardened. It is simply to avoid their being returned to the ship that I take them. 38. You have admitted that ? —That I should often send them back if it were not for the trouble of doing so. 39. In other words, have you admitted soft sheep on certain occasions into the ship ?—Yes. 40. You said sometimes you came to two hundred sheep, and then you have come across some spotted? —Yes. 41. That refers to the discharging of sheep in London?— Yes. 42. You say that when you reject soft sheep they simply take them away and harden them and send them back ? —Yes. 43. I think you have already stated that you were able at once without taking off the wrapper to detect whether a sheep is thoroughly frozen or not ?—I can detect whether it is soft in the flank, but not whether it is thoroughly frozen inside. 44. You stated that you sometimes handled the legs to see. Is it so ? Is it not a fact that you can ascertain by laying hold of the legs and trying to shift them whether the sheep is frozen properly or not? —Yes, you can. If the flank seems all right you can pass the sheep. 45. Supposing you took one in fifty, would you be able to ascertain whether the sheep was in good condition ?—Yes; I think you would. 46. You said it was generally a scheme to get the sheep on board and get a clear receipt?— That is what it seemed to me. 47. It is merely an opinion ?—Yes ; I give that simply as an opinion. 48. Would not the shipper of such sheep suffer heavily by his own act if he put soft sheep on board by any scheme? —I do not see how he would suffer heavily at all. 49. Is the ship responsible ? —Yes, once it receives the sheep. 50. Do you mean the ship in all cases pays for damage ? —Up to the value of the freight, after which the insurance company pays. 51. Are you aware that a great many go Home with no insurance upon them?— Yes; certain people send them Home in that way. 52. You say you have often rejected sheep at Timaru?—l do not specially pick out Timaru, because I have rejected them in this port and at Lyttelton. I have received the best sheep at Timaru as a rule. 53. You say that your temperature on board ship ranges from 15° to 18°?— Yes. 54. After receiving sheep on board in thoroughly good condition, would it be possible for them to get seriously damaged at that low temperature? —Certainly not. 55. How, then, do you account for the damage that we unfortunately know has taken place at some point between receiving on board and delivery in London ?—Well, I cannot account for it, because I have not had it occur with me, only in the cases I have mentioned to you. 56. If the other ships kept their temperatures at 15° to 18°, would it, in your opinion, be possible for sheep to get damaged at that temperature ?—No, Ido not think so; not on board ship. I think the sheep would have been damaged, as I said before, previous to our receiving them. They have been passed through slightly soft, and then have got misshapen. If the sheep came hard to the ship I do not think they could be damaged. 57. You said it was a bad thing to put cheese in contact with the sheep?— Yes. A place should bo provided for the cheese to be carried in. In some instances it is only temporarily carried in an improvised chamber. 58. You think the ship ought to make other provision than that?—lf she is going to carry cheese. 59. Which would suffer, the cheese or the meat ?—The meat. In trying to keep the cheese right the meat would suffer round about the vicinity of the cheese. 60. Are you in charge of the ship in London until it is discharged?— Yes, I am in charge of the meat. 61. Can you tell the Committee what the temperature is supposed to be in the hold of the ship during the process of discharging ?—Yes; it is never supposed to rise above 25° to 28° without the hatches being put on and being cooled down again. 62. Would you be surprised if I were to tell you that on a good many occasions in London on board ships belonging to not one but several lines I found the temperature ranging up to 38° ?— Not at all. 63. And yet you tell us that the rule is if the temperature rises to 25° or 28°.t0 shut the hold down and reduce the temperature?— Yes, under the same circumstances, as I said before. 64. How do you account for the temperature being allowed to rise to this high point ?—The hatch is taken off, then the sun must quickly raise the temperature in the hold. 65. lam speaking of the hold generally ?—I should be very much surprised to find it at 38°. 66. Still more that it was 40° on deck?—l have never had experience of that. I should say that that is totally wrong. 67. Even if I had the thermometer in my hand to test it?—l do not say you are wrong; it is on the part of the people on board the ship ; it is a case of neglect of some sort.

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68. Would not the meat be liable to become spotted if such a practice as that were permitted?— It might become spotted, but those particular spots we complain of are spots that are always found in the same place. We never have to complain of them except in one place in the sheep —right in the centre of the back. We can put our hands on it. One of our greatest refrigerating engineers out here is quite in agreement with me that you are not to blame the ships in this matter. It must be seen it cannot be owing to the marine refrigerator, or the carrying department, when it is well known that spots are likely to appear in certain months. 69. Do the men work in the holds in London when the machinery is going ?—Yes ; if we think it necessary they will work, but here, unfortunately, they will not. 70. Do you say that absolutely?—l say that positively. 71. That they never work here when the machinery is going?—l have had to bring great pressure to bear on the men to induce them to work in the holds when the machinery is going. 72. Both in London and here the men can be got?— Yes; but they will work more freely in London in the cold hold when the machinery is running. I have seen the whole of them refuse to work out here while the machinery is going. 73. Hon. Mr. Johnston.'] I think you said you had taken soft sheep on board?—l do not mean soft sheep quite; I mean with soft flanks. 74. Have you ever knowingly taken soft sheep on an occasion when you could not at once make them rigid ?—No ; if I had soft sheep at all, if I detected them, I would have them put on one side. There is not the slightest doubt that some partially soft have gone in that I could not detect. 75. Not knowingly ?—No. 76. In your opinion a sheep could be made absolutely rigid outside and yet not be frozen throughout ?—Sufficiently rigid to misguide me ; I do not say if I cut it open and carefully examined it. You could deceive me with a partial examination such as occurs in taking sheep on board ship. 77. Mr. Fraser.] You said that, on occasion, leave had been refused you to pull the shirts off sheep to examine them as you wished ?—Yes. 78. Although you had the power to enforce it ? Do I understand that your not exercising that power was more a question of policy with regard to the owners ?—ln a measure ; that is my meaning. 79. If you insisted on examining the sheep when you pleased you ran the risk of losing the cargo for your ship ?—Yes, or detaining or obstructing the work. 80. What remedy would you propose to obviate this risk you refer to before the sheep came on board the ship at all ? Would Government inspection at the works remove that difficulty —that sheep should be frozen a number of days, say?— That, I think, would. If you placed on record the necessity of having the sheep placed at a certain temperature for a number of days you would insure the sheep being received better than they are now. 81. Is it not possible that the sheep may have got softened somewhat in the transit between the works and the ship ? —lt frequently occurs. If we receive Timaru sheep at Lyttelton they have a long way to come, and sometimes the top tiers that are near the top of the car will become soft in the flank. The rest are very good. I cannot send these sheep back. I therefore take these sheep into the hold and stow them in a cool place. But I watch them. I know these sheep will become soft if not well looked after. But when they come in often I am quite convinced, in my mind, that the refrigerating houses know that they are sending sheep that are likely to be returned. 82. Do you know of any occasion where sheep between Belfast works and other works near Christchureh have been delayed between the works and shipped in an imperfect condition from these places?—l cannot say. I believe they are sometimes delayed in transmission. But with the meat coming from Timaru to Lyttelton the top tiers are bound to get a little soft in the flank; that can hardly be helped. But if they were placed right in the hold they would be pretty sure to become misshapen, so these sheep have to be placed on one side and be thoroughly frozen at a spot where they can be got at. 83. I understood you had an objection to Mr. Buchanan's suggestion about examining one sheep in fifty. One objection was the loss of time, I think; but if you were restricted to one in fifty it would not enable you to examine five or six in a hundred?—l like to examine when and where I like. You say, " Why not open the shirt " ? It is an easy matter to open a shirt; but if I have the shirt ripped down I do not see that there is any detriment to the sheep at all. 84. Are the lighters at Home insulated?— Yes ; they are prepared lighters for the conveyance of meat. There is another very peculiar thing I might mention :We are answerable for the sheep until it absolutely arrives in the warehouse. Now, they come alongside the ship and fill their lighter. They take that lighter, we will say for the sake of argument, to Blackfriars. We are answerable for that lighter until it is discharged into the building by some very peculiar arrangement on the part of the shipowners. They would actually put a claim in for sheep that are soft or have anything wrong in them until the meat is placed in the warehouse. 84a. Of course, the insurance company comes in there ?—Yes, but then the blame sometimes comes on the engineer of the ship. 85. You mean the blame reflects on the engineer of the ship from causes beyond his control? —Just so. 86. Could you account for the great losses that have occurred recently in the vessels that have gone Horne —such as 700 in one vessel ?—Unless an accident would account for them. I see no reason why there should be any number bad unless there has been an accident to the machinery, or something of that sort. 87. Mr. McLachlan.] You say that meat frequently comes to the ships not more than twentyfour hours after killing ?—You have brought it a little close, sir; I said forty-eight, about two days. 88. Would you be astonished that all the evidence submitted says they have not sent meat frozen for less than three days under any circumstances —generally a week ? —I should not be astonished if they say that. B—l. 9.

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89. You have carried many thousand sheep at a time and only had two damaged ?—About two. 90. Were the conditions similar with similar damage?— Sometimes when we call here we find the refrigerating places all filled up with meat —perhaps been so for a few weeks. Then, those sheep are in splendid condition. At another time there is a hurried export, and then you may get bad sheep. 91. But the condition of the sheep, are they not the same? —Yes, very nearly always uniform. 92. Do you keep the temperature the same ?—I am instructed to keep it from 15° to 18° and I do so. 93. Do you think, in your experience, that a sheep could be frozen in the inside and soft on the outside ?—Yes, certainly it could, because you see the influence of the outside atmosphere will first come upon parts of the breast, and that will turn quickest, and the inside of the sheep may be very well; but if it is exposed long to the rays of the sun the flank is the place where it will feel it soonest, and that flank may be soft in three or four hours, when the sheep itself may be in good condition. That is the reason why I receive them. 94. Do you think that sheep out in the refrigerator at the proper temperature could be taken out frozen thoroughly then ? —Oh, no; it must pass from the outside to the inside. 95. We had it in evidence here that the sheep were frequently frozen to within only half an inch of the outside, and then it was perfectly soft and not subject to any thaw at all ?—The only case I have seen of that sort was in Sydney sheep, which were very thin on the flanks and very difficult to freeze at all. You may freeze a Sydney sheep of not more than 401b. or 501b. and you may never get the flank hard ; it will not freeze. But here the sheep are very different. We have never had that trouble with New Zealand sheep. 95a. Would you be surprised to learn that it was stated in evidence that sheep were sometimes sent in sailing-ships, and were frozen only forty-eight hours, and were sent Home in good condition ? Yes, I think it is possible. 96. Hon. Mr. Bichardson.] What ships have you been on?—ln the "Duke of Buckingham," in the " Otarama," " Tongariro," " Aorangi," and the " Mataura "; five ships. 97. You have stated that you keep the temperature down in accordance with your instructions. Is there any cheek upon that ? Who takes the temperature beside yourself ?— The captain of the ship. 98. And the captain of the ship, does he see it is properly entered in the log ?—Yes; he sees the log every day. 99. That is in addition to any temperature-taking by the refrigerating engineers ?—Yes. 100. You said a good deal about receiving soft sheep on board these ships. I want to know whether you have been in any where you have been called upon, whether from hurry or any other purpose, to take a considerable number of sheep that you have considered not properly frozen ? — Oh, no ; I have not been called upon to do that. 101. If there were Government inspection at the ship, would that delay your work ? —No, provided it could be carried on apart from the taking in of the cargo. Unless they made it an obstruction and said, " Stop in the shoot with that sheep, and we will open it and inspect it." But if they take it aside there is no delay whatever. 102. Then they need not delay more than the delay caused by your own inspection ? —That is so. 103. Hon. Mr. Johnston.] Have you ever known of a case where sheep rejected by one vessel have been promptly taken by another loading alongside it ?—No, I have never known that. 104. Mr. McLachlan.] Is it the duty of the engineer himself to watch the thermometers ?—lt is his duty to watch the thermometers. He has to see that the temperature is kept right ; and the chief engineer with the chief refrigerator make a daily inspection of that and record it in the logs. The captain of the ship goes with them so that there should be no difference of opinion or difference of temperature. 105. Mr. Buchanan.] Are you aware that in some cases the arrangements are such as permit the thermometers that they use in the hold to get frozen up so that they are unable to examine them? —Yes, I have known cases of that sort, but not for long, because I got them shifted and put another one down. Sometimes the water trickles down the iron from the deck to the thermometer and freezes. The thing is to get into the trunks and get out that thermometer and put in another. It is always possible to do that. 106. How many carcases will the ship you are now in charge of carry ?—Ninety-six thousand. 107. In the event of doubtful sheep being offered you to be taken in amongst such a number as that, would you consider yourself justified in passing them ?—I should not be right in passing one. I cannot carry that out; if Idoitit is against my own interest. If I see a sheep slightly softened in the flank I can put it aside. If I send it back it will only be frozen up again and returned to me. 108. Supposing you examined not one in fifty, but one in twenty, would you not be able to satisfy yourself by such a course that the sheep as a whole were in thoroughly sound condition ?— I should say I should; but independent of that lam not able to tell. You cannot guarantee because you look at one in twenty that the other nineteen are good. 109. Mr. Duncan.] With regard to that black spot; it is generally found in the back you say. Is it not possible that might be caused by bruises ?—I do not see where it is possible to be caused by bruises at all. 110. Previous to killing ? —Oh, Ido not say then; but lam of opinion it is in the blood. Lambs especially are very prone to that. If the black spots are not there the matter is that forms the black spots. 111. Would you think it would be a guide if in the freezing-works the date when the sheep were received were stamped on it ?—Yes ; more especially if you could stamp the date when it was put into the freezer.

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112. That would be a pretty good guide ?—I think it would be a very good guide. 113. Mr. Buchanan.] Is there space usually left between the sheep and the top of the chamber?— Yes. 114. Is the snow cleared from the outside of the trunks ? —The snow is cleared from the trunks into the engine-room. 115. Mr. Flatman.] Do you think it possible the black spot would be developed if the sheep •were kept at a regular temperature ? —Yes; lam quite certain the sheep develop spots even with a temperature of 15°. I have kept the hold in splendid condition, and have fully anticipated putting out the sheep in splendid order, which is a matter of £50 to me if I do not, and I have gone Home and had spotted sheep when I never anticipated anything. Mr. T. F. Eotheeam examined. Mr. T. F. Botheram, Locomotive Superintendent of New Zealand Eailways, speaking of the carriage of frozen meat from the works to the ship, said : We have had the freezing-trucks in operation about fourteen years, and I have never myself had any complaint about them as to their insulation or the manner of construction in any shape or form, or as to any of the details about them; and neither have I had any complaint of damage to the frozen sheep or frozen meat of any description. The trucks are built on good principles, and are certainly as good as any you will get in Australia, which is a warmer climate. Quite recently Mr. Gilbert Anderson, of the Christchurch Meat Company, made a complaint to the department, which consisted of general statements, and amongst these, that the meat was damaged in transit, first of all by the defective construction of the trucks, and also by delay in delivery from the works to the port. That letter was replied to, and then he wrote a further letter, still maintaining that the reply only confirmed his former statements. It was then determined that I should go to Christchurch and meet Mr. Anderson, and ascertain if there was any difficulty about the trucks. I might mention, before going further, that one of the difficulties that he pointed specially to was that the trucks were not kept so white as they ought to be. That was accounted for by their having to run through the tunnel, and, of course, they were blackened quickly. But he pointed out that they were not painted. That was not so; it was simply that the paint was discoloured by the smoke. I went to Christchurch, and made myself known to Mr. Anderson, and in the course of conversation with him I said, " I have come to see you principally about the trucks, but I shall be. willing to discuss anything else on the matter with you." Mr. Anderson then said to me, "We have got nothing to complain about so far as the trucks are concerned." After some conversation I arranged a meeting with himself and the Traffic Manager in Christchurch, and he then repeated his statement that there was nothing to complain about in the trucks. However, he said afterwards, in the course of conversation, that there had been one or two minor difficulties— for instance, the screwing-up of the doors. I asked him to enumerate them, and then he said his works-people had complained. I said, " Well, we will go out to the works" ; and on my seeing Mr. Leslie, their works manager, Mr. Anderson said, " What is wrong with these trucks? " Mr, Leslie replied, "There is nothing wrong with them, only the way they give them to us and take them away." So, after trying to get out of them whether there was anything really wrong, the only thing I could find out was that the door at some time or other had been badly fitted. If the trucks had badly-fitting doors the company had no right to put their frozen sheep into them : they should have simply sent the trucks away. I arranged with the works manager at Islington that if there was any small difficulty at any time he could at once write a note to the Car and Wagon Inspector at Christchurch, and the truck would be taken off the line and put right. Then they brought up the point that they were not loading the truck to its full height—they were leaving a tier out; they could fully load at Timaru but not at Islington. At Timaru they load in a chamber. They can shut the truck in and load direct from the stores into the truck. And the temperature is very low. At Islington they load out in the open, and the sheep are passed down a slide covered with corrugated iron. The company asked for some arrangement whereby cold air could be put into the truck after loading was finished. I pointed out to them that thirteen years ago we had an arrangement in all the trucks whereby the companies could either freeze down the truck or, after they had loaded up, they could put cold air in. They thought they would use it; and, after a good deal of conversation, I agreed to put in a cock at each end of the truck, whereby they could couple up their cold pipes and put cold air into the truck after it was screwed up. My own opinion is that they will not do it. It was a fad a few years ago, and one or two of the companies did it, and after that it was given up. Then, in reference to the colour of the trucks : I painted them white, on account of that colour being one of the best to withstand heat. They go through the tunnel, and the gases and the steam so impregnate the paint that ordinary water will not fetch it off. We even varnished some of the trucks after painting them white, and even then water alone will not fetch the dirt off. You can get it off by using hydrochloric acid or pumice-soap, but that takes a great deal of time ; and when a ship is loading you have to keep the trucks running freely to get through the work. Of course, you can tell the trucks are white, but not so white as they would be if there was no tunnel, which makes the difference to the colour of the trucks. It may be of some interest to you to know that we have got twenty-four bogie trucks and forty-four wheel trucks on the Hurunui-Bluff Eailway. 116. A question was asked, Had the department ever asked some of the companies to provide their own trucks?— Yes; in 1889 Messrs. Nelson Brothers provided seven, and in 1891 they provided another one, making eight altogether. They were so satisfied with the trucks that I had designed that they gave the department an order to build them. Again, in 1890, the Longburn Freezing Company started their business, and they were so satisfied with the trucks that they gave an order for seven, which they used regularly. These are the only trucks we have asked companies to provide. I may say we did not ask Longburn; the Manawatu Eailway Company, I presume, asked them.

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117. Hon. the Chairman.] Have you ever requested other companies?— No. [The witness here displayed a sectional plan of the trucks in question.] 118. Are the Government trucks uniform throughout now? —No. 119. Will you explain the difference ?—Since 1891 I have put slag-wool in the roof. Before that there was no slag-wool in. 120. And are the old trucks altered?— No. 121. Are they less secure ?—No, I think not. The Belfast Company prefer the old type of truck that was built before this type. They say their meat has turned out better. The Islington people say, No, they prefer this type. 122. Why were the Nelson Company called upon to provide trucks and other companies were not ?—So far as I am aware, it was a special business, and these trucks were of no value to anybody else but for that particular business. 123. Do they get any allowance?— Yes, Id. per mile both ways. 124. It is a mere matter of adjustment ?—Yes. 125. Is there any remedy for this blackening of the trucks that is complained of in Canterbury ? —I do not think so, unless they do away with the tunnel or burn Welsh coal. The cost of keeping them white would be excessive. The other day when I was down in Christchurch the Port train had been washed and was sent down, and when it came back out of the tunnel (it was a very bad day) you would think it had been running for a month. The day following I went down soon after the goods train, and you could see light through the tunnel. We could not get two trips out of the trucks if they were to be kept absolutely white. These trucks are very heavy (somebody said we were getting good revenue out of them). They weigh 9 tons 16cwt, and about £18,000 is the paying freight in them. 126 Hon. the Chairman.] You said in your evidence that it was the practice of one of the Canterbury establishments to leave the top row unloaded ?—Yes, that is at Islington, but only there. 127. Is that at their option?— Well, it only came out during my visit. 128. You found it detrimental?—l think it is. They said, if they put another tier in the flanks got & little soft by the time they got to the port. 129. Of course it reduced the earning of the truck?— Distinctly so. 130. Then you spoke of some arrangement with some of the establishments by which cold air was forced into the trucks after they were loaded to make them secure?— That was about thirteen or fourteen years ago, when we put on the cocks. They were used once or twice, but not afterwards, and so we took them off. 131. Was that necessary ? —No. 132. Would it be advantageous in long transit, or even in the case of long detention, if the trucks were filled up with cold air before they started?—l do not think so. If the meat is taken from the storage chambers in a proper manner, and not out in the blazing sun, there would not be the slightest necessity for it. 133. Mr. Buchanan.] Are you aware that the ships leave an empty space on top because of the reason alleged by Mr. Anderson, namely, that if they loaded the ship right up the top tier was apt to get damaged ? —I am not aware of that. 134. Have you ascertained from the recognised scientific authorities—Professor Tyndall, for instance, on " Heat " —the enormous difference there is in the absorption of heat where the surface is black or white? —There is a difference. 135. Are you aware the difference is enormous?—lf it is enormous you would have to know the conditions. I know precisely the conditions of these freezing-trucks by experiment, but I could not call the difference in transmission enormous. 136. What I mean is, the rate at which a black surface absorbs heat as compared with a white surface ?—lt is very much quicker. The white surface will throw off the heat. 137. Or, rather, fail to absorb it so quickly ?—Yes. 138. Of course, it is a matter of importance to the freezing companies that the surface should, if possible, be kept white?— Yes, that was the intention. 139. Have you thought of the possibility of using some cheap soft substance, such as strong calico, for a temporary cover, which could be easily washed with a bleaching material ? —Calico would absorb the sulphur and the gases in the tunnel very quickly. 140. Mr. Flatman.] You heard Mr. Anderson's evidence. Will you explain to the Committee what his complaint refers to as to the air-space in the trucks being detrimental to the meat ? —He referred to the air in the outside division of the trucks. He pointed out that there was nothing to complain about in the trucks. Mr. Anderson complained about it in a letter to the railway authorities, but he had nothing to complain about to me over it. The only air-space he can mean is the air-space in the sides. 141. You said that the Belfast Company preferred the old type of truck, and Islington the new type of truck. What reasons do they give for this difference of opinion ?—Belfast said their meat turned out always perfectly good from the old type of truck; also, Belfast have some turntables, and only the old type of truck is available for these. Islington, on the other hand, said any damage they had from rejections from the ships occurred in the old trucks. 142. You said they did not put the top tier into the trucks, and that the flanks of the carcases got soft in going to port. Which tier did you speak of where the flanks got soft ?—-The top tier. 143. And you have spoken of the smoke in the tunnel. Have not the department some method which they anticipate testing soon to reduce in some measure, probably, the nuisance of smoke in tunnels? —I am not aware of it. 144. Mr. McLachlan.] Have you ever tried the white enamel? Would that be more easily cashed than the ordinary paint?—l have tried white-enamel paint.

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145. Was that not a success ? —No; the enamel paint and the white-zinc paint and the varnish all absorb the sulphur and gases in the tunnel. 146. Are you making any arrangement to give the companies a sufficient supply of trucks ?—I do not know what is being done in that way. 147. Mr. Buchanan.) Would you consider the possibility of using some spring blind that could be drawn down when the truck was going through the tunnel with scarcely any labour at all?—It would have to be an absolutely close fit, because the gases and steam get everywhere unless it is perfectly tight. Mr. Millwabd examined. Mr. Millward, of the Gear Meat-preserving Company, Wellington, said : To begin with the railage : This is a matter of adjustment of the rates between the frozen and the live sheep. The basis must always be retained in the same proportion, otherwise, if a reduction is made in one it will bring it below the relative rate for the other. And there will, of course, be petitions from the people trucking live sheep, the carrying rate for which is a far much more important matter to the colony, because there are not only a greater number of sheep trucked alive, but the bulk of the store sheep are carried about the different parts of the country on the railways. In this connection the Wellington companies have to complain about there being no through rate over the Manawatu Eailway. The railage from the West Coast for 150 miles to Wellington is 5-J-d. per sheep more, and from Plawke's Bay it is 6Jd. more, than it would be for a straight run over one line, owing to the two terminal charges, and a higher rate on the private line. This is a handicap to the Wellington companies that no others have. The next point is in reference to damage. This is undoubtedly a very serious thing. It is not only the direct loss, but it is the indirect one, inasmuch as the damaged meat must be sold immediately, consequently the sound has to be kept back. As the sheep come out of the hold, and are found to be damaged, the underwriters' adjuster and the consignees' representative assess the amount of damage. The sheep are then enabled to be put on the market practically with a bonus on them, as it were, or at considerably less reserve than the sound ones, and thereby affect the price of the sound sheep. From what I can gather there is no evidence whatever that any damage has been done in the trucks, and from examination of the trucks I should say it was impossible that damage could take place in them during the lapse of time specified if the sheep were sufficiently frozen and the trucks perfectly air-tight. The evidence so far given shows that the damage mostly occurs in the sheep frozen during the New Zealand summer, which gives a clue that probably they have been trying to do more than their machinery is capable of doing, because the whole thing is in the freezing. We have heard different theories about the time it takes to freeze. One witness has stated he could kill and freeze sheep in an hour, which, of course, is ridiculous. Another said two days. When any freezing-man talks about freezing, I presumes he means freezing commercially and properly. The question is, Does it pay to freeze in two days ? Our own method is to keep the sheep hanging in the freezing-rooms for three days and bring them down to a very low temperature, and then to stow them away in the store-room and keep them at from 10 deg. to 15 deg. A great deal of damage occurs to the sheep in the way of moulding and spotting. A sheep may be perfectly hard on the outside, and yet not contain any reserve of cold, but rather a quantity of latent heat, which, when they are stowed in the ship's chamber, is given off. They are packed so closely that the engines are not capable of drawing it away ; but if they were properly frozen, with a sufficient reserve of cold, the ships would not have to do the work they have. In a great many instances you will see that temperatures are really no test in regard to the cooling-down of ships. For instance, you can withdraw all the warm air out of the hold and put in cold air in a very short space of time, and consequently bring down the thermometer. If you, however, cease working the engine for any length of time the temperature would rise very rapidly, as the heat has not been abstracted from the insulation, and the result would be the mutton would come out damaged. So far as " bone-stink " is concerned, Mr. Waymouth has a theory that it is clover, or tupping, or some other similar cause. We have no experience of such in Wellington, and we could undertake to freeze any number of sheep without such a contingency as bone-stink arising. One matter, from the English purchasers' standpoint, is important—that is, that the longer a sheep hangs about in the cooling process the riper it becomes, and the less life is left in it when it has thawed out. A sheep has a certain lasting-time before it becomes over-ripe and begins to decompose. If you take up all that time in the freezing process, then when it gets Home it will begin to decompose very rapidly after being thawedout. If we exhaust the whole period before we actually suspend decomposition, then it cannot have it at this end and at the other end also. We have heard something with reference to a London sorting-store and barges. To have a London store would undoubtedly be a very heavy charge. We have had a good deal of meat carried in the barges, and find them infinitely preferable to any other method. Instead of the meat being discharged and left in the sun waiting to be taken away by carts, it is sent down a shoot into the barges through a small aperture, and is immediately out of the heat, and when the barges are full there is sufficient cold in the sheep to keep them frozen hard for two days. Having a conversation with Mr. Gear the other day, he told me that he happened to be in London when the first barge was used. He saw the sheep shot into it on a Saturday afternoon and taken out again quite hard on the Monday. They were in an infinitely better condition than those carted from the docks to Smithfield. Even if you had a sorting-store you could not do away with the twelve miles of cartage to Smithfield. The extract of a letter from Lloyd's produced by Mr. Nelson showed that the barges had nothing whatever to do with the condition of the meat, As to the policy of insurance, one or two have given it in evidence that it would be advisable to have the cover for the sixty days after discharge done away with. I think this cover a very great convenience, as many small consignments may all be disposed of in that time, and it suits the company's trade admirably. It also saves any division of responsibility, as the policy goes right through to a certain point, whereas if the liability ended with the discharge at the ship there would

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be an interregnum and thereby a possibility of dispute as to where the damage had arisen. With reference to the freezing charges, we have had it given in evidence that the Christchurch Companies' charge is equivalent to 9d. a sheep, of which 3d. is for the bag, bringing it down to 6d.; 2fd. is paid for railage, leaving 3-J-d. Out of that the killing alone is about 2Jd. (£1 per hundred). This leaves Id. for the handling in and out of the works, coal, engineers' wages, &c. This work certainly could not be done for a penny or anything like that figure. This charge, however, is only made in a certain period of the year—namely, during part of the winter season. The difference between the North Island and the South Island is that in the latter they get eleven months' constant work in the year, and we in the North Island do not get six full months. Just to show the bearing this has on the charges, I will quote from the two balance-sheets. The Canterbury Frozen Meat and Dairy Produce Export Company's balancesheet, 29th February, 1896, showed property, plant, buildings, &c, to be £58,379 capital expenditure invested; whereas the Gear Company's balance-sheet at the end of November, 1895, showed we had £64,697 invested under the same heads, &c. Mr. Waymouth has given it in his evidence that they froze 484,000 sheep and lambs with that property and plant. We froze under 200,000 sheep, &c. While we have a capital and plant capable of dealing with the same quantity as the Canterbury Company, it has to stand idle six months in the year. A large amount of our business is boiling-down. Altogether we kill 400,000 sheep and cattle, but the Canterbury Company killed 559,277 animals last year. Part of the difference is, no doubt, in the value of our land, which, being in a borough, is more valuable ; but the real crux is that they have constant work, whereas we are only fully occupied for about four or five months in the summer. Eeferring again to the damage to sheep discovered when discharged in London, the Government Produce Inspector there has given it in his report that Lyttelton is responsible for most of the damage [see statement put in]. There has has been a question asked one or two of the witnesses with reference to Government grading. Well, I presume that if a Bill be brought in on that subject we shall have an opportunity of expressing our opinion upon it later on, so it will probably not be worth my while saying anything about it at the present time. As bearing on what I have said about bone-stink and damage, the Gear Company started an insurance fund of its own in 1888, and since that date we have taken risks of about. £3,000 in every bottom that we have had sheep in. Outside claims for jettison and general average (we have had two or three heavy claims where ships got ashore), our fund has only had to pay under £200 during that period. You can readily understand that the bulk of that might have been caused by contact with sheep that had not been properly frozen from other parts of the colony. 148. Hon. the Chairman.'] First as to railage: I understood you to say that in the North Island they would be satisfied if the rates were kept equal as between frozen and live stock ?—Yes ; I understand that at the present time the rates are relatively proportionate, but we are handicapped in our district through the Manawatu Railway. If the rates on frozen sheep are reduced, then the rates on live sheep must necessarily follow and be reduced also, otherwise there are up-country works which would be in a position to compete with those at the port in that way. 149. Do I understand the Manawatu Eailway charges are high because of two terminal charges ? —Partly through the two terminal charges, but in addition to that, when the Government reduced the rate about a year ago by about 25 per cent, the Manawatu Eailway Company declined to reduce theirs to the same figure, and they stated, if pressure were put upon them to compel them to do so, they would make the consignors tranship into their trucks at Longburn, and cause an infinite amount of trouble. 150. What is about the quantity of sheep that come down by the Manawatu Eailway Company? —Eight down to Wellington ? Between 300,000 and 350,000 a year. • 151. That is a very considerable part of the whole produce ?—Yes. You see the railage from Wanganui, say, comes to about Is. sd. or Is. 6d., and having to pay that sum on an inferior sheep for boiling-down purposes practically kills the business. If we could get one long-distance rate of 150 miles, it would make a difference of about s£d. on the Wanganui side and 6Jd. on the Hawke's Bay side. 152. That is, supposing the Manawatu rate were brought to an equality with the Government rate?—lf it were brought to a level with the rate for long distances, and no terminal charge. 153. That would mean a very large amount in the year ? —A very large amount. 154. Can you roughly state what it would come to ?—lt is worth putting on record. Between £4,000 and £5,000 a year. 155. Is it a fact that on the average the freight charged for dead sheep is less than for live sheep ?—I could not say that. lam not interested in the rate for frozen sheep. If such were the case you can readily see the effect it would have; it would put the up-country works at an advantage as compared with those down at the port. 156. Under the heading of shipping, you said something about damage being assessed at so-much. I did not follow that clearly?— What I intended to say was, when the ships are being discharged in London the insurance surveyor is at the hatch, and as the meat comes out he, together with the representative of the consignee, makes an allowance of so much a stone on each damaged sheep. After this is agreed to, the meat goes to the market forthwith, and the consignee, having that Id. or 2d. a stone in hand, has that practically as a bonus, and is enabled to put that damaged sheep on the market at a price which stops the sale on sound meat for the time being. 157. It does not apply to the cargo at all ?—The policy applies to every sheep individually, 158. I understood you to say that the damage, in your opinioD, had not happened in the trucks ?—From what I have seen of the trucks, I should say most decidedly that, given that the trucks are air-tight and that the sheep are frozen down to a sufficiently low level right through, not merely case-hardened, no damage can arise.

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159. What would be the consequence of a long detention—we will say, like the detention that would ensue if thirty trucks had to be loaded as a condition of the railway taking the meat: that would cause detention : what effect would that have on the meat ? —lt would raise the temperature slightly, but there ought to be a sufficient reserve of cold air in the sheep to stand all that. This is borne out practically by Mr. Nelson's evidence, where he stated he had taken his trucks from Woodville, a distance of nearly a hundred miles, in a very hot climate ; and, furthermore, at Gisborne, his barges in which the meat is carried to the steamers are merely insulated, and they have to traverse a distance up the river and across the bar to the roadstead. I believe Mr. Anderson did say the air-spaces in some of the trucks were not tight. Dead-air space has been found to be the best possible insulation—that is, there must be no circulation of air. 160. Then you think that the damage, as a rule, does not take place in the trucks and in transit ?—No, not in transit. 161. Transit from the works to the ship ? —No. 162. What time are you of opinion it is necessary for the sheep to be in the freezing-chamber before it is fit to be moved after it goes there—how long ?—Three days in the freezing-chamber, and then afterwards stowed away in the store-room. 163. How long? —Another two days ; and, furthermore, the temperature should be low in the freezing-chamber when the sheep are put in, because freezing is practically a total suspension of decomposition, and this decomposition is not totally suspended until the sheep is frozen through. 164. Can you say there is uniformity in practice in this matter among the different freezing companies in the colony ?—ln the North Island there is. 165. But, as far as the evidence goes, not so in the South ?—I do not think so. We could freeze in less time, but it would not be what I call commercial freezing. That is, it would not be found to be the most profitable or economical way of doing it. 166. You gave some evidence about bone-stink. Is not that caused mainly or entirely by the heated condition of the meat at the time of freezing?—lt might be, and it might not. If sheep are killed too quickly after trucking or driving, you can readily understand that round about the cupbone there will be a little inflammation ; but if the sheep have been sufficiently spelled, and had water to drink and other opportunities of cooling down, that would be done away with. But bone-stink is mostly made by bad freezing, by keeping sheep hanging about, and not putting them soon enough after they are killed into a room at a low temperature. If you put a sheep into a freezing-chamber, it does not necessarily mean that it is being frozen—the temperature might be too high to do it any good. Boue-stink, as the Committee can understand, is one of those insidious causes of damage that cannot possibly arise on board ship. The carcase on the outside may be perfectly firm, good, and bright. It is only when you come to cut it up that the stink is discovered. And that is where the damage is done to the trade at Home, because the appearance is absolutely misleading. 167. Would not the marking of the sheep with the date of going into the chamber be a considerable safeguard, by fixing the time they have been under treatment ?—lt is not necessary. We have a series of rooms which we fill up in rotation. Every room or series of rooms will hold a day's work, then that is left for three days. The time occupied may mean nothing, as the temperature may not be sufficiently low. 168. But, supposing it was decided there should be inspection, and then marking would be a certain guide to the Inspector ? —lt would be a guide to the Inspector. In any case he could see a particular room filled one day and not touched for three days; the next room filled the next day, and so on. 169. And so the branding would not be necessary ? —lt would be a nuisance to carry out, without being of any value. The fact of the date being on the meat might also have a bad effect when it reaches London; people might object to buy it, because it may appear to have been frozen such a length of time. 170. Would not inspection insure to a certain extent, as far as it could be done, uniformity in the condition of the meat when it leaves the works ?—Government inspection ? Yes, it might do that. 171. And it need not be very costly? —No; but the question is how far the inspection would go. 172. Would it be preferable to have inspection at the works, or on board the ship when the meat passes in? Would it be practicable and efficient? —Yes, it would be practicable; but a suggestion I think Mr. Flatman made a day or two ago, about supervisors travelling with the ships, would be a better thing still. 173. There you are speaking of the transit; that is another point. But the point now is to fix the condition of the meat when it leaves the colony ? —The examination at the ship's side would be better than examination at the works, as the meat has to travel over rail, &c, before reaching the ship. 174. But can it be done thoroughly ?—lt could be done down the ships' hold. A thermometer might be occasionally put into every different lot of sheep, say right into the thick part of the leg. 175. And that would not delay the shipments materially ?—No ; it should not be put into too many legs. The effect of putting the thermometer there might cause a mark from which, when the thawing took place, a little bloody water might run. 176. Hon. the Chairman.] It has been suggested to me that it might be done in the hold. If the inspector got down there it could be done all right, could it not ? —lf the inspection was done on the wharf shippers might say it was causing delay; but inspection in the hold would cause no delay at all.

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177. And the sheep could be put out again without any detriment?— Yes. If they were examined at the works there would still be the complaint about the trucks. 178. You heard the last witness's evidence about the condition of sheep received by the vessel, and that practically he, as a matter of practice, took sheep that were really not in fit condition ? —lf such is the case, it is very unfair to those shippers who do justice to the sheep. If we put our sheep into the chamber and bring them to the ship with 10 deg. right through, and another shipper puts some in at about 10 deg. on the outside and 20 deg. inside, the last lot of sheep are going to rob ours. 179. Is it not true that, to have a proper article, you must have inspection ?—That may be; but at the inception of the trade people were more careful, although less was known about it at that time, and consequently there was little damage. 180. Now, as to the damaged meat arriving in London : Are you of opinion, from your reports and what you know, that a considerable amount of the damage is caused by the treatment of the meat on its arrival in London at the docks?—A great deal of damage is caused that way. 181. Have you any suggestions to make as to how that cau be remedied ?—I have not. The starting of a sorting-store that has been spoken of is not, to my mind, an efficient way of getting rid of it. Barges, I consider, are the best way of dealing with the meat when it comes out of the hold. The ships' hatches are large hatches, but in a barge the hatch is not more than a manhole, so to speak, and the sheep is at once shot out of the influence of the sun's rays. Even if there were a storing-shed at the dock, it does not get rid of the cartage to Smithfield, and a great deal of damage is done in that way. When they get to Smithfield the wrappers are frequently undoubtedly moist; then they probably go into a store there, and this is liable to cause mildew and spotting. 182. Would there be any objection, in testing the sheep on opening the vessel, to cutting the sheep-wraps for purposes of examination?— They need not be cut; they could be undone. 183. They could be undone very easily?— Very easily. 184. There would be no necessity to damage them ?—No. 185. If they did, it would not affect the value of the sheep ? —No. 186. Is there not a consensus of opinion among the companies who are shipping as to some means of dealing with this London difficulty, this want of care ?—I think, if the Government Inspector pays the attention to it he has done at starting a great deal of good will ensue. In London the men do not work in the steamers' holds when the engines are going. 187. Mr. Fraser.] In London ? The evidence of the engineer was in direct opposition to that. He said that they would work there, and not here ? —They will not work in the steamers here, but they do in our hulk, and lam told that in London they would not do it either. At any rate, the temperatures could not get up as high as the Government Inspector says they do if the men worked while the machinery was going. 188. Is it true that there are particular ships in the line that are unsuccessful in the carriage of their meat ?—Yes. 189. Are not these ships gradually being refused cargoes ?—Several people have declined to ship by them. 190. But do they fill up ?—They still fill up, for all that. 191. Are there any grounds for believing that certain ships have not satisfactory appliances as compared with other ships?— The engines are all right, but the insulation may have got out of order. They get them surveyed periodically. 192. Where does that survey take place ?—I believe an engineer in Wellington examines most of the ships. For our own part, our man goes and examines, but that is for our private information only. 193. Hon. the Chairman.'] You talk about the charges : you tell us the Canterbury charge. What is the average North Island charge for freezing?—f-d. per pound. 193 a. What does that come to as against the 9d. of Canterbury ? —ln Canterbury that 9d. is the charge only for about two months in the year. Their general charge is Jd. The difference between Canterbury and the North Island is £d. per pound, and that amounts to about 7fd. a carcase. 194. And that is caused mainly by having the continual work in the one case? —Yes; at the present moment it would, unfortunately, pay us better to shut down than to be working as we are. Last month only 3,500 sheep were frozen. But to shut down would be an injustice to the farmers who have sheep on the turnips. We like to encourage the feeding of sheep on turnips, and hope the industry will grow to a much greater extent. 195. You have heard it said that the Belfast and Islington works pay an average of 2|-d. for frozen sheep. Can you get live sheep railed for such a price ?—lt would not be worth while trucking sheep for such a short distance as thirteen miles. 196. Mr. Flatman.] You were speaking of bone-stink. Where, in your opinion, does the damage occur, and how do you account for it ?—Bone-stink certainly occurs at the works. 197. And not on the ship?—lt could not possibly arise on the ship. A carcase with bonestink may be beautifully bright and clean on the outside, and to all intents and purposes a thoroughly frozen sheep; the bone-stink is frozen in it. It would not be accessible to view or smell until the sheep was cut down or thawed out. 198. It would not occur in the trucks, then, if not in the ships?— No. Any damage after freezing would leave traces on the outside. It is utterly impossible to say whether a sheep has got bone-stink or not until it has been cut into or thawed out. 199. Is it your opinion that it is frequently noticed that the bottom tier of the cargoes is landed in a worse condition than those above it ?—That would be from the hold having been frozen down for an insufficient length of time before being loaded. You can easily understand that you can readily cool down the atmosphere in a hold, but it is a matter of time to extract the heat from the insulation. When sheep are stowed at the bottom under such circumstances, and the engine is stopped for loading purposes, heat would be absorbed by the sheep.

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200. Then it might probably, in the first instance, be the meat being insufficiently frozen ?— That would help it, of course. 201. And also be due to the latent heat both in the carcases and also in the walls of the ship? —Yes ; but if it was through insufficient freezing of the sheep it would be right through the block, not just at the bottom. 202. You use a hulk for freezing, I believe. After discharging your hulk, how long do you allow for freezing the interior of your hulk ?—We only overhaul the hulk once a year, and after that we generally freeze it for about five days. It is kept under frost all the remainder of the time. 203. I believe you have told us the difference between your price and the prices of Belfast and Islington for freezing?— Their rate for the bulk of the year is Jd., and ours fd. 204. You were speaking of an adjustment in the discharges in London in the averaging. In some instances, I suppose you mean, to average damaged cargo would be beneficial to the owner ?— Ido not think so. I think the men on both sides are sufficiently expert to say at once the amount of the damage. 205. In some instances it might be beneficial to the owners and in other cases otherwise ?—I do not think either party would be benefited to any great extent. 206. Can you tell us whether the carcase freezes from the outside to the inside, or from the inside to the outside ? —From the outside to the inside. You can have it 10 deg. or less on the outside and 20 deg. in the inside. 207. Do you think it possible to freeze mutton harder than is good for the meat ? If you keep it, we will say, at 10 deg. a longer time than is necessary, would it be possible to freeze that mutton harder than is good for it ?—I do not think that would happen at 10 deg. There is such a thing as freezing it too much, but that does not happen so much with mutton as with beef. The fibres are finer in mutton. 208. I understand your claims on the insurance companies since 1888 fell short of £200 ?— On our own fund, I said, We have an insurance fund of our own. 209. You do not insure with any company?—We only insure excesses with an insurance company. • 210. You have spoken of the cost for railing boiling-sheep as being about Is. sd. or Is. 6d. What would it cost to drive them by the road ?—lt would only cost about Bd.; not that, probably. But when you are talking of driving you must remember there is a certain amount of waste which is practically part of the cost of driving. You could not drive sheep about 150 miles without wasting part of the fat. If you are talking of the very worst class, they might not be able to travel 150 miles. 211. Do you freeze sheep wholly on your own account?—No; we also freeze for clients. 212. Do you ship any second quality of mutton which you specially brand as second quality? —No; we ship no ewes at all. 213. Not maiden ewes ? —We ship maiden ewes, but then there is a very small quantity of those. The wethers, of course, we grade in weights. But what people call a second-class weight may really be a very prime sheep. I consider our North Island prime sheep to be a heavier weight than the prime sheep of the South Island. They have larger frames. 214. Mr. Buchanan.] You have spoken of the extra railway freight paid by the freezing companies to Wellington upon sheep from the West Coast and Napier districts owing to two terminal charges. Who in reality pays that extra freight, the freezing company or the producer ?—The settler. It is not only the terminal charges. The Manawatu Railway did not reduce their rates at the time the Government did. 215. If sufficient care was exercised by the shipping companies in refusing to receive all sheep imperfectly frozen, would they be able effectively to put a stop to any imperfect freezing by the freezing companies ? —A sheep might be thoroughly case-hardened, and I do not see how they could arrive at how the inside of that sheep was. If the sheep is thoroughly frozen right through to a low degree it has a reserve of cold in it. If it was case-hardened, Ido not see how the engineers could ascertain the inside condition, except by knowing the temperature and the length of time it had been kept at that temperature. 216. It has been said in evidence that by proper trial of the legs of the sheep you can tell absolutely whether that sheep is frozen right through or not. Would you state your opinion on that point ? —That is the best way of trying the sheep; but, still, it would not detect bone-stink. 217. Would you not be able at once to detect ?—lt depends on the method you have of freezing. By the Haslem process the sheep freeze in the shoulders first. In the Hall process, and other pipe systems, they freeze in the legs first. 218. How does that arise ? —lt arises from the cold being all given off from the pipes, and going right through the sheep, and meeting first of all the thickest part of the sheep. 219. This is a very important point. Supposing a ship, for instance, being in doubt as to a parcel of sheep, instead of severely trying one in twenty, or any smaller number, could they not completely satisfy themselves and detect at once whether the particular parcel of sheep was frozen in a proper manner ? —I think so, excluding bone-stink. 220. Is it in their power under the arrangements with the freezing companies to reject those sheep?— Our arrangement with the shipping companies is that no sheep should be taken unless they are properly frozen. 221. Am I right in thinking that your opinion is that the ships have no right to complain of the freezing companies if they fail to exercise sufficient care in rejecting imperfectly frozen sheep? —Yes. 222. You referred to the barges in the Thames. Are you aware whether these barges are insulated, and, if so, in what way?— Nelson's barges are insulated. 9—l. 9.

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223. As to the sides and bottoms of the barges as well as the deck?—l think they are now. 224. Supposing I spoke of four years ago ? —I could not say. But I mentioned in evidence that I was having a conversation with Mr. Gear recently. He was in London when the first barge was taken up. It was loaded at the docks on the Saturday afternoon during the summer weather. It was then taken up the river and discharged on the Monday morning, and all the sheep came out in thoroughly good condition. 225. Ido not wish to speak of Nelson's barges in particular; but would you be surprised to know that four years ago, when I was at Home, numbers of these barges were insulated only as to the deck?—No, not at all surprised. They considered then that the water was sufficient insulation. Of course, as a matter of fact, the greatest heat would be on the deck. 226. Would you be surprised to hear that in discharging into these barges some of them are detained for three days from the impossibility of getting a full cargo of the particular mark they are waiting for ?—Yes, but I should think that not many of them are so detained. Ido not see why they should be if the dock companies give the facilities they ought. You are well aware the dock companies do not like this barge business, and that very recently they have been trying to get clauses into the bills of lading that will enable them to practically kill that system. At present the barges do not pay tolls to the same extent as cargo that goes over the ship's sides to the docks. 227. Supposing arrangements were made by which the ship could discharge into a large freezing warehouse by means of machinery—endless-chain machinery, and so forth, so common in America—at a minimum of expense, and there sorted out (I mean in the warehouse), would not that plan be preferable to piecemeal discharging—part into barges, part into drays, and part into the dock companies' warehouses?—lt would be for those going over the ship's side on shore ; for those going into barges it would be an additional expense and extra handling. But that would not get over the difficulty of carting to Smithfield. Driving to Smithfield is conducted in a very loose way, and a great deal of damage is often done. 228. That is often done at night ?—Yes; but there are very muggy nights at Home. 229. We have had it stated in evidence that the ship is responsible after discharging the meat into the barges. Are you aware whether that is so or not ?—I do not see how it can be :as soon as it goes over the ship's side her responsibility ceases. The insurance people are responsible, and I was saying it was a good thing they were. Mr. Eraser : Ido not think that was quite stated in evidence. It was stated that if any damage occurred the engineer was blamed. I gather that he is only technically liable for damage that arises in the ship's hold. The inspectors assess the damage at the ship. The ships may get part of their bad name from the handling at the docks. 230. Mr. Eraser?\ There was a remark you made about the carriage of live and dead sheep on the railways. Did I understand you to say that live sheep should be carried at less charge than dead sheep?—l said that both rates should be equivalent. 231. Then you would think, in a case where live sheep are being carried at a much cheaper rate than dead sheep, that it should be altered ?—Certainly, if that is the case. 232. Mr. McLachlan.] I understood you to say that you considered a very probable cause of the damage would be found in imperfect cooling of the ship's hold before the meat is taken in ?-— Where the sheep at the bottom of the ship .are found to be damaged. 233. You have been speaking of the low rates at which they manipulate sheep in Canterbury. Do you not take into account the perquisites they get ?—All the perquisites we get in Wellington are the tongue, kidneys, and runners. That is all. 234. You get the same as the Canterbury companies get ?—Mr. Anderson said something about fat: we do not get any fat. I think that must have been a mistake on his part. Here we get no fat at all. We get the tongue and the kidneys ; the latter are sometimes of so little value that we give them to the pigs. We also get the runners. 235. You consider that you ship your meat always in excellent condition. Do you have frequent damage on board ship ?—I cannot say that we have. We like to put our meat on board with a sufficient reserve of cold to stand as much as possible. We have had claims on account of jettison, &c. The " Coptic " and the " Mamari " went ashore, and threw overboard carcases which happened to be ours. 236. Does bone-stink ever occur in the works ?—Our company has never had any experience of bone-stink, but it can only occur at the works. 237. How much time should elapse before a carcase is put into a cool-chamber after slaughtering ?—The most economical way is to put the carcase in when it has reached its lowest atmospheric temperature. 238. At what temperature do you keep your freezing-chambers?—We put our sheep in when the temperature is at zero. We put them in the store-room at about 10 deg. 239. Have you made any test as to the progress of freezing after the sheep has been placed in the freezing-chamber ?—We have tested them at different times ; but all these tests are really of no value unless you take the different circumstances attaching thereto into consideration. A test in the summer and one in the winter might be entirely different, and a test when the rooms are full and when they are half-full are two different things. In all tests you must get the surrounding circumstances.

Thdesday, 27th August, 1896. —Hon. Mr. Obmond, Chairman. Mr. Thompson, continuing his evidence, said : With regard to the rates, our company wish me to bring before the notice of the Committee the fact that sheepskins are charged by rail a rate and a quarter. In the majority of cases the sheepskins when they are sent by rail are loaded and unloaded by the owners. They wish me to bring this before your notice, for they think that when the

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loading and unloading is done by the owner the quarter extra ought to be taken off. They also consider that the rate for tallow, a thing which does not take the least harm and is not perishable in any shape or form, and the loading and unloading of which is done in all cases by the owner, is a very heavy one. ■ 1. Hon. the Chairman.] What is it classed with?— The same as the meat and other high-rate products, Class C. Mr. Thompson: Of course, with regard to tallow, I need not point out to the Committee that the value of it at Home has gone down from year to year until within the last five years or so it must have gone down over 50 per cent., something like 55 per cent. 2. Mr. Wilson.] What is the present quotation ? —About £20 per ton for first quality; in fact, I question whether best tallow would bring that at the present moment. Mr. Thompson : And then with regard to vans. About twenty-five is the average number we have had in Southland. We have never had more than that at any time, and I find on looking over my papers that the money we paid for the carriage of frozen meat during last year gives a return of something like as near as possible £200 per van. And then, again, I would like to point out to the Committee that we wish to class both the frozen-meat rate and the dead-meat rate in our reductions. Ido not know whether I made myself quite clear about that. We rail a good deal of dead meat in Southland. Before it is frozen all our meat is railed from Wallacetown to the Bluff, and is frozen at the Bluff. It is railed dead. I believe it has been contended that the rates in the other colonies are not reduced for that distance, but I have a list showing the rates in New South Wales for fresh meat coming from the works inland to the different freezing works, and the reductions commence on short distances. It starts thus : Not exceeding fifteen miles, 10s. per 4-ton truck; sixteen to twenty-five miles, 12s. 6d. per 4-ton truck; twenty-six to thirty miles, 15s. per 4-ton truck; thirty-one to thirty-five miles, 17s. 6d. per 4-ton truck; thirty-six to forty-five miles, £1 2s. 6d. per 4-ton truck; forty-six to fifty-five miles, £1 7s. 6d. [See Appendix T.] That covers the distance as between Mataura and the Bluff. This gives a return of about 7s. per ton for fresh meat in New South Wales as against £1 2s. 6d., which is what we have to pay in New Zealand. With regard to Wallacetown, our distance is twenty-two miles, and we pay 11s. 10d. for the green meat; ths rate in New South Wales is 15s. for 4 tons. That is about 3s. 9d. per ton as against our 11s. 10d. Of course, if the price of meat depreciates in London as it has done ever since the inception of the trade, there cannot be the slightest doubt that, unless the Government make reductions in the rate, the frozenmeat industry will be crushed out of existence. It cannot go on. It is an utter impossibility for any competition to be carried on against these other colonies, independent of the differential rates in New Zealand. At any rate, in Southland we shall not be able to carry it on. Frozen meat has gone down in London year by year since the commencement of the trade, and there is no doubt the main cause of the depreciation has been the very excessive quantities of meat thrown into London by the other colonies—the Eiver Plate, Victoria, and New South Wales ; and it is only by these heavy reductions and concessions granted to the trade in those colonies that they are able to do it. Of course, there are other differential rates in the railway tariff with regard to products from the sheep in different parts of New Zealand. There are cheap rates granted to other places in New Zealand which we do not touch. Our company contend that if it can be done in one instance it ought to be done in another. In the short distance between the Ocean Beach works and the Bluff, wool, for instance, by class would be Is. per bale. The Railway Department carry wool from Ocean Beach at half-rate, 6d. They grant a rebate of Is. 6d. per ton on tallow, pelts, coal, and some other items, I think, for the same company. In comparing the dead-meat rate with the live-meat rate, I do not think I quite made myself clear the last time I was before the Committee, as to the relative cost of the two. In the live-sheep rate the charge, I think, comes out as near as possible to s'9d. per sheep—practically 6d. 3. Hon. the Chairman.] How far does that carry ?—Forty-nine miles. Mr. Thompson : Of course, that is for a sheep. With a lamb the cost is quite different :it is proportionately less. A lamb will almost be about 4d.; a little under, I think : 3'95d. it is. With a live sheep the Government have to carry the whole of the offal, and the tallow, and the skin. I estimate the weight of a dead sheep at 601b., which gives 7Jd. But our average for a sheep alone for the half-year I find is 571b. 4. Mr. Buchanan.] That works out to sfd. for a 561b. sheep ?—No ; 7d. Mr. Thompson : In addition to the 7d., you must bear in mind you have to add 0-3 d. for offal, and O-75d. for wool, and o'47d. for tallow. These are the actual figures, and they bring the sheep-rate up to within a fraction of BJd., as against 6d. for a living sheep. We are practically handicapped to the extent of the difference between 6d. and BJd. as against the other works in Southland. I mentioned, also, when I was before the Committee last time, that frozen and dead rabbits are carried at half-rate. I believe the reduction in the rate has enormously increased the business in rabbits in Southland. As regards frozen rabbits, it started the industry in them. For the half-year ending June, the Southland Company must have frozen between two and three hundred thousand rabbits, which just goes to prove that the reduction of the rate has brought revenue to the railway instead of loss. The whole of the reductions that are made in the railway rates, as far as we are concerned, we do not touch : they will simply go to the farmer. We only want to be on a similar footing to the rest of the companies. We ask for reduction of rate to Class E; and if this is not done we consider we are in justice entitled to a reduction— 33 per cent. 5. Hon. the Chairman.] What is the rabbit rate? —Just half rates—lls. 3d. Mr. Thompson : With regard to damage. Up to the present half-year our company have been almost entirely free from any damaged meat. We do not know what it is to have bone-stink, and we have had very little damage before the present half-year. At the same time, so

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far as we are concerned, we think the Government ought to make a very severe inspection of all these vessels when they arrive in the colony. Ido not think it should be done in London at all. If it were done here it would be much better for all concerned. Another thing I would mention is that we in Southland have come to the conclusion that it would be a great benefit to the frozen-meat trade if a central office was established in London by, say, the whole of the freezing companies in New Zealand and the Government jointly. It would not amount to a large expense for the whole. It would only be an infinitesimal sum; and, if the office were overlooked by an efficient expert with working officials under him, we think it would tend greatly to stop this damage in many ways. They would be able to inquire into details, and practically overlook the whole of the trade. It is thought it would be needful to co-operate with regard to the selling of the meat, but we do not consider that need be interfered with in any shape or form. Another thing :It is always stated that Canterbury mutton brings a little more than any other kind ; but we have proved that Southland sheep have been sent Home, and, simply because they bore the Canterbury brand, they were sold at a -J-d. per pound more than a similar lot of sheep from the same man without that brand. The mutton was equally good in both cases. It is quite evident, therefore, the mutton is not sold in London according to quality, as a rule. There must be a good deal in adopting a brand. 6. Hon. the Chairman.] Is it not a fact that in most of these cases where reductions are made they are made for the purpose of competing with the steamers ?—ln one case I believe it is so, but I cannot see what competition there can be, for instance, between Port Chalmers and Oamaru. 7. I suppose they carry it by steamers? —The big steamers cannot get into Oamaru, and in any case it would have to be carried hy rail. [Statement of carriage rates put in. Appendix T.] 8. You speak about inspection of the vessels being necessary to the colony. Is there any inspection now ?—Not that lam aware of. We do not have them inspected at the Bluff except by our own engineer, so far as he can go. The engineer tries the different holds ; but, as you know, though the temperature may be perfectly all right by the thermometers, there can be no telling how long these temperatures have been kept. The only way is to go back again some time afterwards, and keep a strict watch on the vessel. 9. Do you mean that the vessel should be inspected before she begins taking in meat ?—Yes, Sir, I do. . 10. What would be your view of inspection at the works ?—We have no objection to it in the least. As a rule, in Southland, we get the underwriters' inspector to go through our works. 11. Have you given evidence as to what, in your opinion, is the requisite time to have a sheep frozen before it is ready to send out of the works ?—We could not possibly send them out under five days. As a rule, we do not send them out under a week. 12. Would you consider five days a reasonable time as the limit for a sheep to be frozen ?—Five days would be ample. 13. Would a shorter time be incurring risk ?—I do not think it would incur risk, but it would be safer to have them frozen five days. As far as we are concerned, we should not send them out under that time. 14. What has been your experience of the risk of shipping at the port?—We have had no trouble whatever except in one instance. At the Bluff we do not use insulated vans. We are only 100 yards from the port, and so long as the vessel gets the trucks right alongside, we do not experience the least difficulty. In this particular case two of these trucks (ordinary covered vans) were shunted, and they were from four to five hours before they got alongside. The result was that the top tiers were thawing out a little. We therefore had to take these trucks back to the works. This is the only trouble we have ever had. We have railed sheep to Lyttelton and have not had any trouble. 15. Do you think it is possible to have a full testing of the meat by the engineer of the ship when it is being loaded ?—I think so, in conjunction with the fact that, where he can get to the works, I should certainly let him go to the works as well. Of course, at the Bluff they do that. 16. Do you make much use of the insulated-vans for carrying your meat ?—No; for a great portion of our meat we do not have insulated-vans at all; we just use the ordinary covered vans. 17. Mr. Wilson.] Your company, I understand, has two establishments—one at the Bluff and one at Mataura ? —We have three. 18. At the Bluff you have no complaint as to the railway rates ?—We are handicapped between Wallacetown and the Bluff, in proportion, just the same as between Mataura and the Bluff. 19. Is Mataura another of your establishments ?—Yes; we kill and freeze there. We rail the meat from Wallacetown to the Bluff green, and it is frozen at the Bluff. 20. How came you to have all these establishments ?—The first establishment was at the Bluff. The Mataura works are a new addition, put up to meet the needs of a large farming district, and it was put down at the Mataura because we could have the use of water-power for freezing from the Mataura Falls. 21. Was it considered that the advantage of having the water-power was greater than the disadvantage of having the extra freight? —The promoters, I suppose, thought they would be able to carry the freezing out at a low figure; but really the railway rate is so heavy that they have not been able to do it. 22. Do you find the water is not a great success ?—The water is a success in itself, if we had the rates to meet it. 23. But it only means 2-Jd. per sheep, as far as I can make out?— About 3d. per sheep, as near as possible —that is, taking the difference between the two rates. Unless a substantial reduction is made now, another reduction will have to be made later on, for if the meat goes down in price, something must be done, unless the country wants to see the frozen-meat industry stopped altogether, and I do not think they want to see that.

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24. Mr. Buchanan.] You have stated that wool, tallow, and coal are charged only half rates from the Ocean Beach works to Bluff?— Half rates for wool, and reduction of Is. 6d per ton on tallow, pelts, coal, &c. 25. Is it possible to do that work by water ? —Certainly not. 26. Was that reduction made for the same reason that the reduction has been made from Oamaru to Port Chalmers, because of the water competition ?—No, Sir; and I would here point out there is no such thing as water-competition in frozen meat. 27. You recommend a central office in London, maintained by the various freezing companies, for the purpose of inspection, and so on. Do you think you could get the freezing companies to agree to that ?—I cannot say that. It is just an idea we have in Southland; but if they could see it in a proper light, I think they would find it better for them. The Loan and Mercantile people are sending Mr. Cunningham Smith Home, and I think the Islington Company have sent Mr. Eandall Home. If we had, say, a gentleman like Mr. Cunningham Smith, with expert assistants under him, it would be worth while. 28. On what basis do you think the expenses of the office should be met ? —Divided pro ratd, according to number of sheep. 29. You said just now that you knew absolutely that one lot of Southland mutton had brought Jd. less in London than exactly the same description of mutton which happened to be shipped through a Canterbury freezing company. Were both lots of mutton sold on the one day ? —I could not say that; lam not positive. 30. Did you take special note as to the relative prices at the market on the day when the respective lots were sold ?—Yes ; the report of the sales was from Messrs. Weddel and Company, and in their report it distinctly stated that the market value of mutton was the same in each case. 31. In grading or classing this mutton, is it possible that the rejection of unsuitable mutton might have been different in the Canterbury freezing works from that of the Southland in this case ?—lt might be possible, but I should think the grading could not be closer than we grade. Our grades run from 50 to 70, and I should think the rest of the colony would be the same. 32. And the rejections?— Are very heavy with us to keep up quality. •33.- You said you had no damage with the mutton ? —Very slight. 34. Does that apply to last season as well as other years ? —Yes. 35. Is your port usually the first or last port of call for the steamers that you ship by ? —We have them always at the Bluff. Sometimes they come in first and take in part, and finish loading at other ports ; sometimes they come in to the Bluff and finish. 36. What charge per ton do you pay for the 100 yards' railage at the Bluff?—ls. 6d. per ton for the haulage for the 100 yards to the Government, and lid. wharfage to the Harbour Board. 37. That includes, of course, the use of the trucks ?—Yes. 38. Mr. Flatman.~] I think you said, in giving evidence the other day, that the rate on live sheep had been reduced 33 per cent. ?—lt amounts to 33 per cent, between Mataura and the Bluff. 39. Have you found that to be beneficial to your works in any way ?—Not in the least. 40. I think I understood you to say that you had no complaints to make about the vans except on one occasion. What was that?— That was the occasion that I mentioned. Of course, it was not a meat van, but a covered truck. These two vans were on the wharf for a considerable time. 41. That was the meat which was rejected ? —Yes. 42. Do you consider it would be more beneficial to the country as a whole to reduce the rates on live-stock rather than on frozen mutton ?—lf you reduce the one I think you must reduce the other, to make all freezing companies alike. If you reduce the rate for live-stock you certainly will give a preference to some works in the colony as against others who deal only in the dead. 43. Do you think it would be any advantage if there was a supervisor constantly on board each ship, and he was allowed to record the temperatures the same as the chief engineer, and have the same powers ?—I think it would certainly do good. But there is one thing with regard to the holds in these ships. One of oar engineers mentioned this :he gathered from what he has seen of these boats that there are instances where these thermometers do not take the temperature in the hold. For instance, I think they are sunk in the wells. Now, it is possible, if any of the return aircourses are blocked in a chamber, that in one part the temperature may be higher than the thermometer is. If the return air-course is blocked the temperature of the ship must naturally rise, and there will be damage. That will happen, because I have known it occur in a freezingchamber. The engineer told me that in all cases they should have the return air-course quite as large as the inflow. And another thing, our engineers recommend that the chief engineer on the ship be solely responsible for the meat cargo. I am not an engineer myself, but they say the rule is that generally they are not in charge fully. And then, all the engineers in our employ contend that the refrigerating department should have distinct boilers in the steamers. They say it is a known fact that by taking the steam from the main boilers that are driving the vessel the refrigerators suffer from want of steam. 44. J think you also said that you were handicapped in the rates. The difference is between 6d. for live sheep and BJd. for the carcases, taking skin, wool, and tallow into consideration as well?— About that. 45. Do you not think it would be worth more to carry the offal, carcase, &c, separately?— They do not handle it; we handle all that ourselves. The Government never touch it. 46. At both ends ?—Yes. 47. And they only have to provide extra trucks for carrying the offal and the frozen meat ?— That is all. 48. Mr. Lang.] What are the freezing works that get special differential railway rates?— Burnside, Woodville, Spit, and Ocean Beach. The Wellington works here have a differential rate for some parts of their product.

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49. You contend the Southland Freezing Company do not get the advantage of these rates? — No, we do not. 50. The Ocean Beach works is much nearer, I suppose?— Two miles from port. 51. You said a central office, with inspection in London, would probably be a great advantage to the freezing companies, and possibly give you valuable information as to damage on the steamers, or in landing. Would you suggest that that inspection be done at any special place ?—I would say that the proper way would be to board the vessels on landing, and carry out the inspection as far as you could when it was discharging, and follow it up into stores, &c. The insurance covers sixty days. We have been advised that meat is sometimes taken out of store, and put in again if not sold within sixty days. That must lead to a tendency to damage. 52. Would you approve of some storage being provided on the wharf, so that all the unloading should be done immediately into the store, and the selection of brands of meat made there afterwards? —Yes; but expense would be too heavy. The meat has to carry more expense now than the realising price warrants. 53. You consider it would be an advantage to the trade if this insurance for sixty days were done away with ?—lt ought to be reduced at any rate, so as to make it impossible for any one to take meat out and put it back again. This has been known to be done. 54. Would your proposal include grading in any manner ? Do you suggest that grading should be done preferentially?—At the present moment grading is carried out to a great extent. But in all probability, if the office was established in London, it would not be a great length of time before the whole matter of grading would become universal. 55. I did not refer to grading of that character. You say a certain consignment of meat was sent through a Canterbury freezing company, and another portion of the same quality from Southland. They arrived in London and were sold, and there was a difference in the price realised of Jd. per pound. To meet cases like this, would you suggest that preferential grading should be done?— I think it would be in the province of the central office to take that up, and advise how that should be done. 56. Would your suggestion of a London office have anything to do with this? Do you consider it would be to the companies' advantage to have a selling agency in London ?—lf it could be managed ; but Ido not think they could be got to co-operate in that. I might here state that we are not buyers of sheep. It would not affect our company. It would affect consignors; but we are not buyers ; we only freeze on owners' account. 57. Then, I understood you had had very little damage for some time past. In that small portion of damage that you have had, has the season of the year had anything to do with it ?—No, none whatever. 58. Then, as to the question raised by Mr. Flatman, about the inspection of the freezing chambers on board ship, by sending an inspector with the vessel. Would that be any more advantage than a self-registering thermometer?—l believe it is possible to manipulate these thermometers, and I do not think the self-registering thermometers would be any good in the end. 59. Mr. T. Mackenzie.] Do you know anything about the rabbit-freezing?— Yes. 60. Do you know whether it is paying ? —I think it is. ' 61. Paying doubly, in that it is having the effect of putting down the pest as well ?—There is no doubt of it. We have handled over two hundred thousand during the first half of this year, and we are still busy with the work. 62. Is there a reasonable demand at Home ?—Up to the present time there has been a good demand. 63. Eegarding branding. Do you think it would be any good to the country if the Home Government passed a measure requiring each country that sent frozen mutton to England to brand the mutton with some mark of the country from which it came ?—■ As a matter of fact, we already do brand ours as coming from New Zealand. Ido not know if the rest of the exporters do the same. 64. For instance, there is a Meat-marking Bill before the Home Government requiring meat to be marked in a certain way. I should like to know whether you thought that if the functions of the Bill were extended, and it was required that every country that sends meat Home should mark on the meat the brand of the country from which it comes, do you think it would help our meat trade ?—I should think it would do no harm, in any case. It is quite evident that there is a lot of mutton already sold, not as coming from New Zealand, but as something better; and yet it is New Zealand, and can be passed as Scotch. 65. Mr. McLachlan.] You say there is a differential rate from the Ocean Beach works to the Bluff. Are those the works that Mr. Ward built ? —Yes. 66. Are the conditions similar under which you ask for a special rate for your works ?—No, they are not at all alike. Sheep coming to the Ocean Beach works are all railed alive. 67. Is there a special rate for those works? —No; not for live sheep. 68. Mr. Mackenzie.] I understood you to say that there was a special rate ?—There is a special rate between Ocean Beach and the Bluff, for produce of sheep. 69. Mr. McLachlan.] You also asked for a special rate from Mataura to the Bluff?—We asked for a reduction. 70. Would it be the same as a special rate ?—lf it were not general over the colony it would be a special rate. 71. You think your claims are equal to the claims of that company for a reduction?— That company had a concession given them when the live-stock rate was reduced ; and surely we are entitled to an equal reduction of dead-meat rate ? As a matter of fact, at the present time we pay a very large sum more for railage than the Ocean Beach people.

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72. How do the rates for tallow compare with the rates for butter and cheese ? Are they the same class? —I am not quite sure of that. Butter and cheese are of a perishable nature, and, of course, tallow is not. Tallow is a thing that might be classed at a very low rate. I think you will find a great reduction has been made within a recent time on dairy produce. lam not quite sure, but I think dairy produce used to be carried as Class B, and it is now carried as Class D. 73. You said in one case there was a shipment of mutton, I understood you to say, coming from your works. It was in two lots, and the one lot sold as Southland and the other as Canterbury ?—They did not both come from our works. Half went from our works and half from a Canterbury company's. There is no doubt that all first-class mutton coming from New Zealand ought to be classed as Canterbury. 74. With regard to the insulation of the vans that convey the meat: We have had it in evidence that the insulation of the vans is imperfect. Are no extra precautions taken for railing the meat in these vans ? —We do not use any extra precautions. There is an old class of van, a small van, not very good. But if we are going to rail them a long distance we do not put them into that class of van, but into the new vans. 75. You do not inject cold air into the trucks ?—Not at all. 76. What reduction would you require to enable your company to compete on a level with other companies?— About 33 per cent. 77. That would not be Id. a sheep ?—About 3d. from Mataura. 78. For railage alone ?—Yes; but you must bear in mind that we consider the rate ought to be reduced a great deal more than that. Our people in Southland think it ought to come under Class E, the same as agricultural produce. 79. What is the advantage you have of water-power at Mataura ? What would it cost to supply your refrigerating-power at Mataura if you used coal instead of water ? —Of course, there is considerable saving in the freezing. 80. A penny a sheep?— Quite that. 81. Are you aware that in Canterbury they do it for less ?—Yes ; but the quantity does that. 82. You thought the engineers did not exactly do their duty on board ship through carelessness or something -of that sort in allowing the temperature to rise in the refrigerating-chamber. Do you not think the fact that they get a bonus for efficient delivery would prevent that ?—lt does not appear so. And then there may be damage going on that they are not aware of. 83. You said that on one occasion some vans were shunted and the meat injured. Was that meat injured by this partial thaw ? —No; it was frozen up and sent in the following steamer. 84. Meat does not deteriorate, in your opinion, from a slight thaw?—No, it does not, if not allowed to go up and down. 85. Hon. the Chairman.] What proportion of weight is there in a truck loaded with tallow as compared with a meat-truck ?—You can load an ordinary truck of tallow up to the full capacity. 86. Would that be greater than the meat-truck?—Oh, no. 87. Have you reports from your Home agents as to the dealing with meat on arrival?— Yes, we have had reports. 88. Tell us generally what they are ? —ln what particular way ? 89. Do they complain of the treatment of the meat on arrival?—No ; they do not complain of that, unless delay occurs. As a matter of fact, I believe it is very roughly handled in London. I have seen it roughly handled there myself coming out of the steamers into the barges. 90. Are there any particular vessels in the trade that are more unfortunate than others in the carrying of their meat? —Undoubtedly. 91. Do you attribute it to faulty construction, or anything in particular?—l cannot attribute it to any specific cause ; but the boats are, in many cases, without machinery enough. Perhaps the insulation, too, has been a long time in. 92. Do you refuse to ship in any of these vessels ?—We have not done so, because we have not had any trouble up to the present half-year. 93. Mr. Wilson.] What is your charge for freezing ? —f d. 94. And have you a consolidated rate which you charge your customers ?—Only a consolidated rate for London. 95. What is the usual cost in your district to ship from your works and sell in London ?■ —At the present time there is fd. for freezing, and fd. for freight, and, then, of course, exchange and insurance, and the -Jd. consolidated rate in London. 96. About l|d. ? —Something like that. 97. Is that for the winter months ?—Yes. 98. It is higher by Jd. in the summer ?—Yes. 99. Hon. the Chairman.] What weight do you load of the fresh green meat in a railway-truck ? —I could not say for the moment. 100. Is not the truck constructed to carry a load of six tons? —Not the green-meat van. In all probability you might get six tons into the truck if it were anything like stone, or something very heavy. 101. What weight of fresh green meat do you load into a railway-truck?—l do not know quite. You may calculate about forty to a ton. Say two tons, which is over the average for all classes of wagons used on the railways. 102. And the answer to the other question is, you believe it is constructed to carry a load of six tons ? —I believe it will. 103. Is not green meat in all cases loaded up to six tons in every truck ?—-No, not in all cases. 104. Is it fair to say that the rate per ton is as low as you say ?—I do not think there is anything unfair in it. The reduction in rates commences from a low mileage and goes right up to a long distance.

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105. Would you load more lambs into a frozen-meat truck than of full-sized sheep, and also more live lambs than live sheep ?—Quite so. We pay more for a dead lamb alone going from Mataura to Bluff than is paid for a live sheep. 106. In comparing live- and dead-sheep rates, have you not omitted to draw attention to this ?— Attention is drawn to it now. The comparison is exactly the same. [The above questions were asked by the Chairman by request.] 107. Mr. Flatman.] If a mob of sheep were driven quickly on a hot day, taken to the slaughterhouse, and at once killed before they had cooled down, do you think that would create a tendency to bone-stink in the carcases ? —I am not able to say that. We do not kill them ourselves in that state. [For questions asked Mr. T. Thompson by the Eailway Department, and the answers thereto, see Appendix V.] Mr. D. Sladden, Manager of the Wellington Meat Export Company, examined. Mr.Sladden: I think the two points upon which I have something to say would be the questions of railway carriage and of damage. With regard to railway carriage, the company I represent pay a good deal of freight both upon live and dead stock, our slaughtering-works being four miles from town, and, as we have freezing-works both near the slaughtering-works and in Wellington, we pay a dead-meat rate on all the meat we kill, as well as a live-meat rate on all live-stock. Up to the present we have generally confined ourselves to agitating for a lower freight on live-stock than on dead meat, because the amount involved in the carriage of dead meat is not very heavy, and we expect the railway to do a good deal of work for it as compared with the live-stock. That is to say, for our green sheep that we freeze in Wellington we call upon them to keep sixteen or seventeen trucks for our use, which they can only use once in the day, and for our frozen meat we call upon them to keep a lot of trucks, to run special trains, and to go to a good deal of trouble to provide us with conveniences to get our frozen meat in to suit the ship. The total rate for our four miles amounts to about l-3d. per sheep, and as we have a railway-siding alongside one of the wharves we think the conveniences are practically worth the money, and we rather apply our energies to getting more trucks, special trains, and other facilities for our meat than to any reduction we think would be likely to be made on such a rate as T3d. per sheep. Of course, Ido not say we should not be very glad to see a reduction. We should be glad; but at the same time we pay a great deal more attention to the reduction on the live sheep from up country to Wellington. Companies differ a good deal, but, as far as we are concerned, a cheap rate for live sheep is very much more important than one for dead sheep, and there is this advantage: that it almost always goes to the farmer direct. He knows what it is and sees what it is, and he gets it directly or indirectly. The live-sheep rate has been reduced during the last year about 20 to 25 per cent., I think, but no corresponding reduction has been made in the dead meat. With respect to the relative rates between live and dead sheep until that reduction was made, we were under the impression that the inland freezing companies had rather the advantage, because until the reduction was made in live-stock they could about bring their dead sheep and its products to the port for the same sum as ourselves, and that places a company that is in or near a port at a distinct disadvantage. They have very much higher expenses, pay very much higher rates, they are on land that is more valuable, and there are a great number of advantages in being in the country in the way of economical working which the companies who have their establishments close to port do not get. Prom our point of view, when the last reduction was made in the live-stock rate we thought it was in the directioa of equalising and making the relative proportions between live and dead meat more equitable. With regard to goods-traffic, I might say, also, that although the loading—l do not think we do the unloading here, I think here we only load such things as tallow and preserved meat into the trucks—there has been a slight reduction made to us between Ngahauranga and Wellington on these rates, as a matter of fact it is almost futile, because we can cart cheaper, and even at the reduction granted to us we are not able to use the railway to advantage. We still continue to cart the bulk of our tallow and preserved meat. It is not for me to express an opinion—l do not like to —as to the reductions that should be made to companies that are inland; their interests and ours to some extent clash. But Ido say this : that some relation between live-stock and dead-meat rates should be recognised as being a correct one, and the same difference should be maintained in regard to each, because, otherwise, if continual changes are made first in the live and then in the dead rates, you are continually handicapping one or the other. So that I really think, as far as all the companies are concerned, that the main thing would be that some distinct understanding should be arrived at as to what should be a fair relation between the live and the dead rate, and that that should be maintained. As far as Wellington is concerned, we suffer very heavily indeed from the interpolation of the Wellington-Manawatu Eailway between our works and our sheep, or a great portion of them. This is one of the greatest nuisances that we have to contend against, and it amounts, I should think, compared with what it would be if the whole line were in the hands of the Government, to a total loss on all the sheep that are brought down from the West Coast of somewhere about sd.—an average of about 6d. above Wanganui and 4d. below Wanganui. There used to be a special concession from Wanganui and northward, but that concession has been waived so far as the Government is concerned, though it is still in force on the Wellington-Manawatu line. That is really the heaviest handicap from which we have to suffer, and it is very heavy, because in Wellington we have, you may say, to go fifty miles into the Wairarapa, or nearly so, before we get a sheep at all to work upon, and we have to go eighty or ninety miles up the Wellington-Manawatu line before we get into the sheep-country at all, and the sheep we get on this side of Longburn are very small in number; so that the Wellington companies, and, through them, the settlers on the West Coast, are very heavily handicapped in that respect, and the Wellington companies would leave no stone unturned to get the Manawatu Eailway taken possession of by the Government, or, at any rate, to get it so managed that it was treated

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as being part of the Government lines. I do not know that I have anything more to say on the question of rates. I do not know that I could speak more strongly than I have about the Manawatu Eailway. The farmers pay the extra rate, although the company pays in the first instance. With respect to the damage to meat, it is a very large question. Since this inquiry began I notice there are some reports from Mr.. Gray published in the Evening Post of 25th August. Mr. Gray begins by asking who are to blame ; and I may here say at once that, as far as we are concerned, we are satisfied that the bulk of the damage is done on board ship. But we believe a good deal of damage is done in London between the port and the freezing-store. We have ourselves had hardly any claim at all for damage this year, nor have we had more than a very little damage for several years past. This year almost the only damage that has come under my notice has been in the case of shipments of private owners. I may explain here that we buy nearly the whole of our meat and sell it either f.o.b. or c.i.f. generally, and it very often ceases to be our property when put on board. So that the small quantity of meat we freeze on account of owners that goes to agents is very limited, and most of the damage that has come to my notice has been amongst these lots. It has not been very considerable ;in general it refers to small portions. Perhaps twenty or thirty carcases in the shipment of a hundred or two are reported as off' colour or slightly damaged, and one or two, perhaps, condemned, and so on. It has not amounted latterly to a very large item, but it is very irritating to the shippers indeed, and it is very difficult to get any definite information about it. Of course, every one connected with it declares that the damage is done somewhere else; but I think Mr. Gray, in these reports that he has sent, has given a good deal of valuable information, which bears out what I said about a great deal of the damage being done on board ship. In one part of his report he alludes to bone-stink. It is pointed out that a large number of cases of bone-stink have been discovered among recent arrivals. But if the meat were sent in frozen it would be utterly impossible to detect the bone-stink when the meat was landed. We have had no bone-stink lately. We used to have it in beef, but the only time I had it in mutton was in nine carcases, and in the case of some legs of mutton which were taken from sheep slaughtered some hundred and fifty miles inland, or rather more, and were sent down to us, and I objected to them when they were taken in. I believe some of these suffered from bone-stink. Practically we have had no bone-stink in mutton. Meat must-be-very much damaged indeed if it is landed by a ship in such a condition that it is possible to detect bone-stink at all; it cannot be detected until after the meat is thawed. You might take a sheep that is perceptibly beginning to decay and freeze it, and you could not detect it as long as it was kept frozen. To carry out my contention that a great deal of damage is done on board ship, I would point out that soon after the inception of the trade, and after the freezing companies and the ships' engineers had begun to understand the matter, and after the whole of the direct steamers had been fitted with refrigerating machinery, there was a period of about eighteen months or two years when there was no damage on the steamers. As far as my knowledge goes, the damage began from the time when the steamers were enlarged and further fitted with machinery, and I think, in many instances, the arrangement of the supplementary machinery that was put in (arrangement of the trunking, and so on) was not made so satisfactory as in the first instance. But, independently of that, I know of ships where the steam-power was rather insufficient before the extended accommodation was put in, and these steamers have now the same boilers, although they are carrying more meat, though the pressure of the boilers had been reduced a good many pounds since then. So that a great deal less steam-power is available now than when they carried half the number of sheep and were short of steam-power. In support of my contention, I say the engineers on shore are in much better condition to know what is going on than those on board ship. They are working at the business every day. They do not put their meat in a chamber and not go near it; and if our engineer were ill or anything happened to him there are plenty of other people about the rooms who would notice at once if the temperature altered. We take the meat one day into the freezing-room, it hangs in the chamber the whole of the second day, and we expect to be able to bag it and store it on the afternoon of the third day. 108. Hon. the Chairman.] After that third day is anything more necessary?—lt goes into the store then, and it is probable—l dare say, in many instances it is possible—that the sheep may have still a good deal of heat to lose before the centre would get to 15 deg. I would take it that when the centre of a sheep is at 15 deg. it is absolutely impregnable. It would in some cases not be as low as others, but it should always be frozen hard enough to stand a weight of ten sheep above it. I have no recollection in our works of having stowed any sheep that gave way when we put them up in that way. 109. Mr. Wilson.] Before you put it in the chamber how long does it stay'?—We hang it the whole night. We put it in the freezing-chamber on the morning after it is killed. 110. Hon. the Chairman.] Would you say whether you would ship at the end of the three days ?—lt might be, but I should not like to rely upon it; taking ordinary conditions, if I was going to do it I should require to have the temperatures watched and special precautions taken. 111. How long would you be completing the process?—l suppose in practice we hardly ever ship anything under four days as the minimum, but, generally speaking, not under five or six days. 112. If there were a time being fixed how long would you need ?—I should not like to fix the time, because it could easily be done in two days. 113. But to provide for safety ?—I do not think it should be done under four days. As a matter of fact, very little of it is shipped under a week. Mr. Uladclen (continuing) : Mr. Gray's statement in his first reports contains a reference to the " Duke of Sutherland." He says, " A good deal of damage to carcases and unnecessary delay is occasioned by the necessity for sorting marks in the ships' holds." And then he goes on to say he has discussed the subject with the insurance companies, shipowners, and merchants. The first, in some instances, seem to fear a reduction in the rate of premium for insurance; the second complain 10—I. 9.

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of increasing negligence on the other side; while the third says both collectively account for the whole thing. In the first place, Ido not think that any evidence that can be got on board a ship is of much value as compared with accurate and detailed evidence that can be got on shore. Fortyeight hours is the very most that is ever allowed for the cooling-down of a vessel, and, in many cases, twenty-four hours is considered sufficient. Twenty-four hours may be sufficient under certain circumstances, but the question is whether it is wise to rely upon so short a space of time being sufficient to prepare the ship for stowing the sheep. If we thaw down our works, which we very rarely do, we do not think of hanging up sheep to freeze unless the works have been cooled down for at least twenty-four hours, and we do not stow sheep on the floor until the engine has been running four or five da.ys, and even then it will take fully a month to reduce the freezing-works when they have been thawed down to the condition they were in when freezing ceased, and in a brick building with thick brick walls we have noticed the difference up to two months, and it takes fully two months to thaw. Before I would expect the evidence of the ship's log, no matter how correctly taken, to be of equal value to the information that we obtained I should say that, in the first place, the refrigerating-engines on board ship should be kept going continuously. They should only be stopped for one reason, and that is when the temperature is too low. Then, again, the time for cooling down, although under certain circumstances and with plenty of pumps and plenty of circulation of air around the meat I do not say it might not be made sufficient, I say it is insufficient to leave a fair margin for safety. The insulation both on a ship and in a freezing-works is continually deteriorating every time it is thawed. Every time a thaw takes place a great deal of moisture is deposited on the wood ; it gets into the wood, and apparently it gets into the charcoal. In one of our old works, which we have pulled down, the charcoal had got completely charged with water, and the insulation was very much impaired. In my opinion, judging from what I have seen on the shore works, the insulation on a ship must deteriorate every day. With respect to the means they have of detecting whether anything goes wrong on board ship, it seems to me that the whole thing is wrong. They stop their engines in certain watches. I maintain that if they stop at all, except for the reason that the temperature is too low, they are running the risk of damaging the meat. Any arbitrary rule of starting at certain' hours and running so long is clearly wrong. The running of the engines should not be based on any other question than the temperature of the hold. As I understand, in some steamers more steam is required than in others. But there are some parts of the twenty-four hours in a ship when steam can be better spared than others ; and in those ships they run the refrigerating-engines at these hours, and they take the temperature, generally speaking, in the trunks. I maintain that that is absolutely useless. Supposing it is necessary to stop the engines at all, then clearly the proper time to take the temperature is before the engines are started again. Then you have got probably the worst temperature of the hold ; but to take the temperature after you have started the engines—after two hours, say—is futile. It is simply taking the temperature of the air that you are pumping in. It seems to me the only place to take the temperature is to take it when the air is returned to the engine. Then you know the worst. But even then you might not always know the worst, if the stowing of the sheep had been such that the circulation of the air amongst them in the hold was insufficient, because you might pump in cold air and take it back again before it was as hot as the sheep in the hold. There is no spotting on the sheep when they go on board ship, and I am perfectly certain that if any engineer thought there was he would take the wrapper off and look for it. They do not bother their heads much, however, about the sheep. They know that they can easily tell by a simple test whether they are properly frozen. 114. Mr. Wilson.} What is the cause of spotting ?—The temperature being allowed to go up ; nothing else in the world. I would suggest, if any recommendation is made for the Government to follow out the process, it would be very simple for the man appointed to test the whole thing. He could look and see what the process was, what the temperature, the effect on the meat, and whether there was any spotting at all. He could see what the result was of putting a sheep out, letting it get soft in the flank, and putting it back again, and many other matters. Of course, some ships' engineers would like to maintain that it is the butcher who is responsible for the whole thing. The bulk of the damage is done on board ship, but some of it is done at the docks. 115. A theory started by the ship's people was that the meat was frozen before it had cooled sufficiently ?—I never heard spotting accounted for that way. I can easily make a spotted sheep if need be. Mr. Sladden (continuing) : But with respect to the damage in London: We have a good deal of information on the subject. Ido not mean to say altogether that the ships are to blame ;it is the system apparently that is to blame. A lot of sheep may be, for instance, unloaded from a discharging ship at the London docks and placed on one side, but when nobody comes for them they are put back again when night comes. They have been in a higher temperature during the day. That is not the worst of it; they might be put back and their temperature reduced. But, owing to the fact that the wharf - labourers in London will not work when the machinery is going, they are compelled to stop the engines, and the heat gets into the hold from the hatch being off. I know that in some instances sheep have been put back two or three times, and each night the temperature of the hold has gone back slightly, in spite of all they can do. Of course, it is rather difficult to get this evidence, and, in some instances, when we get information we get it in a way that we cannot make use of it. But we know this has been the case in some instances. It is a great misfortune that the engines cannot be kept going in London the same as they are here; but the wharflabourers have a prejudice which arose from some unfortunate half-fed fellow breaking a blood-vessel in a freezing-chamber, and they will not go in. That is where I think a great deal of the damage takes place, and, although I cannot make any suggestion as to how the sheep can be removed more regularly and more readily from the vessels, it must be very evident that it would be an important thing if the meat could be taken out of the ship as fast as it could be discharged, and if it

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could be put into some place where the temperature was low enough to keep it while it was sorted. Suggestions have been made for refrigerating-chambers on the wharf ; but up to the present time the difficulty has always been the extra expense, and people have been apt to fight against it for this reason : that, as great quantities of meat have frequently been delivered at Home in perfect order— they say it has been delivered in'perfect order—therefore it is quite clear that this is not necessary ; and there are some other circumstances which account for it. I see that there is a good deal of information in Mr. Gray's report about the sixty days' insurance. It undoubtedly has a tendency to make the ships feel their responsibility less ; but, on the other hand, to do away with it would be rather a blow to the c.i.f. business, which seems to me one of the most important things to foster. As far as our company is concerned, we have been able to do much better since we have been able to make forward sales ; and I am satisfied that if the meat arrives to the charge of the purchaser instead of to the charge of the agent it is better looked after. And I have heard an insurance agent, who was always a shipper of meat, say that his experience was that the claims for loss were less on the lots under the c.i.f. arrangements than when they are consigned to agents. I think, perhaps, that less than sixty days might be sufficient, but I do not think it would do to cut it off altogether. To retard the discharge of the cargo sufficiently to watch the condition of every sheep landed would be almost impossible, and I think it would be a great bar to this kind of selling. The purchaser buys his bill of lading and his insurance policy, he knows he has got to get the meat, and if it is not good be will be paid the insurance. I think it would be a drawback to do away with a margin after arrival. Ido not say it might not be less, but even then I should like to have some opportunity of consulting the people at Home, and seeing what they think before giving an opinion. At the same time I admit that the knowledge that, if they get it over the ship's side, the damage, if any, will be paid for by somebody else is likely to make the ship's people somewhat more careless. Mr. Gray, in one part of his report, says, " I was present at the examination of the meat ex s.s. ' Aorangi.' This was trucked ashore into the dock-sheds, where the temperature stood at 80 deg. on Ist June. I was astonished to see that, while this examination of badly-damaged and very offensively stinking meat was proceeding, the passengers from the 'Buapehu,' just arrived, were compelled to stand in this shed awaiting the clearance by Customs of their luggage." All I have to say is that, no matter how stinking that meat was when put on board the ship, if it had been carried by the ship as it ought to have been, and landed as it ought to have been, it would have been absolutely impossible to tell that anything was the matter with it until thawed. It is impossible to detect bone-stink, and, of course, if there is anything else the matter with the sheep it can be detected when it is put on board the ship here, and, if the ship cannot land her meat in the same condition as when put on board, it is obvious that the cause of this badly-damaged and very offensive meat must arise on board. The engines could not have done their work properly for a fortnight. Mr. Gray proceeds to emphasize this again by pointing out how unreliable the log records of the temperatures were. He is referring here to cheese. If the engineers cannot keep the temperature right for cheese when they have not got to find much power for it, and have only got to keep it slightly cool, you can hardly expect them to take the temperatures right when it involves the expenditure of a good deal of steam, which in some instances probably they cannot spare. What they have to do to keep the cheese good is only of a negative character, while in the other case they have got to reduce the temperature. Speaking of his examination of the freezing-chambers of the "Buapehu," Mr. Gray says, "What is the use of an engineer producing a thermometer which shows that a temperature of 48 deg. is ruling at that point when immediately after I examine cheese taken from within a few feet of the same point and find 56 or 32, according to whether the goods were stowed in the middle of the chamber or at the trunks." Can you have anything more convincing than that ? The room in which the cheese is supposed to be kept at a certain temperature varies from 56 deg. to 32 deg., and yet neither of these temperatures is recorded in the log. So I am perfectly right in saying that comparately little reliance is to be placed on the evidence on board ship of the condition of the meat as compared with the evidence that can be got on shore. I noticed in this morning's paper, in an interview with Mr. Valentine, that there is some evidence to show that some of the meat is too quickly frozen. All I have to say about that is that it is contrary to common-sense, to the experience of everybody, and it is contrary to scientific facts that can easily be established. I think it is a great pity that people should make remarks which are published as coming from experts which are so ridiculous. I was going to say, with regard to the time that I think a vessel should be cooled down, that a good deal depends really on the thickness of the battens that are used for dunnage, and on the regularity with which they are placed In some vessels in one line they are all 3in. by 3in. of hard wood and permanently spiked. That particular line hardly ever damages any meat. But in some of the other lines the battens are only 2in. by 2in. and they are not permanently spiked, but they are rearranged and nailed down when the ship is being got ready. Twenty-four hours can only be made sufficient to prepare the hold if there is good circulation of air around the hold. Of course, all the heat extracted by the engines comes in from the side, and if you place the sheep against the side, so that the heat extracted from the outside has got to come through the sheep first, it is quite clear damage must result. I know of one instance in particular, where a sheep was found curled up in one corner and badly damaged, and nobody could understand, how it was. There was not another sheep damaged. It was simply that the other sheep were kept away from the insulation by the battens, and this sheep had been dumped into the top corner, touching the insulation, and the heat came through faster than it could be taken away. The only way in which you could stow mutton without free circulation of the air would be by reducing the temperature very much in the first instance; and even then you might get damage at the bottom if the vessel were not properly cooled down. You do not know what the temperature may be underneath, and until the temperature of the insulation is reduced the heat rises. It will take more heat from underneath than at the sides at first. For

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instance, some vessels have carried pig - lead in their freezing - chambers, and put boards on the top of that to make a deck. The experience of engineers has been that these chambers must be cooled down for a long time to take the heat out of the metal. If you have a chamber half cooled down, you might find the meat would first damage at the bottom, because the heat coming in from the surrounding parts of tHe vessel would come in faster there at first than from any other direction, as heat travels upwards most readily. There is another trifling matter. Meat is very much knocked about by people walking about on the top of it. In the ships originally they used to use some slippers, but now they walk on it in their boots. While the loading is going on there is a lot of coal-dust generally flying about and lying on the wharves; and after the men have been walking about on it, after being on the wharves, it looks very different from what it was originally when first put into the hold. It has been brought home to us once or twice when we have been asked to take back some sheep, and when we have had to do so it has always been the case that some of the bags were so dirty that we have thought it necessary to put fresh bags upon the carcases. I think a great deal more care might be taken. In one or two cases I have happened to be standing outside when meat has been taken from the store-rooms of the steamers to allow of repairs to their machinery, and have remarked that if any of our meat looks like this when it gets to London, the impression produced, although the meat was right enough, would be anything but pleasant. With regard to bone-stink, there have been some opinions expressed that bone-stink may arise from the meat being frozen too soon, or from a variety of other causes. I say bone-stink cannot arise if the meat is frozen quick enough. I have never heard of it arising in those countries where they kill the meat with an atmospheric temperature of 10 deg. or 15 deg., and when the animal falls down the blood begins to congeal almost before it has finished bleeding. I never heard of it there, and you would think it would be prevalent there if anywhere if too quick freezing were the cause. I look upon this matter as very simple. lam satisfied, myself, that heat flows out of meat or anything else at a regular fixed rate, according to the contrast between the temperature of the surrounding air and the temperature of the hottest part of it. The tendency of it all is to equalise, just the same as water to find a level; and there is no difficulty in finding the rate at which heat will leave meat in a room at a certain temperature. In 1891 there was a good deal of discussion about this point, and so much so that we thought it possible, by freezing a sheep very suddenly on the outside, it might retard the abstraction of the heat, and there might possibly be the same effect as was claimed—namely, that the bone-stink arose from freezing too fast. The trouble always was with beef, with which you always have to exercise a great deal of care to avoid bone-stink at certain times, because it takes so long to extract the heat from the centre of the thick part of the hind-quarter that it may decay before it has begun to cool throughout. The experiment I refer to was this :We killed about fifty bullocks, and I put two hind-quarters of one into a chamber as soon as possible after it was killed. That chamber was kept within 1 deg. of 10 deg. for a fortnight, not being allowed to vary. Two days afterwards I put two more hind-quarters alongside the two in this chamber of 10 deg., and hung them together. The rest of the mob we put into a chamber with a temperature of 7 deg. below zero. Of course, the temperature in that chamber was at once brought up considerably by the mass of meat put into it, whereas in the other chamber the quantity was not sufficient to affect the temperature. I did this in order to see if there was anything in the contention that freezing outside was the cause of bone-stink. If so, it could only arise from the fact that freezing quickly retarded the process in some way or other. This is not the case. On the contrary, from start to finish the two quarters that we put in hot were ahead of the others, and it took ten days before the centre of the second two quarters of beef had reached the temperature of the first. [Paper put in giving tables of temperatures of the quarters of beef inside and outside on the different days, Appendix X.] On the last day the temperature of the one was 12 deg. and the other 15 deg. This difference of temperature bears out what I say—namely, that there is a steady flow of heat which can easily be calculated and recorded. Although you might think they would be exactly the same in a week, as a matter of fact they are not. . The flow is so steady that if there is a little more heat in the one than in the other it will take a very long time to equalise it. This experiment is an absolute answer to the theory that meat will contract bone-stink from being frozen too quickly. With regard to mutton : As soon as I was asked to attend this inquiry on the 15th August, as I had no absolute record of the time occupied in the process with mutton, I made "some experiments. We have tube thermometers, which we put into a carcase diagonally from the upper part of the hind-quarter right into the centre, and we also put one of them between the kidneys and the back, and the thermometers are left inside, and only taken out for purposes of recording. These thermometers are all carefully checked by our standard; and, in order to make certain that these experiments should not be challenged, we have always carefully tested our thermometers. On the 15th August 523 sheep were chambered at Ngahauranga at 9.30 a.m. The temperature of the chamber was at 9 deg. At 4 p.m. on the same day 386 more sheep were put into the same room. After all the sheep were in the temperature of the room was 25 deg. On the 16th August, at 8 a.m., the temperature of the room had fallen to 21 deg. At 11 a.m. on the 17th August the temperature of the room was 14 deg., and the meat hard enough for bagging and stacking. [Table of temperatures in connection with experiment put in, Appendix W.] 116. Hon. the Chairman.~\ When you were talking of railway carriage, you spoke of the rate from your works to the wharf. That distance is only about four miles, is it not ?—That is all. 117. Practically, no reduction of rates would affect the carriage of your frozen meat? —No, I think not. 118. Have you ever complained to the company of the Manawatu rate ?—We tried to get them to make the same reduction as the Government, but they absolutely refused. 119. Was it so that they threatened to unload at Longburn ? —Not exactly threatened ; they said there were other things they could do if we fought the question, and there was nothing to prevent them doing other things. Ido not think it is quite right to say that they threatened.

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120. Can you detect bone-stink at the works ?—We have had so little experience of it, with the exception of beef. We used to test our beef every morning until it was frozen. Generally speaking, it should be tested, but it is not safe to allow the meat to remain so long before being frozen that any question can possibly arise. It must be put into an artificial atmosphere soon enough to make bone-stink impossible. 121. Is there any safe time that can be fixed for killing after driving?—We like cattle and sheep to stand a night. Of course, when we get sheep trucked down to Johnsonville, and drive them to the works next day, I do not object to killing these in the afternoon. 122. You have explained the time that meat should be frozen, I think?—l consider four days should be the minimum in practice. 123. What do you think of inspection to insure that the meat leaves the works in proper condition in all respects ? —I do not see any objection to it at all; but lam satisfied that after the Government had been inspecting it for some time they would come to the conclusion that it was unnecessary. But I think it would be very wise indeed if the Governmnt were to appoint men in one or two instances to follow the whole process right away Home. 124. As to the inspection of the temperature of the hold of the vessel when the meat is received, does that want attention ?—When it is put on board? We will not put it on board unless the temperature is fairly down; but you may reduce the temperature of the hold to a sufficiently low degree without having cooled the insulation enough. 125. Is proper inspection and certificating of the vessel desirable prior to receiving the meat?— Yes; but Ido not think much about the certificate. More care should be taken in seeing that the vessels are cooled down. 126. Can you suggest any other way to insure that but by inspection ? —I do not know that I can. If it were recognised fully that twenty-four hours were insufficient it would be something. The evil I complain of is that it is supposed to be sufficient, and it is not necessarily so. 127. For safety and for insuring proper records, would self-registering thermometers give a reliable report as to the condition of the hold during the time of transit to England?—l think selfregistering thermometers are like Artemus Ward's perpetual motion—they would not be much good without a 'stout nigger to turn the handle. They would liot be of much use unless you had somebody to look after them. All an ordinary self-registering thermometer would do would be to register the lowest point at which it had got to, and you would want to know more than that. I think the proper thing to do is to take the temperature when the air goes back from the room after having done its work. You may then take the temperature as evidence that the temperature of the room is low enough. If, as I said, it was a rule that the machinery was kept going unless it had to be stopped because the temperature was getting too low, you could rely absolutely upon tempera tures so taken. 128. You think to insure proper records it is necessary to have some responsible person outside the ship's people for recording what takes place?—l think it is the only way. It is not fair to expect the engineer to record against himself. 129. Would inspection in London be of value? —I do not know anything about it. I hardly like to give any opinion on that, because I understand the difficulty of any delay is very serious. Of course, I can understand, if there was some place a ship could be discharged into, that an inspection then, when the meat was not deteriorating, might be of value, but it might be got at too high a cost, I am afraid. 130. Mr. Wilson.] About this 20-per-cent. reduction of rates on the Wellington-Manawatu Railway : Can you calculate as to what per sheep that means to the settler ?—You are supposing the Manawatu line reduced the same as the Government. I think somewhere about 2d. or 2^d. 131. You have made application to the railway company, and they refused to reduce it. Have you tested the case ?—The reason we did not test it was we were afraid we might win on it, and that they would then score against us in another way. 132. Are you aware they have not sufficient trucks?— They explained to us that they could not afford to do it. Their position was simply this : They could not afford to do it, and they would not do it as long as they could help. 133. Mr. Buchanan.] You stated four days as the minimum for keeping sheep in the works before discharging into the steamer. What about lamb and beef ?—I would like to see beef always in the works a full week at the very least. As for lamb, I would not make much difference between a lamb and a sheep, for, although the former freezes more quickly than the latter, it is very brittle, and it very soon gets soft. Ido not say it cannot be done in less than four days, but for practical purposes four days are required. 134. You say the damage, within your experience, was confined to a small amount of twenty or thirty carcases ? Were these actual rejections by the London Inspector ?—No ; most of them were reported as off-colour, and a few of them condemned. Perhaps a single one in a shipment. 135. We have had it given in evidence by people representing the ships that a considerable proportion of the mutton delivered to them at the various ports was not in such good condition as it ought to be, and that the damage on board ship arose because of that fact. Can you say to the Committee that it is absolutely certain you can tell, without taking the wrapper off the carcase, whether it is thoroughly frozen ?—Yes, readily ; whether it is properly frozen, apart from bonestink. 136. Secondly, if the ships have perfect power to reject everything which, in their opinion, is unfit for stowage, it is their fault if damage on board their ships arises from their taking mutton improperly frozen into their ships "? —Clearly it is their fault. There are a few ships, in my experience, that never damage the meat, and some others that scarcely ever do. If you get a ship that carries its meat badly they will be trying every point so that they can put something down into the log. The ships that cannot carry the meat are much more particular about the condition of it than the ships that can carry it.

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Mr. Sladden's examination continued. Tuesday, Ist September, 1896. 1. Mr. Buchanan.] If the temperature of the hold rises above 32 cleg, in the London docks, would the melted snow find its way into the charcoal insulation ? —I can only surmise as to that. If any water got on to the decks and ran down the walls of the ship it must find its way more or less into the charcoal. 2. But I am referring to the snow which is always present more or less amongst the carcases? —I have never been into a ship's hold when she was discharging, and I cannot give you any direct evidence on that point; but it is clear that anything in the nature of a thaw causes moisture in the vessel from several causes : First of all, any wet that runs down the walls or stands on the deck will find its way in; and, secondly, condensation is always going on from the atmosphere at that temperature. 3. It has been given in evidence that the largest portion of damage occurs in the lower hold. What, in your opinion, does that point to?— There, again, lam in difficulty. There are some steamers in which notoriously certain chambers or holds are defective, but I cannot give any reason why there should be more damage in the lower part of the vessel than in the upper part. Of course, in the case of a vessel with a very deep hold—say 16ft. or 18ft. or so —the danger in the way of crushing would be much greater than in the older pattern of hold that was only about Bft. or 9ft. deep. 1 think I said in my previous evidence that where a hold is not completely cooled down in the first instance it is quite possible damage may occur in the bottom, because it is well known that the tendency of heat is to rise, and it would rise rapidly through the insulation at the bottom if it had not been sufficiently cooled down. 4. Supposing there was extensive saturation of the insulation from the snow melting under the circumstances I have pointed out, would that not lead, in your opinion, to more damage in the lower hold, where the melted snow would be more likely to penetrate into the insulation than anywhere else in the ship?—lt would undoubtedly, provided the sides of a ship were insulated like the walls of a building, and there was no break from top to bottom. The moisture would flow downwards. But Ido not know enough about it to say whether the ships are so arranged. 5. I have a communication here from London by a man of great experience, who states that mutton will spot even though it is kept at a temperature of 24 deg. He has often proved it by experiment. What would your opinion be as to the possibility of spotting at 24 deg.?—l should doubt it. Very careful experiments were made by the people who were experimenting with the chilled meat, and their main trouble arose from the fact that they could not absolutely avoid anything in the nature of mildew or spotting beyond a certain length of time unless they solidified the water. As far as we can understand, the juices of meat do not solidify at 32 deg., as pure water does. They contain in solution a number of salts, and they freeze hard at something between 27-J- deg. and 28-J- deg. Beef, I believe, freezes less readily than mutton. I think it requires a slightly lower temperature. At any rate, all classes of meat freeze at something between 27-J- deg. and 28-J deg. Their experience was that they could absolutely bar mildew by keeping below the temperature that represented solidity, at which the air is completely dry. Ido not think, myself, that you can have any mildew without moisture. Where you get absolute solidity there is no moisture at all. Ido not think you can get mildew without moisture. My own impression, from what I have heen able to see, is that meat would not mildew at a temperature of 24 deg. You have to be very careful to assure yourself as to what the temperature was, and how it was taken, because it is very easy to make mistakes. But I think I will undertake to say that you might leave a sheep in a freezingworks at 24 deg. for, at any rate, twelve months without its showing any signs of mildew. 6. Mr. Buddo.] Several of the witnesses have expressed themselves in approval of inspection in London and rapid unloading into a shed before the selection of the carcases was made for each consignment. Would you be in favour of that ? —I would be in favour of it theoretically, but it is a question of cost. It was suggested several years ago. But people are naturally indisposed to go to any extra expense, especially when experience has shown them that the meat can be carried Home properly and landed properly without any such precaution. If you ask me if I think it would be beneficial, and result in the meat being delivered in better order, I think it would. 7. In the event of the covering being wet by thawing before it gets to the ship's side, would that be likely to cause mildew ? —No. 8. You think the freezing on the steamer would prevent moisture having any effect on the carcases? —Well, you must remember that the interior of the sheep is down to 16 deg. or 17 deg., or even perhaps 12 deg., and as soon as you shut the hold the tendency is for the temperature to become equalised throughout the chamber and in the carcases, so that the bag, if moist from condensation, would rapidly be frozen. 9. Is it true that a deck with iron walls and iron pillars causes the carcases to become damaged ? —I think it would if the metal extended through the insulation to outside. 10. Irrespective of the temperature ? —Yes; simply because the metal would be a good conductor of heat, and the heat would be carried through it. 11. Do you find any difference in the proportions of damage caused at different seasons of the year? —We have fancied generally that the damage was worst when the meat arrived in the hottest weather in London—that is to say, in July. 12. You do not find there is any effect from shipping here in the January and February months ? —No ;we have not noticed it. Of course, we have to take rather more care in the hotter months. For instance, we have to reduce our meat rather lower to ship it then. 13. Then, some attention has been drawn to a shortage of steam-power on board steamers. Has your attention been drawn to anything of that sort ? Has there been any report from the refrigerating engineers on the subject? —I can only say this: that I know, at any rate, of one

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Steamer which had none Coo much power when she carried 20,000 carcases. Since then her capacity has been extended to from thirty to thirty-five thousand, but there has been no increase in the steam-power; but, on the other hand, the boiler-power has been reduced, so that she has really less power now than she had before. 14. The inference is that there would be a shortage ?—Yes. 15. In your previous evidence you mentioned that meat arriving to the charge of a purchaser usually gets better looked after than meat arriving to the charge of an agent ?—Yes. 16. Mr. Flatman.] I think you said tiiat bone-stink could not be detected in a carcase until it was thawed ?—That is so. 17. 130 you think that sheep killed direct off clover have a tendency in them to bone-stink ? — There might be more fever in the blood, and bone-stink would occur more readily, but it could not occur if they were submitted to a cold atmosphere soon enough. 18. Would killing sheep before they were properly cooled down after driving create bonestink ?—I think it would make it more likely, but if the meat were put into a sufficiently low atmosphere, and soon enough, bone-stink would not occur. 19. 1 suppose all the vessels that you send your meat in are cooled down to take the latent heat out of the hold ?—They are cooled down, but, in my opinion, that is one of the weakest points in the whole thing. In fact, the cooling-down of the vessel is so inefficient and so uncertain that it really leaves the record of the ship afterwards almost valueless. The general practice is to freeze down to 15 deg. That means nothing at all. You might reduce it to 15 deg. possibly in an hour or two, but it is quite clear you could not have extracted much of the heat in that time. 20. If a supervisor was sent Home with each cargo, could he get to the thermometers to take a tally of the temperature as recorded ? —You mean on the passage. If he understood the matter he could satisfy himself, because if he were in any doubt he could get the temperature of the return air. Of course, by arrangement with the ship he could get to the ordinary thermometers, but the difficulty about it is they are either dropped into a trunk or else a well between the sheep, and you are probably only taking the temperature of the air of that particular spot. But 1 ■have no doubt a competent man could satisfy himself as to the temperature unless obstacles were thrown in his way. 21. What length of time is meat intended for export going from your chamber to the ship's chamber ?— We endeavour to make the time as short as possible, because the sun is very severe upon the trucks. The insulation of the trucks is effective when they are travelling, but very ineffective when they stop. We try to get within three hours if we can. 22. You think a longer time would be damaging to the meat? —Well, we should find it more difficult to keep the flanks hard. Of course, the flank is the first place that shows a thaw, and the flanks of the sheep on the very top of the truck, or against the walls, will begin to show signs of going first. But we find the sun the most troublesome matter. 23. Mr. McLacMan.] Do you find the insulation in your works deteriorate much from moisture ? —Yes, we did ; we found it deteriorated very much in the building that is now pulled down, and which was thawed and frozen constantly. Speaking roughly, I dare say that in the course of six years it was thawed and frozen again some thirty times, and the whole of the charcoal was more or less moist. 24. Could not the charcoal have been dried?—Oh, yes; it could be dried and put back. 25. Would it be very expensive for the charcoal on the ships to be examined and put back ?— No, I think not, if the lining could be taken off. 26. You say that a sheep could be kept at 24 deg. without mildew'?—l have never tried the experiment, but lam pretty well satisfied it could be. Ido not think there is any mildew without moisture, and there is no moisture at 24 deg. 27. You did not keep these carcases in your works for twelve months to test them for mildew ? —No ; but they were at a lower temperature than 24 deg. 28. There was a remark you made about a refrigerating engineer saying the return air-current was the proper air to take temperatures at ?—Yes; you cannot tell until the air has done its work what the temperature is. Another thing I would say is, I am opposed altogether to the machines on board ship being stopped at regular intervals, as is the case ; I think it is wrong. If it is necessary, I say the temperature should always be taken immediately before the engines are started, because you have then got something like uniform temperature in the hold, whatever it may be, good, bad, or indifferent. But as soon as you start the engines again you cannot get any idea of the temperature until you take it in the return air-current. (Mr. Lawbt, Chairman.) Mr. C. Hudson, Assistant General Manager, New Zealand Railways, examined. Mr. Hudson: In regard to the petition of the Christchurch Agricultural and Pastoral Association, a report furnished to the Committee by the Railway Department, dated the 18th August, deals with this in such a full manner that I have very little to say in addition. I may mention, however, that the cost of railing dead sheep from Islington to Lyttelton is 2-19 d. per sheep, and from Belfast to Lyttelton 2'22d. per sheep. During the course of the inquiry it has been suggested that these rates should be reduced by about 33 per cent., or about fd. per sheep. It has also been shown in evidence that the charges from port of export to London amount to about.7s. 6d. per sheep. It therefore does not appear that either the producer or consumer can possibly benefit by a reduction in the rail charges equal to fd. per sheep. The Belfast and Islington works are most favourably situated. They are in close proximity to the port, and have command of an immense area of sheep-carrying country. While the companies are asking for a reduction in the very moderate railway charges, they are also urging that additional facilities

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should be provided. As to this, I think it has been abundantly shown that the meat is carried expeditiously and in good order by the Bailway Department. Several witnesses have alluded to the desirability of loading, carrying, and shipping meat during the very early morning, so as to commence the work of discharging at Lyttelton at 6 a.m., or earlier. So far as the department is concerned, there are no difficulties in the way of this, and about two years ago this was arranged for; but the companies, although frequently reminded of the proposal, have not usually found it convenient to do so, because it is understood that their own working arrangements are such as to cause considerable difficulty to them in carrying on their business in the manner indicated. So far as the provision of special trains is concerned, the managers have instructions to be liberal, but at the same time reasonable economy must be practised. Special trains cannot be provided when the ordinary trains will suit the business equally as well. The companies have been allowed as many special trains between the works and Christchurch as they required without restriction. Nothing could be gained by means of specials between Christchurch and Lyttelton. Special trains to meet the convenience of both ships and works will always be provided, and, moreover, have been provided, even for lots of from ten to fifteen wagons, when by this means the meat can be carried better than by the ordinary train service. On the flurunui-Bluff Section there are forty five-ton refrigerat-ing-cars and twenty-four double-bogie refrigerating-cars provided exclusively for working this business. These trucks are, in relation to other trucks, expensive to build (£l5O, four-wheeled freezer; £300, double-bogie freezer ; against £85 for an ordinary high-side wagon), and, in respect to tare weight, heavier than any other trucks on the New Zealand Bailways, so that if we consider the value of the article, the cost of transit from New Zealand to London, the provision of special trucks of heavier weight, and which can only accommodate a small tonnage load of mutton per truck, the provision of special trains, and the careful arrangement necessary for rapid transit and to avoid undue exposure—if we consider all these circumstances we must arrive at the conclusion that the rate paid by these companies for the conveyance of frozen meat by rail is a reasonable one and in no way interferes with the successful carrying-on of the business. I may here mention, as evidence of the fact that the department is able and willing to rail meat to Lyttelton during the early morning, that on the 28th July we railed 31 \ vans of frozen meat from Timaru to Lyttelton. This meat arrived at Christchurch at 4.30 a.m., and was detained there until ten minutes to 7, arriving at Lyttelton at 7.18, 7.45, and 8 o'clock a.m. The department was quite willing to rail this meat so as to arrive at Lyttelton at 5 a.m. The freezing company has frequently been asked by the Bailway Department to arrange for taking delivery at Lyttelton at 5 a.m. or 6 a.m., but have informed the Bailway Department in reply that they could not arrange with the ship to do so. The work of discharging the meat on the 28th July did not commence until 7.30 a.m., and was not completed until 1 p.m. As far as this meat is concerned, some of it was standing in the trucks for six hours over and above the time taken in railway transit. Similar remarks apply to twenty-one vans despatched on the sth August. To remove also the impression that excessive exposure of frozen meat from Islington and Belfast for long periods of time is due to delays on the railway, I might give you the following particulars: On the 4th February 25J vans of frozen meat left Islington at 6.5 in the morning; ten vans arrived at Lyttelton at 7.18, seven at 7.45, and eight and a half at 8.5 a.m. None of the vans were discharged before 8 a.m., and the last-one was finished at noon, therefore some of the meat was six hours in transit from Islington to the ship's chamber, of which only from one and a quarter to two hours can be debited against the railway arrangements. lam afraid that an impression has been left in the minds of some of the Committee that the long time apparently taken on this short journey is due to the railway arrangements, but the facts just given you, will, I believe, clear this up, as in no case was any of this meat in transit for longer than two hours. The balance of four hours is entirely due to the rate at which the ship is able to take it on board. Again, on the 20th July we railed from Islington thirty vans of frozen meat, leaving Islington at 6.7 a.m.; 10-J- vans arrived at Lyttelton at 7.15, seven at 7.45, and 12-| at 8.10 a.m. Similar remarks will equally apply to all the meat forwarded from Belfast and Islington. I may mention in connection with both these works—Belfast and Islington.—that the department has quite recently added to the daily train service between Christchurch and Islington, which additional facilities will no doubt be found useful to the Islington works. It is also intended to accelerate and add to the daily train services on the North line from Christchurch, which, while proving a boon to the whole district between Christchurch and Culverden, will at the same time be at the service of the Belfast works. With reference to the Southland Frozen Meat Company, this company possesses two freezing-works—viz., one at Mataura and the other at the Bluff. The slaughtering-yards for the Bluff works are situated at Wallacetown. The Mataura works were opened in May, 1893. Very few fat sheep are railed to the works. None have been railed for the past three months. The sheep pastures are within easy driving distance of the works. The works were located at Mataura because a never-failing and ample supply of water-power was to be obtained there. The company reckon if coal were used it would cost them £2,000 a year for fuel, and that saving in fuel, _■_~ would more than repay cost of railage on frozen meat. It will also be apparent to the Committee that this company pays no freight on coal for freezing purposes, and consequently the Bailway Department derives no revenue from this source, whereas other freezing companies have to pay railage on fuel. The cost of railing from Mataura to the Bluff is 6-23 d. per frozen sheep, and we have been shown that the cost of marketing the sheep is at least 7s. 6d. per sheep. A reduction in the rail freight of 33 per cent., as asked for, which amounts to only 2d. per sheep, will not be of any appreciable benefit to either the producer or the consumer. It has been pointed out to the Committee that the rates for frozen meat in all other parts of the colony are lower than they are from Mataura to the Bluff. That this is not the case is shown by the fact that the rate from Waipukurau to the Spit, forty-six miles, is £1 Is. 3d. per ton, while the rate from Mataura to the Bluff, forty-nine miles, is £1 2s. 6d. per ton. Where the conditions

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are the same the rates all over New Zealand are the same. It has also been pointed out that the rates between Oamaru and Dunedin are much lower than they are between Mataura and the Bluff. It will be within the memory of members of this Committee that the business between Oamaru and Dunedin was formerly carried by water, and it was only by reducing the rates that the railway succeeded in getting the business. The Oamaru and Dunedin people enjoy these cheap rates on account of their geographical position, while the Southland Frozen Meat Company enjoys the use of cheap water-power not available to the people of Oamaru, who have to provide steam-power. To reduce all the railway rates to the level of railway rates in competition with water could not possibly be done, as it would involve an enormous sacrifice of revenue. At the same time, to abandon the competitive business would reduce the revenue, which in that case might have to be supplemented by raising the rates at non-competitive points. So far as the frozen-meat business between Mataura and the Bluff is concerned, it is of a very intermittent character ; frequently no shipments are made for a month. This involves the trucks lying idle or being hauled empty immense distances to earn money elsewhere, and returned also empty to Mataura when again required ; all which work is done free of charge, the company not being charged for fetching the trucks when they require them. Again, comparisons have been made between the cost of railing live sheep and frozen meat between Mataura and Bluff. Taking sixty fat sheep per truck—a large average—the cost of railing live-stock from Mataura to the Bluff is 5-9 d. per sheep. It has been shown that the cost of railing frozen meat is 6-23 d. per sheep. When it is considered that for frozen meat expensive trucks are provided of excessive tare weight, special trains are frequently provided, the trucks have to be fetched long distances, the load in a wagon capable of carrying five tons cannot exceed 3 tons 3cwt. on the average, the difference of -J-d. per sheep is not a remarkable one, and in any case does not amount to an undue tax upon either the producer or the consumer. Comparisons have been made between the grain rate and the frozen-meat rate. It will only be necessary to point out that for grain ordinary trucks available for loading both ways are used. Grain is loaded to the full carrying-capacity of six tons per wagon. No comparison can, therefore, be made between the rates for frozen meat carried in insulated cars in loads of 3 tons 3 cwt. per truck with grain carried by ordinary trains and in ordinary wagons loaded up to six tons per truck. Attention has also been called to the fact that frozen rabbits are carried at half the rates for frozen meat, and it has been stated that if this can be done with frozen rabbits it should be done with frozen meat. In the first place, the rate for frozen rabbits was adopted many years ago after much consultation, and as an encouragement to the starting of an industry which was hoped would have two results—viz., the starting of a trade in preserved and frozen rabbits, thereby giving employment to a great number of men, and being a means of creating wealth and at the same time keeping within due bounds that which had hitherto been a great pest and a costly one to deal with. These facts should, in themselves, be sufficient to explain the difference between the rates for frozen rabbits and frozen meat. But there are other reasons; for instance, the value of the article— rabbits are worth only about lfd. per pound, or not more than half the value of sheep; a load of 5 tons 3 cwt. of frozen rabbits can be loaded in each small truck, against 3 tons 3 cwt. of frozen meat, all of which circumstances explain the frozen-rabbit rate. With reference to the application for reduction in the dead-sheep rate from Wallacetown to the Bluff, I do not think that it has been made sufficiently clear that all dead meat railed from Wallacetown to Bluff is green meat. In many parts of the colony not more than 30cwt. of green mutton can be hung in a truck, and I am quite sure that two tons would be an outside load in any case, so that viewed in the light of these facts the rate between Wallacetown and the Bluff, twentytwo miles, 11s. 10d. per ton, is a very low one, and gives a much lower revenue per truck than grain does. It would be quite impossible to carry on this business at a lower rate if the cost of carriage is to be met. Moreover, the cost per sheep, 3'39d., is not a prohibitive one. Attention has been drawn to the low rates between Ocean Beach and Bluff, a distance of one mile and a half. The special rates referred to are for cased meats from Ocean Beach to Bluff, 2s. 6d. per ton, with a minimum of four tons per truck, and for native coal, Bluff to Ocean Beach, 2s. per ton, with a minimum of five tons per truck; undumped wool is also carried from Ocean Beach to Bluff for 6d. per bale. If these rates had not been made the business could be lightered, or, otherwise, carted over a good road. During the last six months no manures or cased meats have been carried, but 936 bales of wool, 274 tons of tallow, 78 tons pelts, and 141 tons of coal have been carried between these points. In the absence of these rates the business would be lost to the railway. The rates are not exceptional; similar rates under like circumstances are given all over the colony. I will mention a few :—

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Prom To Miles. Bate per Ton. Minimum. Auckland Westfield Breakwater Petone Petone Ngahauranga Dunedin New Plymouth Wellington Wellington Westfield Auckland New Plymouth Wellington ... Wellington ... Wellington ... Burnside . . Waitara Petone Ngahauranga Materials for making soap, &c. Oil, soap, &c. A.B.C.D. ... Cased meat Tallow and pelts ... Cased meat, &c. Oil, soap, &c. Native coal Native coal Coal, any kind 8 8 3 7 7 4 4 11 7 4 s. a. 3 6 3 6 3 6 2 8 3 0 2 6 2 6 3 0 2 6 2 6 2 tons. 2 „ 5 tons. 3 „ 5 „ 2 . 4 „ 4 „ 4 „

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There is also a special rate of 12s. 6d. per ton for fat from Mataura to Wallacetown, which is used by the Southland Frozen Meat Company every day when they are killing at Mataura. The ordinary rate for this distance—thirty-seven miles —is 17s. 9d. per ton. It has also been pointed out to the Committee that reduced rates are in force in Australia for the carriage of frozen meat, and an attempt has been made to compare these rates with those in force in New Zealand. For instance, it has been pointed out to the Committee that the rate for frozen meat from Dubbo to Sydney, a distance of 280 miles, is £15 per ten-ton truck, and it has also been stated that the rate from Mataura to the Bluff would require to be ss. 3d. per ton to be on a level with this. This result has been arrived at by ascertaining the rate per ton per mile for 280 miles—viz., lf-d. —thus the rate for forty-nine miles on this basis would be ss. 3d. per ton. No consideration whatever has been given to the fact that the station-shunting and other terminal charges for the forty-nine-mile journey from Mataura to Bluff are the same as for a 280-mile journey ; in other words, it is assumed that the charge for fifty miles should be one-tenth of that for 500 miles. If this principle were a sound one the charge for fifty miles would be ten times that for five miles. Let us see the position in which this would place the Southland Frozen Meat Company at Mataura. The charge in New Zealand for railing frozen meat five miles is 4s. 4d. per ton. The charge for fifty miles reckoned on above basis would therefore be £2 3s. 4d. per ton, but the rate charged is £1 2s. lid. per ton. The works in New Zealand are very favourably situated in regard to the distance from port of export. The same remark applies to the sheep-pastures. The distances that both frozen meat and livestock are railed in this colony are comparatively short as compared with the journeys which they have to go in Australia. The New South Wales Eailway Commissioners, in their report for the 30th June, 1895, call attention to this. It is there shown that the average distance live-stock are railed in New South Wales is 245 miles, so that, as before pointed out, any comparison such as we have been considering between the rates in Australia and in New Zealand are entirely fallacious. 29. Mr. Wilson.] You state that the rate for 240 miles is the same as for a forty-nine-mile run in the matter of shunting?— Yes. 30. But it makes a difference in the freight ?—Yes, it makes a very great difference. 31. We had it in evidence that the freezing company did all the -work. They loaded and unloaded the wagons at the terminus, and all you had to do was to rail the meat and place it in such a position that you could take it away ?—That was the inference that was to be drawn from what was stated. 32. Is that the case ?—No, it is not. In the first place, an order is given for the trucks, and they have to be fetched, no matter where they are. They may be at Oamaru sometimes, or they may be at Dunedin. They have to be hauled to Mataura. They have to be shunted to the works for the purpose of loading, to be shunted out when loaded and placed in the siding according to the position they have to be in the train. They are then taken down to the Bluff; they have to be placed alongside the ship, and there also be tallied by a man who is paid by the Eailway Department. So that there are services rendered apart from mere haulage. 33. But it is a part of your business to shift trucks about for the use of the freezing-works. You must make a general average for the works ?—Precisely ; but that brings us to the fact that the charge is the same for a one-mile journey as for a thousand-mile journey. The terminal charges are alike. 34. But I think that would be unfair?—ln framing a special rate, every railway has to consider what the cost of carrying would be. In framing a rate, the manager would be, naturally, very much influenced by the amount of business he expected to get. If he could work his trucks full both ways it would be a more economical business to carry on than if they had to be full one way and empty the other. 35. You said that very likely those trucks would have to come from Dunedin or Oamaru. Does not that show that your service is undertrucked ?—I do not think so. If you require a special truck of the expensive character that we have just seen from this statement which I read it follows that you would have to make a calculation as to whether it would be better to leave that truck lying idle for the whole of a month or take it elsewhere to earn money in the meantime. 36. Even then, if you are not investing your capital in these trucks, surely you ought not to charge that special rate ?—The rate that is charged is not a special rate, it is the ordinary classified rate for the New Zealand Eailways. What has been urged is that a special rate should be given. The rate now charged is the ordinary rate that is charged under like conditions elsewhere in New Zealand. Where rates are varied there are special circumstances which probably compel the variation, otherwise the business could not be carried on. 37. Then, either the petition is wrong or you are wrong. For the forty-nine miles from Mataura to the Bluff the rate is £1 2s. 6d. per ton, and for the forty-eight miles from Waipukurau to the Spit, or from Woodville to the Spit, the rate is £1 Bs. per ton, according to the petition?—l think it is right. The distances are very similar, and it is comparing one similar rate to another. 38. Waipukurau —whose freezing-works is that ?—I am not quite sure whose they are ; I believe they are Nelson's. 39. Does he own the trucks ? —He does in the case of Woodville. Ido not know about this, but I believe so. 40. I did not quite catch the Waipukurau rate ?—With regard to the owners of wagons, they are allowed a mileage allowance, so that it does not affect the rate at all. The rate is the same, but Mr. Nelson gets a mileage allowance for the use of his wagons. 41. How many miles is Waipukurau from port ?—Forty-six. 42. And the rate is?—£l Is. 3d. 43. Mr. Buchanan.] It has been stated in evidence that special trains, numbering thirty trucks, are taken as a rule from Islington, and I think you yourself stated that you have never made any difficulty as to granting special trains numbering only fifteen or twenty trucks ?—I said ten to fifteen.

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44. Is it correct or not that the Railway Department have refused to grant special trains of a less number than thirty trucks to the Islington works ? —I am not aware of it. Mr. Gaw, I think, made that quite clear in his evidence. 45. Are you not aware that Mr. Anderson, manager of the Islington works, gave it in evidence that he frequently found it impossible to get special trains with a less number than thirty trucks?—■ I do not think he was particularly strong on that point. 46. Are you aware of the time it takes to load a truck ?—To load it ? 47. Or discharge it ?—I think you would discharge it more quickly than you would load it. To load a truck of meat, I suppose, would take about twenty minutes. 48. Are you sure it would not be half an hour ? —I am not sure. 49. Even at twenty minutes would it not take an excessive time to load up a special train of thirty trucks and discharge ? Would not the meat be placed at a disadvantage if it were to stand that length of time, first at the loading-place, and secondly at the discharging-place—say, ten hours in each case at your own rate of loading—twenty minutes per double-bogie truck? —Yes, perhaps ; but if that truck was standing in the shed, and was loaded at night or in the early morning, it has been shown in evidence that it would not be affected at all. 50. Ten hours at the loading-point, ten hours at the discharging-point, and the number of hours (whatever it may be) occupied in travelling?—lt has been shown in evidence before this Committee that the meat has gone in perfect order from Mataura to Lyttelton. 51. In the summer time ?—I do not think that was brought out. 52. Was it in the winter?—l do not think the season of the year was mentioned. 53. As a matter of justice to an important industry, would you not think that the Railway Department should, on request, furnish at any reasonable time a special train for any number not less than ten trucks ? —We have already stated that we will supply special trains for from ten to fifteen trucks. 54. And you deny the statement made in evidence that you have refused ?—We certainly deny it, with this qualification, which I have already stated: that if the ordinary train would suit the business equally as well we would not run a special, but if a special train would suit the company's business better than the ordinary train we will give it free of charge, other than, of course, the ordinary freight charges. And we have done so. 55. Can you suggest why a freezing company would ask for a special train if, knowing the time-table of the ordinary trains, the ordinary trains would suit as well ?—You yourself would find it very much more convenient to travel about by a special train if you had it waiting on you, and could get into it at any time. It is more convenient to any man to send his goods by a special rather than an ordinary train, because the special train is waiting his convenience, and he has not to tie himself down to any special time or make any special arrangements. 56. Are you not tied down somewhat in arranging for special trains ? —Not always ; it depends entirely on what trains there are on the road. 57. It would not do for a special train to disarrange the ordinary train service ?—At certain times of the early morning and of the night there would be no difficulty in giving a margin of perhaps twelve or more hours between the actual time of starting and the possible. 58. As to the Mataura Freezing-works, were you here when the figures were given showing that the reduction of the railway freight for live sheep had given an advantage to one of the competing companies in Southland of per sheep ?—I am not aware of any competing company unless they refer to the Ocean Beach Freezing-works. 59. In giving particulars a little while ago showing that there was only -J-d. per sheep difference between the freight for live and dead sheep from Mataura, did you take into account the wool, the pelt, the fat, and the manure?—No, I cannot say I did, for this reason : In the case of live sheep it is railed in the ordinary truck, and there certainly is not anything approaching the same expense as there is in carrying frozen meat. I should put that as a set-off against the carriage of the products, and the difference would be very small too. 60. But would not your statement, showing fully this difference of -Jd. per sheep, be valueless if you did not take into account all that was involved—the wool, the pelt, the fat, and other items that have subsequently to be carried to port as well as the frozen meat ?—I do not think it would be valueless ; I think it comes very closely and approximately. You could not estimate the cost of carrying other things unless you knew where they were going. 61. Supposing I put it thus: You admit the -J-d. handicap on frozen meat as against the carriage of live sheep ?—I do not call it a handicap. 62. Call it an excess then?— That is so, according to the statistics at our command. 63. Then, would not the Mataura Freezing-works have to pay on all the wool, on the pelts, the fat, and other items that would have to be sent to the port ?—Yes; but only in the same way as other freezing-works. 64. The Ocean Beach Freezing-works, for instance?— The Ocean Beach would not pay such high rates for the products to the port, the mileage being shorter. 65. The Ocean Beach Freezing-works have all these items included in freight paid on the live sheep ?—-Precisely; but at the same time they do not have the same amount of work done for them. 66. No, but that is a separate consideration. I am talking now of the cost of getting each sheep in the two separate conditions,' frozen and alive, from Mataura, say, to port. So that it is a fact, is it not, that in addition to the Jd. difference the Mataura Freezing-works would have to pay freight upon wool, pelt, and other items which are carried inclusive with the live sheep to the Ocean Beach Freezing-works ?—Provided they went to the same place they would. 67. You said that the Mataura Freezing-works estimated to save so much by using water instead of coal. Supposing that were correct, do you think the Railway Department is justi*

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fied in taking account of legitimate profit the Mataura Freezing-works might have been able to make from being able to use water instead of steam-power ? Is that a consideration which should be taken into account by the Eailway Department ? —The Eailway Department have not taken it into account. I have shown that quite clearly. 68. In making your statement, I understood you to say that, as a saving was made by using water-power, the Mataura Freezing Company was not handicapped, seeing that it had that saving to come and go upon? —As I understand it, you ask, Has the Eailway Department taken advantage of the Mataura Freezing Company by making a high rate between Mataura and the Bluff because they have good water-power ? My answer is, No. We have not put on a rate higher than the ordinary classified rate in New Zealand. 69. Supposing the Eailway Department determined to still further lower the rate on live sheep, do you think it would be fair to do so, with the result of crushing out a company such as the Mataura Freezing Company ?—I should think that it would be highly improper for the rates of any State railway to be framed for the purpose of crushing out any business. 70. I mean having such an effect ? —That is a matter for future study. We are not at all likely to further reduce the rates on live sheep. This is not at all likely to be done, in view of the fact that the department has already made a concession equal in value to something like £10,000 a year. 71. It has been stated that water-carriage from Ocean Beach to the Bluff was impracticable?— I have sent a telegram to the railway manager to inquire as to that point, and he says it is possible, but improbable. I have no doubt whatever that the traffic would be carried by road. 72. You say the railway rates from Ocean Beach on certain produce had been reduced to half, because otherwise the railway would lose traffic? —I did not say so. I said that special rates had been granted between Ocean Beach and the Bluff to secure business which otherwise would not have been obtained. 73. It has been given in evidence that the rates had been reduced by half. Is that correct ?— I did not go into that point at all. I remember it being stated that the wool rate had been reduced by half. Ido not think the other rates were reduced by half; in fact, lam sure they were not. We will take the case of coal. The charge for carrying native coal from the Bluff to Ocean Beach is 2s. a ton.' The ordinary rate for native coal is 2s. 6d., so that in the case of coal only 6d. has been taken off 2s. 6d. 74. Do you think the railway is justified in further handicapping the Mataura Freezing-works by such a reduction, as in the case of wool?—I do not think it is a question affecting the Mataura Freezing-works at all. If that wool was carried at 6d. a bale by the road, and the railway charged Is., it would not benefit the Mataura works in the least. It makes no difference to them whether the wool is carried by the road or the railway. 75. Would not the Ocean Beach works be able to offer an additional price on every sheep it bought equivalent to the saving it made through the reductions granted by the Eailway Department on these articles of produce?— Not in view of the fact that they could be carted for the same money. It does not enter into the question at all. I can only answer the question from the railway point of view; and from that point of view the fact that these rates prevail does not in anyway affect the Mataura works, seeing that the traffic can go by road if not by rail. 7.6. Can you assure the Committee, of your own knowledge, that this produce can be carried by road at the same rate as is charged by the railway ?—As to that, I think I can throw a little light on the subject. Between Auckland and Westfield the depirtment has been requested to reduce its rates still further. The rate is now 3s. 6d. per ton. There is an additional rate of Is. Bd. for carting. But the department has been repeatedly urged to reduce these rates, on the ground that they can get cartage at a lower rate. That is practically four times the distance, and a very heavy road. 77. Ministers for Eailways have stated again and again in the House that they were unable to reduce freight upon wheat for short distances in Canterbury, which is now carried by tractionengines, because if they did they would be running that portion of the traffic at a loss ?—I hardly think they have stated that. Of course, lam not answerable for what Ministers for Eailways say in that case. I think I should have a better answer myself in that case. 78. Can you assure the Committee that this traffic from Ocean Beach to the Bluff is not carried on at a loss at these low rates? —I am quite sure it is not. Situated as these works are, I consider it is a very reasonable freight to get for the business. 79. In the case of wool, you think it is a reasonable rate to reduce it by half ?—I do. It amounts to about 3s. a ton. 80. Supposing, for instance, you reduced the coal by half instead of taking 6d. off the 2s. 6d. as you stated, could, you then carry the coal at a profit or without loss ?—ln the case of coal, I think I have shown that it was reduced from 2s. 6d. to 2s. The wool-rate at 6d. a bale is higher than that. However, the question does not hold good. If the wool-rate at 6d. pays, of course the coal at 25., being less, would not pay as well if you got the same load per truck. 81. In your opinion, is the wool-rate any too high, speaking generally, throughout the colony? —I do not think that is a fair question to ask me. I could answer it, but it might lead to other questions of the same kind. 82. In the case of frozen rabbits, it has been given in evidence that a special rate has been granted upon them, with which I suppose you agree?—l do not know that I agreed with it; I pointed out the reasons why it was given. 83. Will you tell the Committee whether the frozen rabbits are carried at a loss at the reduced rate or not ?—You are asking a question now which is of such a complex character that we should have to open up the whole question of railway-rates and the method of obtaining revenue by railways. I do not wish that you should take any rate by itself. You must take the rates as a whole. You might say, Why do we carry road-metal cheaper than pig-lead ? If we

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can carry the one at 2s. 6d. a ton, and the other at 25., we ought to be able to carry the pig-lead at the same price. 84. Then, you are unable to deny that the reduction of the railway-rates on live sheep had made a difference to the Mataura Freezing-works of 2Jd. as in competition with the Ocean Beach works, as was given in evidence ?—I should say that was absurd. 85. Would, you not think that an unfair handicap, seeing that it enabled the Ocean Beach Freezing-works to bid 2 Jd. more for every live sheep and still be on a level ?—lt seems to me this is quite apart from the railway. These variations will always occur with the different firms. It would be simply impossible to carry on the business of the Eailway Department if we were prevented from reducing rates to settlers all over the colony because it would affect a particular freezing-works by reducing their income £100 or £200 a year. 86. Seeing that a reduction of the railway-rate on frozen mutton would extend the business of the Mataura Freezing-works, and equally benefit the settlers as to the reduction on live sheep, would it not have been a fair thing to proportionately reduce the freight on frozen mutton ?—That is very easily answered : Because it would not benefit the settlers at all. Any reduction we might have made to assimilate this particular rate you are speaking of to the exact quotient of the livesheep rate, including all by-products, would not benefit the settlers at all. It would be so inappreciable that it would never find its way either to the producer or consumer. 87. Seeing that it has been given in evidence that the difference amounted to 2Jd. per sheep, will you explain to the Committee your reasons for believing that that 2|-d., or any part of it, would never reach the producer ?—I have not seen it explained in the first place how that 2|-d. is arrived at; neither do I agree with it. 88. The items making up the 2-Jd. were given here in evidence to the Committee?— But it must depend upon the lead, it must vary with the lead —the distance the traffic goes. Therefore, when you say that makes a difference of 2-Jd., that is a wild and unsatisfactory statement, because the lead varies all over the colony. 89. No ; but on that distance —from Mataura to the Bluff ?—I do not agree with it myself. 90. Mr. Buddo.] I think you contend in your evidence that frozen meat is carried as cheaply as grain ? —'No, Ido not say that. I said that the revenue earned from each truck of grain would relatively compare with the revenue earned from a refrigerating-car. 91. Would not that be owing to the -fact that frequently you get a return freight with the empty wagons that carry meat ? —Not only a return freight in the case of grain, but we get 6 tons in one bottom in the case of grain, and we do not average more than 3 tons 3cwt. in the case of frozen meat. 92. You will no doubt be aware that not more than 5 per cent, of the empty return graintrucks carry freight ? —A great number of them are empty. You mean when they return from the port. A number of them, of course, are used. 93. As well as the difference which lies in the fact that the one truck will carry 6 tons and the other truck has only room for 3 tons 3cwt. ?—3 tons 3cwt., I said, on the average. 94. Do you consider, then, as a railway expert, it is to the advantage of the railway system to have a differential system of rating where the traffic is likely to extend ?—Yes; under certain circumstances it is necessary. I should have to consider the conditions in each case before I could give an answer. 95. Mr. Wilson.] Under other conditions, not?— Under other conditions it might not be. 96. Mr. Buddo.] The system of managing the whole is that, in carrying the frozen meat and other articles in connection therewith, such as pelts and fat, you act on the principle of making the railways return so much per annum ?—Not entirely, so far as I understand it, and I have been connected with the department a great many years, during which the policy has not varied. It is that, so far as the colony can afford it, the railways are to be used as an agency for the settlement and progress of the country. But then, also, the question of revenue comes in, and it is that nice point which you have to determine in making rates —to satisfy both sides, namely: the settlement and progress of the country, and at the same time maintain the financial equilibrium. 97. Irrespective of the fact that the trade would be likely to extend, you must still levy certain rates?— That would entirely depend on what the loss of revenue would amount to. If it would amount to hundreds of thousands a year, the lowering of rates would have to be abandoned; but if the concession amounted to but a small sum, the loss of it could be faced ; and if it was very desirable indeed to reduce such a rate in the interests of the colony as a whole it would be done. It is entirely a question of degree, and as to whether the amount in question is a large one or a small one. 98. Are you aware that a large proportion of the hides, fat, and preserved provisions from the Belfast works are carried by road to Christchurch ? —I dare say they are; I know that has been done in other parts of the colony. 99. Have you considered the question of making a differential rate so as to attract the traffic to the railway ? —The probability is it could not be done, because some of the people have carts that have to do a certain amount of carting; and, as they have to go into the centre on business, they would take these small products in by road whether or no, and you would not induce them to send an empty cart into Christchurch by giving them a cheap railway-rate. 100. Mr. Flatman.] Have either the Belfast or Islington Companies refused special trains at any time?— They have. 101. If you were told that they refused them on purpose to save the railway trouble and expense, would you think that correct ?—Well, I would not like to say anything ill-natured about them at all. I would rather not reflect upon them in the least. All I can say is, we have been advised that they have frequently been urged to work their business by special train, and they have told us it would be inconvenient for them to do so, and they would not require a special.

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102. Is the same class of engines used between Mataura and the Bluff as between Waipukurau and the Spit ?—Yes ; but it would not be correct to say on every train. The same class of engines are running between Waipukurau and the Spit as between Mataura and the Bluff, but they might vary on some of the trains because there are a number of classes of engines. There are some additional types between the two lines you mention. 103. Would it take a stronger engine to draw the same weight between Waipukurau and the Spit than it would between Mataura and the Bluff?—No ; speaking generally, I should think the Edendale bank is a worse bank than you have got between Waipukurau and the Spit, because the Te Aute grade on the Napier line is a favourable one towards the port. 104. What did it cost the department to provide trucks to meet the extra demand on cheapening the rates on live sheep ?—The work is not finished yet, so I could not tell you. It is going on every day. There is an enormous increase of business, as you no doubt are aware. There was sufficient increase of business to earn slightly more money than we received for a smaller quantity in the previous year. 105. If hides and wool went to Christchurch by rail from the Belfast and Islington Freezingworks, I suppose in some cases they would have then to be carried from the station to their destination ? They would have to be twice handed ? —That is so. 106. Is it a fact that, while a live sheep only costs 6d. from Mataura to the Bluff, a frozen carcase costs BJd.? —The cost of a frozen carcase, I think I said, was Taking the whole of the year's business, and therefore the average for the year, the cost of railing a frozen sheep from Mataura to the Bluff was per frozen sheep. 107. And not 8-J-d. ?—Certainly not; that is wrong. 108. Mr. McLachlan.] Mr. Wilson asked you a question about providing an additional number of refrigerating-cars to meet the trade for Islington and these other companies. Do you think it would pay the railway to provide these cars, and have them standing empty a long period? —I think it is better to do as they are doing now. 109. And you have never heard any complaint of meat being carried even the longest distance suffering deterioration or damage by faulty refrigerating-cars ?—So far as our information is concerned, we have had no complaints whatever except, as has been stated over and over again before this Committee, within the last few months. A question was raised two or three months ago, and that is the only time, so far as we are aware, that a question has ever been raised about the trucks being wrong. And even then the complaint was made only in the general way. No instances were given. 110. It has been distinctly stated that you had imposed certain rates for the purpose of crushing some particular industry, but you maintain now that you have not in any case instituted rates with a view to crushing a particular industry ?—Would it be necessary for me to reply personally Mr. Buchanan : Might I be excused for saying my questions have been entirely misunderstood. If it was thought that I accused the Eailway Department of attempting to crush any industry, that would be entirely incorrect. It was, Whether it would have the effect of doing so. The two positions are entirely different. The Chairman: As I understood Mr. Buchanan, he was making no accusations; he was asking-questions for the purpose of eliciting truth. Mr. Hudson (to Mr. McLachlan) : In answer to your question, I may say I have been connected with the Eailway Department over sixteen years. I was in the service at the time of the reorganization of the Eailway Department in 1880, when the whole of these tariffs were gone through, and revised, and put on their present basis very largely by Mr. Maxwell and myself; that I have taken a very great interest in the rate question during the whole of these years; and that I indignantly repudiate any inference whatever that anything corrupt has ever been incorporated into the rate-book, within my knowledge. On the contrary, the tendency is to restrict the tariffs of the department for fear there might be any inference of the character alluded to being made. 111. Mr. McLachlan.] Are you aware, have you heard at any time—this is a corollary to another question as to handicapping—especially in Canterbury, that a great many of our conservative farmers employ traction-engines for haulage purposes at not less cost than the railway would do so ? Have you ever heard that they are employed largely by the conservative farmers of Canterbury for haulage purpose in competition with the railway ?—I suppose lam obliged to answer you; but I could not answer if you use the word " conservative." If you say " farmers," I would say, we are aware that traction-engines are being employed to do carting at the railway-rates. I think it is only fair I should, in justice to these farmers, point out that even then the farmer has an advantage with a traction-engine, because he gets the produce taken from his premises instead of having to take it to the railway-station. So that, if the railway-rate and the traction-engine rate were the same, he would still have that slight advantage. But there is one point in connection with this which might be of interest to tell you, and that is, there will always be a certain amount of carting done in that way. If you are thirty or forty miles from the nearest railway-station, it gives the carter the advantage that he can come up and bargain with the runholderto take his wool down to port; and he can practically go to the runholder and say, "If you give us the cartage of your wool to the port, our rate will be so much; if you only give us to the nearest railway-station, it is within a fraction of the same amount." 112. I understood you had a special rate for carriage from Ocean Beach to the Bluff to attract the traffic off the road. Have you reduced the rate throughout the colony ?—I think I gave you several cases where special rates were given, and the reasons. 113. Have you reduced the railway-rate from to Timaru in order to compete with the road traffic? —Yes ; for wool,

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114. You still deny that the difference between the live-sheep and the dead-sheep rates between Mataura and the Bluff is 2£d. ? —On the average, it is not. 115. And you deny that the policy of the railways has been altered since 1880?— Not in the least. 116. Mr. Duncan.'] With regard to that Waipukurau branch that you mentioned just now: Is there an extra charge made upon a branch line ? —On certain classes of goods, and on certain branches, there is a branch charge. 117. Not on all?—No, not on all. Only on certain classes of goods, and on certain branches. You must remember this : that between Duntroon and Hakateramea the railways were constructed under the District Eailways Act, and taken over by the Government, but the balance of the railway from Oamaru was built by the Government. Mr. Duncan: No, it was not; it was constructed under the Provincial Council as a tramway at first from Dunedin. Mr. Hudson : Well, that is how it stands in our books. There is a branch charge between Oamaru and Duntroon, the same as there is a branch charge on nearly every branch line in the South Island. 118. Mr. Duncan.] That was on wheat, for instance ?—No, I think not. These are the merchandise-rates, not the grain-rates. Then, when you come beyond Duntroon as far as Hakateramea —that is the district railway I spoke of—then you have got another branch charge, not in addition, but a different branch charge under the District Eailways Act. But then that does not touch the grain that you spoke of. 119. Is it not a fact that they have to pay Id. per ton on mileage on grain on the branch line from Kurow to Oamaru more than on the main line from Waimate to Oamaru ? —lt is not correct. 120. Just the same price ? —Yes. 121. I wish to know if the Ngapara line was similarly dealt with?—lt is exactly the same. It comes immediately after Duntroon in this book, and it is dealt with in the same way. 122. It is a revelation to me to know it is the same charge on the branch lines as on the main line ?—No, Ido not say that. You misunderstand me entirely. 123. I asked you if it was the same charge from Duntroon to Oamaru per mile as is charged from Waimate to Oamaru on the main line ? —No, you said from Ngapara. Will you put it again ? 124. Is the price charged on the branch line from Kurow to Oamaru the same charge as from Studholme Junction, say, on the main line?—On what kind of goods? 125. Grain, wheat ?—Exactly the same. 126. On grocers' stores, for instance, is there any difference ?—Yes —that is to say that, taking a similar length of line on the main line and an equal length of line on the Duntroon and Ngapara lines, grocers' stores have to pay Id. per ton per mile, added to the charges which prevail on the main line. But, as I said before, that does not apply between Duntroon and Hakateramea. That part of the railway is treated quite differently. 127. Mr. Buchanan.] When I asked you whether a general reduction on railway freight on live sheep did not have the effect of handicapping the Mataura Freezing-works, did you understand me to charge the Eailway Department, either directly or indirectly, with doing this designedly ?— Certainly not. What I understood you to say was this : Had we taken into consideration the fact that it would have that effect. 128. Mr. Wilson.] One of the witnesses—-I think, Mr. Anderson—stated that it was much more important to his company that they should receive the advantage of having small special trains than receive a reduction on freight—that is to say, it would be of much more importance to him to get a ten-truck special train than to have a reduction of 33 per cent, of 2-J-d. I gathered from the evidence —I think, from what Mr. Gaw said—that he was prepared to give this train ? —Not that he was prepared, but that he had been prepared during the last twelve months ; that he had urged them to use these trains, and they had not been able to do so ; and that they had had special trains of ten trucks free of special charge. 129. You are prepared to say they can have them at any time ?—I should have to qualify that as before, but with that qualification our answer is, "Yes." The qualification is that we will supply special trains without restriction to the Belfast and Islington works, always provided that such will give them better facilities than the ordinary train-service. That refers to the journey between Islington, and Belfast, and Christchurch —not between Christchurch and Lyttelton —because there is such a very frequent train-service between Christchurch and Lyttelton that it is quite unnecessary to have special trains on that road. 130. But the point I want to have clear is about the ten-truck train business?—So far as the provision of special trains is concerned, where it can be shown that they will suit the company and the trade better than the ordinary train-service, they will always be supplied, and no difficulty will be placed in the way because the train does not exceed ten to fifteen trucks in size. No difficulty has been placed in the way during the last twelve months. 131. We have had it in evidence that the sheep-grower on the West Coast is considerably handicapped in the price he can obtain per sheep through the Manawatu Eailway-line, which is in the hands of a private company. Is that according to your knowledge ?—I know it must be so in respect to the Manawatu growers of sheep, and the farmers of Feilding and that neighbourhood, because the rates are cheaper on the Wellington-Masterton Eailway than on the through journey from the West Coast to Wellington, via the Manawatu line. I know it is a fact that there are two journeys charged for in respect to the Feilding-Wellington journey—viz., from Peilding to Longburn, and Longburn to Wellington. 132. Is there not a further charge because the Manawatu Eailway Company have not followed the Government in the reduction of rates ?—Yes; that is because the company have not reduced

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the rate from the double-floor rate down to the single-floor rate. The Government has given this reduction on the Wanganui and Wellington Government lines. 133. Could you give us any idea of the amount of that additional charge ?—Taking from Feilding to Wellington, I think, as far as my memory serves me, that formerly it was a difference of about 9s. 9d. per truck, and now it amounts to about 15s. lam not quite sure of the amount. 134. About that reduction in wool to Fairlie that Mr. McLachlan mentioned : How many miles is it ?—Thirty-nine miles it is charged for. 135. Will you tell us the reduction that is made on that ? Is it about Is. 6d. ?—You mean on the wool. Is. 6d. per bale. 136. That is in consequence of the road reduction ?—Yes. 137. You stated that the sum granted to the colony in the shape of the reduction in freight on live sheep was equal to £10,000? —It was on last year's business. 138. You continued afterwards to say you have earned more money ?—-Yes. 139. I should like you to state that distinctly, because the one will not read with the other ?— I said it was worth that to the sheepowners. I think it is quite clear that, if we carried the same number of sheep last year at the rates which existed before the reduction was made, we should have had at least £10,000 more revenue, and therefore it is a concession of at least £10,000 a year to the sheep industry. 140. Then, you qualified it by stating that you earned more money from the fact that the reduced rates brought you more business ?—By earning, Ido not mean net profits. A man may earn more money, and still at the same time his profits may not be so large. 141. But you actually are earning more money, even at the reduced rates for sheep carried in the colony, this year than last ?—Not for the same number of sheep. 142. I say generally that you are carrying more sheep now, and at the present rate you are actually getting more for the department ?—The position is this : that since the rates have been reduced a very great number more sheep have been carried, and that the receipts for that volume of business slightly exceed the receipts of the previous year for a smaller volume of business. 143. Mr. Buchanan.'] You say that £10,000 have been saved to stockowners owing to the reduction ?—Yes ; the number of sheep has been so large that the revenue at the low rates has been the same, or slightly more, than at the high rates in the preceding year. 144. Is that not an imperfect basis of calculation? —Not entirely. Ido not think it is. 145. There would be some point, would there not, where, on short distances between the grazing places of the sheep and their destination, the cost of sending them by road on the one hand, and rail on the other would be about balanced ?—Possibly. I do not know the cost of travelling sheep, they vary so much according to locality. 146. Would it not follow that a good proportion of the increased number sent by rail at the reduced rate would be so sent at no advantage at all to the sender ?—I could not answer that question. I have no doubt you know a great deal better than I. I can only state generally, as I have done, that if the business were the same at the higher rates as it has been at the low rates, the railway revenue would be £10,000 more for the year. 147. Mr. Duncan.] Would you state the actual numbers carried ? —I could not without reference to my papers. 148. Mr. Flatman.] In what part of the colony do you carry most road-metal ? In the North Island or in the South Island? —We carry most in the Invercargill, Wanganui, and Auckland districts. 149. Do you think there is more carried in the North Island than in the South ?—I would not be prepared to say. It is fairly well distributed in the way I have told you. 150. It is carried at a paying price to the railway ?—That is going into the question that has been put to me so frequently to-day. As I pointed out before, the basis of railway rates is so intimately connected with what the traffic would bear as well as the cost of service, that it would be utterly impossible for any man to show you the exact profit of carrying a certain article at a certain price. Therefore, a general statement that it pays or does not pay is not worth much. 151. Is it your opinon that it is an advantage to the settlers at the price you charge ?—The rates for carrying road-metal for public bodies has been fixed quite irrespectively as to whether it is a paying rate or not. It has simply been fixed at a price which it was believed could be paid by the public bodies for the improvement of their roads, and, while taking due consideration from the railway point of view, that the construction of roads is an advantage to the railway, and in that way it is justifiable to give such an extremely low rate. 152. Mr. McLachlan.] Do you consider that the reduction of the rate for sheep was an inducement to increase the number sent by rail ?— Yes; but if I were to answer that question, and lead you to suppose that the total increase in the number of sheep carried is entirely due to the reduction in the rates, I should not be expressing a correct opinion, I believe a part of it is due to the reduction of the rate, but not the whole. 153. And have you to incur large expense in order to meet this traffic ?—Very large expense indeed, many thousands of pounds in rolling-stock, and not only in rolling-stock but in locomotivepower. 154. Mr. Duncan.] Do you expect to have the same number to carry in the coming year that you carried last year ?—I should think about the same, but I should very much doubt having more. The indications are that we shall get the same number so far. There is not the same elasticity that there was last year. 155. The reason why I put this question is that it will be known to the Railway Department that a number of sheep were carried from North Canterbury to supply the greater number of deaths that occurred at the Waitaki Plains, and in that direction ?—Yes, but the large increase in the sheep traffic was long before that.

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156. The Chairman.] I suppose, under no circumstances, could you compete with watercarriage in the matter of carrying wool ? For instance, are you aware that people did grow wool at Hunterville, rail their wool to Wanganui, and then send it round by water ?—Yes, I am aware of that. I understand wool has been carted to Mangaonoho, railed to Wanganui, and shipped to Wellington.

Thursday, 3rd September, 1896. Mr. Hudson's evidence continued. Mr. Hudson : In regard to Mr. Buchanan's question as to whether I considered Mr. Thompson's estimate of 2-J-d. per sheep advantage at live rates, as compared with dead-sheep rates, a fair estimate. so far as I can learn, Mr. Thompson pointed out that the cost of railing the carcase, offal, wool, and tallow, Mataura to the Bluff, was 7'7Bd. per sheep ; and of railing the live sheep, s'9d. per sheep; a difference of l-88d. per sheep; or, as he has stated generally, 1-J-d. per sheep. I stated, in reply to Mr. Buchanan, that I did not think the difference could be anything like 2Jd. per sheep. I have since confirmed that impression, and now give the following statement for the information of the Committee : Dead meat and products, Mataura to Bluff: Frozen sheep, 6'23d.; slipe wool, 61b., 0737 d.; pelt, 41b., 0368 d. ; tallow, 51b., 0602 d. : total, 7'937d. per sheep. Compared with the following charges for Ocean Beach Works: Mataura to Ocean Beach—Live sheep, 5-Bd. Products, Ocean Beach to Bluff—Frozen sheep, 521b., l-114d.; wool, 61b., OoBd. ; pelt, 41b., 0-053 d.; tallow, 51b., 0067 d. ; Manure, Ocean Beach to Mataura, 51b., o'l9Bd. : total, 7'312d. per sheep; making a difference in cost per sheep of 0 - 625 d. It will be seen that Mr. Thompson has not taken into account the transit charges from Ocean Beach to ship's side at Bluff. This makes a great difference, the carcase alone costing over Id., and, practically, makes the comparison of no value whatever. The difference between the two rates is, as already pointed out, inappreciable from the producers' point of view. The following points in favour of Mataura and other country works as compared with freezing companies' works at or near ports of shipment might also be given : (1.) A proportion of fat sheep railed are invariably refused-for freezing, but full rail rates have been paid on such sheep, the products of which might have been railed at very low cost in the form of wool, tallow, &c. Country works drawing sheep supplies from immediate neigbourhood of works do not have to contend with this loss and difficulty. (2.) Country works can make and sell all their manure on the spot, where it is used; whereas Ocean Beach works and other port works must rail the manure inland. In his estimate, Mr. Thompson neither added the wool, nor the pelt, nor the tallow, nor the cost of railing the frozen carcase from the works to the port. He does not take credit for the manure either. In the case of up-country works, such as Mataura, 1 think I pointed out that no sheep whatever have been railed to Mataura during the last three months. In the same way the manure is easily disposed of in the immediate neighbourhood; whereas the port works have to rail the manure inland, which is a disadvantage to them. 1. Mr. Wilson.] Who pays for the freight inland ?—lt depends entirely. If the manure is sold carriage-paid, of course the company pays; if the consignee buys it direct, then the consignee pays. 2. What extra work have you to do for the Ocean Beach? Have you special trains, ordinary trains, or what ?—We have ordinary trains, and special trains, according to the volume of the business. The ordinary trains running between Invercargill and the Bluff are quite capable of dealing with the ordinary business. If there was an unusual amount of business on any particular day, additional trains would have to be put on to cope with it. 3. Mr. Buchanan.] 1 understood you to say that you were not satisfied as to the correctness of Mr. Thompson's statement that his company had been placed at a disadvantage of 2Jd. per sheep owing to unfair relative railway rates on frozen-meat trucks as against live-stock trucks ?— No, you have misunderstood me. I did not understand your question to be that at all. What I understood you to say was this : Is the difference between the charge per sheep live, and the charge per sheep dead, if the cost of railing the products are added to the charge for the dead sheep, as much as 2-Jd. I said, No ; I did not believe it was. Your question was in no way relating to the reduction of the rates that had been made on the live sheep. Mr. Thompson alludes to the existing live-sheep rates in making a comparison between the live- and dead-sheep rates. That is what I understood your question was about. Mr. Buchanan : No; we have evidently been at cross purposes. What I understood Mr. Thompson to put was that, owing to the reduction of the railway-rates on live sheep lately brought about, his company had been placed at a disadvantage of about 2fd. per sheep as compared with, for instance, the Ocean Beach works. Mr. Hudson : That cannot be, because in Mr. Thompson's evidence he says that the present cost of the railage of the carcases, offal, wool, and pelt from Mataura to the Bluff is 7'7Bd. per sheep, and of railing the live sheep s'9d. per sheep, making generally speaking, he says, difference per sheep. He does not refer to the lowering of the sheep-rates in making this estimate, but certainly spoke about assimilating the existing live and dead-sheep rates. There was no question involved as to the act of the Government at that point. Subsequently, you dealt with the question of the lowering of the live-sheep rates ; but at this particular point now under consideration the comparison was one entirely as between the existing live-sheep rates and the dead-sheep rates. Mr. Buchanan : What was in my mind was this : that in the Southland meat-works, according to Mr. Thompson (and as far as my information went I agreed with him), whether the disadvantage amounted to per sheep or not, the disadvantage to that company was a very serious one. That was the point which I had in my mind. Mr. Hudson: That was not put to me, and if it had been put to me I should have dealt with it on the general principle of lowering a rate all over the colony ; because it is quite unreasonable to 12—1. 9.

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suppose that the live-sheep rates could be lowered and the dead-sheep rates maintained without its affecting, not only the Southland Freezing Company, but a very large number of people all over the colony. * 4. Mr. Buchanan.] Must it be altered if you have to consider whether a company, as in the case of the Southland Freezing Company, does most of its railway work with frozen sheep, or does most of its work with live sheep, the Government is equally bound to do justice to them both ?— But I have shown in this statement that there has been a total absence of equality in comparing these rates. For instance, while the dead-sheep rate from Mataura to the Bluff is debited with the extra products, such as wool, tallow, and pelt, comparison is made with the live-sheep rate to the Ocean Beach works only ; whereas the latter works have to rail the dead sheep and its products to the ship's side equally with the Mataura works. So that, in comparing these rates, there is a difference of considerably over a penny, which you have debited in the one case, and not added on in the other. 5. You are now dealing with Mr. Thompson's figures?— Yes. 6. As far as I am concerned, I only wish to ask you this : As to live sheep coming to the Ocean Beach works, a distance of forty-seven miles, from the Mataura district, and as to frozen sheep railed for that distance also, you have made a reduction of roughly 20 per cent, on the live sheep, but you have made no reduction whatever on frozen sheep. Is that so ?—Yes ; that is so. If you are going into the question of assimilating the live-stock rates, and the dead-meat rates, you must also remember that the man who is producing beef would have to be considered ; and if the rate for beef is assimilated to the live-stock rate it would have to be nearly one-half the rate for mutton. Therefore you would have a man sending a leg of beef to town at half the rate per lb. for a leg of mutton. 7. I do not think the question of dead-meat rates arises ?—lt arises very materially, because, as a matter of fact, the weight of live-stock in a truck in the shape of bullocks is double what it is for mutton. Therefore, the rate for beef in live-stock must be half the rate for mutton. 8. Can you deny that when the Mataura works were established your live-stock railway-rate was such that the Mataura works would necessarily take the relative railage rates on live and dead sheep into -consideration when deciding to put the works there? —Of course it would be impossible for me to deny that, because I do not know what was in their minds at the time. 9. Since the establishment of their works at Mataura, you admit, do you not, that whereas the live-stock rates were reduced by, roughly speaking, 20 per cent., no reduction whatever was made on the railage of dead meat ?—Yes, certainly I do. I admit it exactly in the same way that I admit there is no reduction made on silk, or a dozen other articles. 10. Whatever the reduction per head that has been made on live-stock for that distance, it must necessarily handicap the Mataura freezing-works, in its local operations, in competition with the Ocean Beach freezing-works?—l could not answer that question, in that form, for this reason : If it handicaps them in its operations as against the Ocean Beach works, then prior to the reductions on the live sheep the Ocean Beach works must have been prejudiced in relation to the Mataura works as to their live-stock. The thing cuts both ways. 11. In other words, you contend you have only made a proper reduction as far as these freezing-works are concerned, when you made a general reduction of the rates all over the colony ?—We did not take into consideration these companies at all when we reduced the live-stock rates. The position of the two companies is that there is a very trifling difference between the live-sheep rates and the dead-meat rates when they are properly compared —not amounting to fd. a sheep. (Mr. Lawey, Chairman.) Mr. W. G. Buchanan, M.H.8., gave evidence as follows: In 1889 and 1892 I was for a considerable time in London, and visited the docks repeatedly, in order to see the condition of our frozen meat and dairy produce on arrival, and its treatment upon discharge, and subsequently during distribution in London. I found instances, even quite early in the morning in cold, wintery weather, of the temperature in the ships' holds while discharging meat being up as high as 36 deg.—in other words, 4 deg. above freezing-point. The snow lying about amongst the carcases consequently got quite soft, in some cases actually melting. On remonstrating with those in charge, the excuse was made that the men refused to work in the holds while the machinery was running. I will leave you to picture what must have been the state of meat handled in this way during the summer time in the sweltering heat of London at that time of the year. On both occasions I have mentioned I was at Home only during the cold weather. The excuse that the men would not work while the engines were running would not hold water, because I was informed of several instances to the contrary. It therefore really means that the shipping companies wish either to economize fuel, despite the consequent damage to the meat, or that they do not care to face the difficulty of compelling their men to work while the refrigerating-engines are running. On more than one occasion, also, I saw sheep lying about on the deck and shifted repeatedly during the process of sorting out the brands and marks of the various consignments. Many carcases were thus damaged by thawing whilst exposed to the atmosphere, and by being knocked about and getting dirty on the deck of the ship. In discharging the meat into barges, which in nearly every case have only a little deck-insulator, I have known cases of their lying alongside a ship for three successive days before being able to complete their cargo of the brand they were taking, with the result that the whole of the top carcases became quite soft. Here I might say, as evidence of the difficulties attaching to this trade through the monopoly which the dock companies have in the Port of London, that at that time, at all events, they absolutely refused to allow any barge to enter into the docks which was possessed of steam-power. The result was that some of the barges which were fitted with cooling-apparatus worked by separate steam-power were compelled to leave it outside the gates

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of the docks, and could only avail themselves of it when they had loaded and gone outside the dockgates again. The object of the dock companies was, of course, to compel all consignees of meat to discharge it into the dock companies' refrigerating-dock stores rather than into the frozen-meat stores established in various parts of London. The result of alternate freezing and thawing after the ship had commenced discharging was, of course, to damage the appearance of the meat. I can only describe its colour in the worst cases as a sort of whitey-brown colour, distinguishable at a glance from the fresh and bright appearance which characterizes ordinary frozen meat dealt with in a proper manner. I have known meat, evidently of good quality when first frozen, to be thus depreciated in value at least Id. to IJd. per lb. I frequently went down into the holds of various ships during the process of discharging, and took notes upon the spot of the damage that was being done by the rough and reckless handling of the men who were loading the meat into the slings, and in some cases noted as many as one in ten of the sheep having legs broken and otherwise injured through being thrown about like billets of wood. The wrappers were also constantly being torn, and in some cases completely stripped off. The common practice was to dump the sling on the deck of the ship and then send the carcases down a shoot into a barge, railway-truck, or open wagon, as the case might be, and very little care taken to remove the carcase from the bottom of the shoot quickly enough to prevent the one immediately following from crashing into it like a battering-ram, breaking more legs and tearing more wrappers. So great was the damage from this cause that I insisted upon having a special representative to attend to the discharge of my own consignments, and in every account-sale I had a special charge made upon me for his services. I have seen hundreds of legs of mutton in Smithfield Market having exactly the appearance of being skipped down a stony hillside—the fat and flesh all chipped and broken ; and, in the case of ordinary carcases, it is quite common in Smithfield Market to see the delicate outside skin hanging in shreds, owing to the rough knocking about it gets at various stages. Once, also, I watched the discharge of a lot of New Zealand beef stowed in the bottom of the hold on the pig-iron ballast. The quarters of beef were rolled over and over from all parts of the hold over the rough, angular pig-iron towards the slings under the hatch, and the hold resounded again to the ring of this frozen beef while being thus battered about. No attempt whatever was made to carry the meat, or to protect it from violent contact with the rough pig-iron, which composed the ballast of the ship. That, in short, was the brutal treatment I witnessed again and again during the discharge of meat from ships in the Port of London. •I remonstrated again and again as to the class of men they employed, who were, as a rule, such as we happily do not see in the colonies. Physically, they were, for the most part, unfit for a day's work, and any member of the Committee can imagine what the result must be when such men attempt to handle a load altogether too heavy for them. The men also whom the shipping companies have in charge are not of sufficient intelligence for such a class of work. To illustrate the calibre of some of them, I may mention that I went down the hold of one of these ships on one occasion and found sheets of ice hanging on some of the carcases, and coating the iron stanchions of the hold. I endeavoured to find out what had been the cause of this, but absolutely failed to discover it. The superintendent in control of the men on board, however, gravely assured me that it was caused by the " sweating "of the iron, evidently believing his own statement. I leave any member of the Committee to judge of the class of intelligence employed by the ships to superintend the work at the docks. I strongly urged upon the dock and shipping companies the enormous advantage it would be to have large dock warehouses fitted with endless chain or other machinery for discharging the ships at a minimum of expense, and handling in the same way as in the grainelevators of America. Under such a system there would be a minimum of damage to the meat. All that would be required would be to place the carcases one by one upon an endless chain on the deck, which would convey it to any compartment of the building ashore without any possibility of damage whatever. In other words, sorting of the various marks could be done from the slings on the deck, and, automatically, each carcase conveyed to its appropriate stack in the warehouse ; and the subsequent distribution could similarly be effected to barges alongside, to vans carrying the meat to Smithfield, or to railway-trucks going to any part of the United Kingdom. The cost would also be very much lessened alike to consignees who barged their meat to stores up the river, or to those who required their meat conveyed to any part of Great Britain. The dock Companies promised to consider the question, and I am given to understand that they have since put up a warehouse, but only of such limited dimensions that it does not nearly supply the requirements of this enormously-increasing trade. In my opinion, no effort should be spared to effect the combination of the freezing companies here, so as to bring pressure to bear upon the ships and upon the various handlers of the meat in London to give proper treatment to all perishable products, such as meat and dairy produce. Until that is done the producer here must suffer great loss from year to year, because it is obvious that on his shoulders it must eventually fall. The trader in all such produce will look to the average amount of damage he is likely to sustain, and reduce his price to the producer accordingly. I do not know that there is anything else I need refer to. It may be stated that my evidence is out of date, and that various improvements may have been effected during the four years that have elapsed since I visited London. My reply is that lam not aware of any great changes or improvements that have been made, and I would point out to the Committee the ample evidence laid before them of the large amount of damage which is constantly taking place both on board ship and on arrival at the Port of London. 12. Mr. Montgomery .] Is there any combination such as you suggest?—l am not aware of any combination as between the various freezing companies of New Zealand for the purposes I have named. 13. I do not gather, from what you said, that you gave any suggestion as to remedying this carelessness in handling the meat in London ? What do you propose should be done ?—That the companies should combine and send Home a representative, who would be able to bring pressure to bear upon the people who handle the meat at Home, in order to effect an improvement.

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14. Are not the owners of the ships liable for the proper handling of this meat on board the ships ?—Nominally they are ; but shippers find it almost impossible to obtain any redress. 15. You think combination among the freezing companies here in having an agent at Home to look after this would be the only means of getting a remedy ?—I do not say it would be the only means, but I think it would be the most effective means. I may point out that a statement has appeared in the papers lately that the Islington Company has sent Home a representative. In fact, it was given in evidence by Mr. Gilbert Anderson, manager of the Islington Company, that they had sent Home a representative to look into these matters on behalf of their company. 16. Mr. Flatman.] Do you know if the dock companies have altered the system of discharging since your visit Home ?—No ; Ido not. 'To the best of my belief, the discharge is still conducted in the brutal manner I have described. 17. Do you think it feasible to discharge the meat by means of an elevator, as you have suggested ?—Meat is handled in America and in London by means of elevators, and very successfully. 18. In discharging cargoes? —lain not aware that they are used for discharging cargoes ; but, in my opinion, there is no practical difficulty in the way. 19. You visited cargoes that were being discharged in London from other countries, I suppose ? —Yes ; from South America and Australia. 20. Were they handled in the same way as our meat was ? —ln Liverpool, where the South American meat is mostly landed, the arrangements were much superior to those in the Port of London. The rapidity of discharge was very marked. As an instance of the antiquated methods still submitted to in London, I might mention that I saw steamers actually being coaled by the ordinary hand-winch. 21. You think, if a combination were formed, it should be one of the first things suggested to them to see that there were better means for discharging cargoes of meat ? —Yes. 22. Mr. Buddo.] I think you stated you were in favour of discharging vessels by an endless chain or elevator into a refrigerated store on the wharf. Do you mean that you would discharge the whole of the cargo into a shed on the docks, and then distribute from there ?—Yes. 23. That might lead to a more favourable condition of the meat than the present system of discharging into barges or otherwise ?—Obviously. The temperature of the hold would thus be prevented from rising in the day time above freezing-point, and being put down again at night to the great damage of the appearance of the meat. 24. Do you consider the present system of sale by agents to all purchasers, irrespective of what meat they sell in the retail shops, is advantageous to the New Zealand producer ?—I think that the system of sale is better left to private enterprise, just as with any other class of goods. 25. Then, you consider it would be to the advantage of the New Zealand frozen-meat trade if the brokers were instructed to deal with on!y those who would sell nothing but New Zealand meat ?—No, Ido not; because butchers' shops established for the special purpose of selling any one class of meat have not been found to be a success. Those retailing American beef have found that in order to conduct a successful business they must sell other classes of meat as well as American beef, and the same rule would apply in the case of butchers' shops whose first object would be to dispose of New Zealand meat successfully. They would have to sell beef, and other classes of meat, so that family customers could supply all their wants at one establishment. Eastman and Co., of New York, for instance, have hundreds of shops for the primary purpose of selling American chilled beef, and are also sellers of both South American and New Zealand frozen meat. 26. Then, if an inferior class of meat was sold in butchers' shops that probably have advertisements in the window and on the door of New Zealand first-class mutton, it would no doubt tend to considerable profit for the retailer?— Yes ; but this, in my opinion, would be more than made up by the enhanced price no doubt frequently obtained for New Zealand meat when sold as English. What I mean is, that where a butcher sells New Zealand meat as English-grown, he thereby secures a large profit which would at once increase the demand for New Zealand mutton, and raise its price. 27. Would that apply, considering there is only a small portion of our meat described as tegs and small served-down mutton, Which can be considered to come into competition with the English-grown meat ?—The benefit to New Zealand meat would, of course, be proportioned to the quantity which could be sold as English mutton. 28. Mr. McLachlan.] You were speaking about the condition under which the London dock companies allow the work to be carried on : Does it not occur to you that the competition of Liverpool and Manchester would tend to break down that ?—To some extent it would, but experience has shown us that the great bulk of New Zealand mutton is consumed in the South of England, rather than in the Midland or Northern Counties. The Northern Counties, contrary to what was at first thought, prefer, in the main, the lighter sheep that come from Australia and South America, rather than the heavier and fatter carcases from New Zealand. It is therefore obvious that Liverpool would not be a good port of discharge. 29. Then you said you found it necessary to send a man especially to look after your consignment in London ?—Yes, I had to arrange it. 30. Have you found it to your advantage to do so—that is, have you found the average price for your meat was better than the average for the other meat from the same ship through this? —I could not quote any figures showing that exactly, but I believe that the presence of a special agent acting for me has had the effect of lessening damage such as I have described. 31. You mentioned, some time ago, that pig-iron was put into the bottoms of the holds and the carcases of meat put on top of it?—l do not quite understand. 32. You stated you saw one case where beef was the lower tier of the frozen meat, and that the men in the hold rolled it over rough bars of pig-iron and damaged it. Does such a,

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thing obtain now as having pig-iron uncovered ? —Not that I am aware of. The freezing companies, I think, now take care not to allow meat to be stowed in that way. 33. That was four years ago ?—Yes. 34. The Chairman.'] You have no doubt about the effect that would result from sending an expert Home who would look after the frozen meat?—l have no doubt at all; and if he was so authorised as to be able to put himself upon proper terms with the dock and shipping companies, it would compel them to respect his position. To illustrate the absolute necessity for an accredited agent of the frozen meat companies having such a standing, on one occasion I was on board one of the frozen-meat ships in the London docks, when a representative of a New Zealand freezing company excused himself for leaving the ship because he did not happen to have any meat on board that particular ship, and he feared that the manager of the shipping company, who was then coming on board, might object to his presence there. I turned to him and said, "Is it possible that you, the, representative of an important freezing company in New Zealand, should for a moment think you have no right to be on board this or any other ship carrying New Zealand mutton ? Surely you underrate the importance of your position, and should stand your ground against every shipping company in London." 35. You think it would not give the man a higher status if it was a Government appointment ? As it is more or less a national question, do you not think the Government should contribute something towards the cost of such inspection ?—lt would be impossible to draw the line between an appointment for the frozen-meat and dairy industries, and doing it for all descriptions of produce. I think —this is merely my own individual opinion—that the Committee should be chary in recommending Government interference except where it is absolutely necessary. I have here an extract from a letter received by a settler in Otago, which goes on to say, " There is more damaged mutton going to the market now than there used to be ; and I think this accounts for the cry about inferior quality more than anything else. A Wellington expert in London who has been engaged in the trade since its inception says this damage is done in the ship, and I think he is right. He also blames the larger steamers for taking too long to load and unload. For example, the ' Aotea' here just now has been unloading for over three weeks, and is not half empty yet. She is unloading a good deal of bad stuff, and, no wonder, when her hatches have been open so long, and the men here object to work when the machinery is going. There is no doubt this question of damage must be taken up properly. You will get a list showing the ships that have carried damaged cargoes. The meat is condemned by English Government officials, who are fair enough, and -it is a pity they do not condemn more, as it is the partly-damaged meat that goes on the market that gives the mutton a bad name." Mr. J. Mynott examined. John Mynott, of New Plymouth, butter-trader (who gave evidence in lieu of Mr. Brash), said: In the mutton trade I have not had much experience, only I have been Home to England twice, and when there I made inquiries as to the prospects of the trade and as to the satisfaction our mutton and beef gave the English community. The carcase most suitable for the English market is the ordinary nuggety sheep. Of course the British working-man does not want to pay for bones, and some of them do not want to pay for too much fat —a thing which it would be as well to remember. My own suggestion to some of our farmers is to grow a smaller carcase for the English market, which I understand is the most suitable. [The witness here read and put in letters from various Taranaki farmers and others, including one from Mr. Brash, manager of the New Plymouth Co-operative Association.] I will refer back to the year 1890, when everything was very low in our district, dairy-cows selling at from £2 10s. to £3 10s., and we felt it necessary to do something to put ourselves in direct touch with the English market. I went Home, at my own expense to a large extent, secured a lot of valuable information, and came back with substantial credit from good English firms and with capital advanced for our undertakings. The result of this was that instead of our farmers getting from sd. to 6d. per pound for their butter, as in 1890, they got from 7d. and Bd. to 9d. and 10d. in 1891. It put up the price of our suburban lands and enhanced the value of dairying 150 per cent., and for two or three years our district made very rapid strides, and it is still making progress. I was the means of bringing out Messrs. Lovell and Christmas (Mr. Cohen is the firm's representative), and it has made a wonderful difference in the district. He has spent £100,000, I should think, every year since he has been out here. Other independent buyers and representatives from Home firms have also come over. 1 found when I went Home that our butter went through too many hands. I suggested to the Agent-General that what was wanted was a New Zealand despot, if we could manage it. Most of our farmers who ship here require advances, and I suppose the Government would hardly hk'e to take up the advancing of money for this purpose at the present time. But if it were done I believe our farmers would obtain the highest possible prices for their produce. While I was at Home I went over a great part of Great Britain. I went to Manchester, Glasgow, Cambridge, Portsmouth, and several other large centres of population with a view to opening up trade direct with the counties, in order to save the expense of the commission agents in London. As you know, all our consignments are sent to London ; then, when the London market cannot consume all we send, it is sent down to the centres of population in the counties. The London agent, of course, gets his commission, and then the agents in the counties also get their commissions. Whether this is shown on the account-sales or not lam not prepared to say. In some cases it is not. And then I find another evil at Home—l speak from personal experience in this matter. When I went Home last time I took with me a large quantity of factory butter, and I received an advance upon from four hundred to five hundred packets of butter from a gentleman in Wellington, and the instructions were to sell the butter if a good price could be obtained for it, but if I wished, and thought better, to wait for a better market to avoid making a loss. I got the representative of a London firm to sell this butter for me.

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I told him I should largely have to depend on his judgment, and if he thought by storing the butter he could obtain a better price to do so. .He decided to sell. I naturally concluded when the butter was sold I should get the account-sales, and be able to check the charges. He expressed a wish to open up trade, saying this was just the class of butter he wanted. 1 said, "If you find the money I will find the butter." I could not, however, get the account-sales, nor any satisfactory information from the firm. They said, "We do not recognise you in the matter at all. We shall simply send the account-sales to New Zealand, and you will get the particulars when you get back." I thought this method of doing business very irregular, and wrote pretty plainly to the firm about it. I am just pointing out how our products are manipulated at Home. There have been a good many complaints from our farmers about the firms at Home, and the way they deal with the butter consigned to them. They say these large firms fix their own price, and we cannot get redress unless something is done by the Agent-General and his staff in the way of instruction and getting information as to prices that are obtained. Of course, I know it will not be admissable for any one to go into the merchants' sale-room and interfere directly, but it might be done by Mr. Gray if he interested himself in this matter. I think he would be able to find out the prices obtained for the various consignments sent Home. This would be a considerable protection to our factories and large producers, and be the means of doing much good. Here is a case in point last season : A gentleman connected with the Maungarei Co-operative Factory wrote to a brother in London and asked him to call on a certain place of business in Smithfield Market, and buy some boxes of their butter and send out a report astoquality and suitability fortheEnglish consumer. This brother did so, and the salesman told him the butter was all sold and gave him the prices obtained. The brother afterwards wrote out to his brother here mentioning the facts, and also giving the prices. But when the account-sales go out the factory people find there is a difference of 2s. a hundredweight between the prices returned and what the butter obtained. Two shillings a hundredweight may be a very small thing, but in reality it is a very serious matter, and it would amount to a considerable sum during the year. Then, there is another matter I want to point out. There is a general complaint among our small producers that the present Dairy Act is detrimental to their best interests. There are several vexatious clauses that want remedying. I have suffered under one clause myself. I was before a Committee yesterday on a matter I should like you to know about. I shipped a lot of butter from my nephews at Okaiawa and at Waitara. They have three or four factories. I got fifty-six boxes from one nephew for sale in the colony; but while in transit from New Plymouth to Wellington the conditions of sale were not complied with, and the butter was put into the freezing-works here. We understand from the expert that butter for sale in the colonies does not require to be branded with an ordinary Government brand; it is sufficient to state whether it is dairy, factory, or creamery butter. Eighteen boxes of this butter w r ere not branded. Mr. Thornton communicated with my nephew, the nephew referred him to me, and I communicated with Mr. Thornton at once, saying the eighteen boxes that had not been correctly branded had better be left behind. I thought I had done all that was required ; instead of which, Mr. McEwen sent me a letter saying I had violated the Dairy Act, and his duty was to prosecute me. I was very much astonished, but I waited. Next day, or the day following, I had a letter from Messrs. Skerrett and Wylie, intimating that prosecution had been entered, and I would be required at Wellington. This put me to the expense of £28, and I had no more intention of violating the Dairy Act than of jumping into the sea. I just want to say that some of the clauses in the Act want amending. I give the Government credit for the best intention to help the farmers; but, at the same time, it seems to me a Liberal Government is carrying out Liberal measures by Conservative servants. The sooner these clauses are altered the better it will be for our small, struggling farmers. Another point is, the farmers are not allowed to brand their butter " Separator." Separator butter is manipulated just the same as creamery and factory butter, only in smaller quantities, and my returns from England prove that separator butter has in some cases made 4s. or ss. per hundredweight more than factory butter. It stands to reason that a man will do his best to keep up his reputation. It is an injustice to our small farmers that they are not allowed to brand their butter as it really is, but must put on " Dairy butter." We understand dairy butter to be that made under the old pan system. It is not just to some of our farmers, who have spent, perhaps, £200 or £250 in putting in machinery, that they should be compelled to mark their butter " Dairy butter," when it is virtually made the same as factory and creamery butter, only in smaller parcels. Mr. McEwen suggests that only first-class butter shall be frozen at Government expense. This, I contend, is detrimental to the interests of the small farmers, for this reason : The factories have better facilities for cooling their cream and making a better class of butter, I admit, under ordinary care. The business is falling into the hands of large companies. We are trying to break up these monopolies, because I think you will agree that they are against the best interests of the country. It has been my object for some years to break up the clique in our district, and I have in a measure succeeded. I have been attempting it for this reason :If the trade is left to a few they will keep down the producer at starvation wages, and three or four men derive the whole benefit of the season. At the same time, it is in the interest of all loyal citizens and good subjects to see that prosperity is spread throughout the district, and does not fall to the few. Therefore, I say that the suggestion of Mr. McEwen, Chief Dairy Inspector, to freeze only first-class butter is opposed to the best interests of the small farmers. You will find among the letters lam leaving you, remarks on the subject by several farmers. One other thing: Many of our farmers have been greatly dissatisfied about the testing of the milk. Although Mr. Cohen, in his statement to the Times, the other day, stated that he guaranteed 2fd. to the milk-suppliers, I must mention that none of the milk-suppliers to the Crown Dairy Factory have received that price this season. It has been 2d., 2Jd., and not more than So Mr. Cohen is wrong when applying to our district. The only farmers who have received these prices have been those who have co-operated. They have received as much as 3J-d. some of them. [Balance-sheet of Midhurst Dairy Factory put in.] We have had an exceptionally

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good time this season, and have obtained good prices for our butter. But the suppliers are not satisfied with the test, I understand. Mr. Mcßwen appointed a chemist in one of the Auckland dairy districts to test the milk, and if the Committee can recommend this in New Plymouth they will be conferring a great boon on our struggling settlers. Ido not wish to reflect on the Crown Dairy Company; I believe they are honourable men, but they have to trust their servants to test the milk, and I suppose it is only human nature to study No. 1 first; and I have no doubt the servants of the Crown Dairy Company endeavour to make the testing of the milk favour their employers rather than the producers. 36. Mr. T. Mackenzie.} What have the Committee to do with that ?—I suppose you can make a recommendation. This is already done in Pukekohe. I read in the Auckland Weekly News that Mr. Mcßwen had arranged to get a chemist there to test the milk for the Auckland Dairy Association. The -same thing might be done in New Plymouth. The farmers would be quite willing to pay the expense incurred by having an independent practical man to test the milk on their behalf, and a recommendation from the Committee would go a great way towards getting this desirable thing done. I would like you to understand I wish to give the Government credit for what they have done, although I have written rather strongly on the matter, and I myself have been one of the prime movers in getting this Dairy Act. There is just one other matter : I found when I was in England that great prejudice had arisen against our butter from the fact that many of our shippers had sent Home ordinary dairy butter collected from the small farmers in small quantities, and which they had blended and marked " Warranted pure factory butter." As a consequence the butter was inferior. It was not factory at all, and ought not to have been branded as such. It created great prejudice against the butter, and I was questioned very closely by some large firms at Home on the matter. 1 interviewed the late Hon. John Ballance when I came back, and I was one of the prime movers to get this Dairy Act brought into existence, and I am one of the first to be punished under its laws. Ido not think the grading has not done good; I know it has, but no man's judgment is infallible, and in some cases I know butter we have passed at New Plymouth as second when it gets to Wellington has been passed as first-class by Mr. Thornton, and vice versa. But I have dealings with some English firms, and they trust to my judgment about the butter and allow me to draw accordingly. In many cases my invoices and letters have gone to England before I knew the result of the grader's report. This sometimes puts me in a very unenviable position, because the butter, when it reaches Home, is sometimes found to be graded different from what I had stated it to be. I have not had the opportunity of explaining to them at Home by the same mail, and they think, perhaps, we are knaves or are not acting straight in the matter. Ido not say grading is not necessary, because I believe it is ; but the less we tamper with butter once it is packed up in a box the better, for if the air gets to the butter it very soon gets rancid. If the grading is to continue, I would strongly suggest —and I am backed up by our farmers in this—that the Government refrain from branding butter first, second, and third. It really does us no good, and it prejudices the butter in the London market; for even if the butter is good, and is marked second or third, it creates a prejudice in the mind of the buyer. Also, the six-weeks' passage makes a wonderful change in the butter. So that while I commend the Government for acting with the best intentions, I think several of its enactments should be altered and vexatious clauses taken out. [At the conclusion of his statement, Mr. Mynott put in several more letters bearing on the subject.] 37. Mr. Wilson.] You say grading has done good?—I believe it has. 38. And you want it done away with ?—I would not have it done away with ; but if the butter is graded I would suggest that it should not be marked first, second, and third, but should be sent Home simply on its own merits. 39. How can you grade butter without marking it in that way ? —You can declare whether it is satisfactory or not. 40. In the case of this butter that you speak of having been marked differently here than what you had made it out to be to the Home firm, could you not have made a stipulation to the seller that it should be first-class Wellington butter ?—But I buy the butter in Taranaki, and pay the first-class price for it. 41. But it is very frequently the case that you buy first-class goods subjecc to the grading ?—I did that for some time, but the sellers in New Plymouth objected to that. They say, seeing that it is good here and when it gets to Wellington it is graded " second," we will not sell the butter unless you take the responsibility here. I should prefer to buy the butter subject to the grader's report. I may point out that we shall be in a better position this year to handle our butter, seeing that we shall have freezing-works both at Waitara and New Plymouth. We shall not have the risk of sending the butter down by the coast in a steamer. 42. Is it not likely injury may take place in the butter when going down in a steamer ?—I would not deny that, as when the butter gets heated it may damage it to a certain extent. 43. Hon. Mr. Montgomery .] You buy the butter on your own judgment ?—Yes. 44. And the grader sometimes does not agree with your judgment?—No ; he puts down what we buy as first as second, and sometimes what we call second he calls first. 45. Do you think it was due to your association alone that the increased price was given for butter in your district between 1890 and 1891 ? Was it not because the quality of the butter improved? —No ; that might have had something to do with it, but it was the fact of having one or two independent buyers in the district. If the whole trade were confined to two or three men with capital, in order to protect themselves they will not give the highest possible price; but with an independent buyer they put butter up for competition, and thus the best possible price is obtained. 46. From your experience at Home you feel the producer does not get the best results ?—I am sure of it. Here is another case in point : Mr. Webber went Home with me in 1891. He is new to this line of business, but he had an idea there were fortunes in it, and so he went Home, repre-

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seuting Messrs. Cox and King, and they consigned a large quantity of butter to him. When he got Home he did not know how to manipulate his butter, and he came to me and suggested that he should hand his consignment over to Mr. Page, of Brewer's Quay, and he would pay freight. He put several consignments into the hands of a firm in Tooley Street, and he had several lots of butter sold by this firm. But he had an idea he was not being treated fairly, and one day when the principal of the firm was at the Police Court, he took the opportunity to look into his letter-book (I do not approve of this course myself), and he found out that his butter had been sold to a merchant in Whitechapel, who had paid Bs. per cwt. more than what they had returned to him. He made the circumstances known to me, and asked me what to do. I inquired if he had received his money from the firm.. He said, " No. " I said, " You tell this gentleman you are in possession of information which proves he has not given you a proper return for what he has sold the butter at, and unless he does so you will expose him." He acted on my suggestion, and the commission agent-got out of it in this way : He said, " The first lot of butter I sent to Scotland and lost money over, so I thought I had a perfect right to recoup myself on the second lot." 47. You think the broker who sold it really pocketed that difference of Bs. ?—I am sure of it. 48. Then there is an idea that the brokers and buyers are in collusion ? —ln some cases I have no doubt of it. It is a very serious matter. 49. In this case of Bs., the broker himself had evidently put all into his own pocket?—No doubt, besides the charge of his commission. 50. You think there is a good deal of it—that the broker and buyer often are in collusion to swindle the shipper and seller ?—I am sure of it, and that is why I suggest that the Agent-General should, if possible, put a man on the alert. I have suggested to our farmers that it would pay them to have a man in London who would watch the interests of the shippers. 51. Would not that be too general a commission almost ? Would not the best check to a thing of that sort be to have a reliable man there who is a good judge of produce, and who would be able to tell the value of the different quantities'?— That is what I mean. Of course it is impossible .to send Home a man to handle our butter. 52. What I am after is merely a check as between buyer and seller'? —I think it would be worth while.to send Home a man who thoroughly understands New Zealand produce, to watch the different consignments and to get at the actual value of the butter wholesale when it arrives, and then if there is any discrepancy between the returns at the close of the season and the actual value of the butter they have got some hold upon these people or some remedy. 53. I suppose you know that several co-operative associations in New Zealand have now a man at Home whose work is to sell on their behalf and check brokers?—l was not aware of that. We have not any from the North Island as yet. 53a. Do you think if the shippers in the North were aware of such an agency they would take advantage of it ? —I think they would take advantage of it, but I think they will send Home a man this next season with that object. Each factory will subscribe a certain amount. 54. You said the Liberal Government were carrying out their work by Conservative servants ? —I meant they were rather arbitrary. I think there is a little too much red-tapeism. 55. What would you do with the man you sent Home?—l would have him entirely separate from Government opinion. 56. And from Opposition opinion, too? —I would. 57. But, joking apart,'do you not think a man would carry out his duty in a public function honestly, apart from the powers that be ?—He ought to do so. 58. But you do not think they are doing so under the Dairy Act?— When I went Home two or three years ago I went Home at my own expense ; and, without being egotistic, I claim to have done much good for the country, and I have testimonials, a gold watch, &c, to show what the North Island farmers thought of me. I brought Mr. Buchanan : I rise to a point of order. 1 would ask, If this Committee is going into questions of political colour, when are its labours likely to end ? The Chairman : I understood Mr. Mynott to mean that the Conservatives had been Conservatives not as party Conservatives, but that they had been too conservative in carrying out the strict letter of the Act. Mr. Mynott : I do not wish to reflect in any way on the Government or any members of the Conservative party. Mr. Flatman : I understood it quite differently—that the Government had been too generous in appointing Conservatives to overlook these matters. Mr. T. Mackenzie ; The words were, " That the Liberal Government was carrying out their work by Conservative servants," and the implication was that settlers were not getting justice done them in consequence. Mr. Wilson : I would suggest Mr. Mynott should alter that expression. 59. Mr. T. Mackenzie.'] You object to the freezing of the- best quality only of the butter ?—I think if the butter is to be frozen, seeing that the graders' and buyers' opinions differ, and the farmers really have to pay for the grading of the first-quality butter, it is playiug into the hands of the factories. Ido not object in a measure to pay a premium on first-class butter ; but seeing the Government grader's judgment is not infallible, I do not think the entire decision should be left to him. There was one class of butter that Mr. Thornton passed as second and third, and some as very inferior. I sent this Home, and it made 9Jd. per pound, and paid the farmers better than if they had sold their milk at 2|-d. On the freezing of the butter I would like to say a little more. Mr. George suggested and Mr. Spragg seconded a proposal that the Government be asked to grade only first-class butter, and that the second-class butter should be paid for by the producers themselves. As Mr. Adlam points out, Mr. George's suggestion was evidently from a selfish standpoint, as they are the largest, and Mr. Spragg the next largest, dealers in butter; for the farmers were

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asked to pay for the freezing of the Auckland Dairy Association's and the Crown Dairy's butter, and they must pay for the freezing themselves. 60. But if you do away with the present system of grading, what would you suggest should take its place ? —I do not object altogether to the present system of grading, only I object to the grader branding the butter first, second, and third, which does us no good. 61. Then, what indication would you put on the packages?—l would simply put no indication at all. I would allow the butter to be sold at Home on its own merits. If it is branded second and. third it gives the buyer in London an opportunity to play with the seller. 62 In other words, you would not grade ? —I would not brand it. Ido not say lam in favour of doing away with the grading altogether. 63. But if you are in favour of the grading, surely you must be in favour of some mark being put on the packet to indicate the class it belongs to ?—Not necessarily. 64. On the other hand, would you allow all the butter to be placed on its own merits ?— Certainly. 65. It seems to me there is no grade required, then ?—The object of the grading is that the grader may make suggestions to the farmer or factories as to what improvement is required. Ido not see any advantage in marking it first- or second-class. I would not put any mark on at all, but would just let the grader indicate the state of the butter to the factories as usual, and if there is a remedy required say what it is. What our farmers say (and lam speaking on behalf of hundreds of our struggling farmers) is, that they do not object to the grading, but they strongly object to have the butter prejudiced when it leaves New Zealand by having a different brand put on than that of first-class. 66. I gather from you, then, that the settler objects to any marks being put upon the packets as a guide to the Home buyers ?—That is it; that is the position they take. 67. Therefore it does away with grading so far as the Home market is concerned ?—lt does away with giving the Home buyers an advantage over the shipper. 68. Eegarding the price paid for milk : You would like the Committee, you say, to give some recommendation regarding what you think is dishonesty on the part of the buyer of milk—that the settler .is not getting full value for the best quality of his milk?—l should like the Government to see its way to recommend an independent tester of the milk, so that there will be some one to test the milk on behalf of the farmers as well as the factories. 69. But, if the farmer takes his milk to the factory, can he not retain a portion of it and test it himself ?—But some of them are not up to a chemical test. 70. Do you think you are going to make the buyers honest by having an inspector go round ?— I cannot say as to that. 71. Have you had any experience of cheese?—l have a fair knowledge of cheese. I was six years in a house in Auckland, and large quantities passed through my hands. 72. Do you think grading of cheese is a help ?—lf six years' experience is a test, of course it has been. You see, some of our Government officials wish to take credit for the good price obtained for our butter, because the grading has passed through their hands. They have also graded cheese, but the improvement has not taken place. 73. Mr. Flatman.] You do not object to the grading so long as the butter is not marked according to the quality pronounced by the graders ?—That is so. 74. Then, what would you do with the butter the grader would reject or classify a lower class ? —I would suggest it being sent Home on its own merits, the same as mutton or beef. 75. Then, what about first-class butter? —Let it go Home on its own merits. 76. What is the use of grading ?—We want to get the farmers and others up to a high standard of making butter. You have men under Government who understand the matter thoroughly. If there is any difficulty—too much moisture or anything else—Mr. Thornton would suggest it, and so on. Grading can improve our producers, and they can have suggestions from your Dairy Department in this direction. 77. I cannot see where the grading will come in. If you mix it up afterwards, what is the use of grading ?—I am not making myself clear on the matter. As I have pointed out, we want grading for the benefit of the producers, so as to bring them up to a high standard of making butter, so that when the butter gets Home to England it can be sold at a good price. I fail to see why the Government has any right to come in between the buyer and the seller in the matter of butter any more than they have in the matter of beef or wool, or flax, or anything else. 78. Would it not be in the interest of the producer to send Home nothing but first-class butter ?—Certainly; but what are we to do with our butter in the season when it is impossible to make first-class butter ? 79. Do you think it is possible to spoil first-class butter sales by sending second-class butter along with it ?—No, I do not. 80. Mr. Biiddo.] You have an objection to the London agencies, sometimes on account of their being in collusion with the buyer, and sometimes on account of their own apparent attempts at robbery of their clients ?—Yes, sir. 81. If you could use such means as amalgamation or co-operation, say, as to make a central New Zealand Agency in London for the distribution of the dairy produce, would that be an advantage to the local producer ?—I think it would be a great advantage. 82. If you were aware of a Co-operative Association being as near as Napier, would you be likely to try and give them some assistance in their trade ?—Anything I could do in any part of New Zealand lam willing to do. lam ready to go and give any of the farmers my experience gratis. 83. You complain that small dairies having a separator are not allowed to mark their butter as " separator butter " ?—Yes. 13—1. 9.

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84. What steps has a small dairy, having a separator, to take to get itself under the provisions of the Factory Act as a factory ? —To supply a certain quantity of milk and apply to the Government grader to brand their butter. 85. Would it put a small producer at a disadvantage for him to get a sufficient quantity ?— Provided there are three or four farmers together and they combined, it would be easy enough, I think. 86. In short, this is a matter which could be arranged locally ?— Yes, sir. When I had a chat with Mr. Sawyer, your late Chief Dairy Expert, he said, " Our object in this Act is to drive all the small farmers to the factories." I pointed out the injustice of it, inasmuch as some of our farmers are four or five miles from the factories, and there are some bad roads which make it impossible for them to take the milk there. 87. You stated that in an Auckland factory they have got an independent tester? —Yes ; I saw it in last week's Auckland Weekly News that Mr. Mcßwen had interested himself and had appointed a chemist to test the milk, and the farmers had to pay him. 88. Have any attempts been made in your district to have this matter arranged locally ?—lt has been mooted several times, but nothing definite has been accomplished as yet. 89. Neither the producer nor the factory-managers have made any attempt to solve the difficulty ?—Of course the factory proprietors have already got their testers. 90. They have not made overtures to the producer to have an independent test'?—No, but I do not think they would object to it. 91. You have stated at some considerable length —you speak, of course, for your district—that they object to the grading of the butter as information for the purchaser in London ?—Yes. 92. Do not you think if the butter was not marked after being graded it would practically nullify the whole of the Dairy Act ? —I fail to see that it would. 93. Of course you stated in jour previous evidence that if the butter was graded for the pur pose only of giving instruction to the producer, without branding it for sale in London, that it is all that you believe it would be in the interest of the producer to have done? —I do. 94. If that is so, would not local examination of the butter, for the purpose you indicate, be of far-more value and cost less?—We shall have our butter examined locally this season. We shall not ship to Wellington unless the shipping company fail to send up their boats every fortnight. If the boat does not turn up, we shall be under the necessity of delaying our butter and sending it down by the coastal steamers. 95. You object to the whole Dairy Act with the exception of the cool-storage of butter ? —I would not object to the whole of the Dairy Act, because I believe many clauses are beneficial. But lam not only speaking for myself, but for farmers in the district. They say they object to their interests being interfered with by the Government branding their produce second- or third-class quality. 96. Are you aware of any other district but Taranaki having made this objection to the grading of butter ?—No ; I am not aware, not so strongly. 97. Mr. McLachlan.] —Do you know if the graders are practical dairymen ?—I do not know if Mr. Thornton is a dairyman, but he has had experience in buying butter. 98. Do you think there is any possibility of the process of grading acting deterioratingly on the butter? —I do. From twenty-five years experience, I have found, if you open a keg or box of butter and let the air get in, it makes the butter rancid. 99. It cannot have otherwise than an injurious effect ?—No. 100. Do you think any English house would be the better for having the brand fixed here without subsequent examination for themselves?—l think not. In very exceptional cases they would. 101. Are you aware that in Canterbury, these last two seasons, the purchasing-firm have appointed a grader in Lyttelton to overgrade the Government grader? —No, I am not; but I am not at all surprised at the information. 102. You stated that the farmers, not being chemists, were not able to make a test of the milk themselves. Do you know if it requires a chemist to carry out this testing? —I do not know that a man need be a chemist, but he must know something about chemistry, in order to arrive at the amount of cream in the milk. 103. Do you think, by sending a quantity of the milk to the factory and withholding a fair portion of it, that if they were to get a higher percentage of butter out of it than was returned to them from the factory, would that be a fair test ? —I should think it would. 104. Do you believe the separator makes a greater quantity of butter than the ordinary process ? —Yes, you get the full value out of the milk, so much so that the milk that is left is not so good for feeding pigs or calves. It takes nearly the whole of the substance out of it. 105. Might not this be due to the chemical change, without reference to the butter-factory at all ?—No, I think it is the creamery; more than that, it takes all the refuse out of the milk. 106. Do you think the refuse would be any advantage to the calves ?—No ; but it would do damage to the butter. 107. You say, without the farmer obtains a higher percentage of butter from the factory than by the ordinary pan system, he would not get justice?—l think not. 108. You said they were making the farmers mark " separator" butter as "dairy" butter: You think that is a flaw in the Act ?—Yes, because in some cases separator butter is better than the creamery. 109. Do you not think co-operation amongst the farmers would get over all these evils?— Yes; I have been advocating this for years in our district, and the farmers who co-operated last season got for their milk, whilst those who supplied the Crown Dairy only got 2Jd. and 2£cL, and 2fd. if up to test.

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110. And the co-operative system is immaterial so long as you are fair to each supplier?—ln the co-operative system they advance the farmers so much for their milk. At the end of the season the balance-sheet is made up and the profits divided pro ratd. Under this Loan Act the Government can assist a great many of these men to co-operate. 111. You believe that the fact of this loan being practically floated will be held as a boon amongst the settlers in Taranaki? —I do not like to express an opinion.

APPENDICES.

APPENDIX A. Eepoet on Petition of Canteebuby Ageicultueal and Pastobal Association.—No. 322. New Zealand Government Bailways, Sic,— Head Office, Wellington, 18th August, 1896. With reference to the petition of the Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association (returned herewith), I have the honour to report that the department is always ready and desirous to assist in the development of the industries of the colony, and in the means necessary for marketing the produce in a perfect condition, as well as reducing the rates, as far as possible, to such a figure as will in no way hinder the expansion of New Zealand industries. In regard to clause 2 of the petition, I am not aware that greater facilities are afforded the shipment of frozen meat in Australia than exist in New Zealand. On the contrary, the immense distances sheep are carried in Australia is a distinct disadvantage to Australian producers. The proximity of New Zealand ports to the various freezing-works is a distinct gain to the New Zealand producer. With regard to paragraphs 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7,1 append the following statement, based upon the quotations.in this portion of the petition : — Present charges (not including insurance and wharfage) for frozen meat, Belfast to London, are (Note: Charges from Islington are, for all practical purposes, the same) : — Ship's Freight. Freezing. London Charges. Eailage, N.Z. Total. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. Per ton... ... 9 6 8 2 6 8 2 6 8 0 8 6 14 8 6 Per sheep of 601b. 050 013 013 0 0 2f 0 7 8f Per pound ... 0 0 1 0 0 0J 0 0 0J 0 0 0 0 l|f It will thus be seen tha-t out of a total charge per ton of £14 6s. Bd. the New Zealand Eailways receive Bs. 6d.; out of a charge of 7s. 8-f-d. per sheep of 601b. weight the New Zealand Eailways receive 2fd. per sheep ; and out of a charge of l^fd. per pound the New Zealand Eailways receive per pound. What reduction on per pound will assist this industry, which has to pay lffd. per pound, or thirty-three times as much as the New Zealand Eailway charges ? Supposing a reduction of 25 per cent, in the railway charges was granted, that would amount to 2s. Id. per ton, or fd. per sheep. Seeing that the charges amount to about 7s. 9d. per sheep, a reduction of fd. per sheep would not assist the producer appreciably, but would be a serious matter for the railway revenue, and lam consequently not able to recommend any reduction. Ido not believe that any farmer with, say, five hundred sheep per annum available for export is at all likely to enlarge his operations on account of a reduction in freight equal to fd. per sheep ; neither could the Belfast Freezing Company reduce their charges appreciably on account of such a reduction in railway rates. If we consider the service performed by the railway we shall find that it is a costly one. Special trucks are provided, and special trains in many cases, and no return load is usually available. Apart from such a consideration, however, I place greater weight upon the previous argument; as all railway rates, if revenue is to be considered at all, must be based, upon the ability of the products to pay the charges, as well as upon the cost of the service. In making reductions the department has carefully considered that such concessions must be available for all persons, and should especially benefit the producer. It would be impossible to secure to the producer the very small reduction in railway charges previously alluded to; and, as before pointed out, even could it be secured by any means it would be of no practical benefit to him. In regard to paragraph 8 : No comparison can be made between the frozen-meat business and the grain business. Frozen meat is worth, probably, £100 per railway-truck load; whilst grain is worth from £30 to £40. Frozen meat is carried in specially-built trucks set apart for the purpose, and in loads of 3 tons 3 cwt. per truck; whilst grain is carried in much larger quantities, in ordinary open trucks available for all classes of business, and averages 6 tons per truck-load. The frozenmeat rates, therefore, are not relatively higher than the grain rates. lie paragraph 9 : There is no ground for supposing that Canterbury is exceptionally treated. Eates are made applicable all over the colony where the conditions are similar. In regard to paragraph 10, clause (a) : Frozen-meat trucks have been in use for the last fourteen years, and the department has had neither claims nor complaints in regard to damage of any kind to frozen meat : they are scientifically constructed, and efficient for the carrying-on of the business. That this is so may be inferred from the fact that meat from Timaru to Lyttelton and Oamaru to Port Chalmers is continually carried in perfect order in the same trucks as the Belfast and Islington meat; in fact, it is frequently a subject of comment in regard to the perfect order in which Timaru meat is carried in comparison with local meat. Clause (b) :No delay attributable

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to the railway takes place in transit of meat from Belfast and Islington works to ship. It is delivered at destination faster than the ship is able to receive it. The detentions alluded to—viz., six hours from factory to ship—are attributable to this cause. I may here remark that the meat is carried in special trains as required, and without restriction, except in cases where the ordinary trains are equally suitable. Paragraph 11 : In regard to this I have to state that the present trucks are available and altogether suitable. There is no objection to freezing companies providing their own trucks, beyond the fact that the Government has already provided them at the request of freezing companies. Where owners provide their own trucks allowance is made for truck-hire. I have, &c, The Chairman, T. Bonayne, Agricultural, Pastoral, and Stock Committee, General Manager. House of Bepresentatives.

APPENDIX B. Department of Agriculture (Live-stock Branch), Wellington, 26th June, 1896. I beg to attach for your information an extract from a recent report of the Government Produce Inspector in London. John D. Eitchie, Secretary.

Extract. S.s. " Fifeshire."—The meat delivered by this ship was in fine condition. A certain number of misshapen carcases were received, and broken shanks were met with here and there. These defects are regarded as usual, and do not excite any protest from receivers; but of this particular cargo twelve lambs were condemned as unfit for food. The owners of the vessel explained that whilst loading some carcases were received in an imperfectly frozen condition. The captain refused to receive these at first; upon being pressed to take them, he agreed to hang them up in the hold and harden them whilst en voute for the next port. It is reported that the carcases condemned formed part of those which were treated in this way. The condemned carcases were part of the bottom tier, and rested upon the dunnage. This is only a small instance of damage from insufficient freezing before loading. I have interviewed the managers of the Shaw-Savill and the New Zealand Shipping Companies respectively, and discussed with them the recent arrivals of meat in bad condition. They are unanimous in attributing the bad condition of recent arrivals to careless treatment of parcels at the freezing-works ashore. Special complaint is made against Lyttelton, whose reputation was until recently the best for the condition of meat-shipments. It is also said that, owing to the plentiful supply of tonnage in proportion to meat available for shipment, the representatives of the various vessels have been over-eager to secure all they could without regard to its proper condition. For instance, if the engineer of one ship disliked the condition of a certain batch of meat, and raised any objection to its being placed on board, he was liable to be told that what he objected to was quite good enough for two other vessels of different lines waiting to fill up. Further, in connection with this matter of meat arriving in bad condition, I was informed by one shipowner that it had been reported to him by one of his officers that one of the freezing-works was in such a filthy condition that it was impossible to secure carcases from it in a clean and proper state. It suggests the desirability of some system of inspection of freezing-works when such a report can be made, whereas it would have been considered entirely superfluous to suggest such a thing, considering how essential to success is a proper system of working, and that cleanliness is absolutely indispensable. As a proof that the opinion held by shipowners is correct, it is pointed out that a large number of cases of bone-stink have been discovered amongst recent arrivals. In the cases of the "Tekoa " and " Tokomaru " several hundred carcases were condemned, whilst in the case of the "Tongariro" a thousand carcases were destroyed by order of the Health Officer for the Port of London. When we regard the harm that has been caused by the presence on the market of large quantities of mutton in inferior condition, it is matter for regret that the action of the above authority was not more drastic and comprehensive, so that many more carcases than those which were destroyed might have been similarly prevented from coming into consumption. Before leaving this subject for the present I should inform you that, in discussing the condition of frozen meat when tendered to the ship, the directors of the Shaw-Savill Company informed me that they have intimated to the chief engineer of the s.s. " Tokomaru" that if he accepts any improperly refrigerated carcases in future his services will be dispensed with. It is to be hoped that similarly strict instructions will be issued on all occasions by at least this one company, who profess to value their reputation too highly to allow.complaints to become general as to the out-turn of meat from their steamers. S.s. " Duke of Sutherland," docked late on the 23rd ultimo : I examined her thermometers, and found the following temperature ruling in her meat-holds. This ship brought only meat. Discharge of meat from this ship did not commence until the 28th ultimo, five days after her arrival in dock. It is generally found impossible to get consignees to lodge papers and provide storage for their parcels until after a vessel has been in dock for some days. A good deal of damage to carcases and unnecessary delay is occasioned by the necessity for sorting marks in the ships' holds. This could be remedied by removal of all cargoes into proper sheds for sorting, which the dock company would provide if shipowners would pay the extra cost of handling. A great saving in time would be effected, and carcases would be handled to much greater advantage if such provision were made. Tt would seem that the advantages to be derived are such that it would pay shippers and shipowners to combine in bearing the expense together.

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Exteact from Mr. Henry Gray's Beport, dated 11th June, 1896. Since making my last report, on 28th instant, I have to inform you of the arrival of the following vessels bringing refrigerated cargoes from New Zealand : — S.s. " Buapehu " arrived Ist June, s.s. " Aotea " on 31st ultimo. I have to report generally that both meat and dairy produce continue to arrive in unsatisfactory condition. This prejudices the sale of the colony's products, damages the fine reputation formerly gained by her frozen mutton, and renders it impossible for a trade in New Zealand cheese to be begun upon anything like a proper basis. The landing of produce, whether meat, butter, or cheese, in an improper state, or, in other words, " out of condition," paralyses the trade in those articles. The placing of a portion of our supplies upon the markets " out of condition " hurts and checks the trade all round, and competitors immediately experience a benefit, and probably gain permanent ground from which it may be found it is impossible to dislodge them. I have discussed the subject of " out-of-condition " meat with insurance companies, shipowners, and merchants. The first, in some instances, seem to fear a reduction in the rate of premium for insurance on frozen meat which might result from any agitation set about for remedying the present unsatisfactory state of things. The second complains of increasing negligence on " the other side," whilst the third sees that neither the first nor the second separately, nor are both collectively, sufficient to secure for growers the full returns which it is possible to secure if the trade were relieved from the prejudicial influence of " out-of-condition " goods. In the ease of cheese the position is even worse, on account of the fact that no insurance against loss arising from damage is effected, excepting in a few isolated cases, which represents only a small proportion of the bulk. Insurance companies would be to blame if they accepted risks on goods which come to hand, in three cases out of five, " out of condition." I regret having to report that a good deal of meat out of recent arrivals has been condemned as " unfit for food." I refer to the s.s. " Aorangi," about eight hundred carcases ; s.s. " Buteshire," about five hundred carcases to date, said to be mostly Newcastle sheep; s.s. "Bimutaka," twentytwo sheep. If this represented the extent of the damage, and if the matter ended with the destruction.of the meat by the port authority, the trade would be relieved of a portion of supplies which are usually in excess of requirements. It is scarcely necessary to point out, however, that when a vessel discharges a portion of her cargo in such a state as to be too bad to pass the officer of health, a proportion of the remainder of her cargo will be in bad condition, although not so bad as to be consigned to " the heap," as it is called. I was present at the examination of the meat ex s.s. "Aorangi." This was trucked ashore into the dock-sheds, where the temperature stood at 80 deg. on the Ist June. I was astonished to see that, whilst this examination of piles of badly damaged and very offensively stinking meat was proceeding, the passengers from the s.s. " Buapehu," just arrived, were compelled to stand in this shed awaiting the clearance by Customs of their baggage. When I state that the smell from the meat was sickening, and note is taken of the temperature, I have said enough about an incident which struck me as most revolting. S.s. " Buapehu " : I was informed that temperatures of the holds were ascertained from the trunks only, for the reason that such thermometers as had been suspended from the deck had become jammed by freezing. I examined the entries in the log, and found the records of from 16 deg. to 20 deg. for meat-holds, and 48 deg. to 50 deg. for cheese, had been entered as the readings for the last occasion of taking temperatures. I found the temperatures of produce to be as follows: Butter, 20, 22, 25, 22, 20 deg.; cheese, 32, 35, 45, 50, 51, 51, 56 deg. In the face of such a finding, which is, I regret to say, not exceptional, as my reports have already shown, it is impossible to place any value upon the records of the thermometers placed in such positions as are those above referred to. What is the use of an engineer producing a thermometer which shows that a temperature of 48 deg. is ruling at that point, when immediately after I examine cheese taken from within a few feet of the same point and find 56 deg. or 32 deg., according to whether the goods were stowed in the middle of the chamber or at the trunks ? Cheese per s.s. " Buapehu " was delivered, to all appearances, generally in good condition. Such packages, however, as were stowed near to and under the trunks were badly soaked, and some were coated with ice for some hours after stoppage of machine and opening of chamber. The bulk were stowed in the fore part of the ship, in No. 2 aft, commonly styled the "old second saloon," the position formerly occupied for that purpose. As this space is situated directly above the forward refrigerat-ing-machine room, where the temperature at times ranges up to 120 deg. Fahr., it was abandoned as being too uncomfortable for the purpose of a saloon. In the present instance we may assume that the insulation has stood. Begarding the facts that in one case cheese out of a disused second saloon was delivered roasted, and in this latter instance, out of a similarly-situated position, cheese was delivered frozen—or, speaking more exactly, coated with ice—l feel bound to warn shippers that if they allow their cheese to be stowed in such places they must expect one or the other result. I should state that this vessel brought 2,226 crates cheese, 2,188 boxes butter, besides frozen meat and general cargo. With a temperature of 80 deg. ruling in the dock-sheds, I was curious to notice what precautions were taken by consignees to protect their clients' interests, and generally took upon myself to urge upon the stevedore the desirability of not putting butter ashore until conveyances were found for its removal. His reply was that he would delay all he could, but that what was not taken direct into barge or van must go into the shed— i.e., 80 deg. S.s. "Buteshire": I regret to inform you that on the day following my last report, when examining cheese, I found a few crates —some twenty in all—more or less badly soaked with water. These were the last to be removed from "the chamber. I was able to make a thorough examination of the chamber, and found that the wet cheese had come from the after end, against the bulkhead on the port side. The arrangement of this chamber is such that no exits for cold air exist jvbut a

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slight filtration of cold air at a temperature of about 40 deg. is allowed to enter through the lining of the chamber. Seeing that this filtration was at the point nearest to the machine, enough to produce condensation, we must conclude that the air at this point was considerably below 40deg., and that, as condensation was found in this chamber to so marked an extent as to produce soakage of cheese, the arrangement of this chamber is not entirely satisfactory. In view of the approach of another season for export of cheese, I would urge upon shippers the absolute necessity for deliberation and careful scrutiny of the question of ocean-transit before again committing themselves to a course of shipping such as that which has been followed hitherto. I may say emphatically it is of no use whatever to continue the shipment of cheese to this country if produce is to be brought in ships which are absolutely unfit for the purpose. On the other hand, it is reasonable to expect a good and growing trade, at fairly remunerative prices, to be done if attention is paid to the principles underlying the successful treatment of cheese during transit, and advantage taken of the experience which has been gained. The crisis through which both the meat and cheese trades are passing is extremely serious, and I venture to urge the necessity for the adoption of any and every means which it may be in the power of your Government to employ.

Extract from Bepobt dated 4th July, 1896. As regards frozen mutton, I gather that some of the leading importers are like the rats—trying to leave the unsatisfactory ships to those who are probably newer to the business, and less experienced as to certain "old offenders." I cannot see why, if tonnage is in excess of supplies, growers need have their meat carried in ships where the odds are greatly against its being delivered in satisfactory condition. If properly grown, classed, frozen, and put on board perfect, there are still plenty of vessels on the berths, with experienced men in charge of powerful engines, capable of maintaining properly-arranged holds. There are also suitable methods for transport at this end. Every point must be watched if success is to be reached. The dividing-up of interests all along the line constitutes a source of weakness, and it is worth considering whether an investigation might be made by the Government into each branch of the work. Surely the industry is of sufficient importance to justify any action of a practical character in reason.

APPENDIX C. The New Zealand Shipping Company's Steamship " Euapehu," Voyage 33, Sir, — Lyttelton, 31st August, 1896. Eeferring to the official report of Mr. Henry Gray, Inspector of Produce in London for the New Zealand Government, with regard to the out-turn of the " Euapehu's " cargo of frozen meat and dairy produce last voyage, published in the Wellington Evening Post of the 25th instant, I beg to make the following observations : — Thermometers jammed by Freezing. —It is quite true that three of the thermometers suspended through tubes into one of the meat-chambers got frozen-in in the course of the voyage through contact of-the cold with the warm air when opened for inspection, but no thermometer was ever frozen-in in the produce-chambers. Temperatures of Meat-chambers. —The reported temperatures of the meat-chambers (16deg. to 20 deg.) are practically correct, the result of which was that only half a carcase was objected to as being a little soft, although two more were partly eaten by rats that got into the chamber during discharge. Temperatures of Produce-chambers. —The reported variation of 24 deg. in the temperatures in the produce-chambers —56 deg. to 32 deg.—cannot apply to different parts of the chambers, for I was present once a day during the voyage when the temperatures were inspected, and never found the cheese-chambers lower than 46 deg., and the lowest recorded temperature was 44 deg.—although, of course, the butter-chambers, which were quite distinct to the cheese-chambers, were considerably lower —but it probably refers to that of the centre of the cheese as compared with the outside of it, after it had been taken out of the chambers ; for Mr. Gray, who himself took the temperatures of the chambers during our discharge in London, and also of several cheeses by boring holes and placing thermometers in them, told the chief engineer he only found 2 deg. variation of temperature in the chamber, but 13 deg. variation in different sections of the cheese. He also told the chief engineer that the entire cargo of frozen meat and dairy produce was as good as any he had ever seen. Cheese coated with Ice. —We only found two cases of cheese, which had been stowed right in front of, and too close to, two of the trunk slides, with a slight coating of ice oh top of the cases. " Old Second Saloon." —I am sorry that Mr. Gray was not aware, before publishing the statement that our " old second saloon " was " too uncomfortable for the purpose of a saloon," that it was most popular and comfortable as such, and that it was only transformed into a cargo-compart-ment to meet the increasing demand for cargo space. I have, &c, D. Stuaet, Commanding. The General Manager, New Zealand Shipping Company, Christchurch.

APPENDIX D. Sib,— Wellington, 20tb August, 1896. As I have to leave New Zealand by the " Euapehu " on the 3rd September, I would be much obliged by as early an answer as convenient to the ■ following proposition concerning the acquisition of the patent rights of my thawing process : If the Government will pay £300, which is the sum I estimate the expenses at in connection with my visit to England, I will give them the

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right of refusal to conclude with my previous offer until the end of this year. Before the termination of this period the beef at present on the " Tekoa," shipped at Waitara, will have been treated by the process, and the department will be able to estimate with more certainty the effect which a monopoly of the process would have upon the New Zealand trade. The Agent-General will be able to inspect the sale returns. I have, &c, The Secretary of the Agricultural Department. Walter Peck.

APPENDIX E. Sib,— Wellington, 12th August, 1896. Having patented in England a process of thawing frozen meat which, in the opinion of several experts who have had good opportunities of judging its merits, will increase the English wholesale value by l-|d. to 2d. per pound, I offer the whole rights and profits of this patent to the New Zealand Government for the sum of £50,000, and agree to take the same in New Zealand Consols paying 3-J- per cent., conditionally upon this offer being definitely accepted and concluded with in time for me to go Home by the New Zealand Shipping Company's mail-steamer on the 3rd September, as I have undertaken to thaw the beef which leaves Waitara this week. I also offer to erect the plant in England at the different meat-stores nominated by the New Zealand Government, or as instructed by the Agent-General, and to initiate the people in charge of them into the method of working the process, conditionally upon the Government paying my travellingexpenses and a salary of £10 per week. The exports of frozen meat from New Zealand in 1895 were 1,111,394cwt., or 124,476,1281b.; and an increased value of lfd. per pound would equal £777,975. The cost of thawing, together with the interest upon the cost of plant, will not exceed per pound. If a committee were appointed to inspect the process in action at the Waitara Freezing-works, I shall be very glad to place all facilities at their disposal. I have, &c, J. D. .Eitchie, Esq., Secretary for Agriculture, Wellington. Waltee Peck.

APPENDIX F. [Statement handed in by Mr. Stevenson.] Quantity and Value of Butter and Cheese exported during the Year ended 31st March, 1896.

OT\ ,ant Butter. Cheese. District. Quantity. Value. Quantity. Value. .uckland 'overty Bay... few Plymouth Vanganui Wellington ... 'atea Cwt. 7,954 2 23,614 1,794 16,166* 905 £ 33,240 6 95,727 6,721 64,486 3,709 Cwt. 1,958* 68f 16,090 £ 3,964 150 28,180 14,066 952* 25,369 1,629 50,435* 203,889 33,135f 59,292 Butter.—1,210,4401b. timber, at fd. pi ir lb. freight = £3,782 12s. Cheese.—331,3501b. timber, at gd. = £862 18s. South Island. Wairau-Picton kelson jyttelton )amaru Dunedin Cwt. 181 916 4,698* £ 821 3,219 18,437 Cwt. a',977i 89i 34,027 1,239 £ 5,714 146 63,443 3,444 3,813* 23" 14,723 63 invercargill ... 9,632 37,263 38,332* 72,747 Butter.—231,1681b. timber, at j fd. = £722 8s. Cheese.—383,3201b. iimber, at fd. = £998 4s. 7d. Tol ;al freight paid on timber, £6,366 2s. 7c 1.

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[Papers handed in by Mr. Waymouth, Appendices G to L.] APPENDIX G. Manupactuees at Belfast in addition to Frozen Meat during 1895. 3,432 casks tallow ... ... ... ... 1,168 tons 16cwt. 3qr. 141b. Ice ... ... ... ... ... 26 tons 15cwt. Bacon and hams ... ... ... ... 844,1251b. 3,424 bales wool ... ... ... ... 438 tons lOcwt. 151b. Manure ... ... ... ... ... 837 tons 12cwt. 6,319 cases preserved meats. Oleo-works and casing-works are separate establishments. About one-third of our skins are sold by owners and fellmongered elsewhere.

APPENDIX H. Shipments of Fkozen Meat from Lyttelton during Six Months ending 30th June, 1896. Mutton. Pieces. Lambs. From Belfast ... ... ... 126,045 carcases ... 415 ... 211,221 From Islington... ... ... 115,890 „ ... None ... 167,731 Total ... ... 241,935 „ ... 415 ... 378,952

APPENDIX I. Amount of Westport Coal used during the year 1895, 5,004 tons 14cwt. 2qr. "Wages paid during the year, £30,317 ss. Total number of carcases, frozen meat, shipped in 1895, — 286,178 sheep ... ... ... 16,290,1621b. 198,669 lambs ... ... ... 7,670,9201b. 484,847 ... .'.. ... 23,961,0821b. = 10,696 tons 18cwt. 261b. Bailage paid on same at Bs. 6d. per ton, £4,546 2s. 6d. Number of vans used, 27£, making £165 6s. 3d. earned by each van.

APPENDIX J. Belfast Station. Expenditure ... ... ... ... ... ... ... £265 15s. 4d. Total outward freight ... ... ... ... ... 20,345 tons llcwt. Total sheep inward ... ... ... ... ... ... 222,528 Total pigs inward ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,291 Total tonnage inward ... ... ... ... ... ... 9,426 Station value ... ... ... ... ... ... ... £7,947 12s. Bd. Company's siding—Value of traffic, in and out ... ... ...£13,409 19s. 4d. New Zealand Provision and Produce Company's siding £1,534 6s. Bd. and 403 9s. 10d. — £1,937 16s. 6d. A large amount of which is incidental to our business, owing to their buying and carting from our works to theirs, skins, fat, and manures, the products of which are consigned from their sidings. Islington siding ... ... ... ... ... ... ... £10,427 2s. The above are the only sidings passing into five figures.

APPENDIX K. Pebsbnt Chaege by Cantekbuky Feozen Meat and Dairy Pboduce Bxpoet Company (Limited) . Slaughtering, freezing, bagging, rail to port, and wharfage, also freight to London ... .. ... ... O9d. per pound. The freight is ... ... ... ... ... 0-75 d. Leaving ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Olsd. per pound for all the company's work, or about ... ... ... 7d. per sheep. Bailage at Bs. 6d. per ton is equal to per sheep.

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APPENDIX L. Killing at Belfast. 1895.

[Papers banded in by Mr. G. Andbbson. (Appendices M to S.)] APPENDIX M. Dear Sic,— 20th July, 1896. With reference to the complaints regarding damaged meat landed from several vessels : It has occurred to us that a great deal of the complaints of " mildew " and " off-colour " may arise from the fact that while the meat is properly frozen at the works and loaded into the vans in absolutely hard and dry condition, yet there is absolutely no proper insulation in the freezing-trucks (the trucks being constructed, as per New Zealand Eailways' letter), as follows: — " Copy of Report of Locomotive Superintendent re Frozen-meat Trucks. " The trucks are in fair running order ; they are, however, very black, and will be repainted as fast as traffic can spare them. The statement re roof is absolutely incorrect. Even the ordinary covered goods have a wood roof covered with canvas or roof-cloth. The writer has evidently been examining some covered goods or cool-trucks with louvres. " Our trucks have roofs as follows : Inner lining of wood, fin. thick, tongued and grooved, then one layer of insulating-paper, then one layer of felt, then 2in. of mineral wool, then -fin. wood, tongued and grooved, then air-circulation, 7in. at centre, 2in. at sides, then lin. tongued-and-grooved wood roof covered with patent cloth." The consequence is that in hot weather, when the meat-vans arrive alongside the ships, the meat-wrappers are more or less damp, and in some instances the skiu of the carcase becomes moist. As very little time elapses from the time the meat is taken aboard until it is stacked away in the hold, there is no chance of this wet wrapper or outer skin being refrigerated before the carcase is finally stacked away ; consequently the wet wrapper or wet skin of the carcase is placed away where there is no possible chance of the cold air from the freezing- machines getting at and refreezing it. Of necessity this part remains wet and unfrozen, and "mildew" or "mould" results. We feel sure that if you consider the matter in this light you will see that it explains in some measure the complaints received from London re damaged meat. Our object in writing the above is to ask you to combine with us in urging this phase of the question upon the New Zealand Eailways, and insisting on their providing us with properly insulated and painted trucks, so that there would not be the least chance of the meat being damaged in any way between the freezing-works and the ships. At the same time, we think it is absolutely necessary to urge on the Railway Department that it is imperative that better conveniences be given the freezing companies as regards meat-trains. 14—1. 9.

Month. Freezers. Lambs. Pigs. Cattle. January February March ... April May June July August ... September October... November December 29,854 21,250 28,313 33,558 24,956 18,120 14,054 28,447 22,171 28,774 14,762 15,257 38,258 44,978 42,035 34,044 23,923 12,350 3,169 737 151 617 1,653 18,286 335 462 640 1,108 1,606 1,132 1,481 719 463 369 176 208 23 9 20 27 11 16 20 18 10 5 11 279,516 220,201 8,699 165 1896. January February March ... April May June July ... 24,539 27,355 23,196 7,558 11,857 32,430 22,274 45,899 44,437 47,384 38,198 29,665 22,295 6,925 185 206 557 1,542 1,525 1,082 576 30 20 19 14 11 25 149,209 234,803 5,673 119

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and that the meat be conveyed more frequently to the ships, instead of keeping numbers of trucks of meat at the port without any protection from the sun. Waiting your favourable consideration of the above, We are, &c, Gilbert Anderson, Managing Director. (For the Christchurch Meat Company, Limited.) Captain H. Anderson, Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company (Limited), Christchurch.

APPENDIX N. Extract of Letter from W. Weddel and Co. to the Christchurch Meat Company, dated London, Ist May, 1896. There is such a tremendous quantity of damaged carcases about, and so comparatively few primequality carcases, that the highest-class buyers are being choked off all over the country. The cause of the damage in the cases of the " Buahine," " Tekoa," " Tongariro," and " Fifeahire " is not discoverable by any records of logs, and representations to the shipowners are of comparatively little avail, as they simply refer us to their temperature records in proof that the ship did not do the damage. We are safe in estimating that the loss in value of stocks in London caused by the damaged condition of the last four or five arrivals amounts to £15,000 or £20,000, not one penny of which can be recovered from the underwriters. Eoughly speaking, the market has been depreciated fully Jd. per pound on all the sheep and lambs in stock in London on Ist March, or arriving since that date. It is no use parleying with this question. It must be taken up and dealt with at once,. or we do not know where the mischief may stop.

APPENDIX O. Deak Sir, — Hereford Street, Christcturrch, 18th September, 1895. We exceedingly regret to say that our account-sales received by the San Francisco mail show an excessive amount of damaged meat. You must be aware that it is absolutely necessary in the interests of the trade to definitely ascertain the cause of this. We shall therefore be glad to learn that you are prepared to grant us ''Lloyd's surveyor's certificate" that the refrigerating chambers and machinery on your vessels are in good order when meat is shipped. We should particularly like this with respect to the s.s. " Aorangi," as we purpose giving you a fairly large shipment by this vessel. We think you will concede that we are not asking anything unreasonable, as we think it is imperative in the interests of the trade. We are, &c, Gilbert Anderson, Managing Director. (For the Christchurch Meat Company, Limited.) The General Manager, New Zealand Shipping Company (Limited), Christchurch.

APPENDIX P. Deak Sir,— Lyttelton, N.Z., 31st July, 1896. I am favoured with yours of the 20th concerning the complaints that have recently been made regarding damaged meat landed from several vessels. I agree with you in thinking that there is room for great improvement as to the condition of the railway frozen-meat trucks, and that better conveniences should be given in the way of haulage, by running meat-trains more frequently, especially during summer months. In my opinion, the meat traffic at this port nowadays is of such large dimensions as would warrant expenditure sufficient to keep the trucks in perfect order, both as regards insulation and paint. As regards the working of the trains, it has always been my conviction that, during the summer months, the heavy meat-trains should be unloaded at the port here between the morning hours of 4 and 10 o'clock, and that any traffic during the heat of the day at that time of the year should not be carried on in trains of more than eight or ten trucks. The above arrangements would be more costly for the shipowner, in that it would involve overtime wages for the unloading from 4 to 8 o'clock in the morning; but I am quite sure the managers of this company would approve of that extra expense on the steamers for the sake of getting the sheep stowed away in their vessels in good order. Hoping arrangements will be ma.de before the hot weather sets in that will prevent a repetition of what happened at this port last summer, I am, &c, H. Andebson, Gilbert Anderson, Esq., Marine Superintendent. Manager Director, Christchurch Meat Company (Limited), Christchurch.

APPENDIX Q. Extbacts from Freight Aqbebmknt between Shipping Companies and Christchubch Meat Company. Clause 14. That all mutton and lamb received by ships shall be deemed to have been accepted by them as properly frozen and in good condition.

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Clause 15. That the ship's responsibility for condition of meat (except in cases of proved breakdown of machinery, or of the ship stranded, sunk, or burnt, or in collision) shall continue until the meat shall have been put over the ship's side. Clause 16. That no meat be stored in ships so as to touch the top part of the chambers or impede the free circulation of air. Clause 17. That the Meat Company shall at all times afford every possible facility to the ships for determining the condition of the meat while in course of preparation, or on being tendered for shipment. Clause 19. The Shipping Company agrees not to receive on board any meat found to be soft or otherwise not in good condition. Clause 20. That no goods other than frozen meat shall be received into the meat-chambers on board ships, unless the same be tendered in a thoroughly frozen condition. Clause 21. It is agreed that this contract shall be subject to ship, machinery, and chambers being reported upon as in every way fit to carry the meat safely.

APPENDIX B.

Possible Causes of Damage to Frozen Meat.

1. Storing the meat too long before shipment, whereby it becomes off-colour before it is put on board the ships. 2. Sending down meat to the ships before it is thoroughly frozen. 3. Allowing the meat to become partly thawed during transit from freezing-works to steamer. 4. Loading steamers in wet weather or very hot weather. 5. Putting meat into ship's chambers before they are thoroughly cooled down. 6. Insufficient dunnage on board ship, causing interruption in the free circulation of air in the ship's hold. 7. Deficient supplies of steam when steamers are trying to make fast passages, and are using more than the usual quantity of steam for propelling the vessel. 8. Defects arising in insulation in course of time, and not detected owing to superficial nature of examinations made before commencing each voyage. 9. The unreliability of engineers' logs, and the absence of checks upon these records, because self-registering thermometers are not used on the voyage to record irregularities in temperatures, which ought not to be allowed to vary any more than is absolutely necessary. 10. Faulty construction of ships' holds, some being so deep that the pressure is apt to interfere with the circulation at the bottom of the hold, unless the sheep are put on board perfectly hard ; or so low-pitched that in the course of discharge the top tiers become soft at the extremities of the chamber before the carcases nearer the discharging-point can be delivered from the ship. 11. Discharging in hot weather without due protection of the holds from the sun. 12. The impossibility of getting dock-labourers to work in the holds of ships if the engines are going, even in the hottest days. 13. The use of open barges (some insulated, some not insulated) for taking the cargo from the ship's side to the up-town stores in London (an objection which does not apply to the stores of the London Docks Committee, to which the meat is conveyed by rail if the ship is not discharging right alongside their stores). 14. Storing the meat too long in London after being discharged in hot weather or wet weather.

APPENDIX S. Reductions in Charges. Freight—lBBl to 1884 freight was ... ... 2d. per pound. 1885 „ ... ... lfd. 1886 to 1887 „ ... ... l*d. 1888 to 1890 „ ... ... lfd. 1891 to 1894 ... ... Id. i onr i- i i. ild. „ in summer; 1895 to date ~ ... ... ■' ~, • , i-fd. „ in winter. Freezing—To 1885 freezing was ... ... -J-d. 1889 to 1891 „ ... ... |d. 1891 to 1894 „ ... ... p. less 10 per cent. 1895 —Consolidated rates (freezing, freight, „ in summer; and bags), leaving for freezing i t l>i. „ in winter. Insurance has been reduced from £7 7s. to £2 15s.

APPENDIX T. Summary showing Average Values of Frozen Mutton in London. 1883, 6fd. per pound. 1888, 4fd. per pound. 1893, 4-Jd. per pound. 1884, sfd. „ 1889, 4fd. „ 1894, 4 x Vd. 1885, s|d. „ 1890, 4fd. „ 1895, 3|d. 1886, sd. „ 1891, 4fd. „ 1896, 3±d. 1887, 4id. „ 1892, *|d.

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[Papers handed in by Mr. T. Thompson (Appendices U and V).] APPENDIX U. Statement showing Comparative Bates for Cabkiage of Meat on Austbalian and New Zealand Bail ways. New South Wales Bates for Fresh Meat. Up to 15 miles... ... ... ... ... 10s. per 4-ton truck. 16 „ 25 „ ... ... ... ... ... 12s. 6d. 26 „ 30 ... ... ... ... 15s. 31 „ 35 ... ... ... ... 17s. 6d. 36 „ 45 „ ... ... ... ... ... £1 2s. 6d. 46 „ 55 „ ... ... ... ... ... £1 7s. 6d. New Zealand Bates. Mataura to Bluff, 49 miles, £1 2s. 6d. = for 601b. carcase. Concessions.—Special low rates granted on other parts of the Government lines, which, if nothing else is done, ours ought to be reduced to: Oamaru-Port Chalmers ... 68 miles ... 15s. = 4|d. for 601b. carcase. Batiofor ... ... 49 „ ... 10s. = 3d. Woodville-Spit ... ... 95 „ ... £1 Bs. = B|d. Eatio for ... ... 49 „ ... 14s. = 4Jd. „ Bluff-Port Chalmers ... 66 „ ... SI Sβ. = Bd. Batiofor ... ... 49 „ ... 7s. sd. = 2£d. Picton Section.—All goods of Classes A, B, C, D will be charged Class A, except meat, allowed to remain Class C. Limed pelts and tallow— Longburn to Foxton, 20 miles ... ... ... 7s. 6d. per ton. Tariff rate ... ... ... ... 10s. 7d. Beduction ... ... ... ... 3s. Id. „ Meat consigned by way of Manawatu Bailway Company's line to Wellington, or to stations on Wellington Section, will be charged Class D, a lower rate than Class C. Special low rates from Petone and Ngahauranga to Wellington are granted on page 48 of tariff for wool and other products of the sheep to freezing companies in that district. Ocean Beach to Bluff: distance, two miles.—Wool half classified rate. Tallow, cased meats, pelts, and coal carried at a reduction of Is. 6d. per ton. Other Colonies. Deniliquin to Echuca ... ... 45 miles ... 4s. 4Jd. per ton. Batiofor ... ... 49 „ ... 1-Jd. per 601b. carcase. Dubbo to Sydney ... ... ... 280 „ ... ss. 3d. per ton. Batiofor ... ... ... 49 „ ... 1-Jd. per 601b. carcase. Echuca to Melbourne ss. B|d. for 49 „ ... 2d. „ This summary clearly shows how heavily we are handicapped in comparison with other partsof our own colony, and frightfully so when compared to Victoria or New South Wales.

APPENDIX V. Statement of Bailage paid by the Southland Fbozen Meat and Pkoduce Expobt Company (Limited), since 1889. £ £ 1889 ... ... ... ... 1,145 1890 ... ... ... ... 1,380 1891 ... ... ... ... 2,470 Ist half of 1892 ... ... ... ... ... 1,6221 „. 2nd „ 1892 1,113) Z ' i6o Ist „ 1893 ... ... ... ... ... 2,276) „ Bin 2nd „ 1893 1,5341 d,Biu Ist „ 1894 2,741) . „. 2nd „ 1894 ... ... ... ... ... 1,9501 ,D Ist „ 1895 .. ... ... ... ... 2,423} . qR7 2nd „ 1895 ... ... ... ... ... 1,964) ,6al Ist „ 1896 ... ... ... ... 2,716 Total ... ... £23,334

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[Papers handed in by Mr. Sladden (Appendices W to Z).] APPENDIX W. Test made with Two Sheep at Ngahauranga Works. Sheep chambered Saturday, 15th August, 1896, at 2.15 p.m. Mean temperature of room, +7° Fahr. Weight of sheep: Mark No. 1, 701b., frozen weight; mark No. 2, 441b., frozen weight.

On Saturday, 15th August, 1896, 523 sheep were chambered at Ngahauranga, at 9.30 a.m. Temperature of chamber, +9° Fahr. At 4 p.m. on the same day 386 more sheep were put into the same room. After all the sheep were in, the temperature of the room was +25° Fahr.; 16th August, at 8 a.m., the temperature of the room was +21° Fahr. At 11 a.m., 17th August, the temperature of the room was +14° Fahr., and the meat hard enough for bagging and stacking.

APPENDIX X. On the 17th September, 1891, the hind-quarters of a bullock were sent into a chamber at a temperature of +10 Fahr., immediately after slaughtering. The hind-quarters of another bullock, killed at the same time, were put into the same chamber on the 18th September, and at the same time the balance of the mob, forty-five head, were put into another chamber.

APPENDIX Y. Questions asked of Mr. Thompson by Railway Depabtment. 1. Q. The rate for frozen meat from Mataura to Bluff, forty-nine miles, is £1 2s. 6d. per ton : what reduction in this rate do you seek? During the twelve months ending 30th April, 1895, from a return prepared, it appears you forwarded 163 trucks of frozen meat from Mataura to Bluff, and that the cost per sheep was 6'23d. : would the reduction you seek increase your output, and will you reduce your present charges to the producer to the full amount of the reduction sought ? How do you propose to do this ? What additional return per sheep will this give the producer ? A. We ask for reduction to Class E, and not less than a 50-per-cent. reduction meantime, as the department handicaps us as against other companies. 6-23 d. per sheep to April, 1895, includes all lamb as well, which, as you show, even comes out higher than the rate for live sheep. Then, in addition to dead-rate, you have to add —carcase, 6-23 d.; offal, o'3d.; wool, 0-07od. ; tallow,

Temi No. 1 Sheep. No. 2 Sheep. Temperature between Kidney-fat and Backbone. Date. Hour. ture of Room. External I Internal Temp. Temp. External Internal Temp. Temp. No. 1. No. 2. .Ugust 15 ... „ 16 ... „ 16 ... „ 16 ... „ 17 ... 4 p.m. 8.30 a.m. 12 noon 3.15 p.m. 8.15 a.m. Fahr. + 6 + 4 + 4 Zero Fahr. + 37 + 19 + 17* + 15 + 5 I Fahr. + 581 + 291 + 28i + 26i + 5i Fahr. + 371 + 19 + 17* + 16 + 5 Fahr. + 59 + 29i + 26 + 22 + 5i Fahr. + 68 + 271 + 25 + 22 + 7 Fahr. + 65 + 25 + 23 +■17$ + 7

Hind-qi arters sent in Hot. Hind-qi larters sent in Cold. Hind-qi larters of 45 Head. September, 1891. Temp, of Room. Temp. Meat Outside. Temp. Meat Inside. Temp, of Temp. Meat Outside. Temp. Meat Inside. Temp. of Koom. Temp. Meat Outside. Temp. Meat Inside. Room. 16th, "11 a.m. 16th, 5 p.m. 17th, 8 a.m. 17th, 5 p.m. 18th, 8 a.m. 18th, 5 p.m. 19th, 8 a.m. 19th, 5 p.m. 20th, 8 a.m. 21st, 8 a.m. 21st, 5 p.m. 22nd, 8 a.m. 23rd, 8 a.m. 24th, 8 a.m. 25th, 8 a.m. 26th, 8 a.m. Deg. 9 12 10 11 10 11 9 10 10 10 9 10 10 10 10 10 Deg. 87 56 30 23 18 14 13 13 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 Deg. 95 70 57 49 36 33 30 29 26 24 23 21 19 16 14 12 Deg. 10 11 9 10 10 10 9 10 10 10 10 10 Deg. 59 32 24 16 14 13 13 13 12 12 12 12 Deg. 68 55 45 36 34 30 28 25 23 20 17 15 Deg. _7 + 30 24 20 16 10 5 0 -5 _ 4 -5 _4 Deg. 59 49 35 32 27 18 15 12 9 7 4 2 Deg. 67 62 54 53 49 39 34 32 28 25 21 18

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0-s(l.—total, 7'7Bd. This is practically not a sheep, but something considerably less, and not a fair comparison. To do justice, the department ought to separate sheep and lambs, as the latter show quite as large a reduction in proportion as the sheep. Eeturn of 3id. per sheep to the farmer. 2. Q. You have urged, have you not, that the railway-rate for dead sheep should be assimilated to that of the live-sheep rate ? A. We say there should not be any favour shown to live over dead stock, as is the case at present ; and, if no general reduction is contemplated, the department must, in justice to users of dead-meat rates, put the two on an equal footing. 3. Q. Reckoning sixty sheep per truck—a large average —this gives a rail-freight of s'9d. per sheep : do you consider that a reduction of per sheep would benefit the producer to any appreciable extent ? A. It is not a question of one-third of a penny, it is one-third of per ton-rate —viz., £1 2s. 6d. —that requires reduction to equal live rates. 4. Q. During the six months ending 13th August your company railed from Mataura to Bluff 157 trucks of frozen meat on twenty-four days : must not the cost of working an intermittent traffic of this character be relatively high in comparison with a regular daily business? A. No ; the department are at no extra cost so far as our two works are concerned, the whole of the traffic being carried by the ordinary trains in every case. I myself think we should at times have a special for ten vans or upwards, to sometimes avoid the meat remaining in the trucks at Invercargill all night. 5. Q. Is it not a fact that for a month at a time you do not rail any frozen meat from Mataura to Bluff? Did you rail any meat between these points from 18th February to 18th March, or from Ist April to sth May, or from 9th May to Ist June, or from 27th June to 7th August? Does this not mean that expensive and specially-built insulated cars must, as a general thing, stand idle or be hauled immense distances to do work elsewhere ? Are you not aware that these cars are frequently hauled empty from Port Chalmers, and even from Oamaru, to Southland free of charge, for your use? Does this not add very greatly to the railway-cost of working your business? A. Yes;'when sheep are scarce. No; as they do not stand idle all the time. (This from my own knowledge.) Then, what about the department's large sheep-trucks ? They cannot be used for anything but sheep, and are often idle, vet the two rates per truck bear no comparison. Yes ; they are to haul in some cases as stated : not always, however. Yes ;it must of course cost money to haul them. At the same time, why particularly instance the meat-cars? The department has other trucks—ordinary, sheep, &c.—to haul in just the same way to meet traffic. This is well enough known to any one with a knowledge of railway traffic. 6. Q. You have compared the rates for short distances with rates for long distances : are you not aware that the charges for use of station-sidings and shunting are the same for a five-mile journey as for a 500-mile journey? Is it fair, therefore, to expect a freight-charge for fifty miles at one-tenth of the freight-charge for 500 miles. A. I have compared both short and long; and a look at the evidence I have given will show you that New South Wales give the cheap rates on short and long. The department does away with the second part of this question by their giving differential rates in the colony for short and long. 7. Q- Taking your method of comparing rates, would not the charge for fifty miles be ten times the charge for five miles ? Does any railway system in the world base its freight-charges on such a system ? Is it not the universal practice to charge freight less per mile for a 500-mile journey than for a fifty-mile journey? A. See 5 and 6. Yes, New South Wales. There can be no comparison, as railage in New Zealand does not extend to any such distances. 8. Q. You have referred to the low rates ruling from Oamaru to Port Chalmers : are you not .aware that water-communication exists between those points ? Is it not necessary to make very low rates on railways where water - competition exists? Supposing the freight charges on the Government railways were reduced to the level of the lowest competitive rates, the revenue would fall enormously: would not the taxpayer have to meet the deficiency? Supposing trie competitive rates wure abandoned and the business carried by water, would not the railway revenue suffer? In this way might it not be necessary to raise the non-competitive rates, in order to augment the revenue? Ho tViat indirectly the non-competitive rates are kept down by the fact that competitive business is secured by special rates. Is this not so ? A. Yes; but it cannot affect the frozen meat, as only the Home steamers, duly insulated, would carry it. And if the steamers cannot get into Oamaru, the department would get the railage in any case. Well, I presume the revenue would at first be less, but would no doubt increase as time went on, and it is my opinion that the taxpayer would not object, as no doubt the voters will ■show at the next election—at least, such will be the case in Southland. And why should not the Government help this industry—the most important in the colony —the same as it does mines, •dairy, scenery, &c, &C. ? There can be no water-carriage of frozen or dead meat locally. No; I do not think so, if dealt with as above. 9. Q. Are you not aware that; frozen meat is carried enormous distances by rail in New South Wales? Are you not aware that the average distance live-stock is carried on New South Wales railways is 245 miles ? Is not the shorter transit-distance a distinct gain to the New Zealand producer ? A. Yes ; the nature of the colony causes this. Possibly so. Yes, in one sense ; but our rates are out of all proportion, hence really there is no comparison. 10. Q. In quoting Australian rates, have you not omitted to inform the Committee that in the case of frozen meat a minimum freight-charge is made of 5 tons for each small car and of 12

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tons for each bogie-car? Is this done in New Zealand? Would not such a regulation largely increase the rates in New Zealand ?

A. This may be so. No, Not in our case, as we as a rule load all the frozen-meat vans up to their capacity. 11. Q. Are you aware that the charge for chilled meat per bogie-car from Bourke to Darling Harbour-is £28 per car? So that, although the rate is a low one calculated at per ton per mile, the charge amounts to Is. 2d. per sheep. Is this not so? Is it not a fact that the site of your works at Mataura was iixed upon on account of the cheap water-power available being a set-off against the cost of railway-freight to Bluff and Port Chalmers at that time ? A. This is quite right, and only shows one of the long-distance low rates. Short distances aie also as low. No ; not that lam aware of. The main reason was to be able to lower freezingcharges. And, as a matter of fact, we shall be in a position shortly to freeze at Bluff for within a decimal or two of our Mataura rate per pound. 12. Q. Are you aware that the rate for frozen meat from "Waipukurau to Spit, forty-six miles, is £1 Is. 3d. per ton? A. This is simply a tariff quotation, and really does not affect the question, except they should also have the reduction we ask for. 13. Q. Does not your company buy sheep for freezing? A. No, not now. They did formerly. 14. Q. You have called the attention of the Committee to what you consider an anomaly —viz., that dead rabbits are carried at half the dead-sheep rates. Are you not aware that this low rate was made many years ago at the request of persons who desired to create a trade in an article which had become a serious menace to the prosperity of the colony ? Are you not also aware that the value per pound of rabbits is below that of sheep ? Are not rabbits sold f.o.b. at the Bluff and Port Chalmers for 10d. per pair, or equal to lfd. per pound? Cannot you load a greater weight of frozen rabbits in a truck than you can of sheep ? Is not the average load per truck of frozen mutton about 3 tons 3cwt., whilst frozen rabbits give a load of 5 tons 3cwt. per truck ? A. Yes, and to help the rabbit-export industry by tinning; and if it is right to help such a small' industry as this, then how much more important it must be to foster the frozen meat! Babbits are not of less value per pound in London than sheep—at the present moment the rabbits are higher. In some cases they are; but the bulk are sent on consignment —say, 25 per cent, sold and 75 per cent, on consignment. Undoubtedly ; at the same time, please remember that you carry the rabbit at half-rate, without making any minimum, so that all parties participate, which is quite right. I cannot say the exact loads; but, as I said before, we load up to their capacity, and the department have no extra haulage with us. 15. Q. You are also asking for a reduction in the rate for frozen meat from Wallacetown to Bluff, are you not ? Do you rail frozen meat from Wallacetown ? Is it not the case that you rail only fresh-killed sheep from Wallacetown to Bluff ? What weight of such dead sheep do you load in each wagon from Wallacetown to Bluff? Does not this low average load of about 2 tons per wagon make the rate a very low one per truck? The rate is 11s. 10d. per ton, is it not, for this journey of twenty-two miles? What reduction do you seek? What benefit could such a reduction be to the producer ? Would it be likely to increase your business ? What proportion would the reduction bear to the total cost of marketing the produce in London ? Would not a reduction of 20 per cent, in this rate amount to no more than fd. per sheep? A. We ask for reduction of dead as well as frozen. No ; fresh meat. Yes. Two tons, I think. No, it does nothing of the kind: for instance, 2 tons, at 11s. 10d., £1 3s. Bd.; same size truck sheep, 16s : say, 5 tons grain, which is over the average —5 tons, at 4s. 10d., £1 4s. 2d. ; and so on. See question 1. Near 2d. per sheep. Producer would get this. Yes, it would. About 5 per cent. 20 per cent, off Mataura is near l'4od. per head, and 20 per cent, off Wallacetown is near Id. per head.

APPENDIX Z. Questions asked Mr. Anderson by Bailway Department. 1. Have you ever had occasion to complain of defective railway-trucks? —Yes. 2. When did you first complain? —Several months back. 3. To whom did you complain? —Mr. Gaw. 4. Was your meat damaged in these trains?—We believe so. 5. When was it damaged?—ln hot weather. 6. In what way was it damaged? —By being soft outside, and dirty wraps. 7. How long have you been using these trucks?— For years. 8. Have you had general satisfaction in their use? —With the large vans. 9. Are you aware that meat is carried in these trucks in perfect order from Timaru to Lyttelton ?—Yes. 10. How can you account for meat being damaged for the shorter journey and not for the longer ?—Because the trucks are frozen down. 11. Are you aware that the Timaru meat is standing at Christchurch and Lyttelton for hours at times, because ships do not work before 8 a.m., and because ships can only take a certain quantity on board per hour?— Should not be. 12. The Committee has been told that Mr. Botheram, the Locomotive Superintendent, has lately visited Ghristchurch especially to see you about general complaints you have recently made about the trucks. What were the conclusions you arrived at after consulting with Mr. Botheram ? — That the trucks will be put in good condition. We have no complaints to make against the large vans, which are well constructed.

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13. I understand that large quantities of your meat were landed in London about four months ago in bad order. Did you complain at the time to the Railway Department in connection with the condition of the meat ? How do you account for so much meat being damaged this last season in comparison with previous, the same trucks and railway facilities being used ?—We have no knowledge that large quantities of our meat were so landed. It is only reported that certain ships turned out their meat bad. 14. In regard to quick transit of meat from works to Port : how long does it take ?—One to three hours. 15. What is the longest time you have known meat in transit by rail on the line from Islington to Port ?—Prom time of loading to discharge, twelve to thirteen hours. 16. What trains take the meat to Port? Give details of trains throughout the day?— See list put in. 17. How is the meat worked from Timaru? —By train. 18. Have you complaints about the condition of Timaru meat on arrival at Lyttelton by train? —Seldom. 19. Can you give particular instances ?— 20. Have you any difficulty in getting suitable train-arrangements at Islington ?—We want the trains to leave always before 6 a.m. 21. Have you not had all the special trains last season you have asked the railway for?— When we have agreed to use all the trucks. 22. Have you not refused during last summer special trains to work ships early in the morning at Lyttelton, and also at night ? —Not to my knowledge. 23. Why is it inconvenient for ships to work early and late?— Shaw, Savill and Albion Company wish to work early. 24. Is it not on account of the expense that ships do not care to work overtime ?—Both lines can be made to take the sheep when the works wish. 25. Is it not inconvenient for your works to load meat for a special train to arrive at Lyttelton before 6 a.m. and after sundown ? —No. 26. Would it not be better to incur extra expense in order to market the produce in perfect order?— Cannot say. 27. Would it not pay handsomely to do so ?—Cannot say. 28. Would it not be better to load meat from freezing-works into railway-wagons under cover, in a cool-chamber, instead of in the open ?—lt makes no matter if the trucks are frozen down. 29. Do not some freezing-works arrange for loading in this way ? —Yes. 30. Do you do so at Islington ?—No. 31. Do you do so at Timaru?—Yes. We could not load the quantity from Islington in this way. What I say is that special trains should leave Islington at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m., with thirty vans, which would take the bulk of a day's work. This would be all we require, If this is not granted, then trains of not more than ten vans should be run frequently.

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