THE LAND BILL.

Waikato Times, Volume LVII, Issue 8067, 29 November 1906, Page 2

THE LAND BILL.

IION. E. McNAB AT THE TOWN HALL. THE MEASUEE EXPLAINED. Considering the importance of the tuV ji'ct. which it was known would be dealt with by the Hon B. MoNab, Minister for Lauds and Agriculture, there was not such a large audience at the Town Hal l , Hamilton, last nigh t,as was expected.though theb'dyof the building was weiltilled, In? Worship t v ie Mayor of Hamilton, Mr J. S. Bond, presided, ani there was en the p'at form the following gentlemen :—Messrs i>. J. Greensiade, M.H.R, E. J. Paull, J. B. Teasdale, R. Bradley, E. Parr, Eobert Morse, John Ferguson, M. Gardiner, W. G. Davis and J. A. Young. Mr McNab, en rising to speak, was received with prolonged applause. He said before he commenced to explain why he was there, he would like to siy that it had not been his intention to visit this portion of the colony until further on. With this ot j <ct in view, a programme was arranged covering the months of February and March of the new year. He hoped at that time to make himself fairly well acquainted with the requirements of the district. But the unfortunate and unhappy death, whic" reudered a vacancy in the electorate adjoin ing Auckland, brought birn earlier than he had intended. He thought it scarcel) fair that an election should take place after such an important measure as the Laud Bill had been postponed, without it being put before the electors. He came up, not to take part in the contest, but to provide that the electors in that district should not be compelled to come to the ballot and record their votes until they understoo i tie true bearing of the Land Bill. He thought it would be a fitting opportunity to run up to Hamilton and deliver his promised address, so that next time he wou'd be able to devote more attention to their wants. Ho did not wish to confine hitnself entirely to the Land Bill; he wanted to say a word or two abmt the departments under his control. When Sii Joseph Ward was called upon to form a Ministry, they would all agree that he had a difficult task. Ue was called upon to follow the greatest leader this colony had ever seen. (.Applause). He would go further and saythat the high pinnacle of his fame in this country was no higher than it was in other Und.s. To follow a great man was always * difficult task, and 6ir Joseph Ward on top of other difficulties found himself on t lie other side of the world, it was a peculiar coincidence tnat two of the men who were to bu his future colleagues, were :it that time also in England, tie referred tothollon. George Fowldi and himself, one of the tnat:ers dealt with by Sir Joseph in the Cabinet, and which hodetor-

miued to put in tun forefront, was the upto date administration of the Agricultural Deputment. When he asked the speaker to take over the portfolio, he asked him to see if it could not be brought up abreast of the other Departments of the State. It was tin. 1 intention of the Government, in

carrying on the important department of Agriculture, to endeavour by every means in its power to bring to the assistance ot farmers of this country the most modern and up-to-date methods. Tint day, as he wbot over their beautiful Country and the

State farm, he found that a great doil ot work had bjen done by his predecessor, for which, he was afnid, very little credit

had been giveu to fue uovoruuient. Tne state farm was ahead of others in the

colony, a tribute, not only to his pre<:eoe

sor, but to the otiijers of the department as well, who hid toiled to make the farm the sucoess it was. He did notsupposthat since the late Sir John McKenzie first brought down his proposal to form an agricultural department for the ooLny there had been one step taken that hau not brought forward the greatest amount of opposition and hostility. These farms had established in various parts oi the colony, aud it was the intention of the Government during the coming year to have the whole of tae colony repotted on, iiid this policy of establishing experimental farms was to be carried as far as it was possible to carry it. He hoped to su jinn proposals to his colleagues to bring the State farms thoroughly up-to-date, and if it was necessary to estaO.ieh any more, to have them put at once under way. 'I hat was all he came to say to them ■n that subject at the present time. He did not want to at once go into the question of land legislation without asking them to go back in the history of the country for a tew years to realise what a Minister of Lands had to neet in bringing down land proposals. He did not suppose that maoy persons in the colony would consider thai there was the slightest difficulty in the world in bringing down a land bill. If he were to ask them individually what form a land bill shculi take that would meet with acceptance, they would say it was the simplest thing in the world. There was no more difficult problem than to f ram i a land policy, 'ihey had in the cjlony men who believed that there was no proper system .f settling the lands of the colony unless it had us its basis the leasehold. Others believed it was absolute ruin to the oountry unless the system provided for the right ot getting the freehold.

THE VALUATION CONTdOVEKSY. TLo audience was composed, he took it* wholly of thjae who believed it the most simple thing- in the world to bring down a Land bill ttiat would pass if only there were sufficient of the freehold in it. In the present House of Representatives, ot which a bare m.j jnty were probably aent to support the freehold, a gre <-t divergence of viewß existed on that question. On an iiuaiysis there wuuld be found more freeholders than leaseholder?, and a great many electors no doubt thought, when told chat the problem was solved. "Far from it, and, to illustrate the extremes to which members wect Mr AlcNab said he would first instauce one of the Southern Otago members, who believed that toe freehold sh >uld be given to all Crown tenants, but m details, urged that this should be on the origiual value. One of the Anokhnd members, on the other hand, supported the grunting of the freehold to the leißS in perpetuity holders, but maintained that if given on the original value would be robbery by the people of the ;ities if the colony (tpplauae), How, the speaker asked, was it possible to get these two men to vote in the same lobbies. In his j mrney up through the colony the thing that struck biui most was the c inviotion that the people had failed to realise theee difficulties. It was all v>-ry well taying to the politician that there was a mij irity of freeholders in the II -use, consequently it must be easy to bring in a measure, but when they came to values, the differences were much more apparent. Tho6o who advocated that the i riginal value should be the basis of negotiation, contended that if a block of laud winch at first was worth JilOO was uow worth jELOGO, the tenant should be a lowed to puichase for the £IOO. That proposal would be defeated in the present freehold House by a majority not short of twenty, then if that were defeated, the only thing to exptC. would be that the freeholders would try to get the other prop ,sal through, that was, for the freehold at the present valuation. He could tell them that that would also be defeated by a sub cUotial majority. In regard to tenanti on loase in perpetuity and other Crown tenants, he would be told that they had gone into the markets of the oolony and had purchased in the open markets at current rates, aad they asked why they should be asked to pay present valuition 'lieaioand time. These men would tell them that they would rather hive the present conditions than have the freehold at tne present valuation. He ventured to say of everyone who held a lease in perpotdity that, rather than take up the freehold by pa)ing an extra price in a high market, they would say, having no alternative they would prefer to stay under their old system. A great many supported freehold beoause they believed Parliament was going to give it to them at the original value. When they beoame aware that they would have to pay the present value they would rather remain as they were. He did not ask the audience to say to its member " l'ou nimt vote for '■ that Bill." He would say that if the pre- ! sent member was a supporter of the free S hold at the original v,.lue that question is I perfectly site so far as his H.U was con- | corned. If, on the other hand, he was a supporter of the present value being asked the '|uestion was also safo. Both proposals were going to be defeated. PAYING OFF <M PER CENT.

The Government in fact says,''We are prepared to allow all holders of lease in p.upetuity whether they own the land simply as Crown land tenants or under Lands for Settlement." You may pay on the capital value of your leases any amounts up to 90 per cent., and immediately yon have paid off 50 per cent, we will reduce your rent to that extent, and you will then have to pay only one-half of your old rent. When you have paid off the 90 per cent. you will have only one-tenth of the original rent to p»y, and further, the State will not ask you to u)inply with the old vexatious, harassing covenants." The moment the 50 per cent. was paid, there wuuld be concessions. There would no longer be r.qjired the eonsul'stion t the Land Board before transferring pro lorty. He qn ted a case in the colony in which toe Laud lizard, after examining aa intending purchaser a,* to tu« state of hit

banking acoount, refused to consent to the transfer until the seller agreed t > redoes his prioe by £IOO. The Board did not claim that the price asked was not to much, but it said th it having a knowledge of the purchaser's financial position, it w..s of opinion that he could not afford to pay the rent unless the pr.ee wis reduced. The result was that the seller had to reduce his price, and thus lose £ 00 whoh the purchaser had be; n willing to pay. Complaint had been made if the cropping conditions, and he could tell them that when 50 per cent, of the value had booi paid off the holder could do exactly what he liked, jut as it he had tho freehold and of course he would have to continue the payment of the rent on the 10 per cent, still remaining, and the old residents clause would still be enforced. The Government intended to put them in possession of a practical freehold for the long term of 999 terms on payment of only 10 per cent, of the original rent. So far as the leasehold was concerned it was liberal and just treatment which he did not think had ever been offered to any in that audience before. He wanted to meet all the arguments fairly and squarely ; they would answer, butt i is not the freehold ?He admitted that. They would not contend, why not take the remaining step and give the other 10 per cent? He admitted that itiwas merely a question of sentiment between the granting and retaining of the freehold, but, he asked, who was to sacrifice his sentiment — leaseholder or freeholder ? (Laughter) Speaking now, not as a farmer, bnt as a trustee for the p«ople of the colony, entrusted with great responsibility he had to 'isk whire the sacrifice should ba.

THE FUTURE. It was correct to argue that it would in the case of the lease in porpetuity be 999 years before the national estate fell into the hands of the Crown again ; there was a very large area held under this tenure. This colony had parfad with an immense estate under thsse conditions. Tne nation lived on, though individuals perished, and there would come to this nation a day vvhen a vast estata would fall into its possession. The nation would, he hoped, last much longer than the 999 years, and before that time had expired land now vorth little or nothing would support a large population, and those areas of land aow reckoned at only £3,000,000 wouli probably be worth £JO 1,000,000. Tais was in enormous amount to go into the Sta'e it th 9 end of 999 ye»rs, wnich was held only by that little link of 10 per cent., ■vhicii would one day prove the heritage jf tne people ®f this country. (Applause;, tie was speaking that night not as one nerely living here a few years, but aa tht) representative of a calony that long before

hat time would have blossomed into a lation. (Applause). There was a grej.t attachment for the freelnld in land, but chey should remember that there was i, great sentiment also in the minds of those opposing the alienation of Crown lands.

MOVEMENT FAVOURING LEASE HOLD.

All over the world the latter sentiment was growing stronger and stronger than the other. Tney could not denv that thera ■vas a great and growing feeling in the : immunity that leasehold in soun form or another should exist [A voica: The Land Commission did not say that.] If the Land Commission had foreseen now useless its labours wouli have been a vast sum would have baen saved the ountry. (Applause.) It would be impossible until the personnel of tne II iiise was changed to bring down a Bill to allow the leaseholder to get the rreehold. Ha did not want to win their suppart to the propasala by means of any-

.hiag that it might be in his power to oooceal, but he would tell thein that when the proposal was host b'ougnt forward he

.id cot think that it would be siffiueut m tself to carry with it a of the

I juse of Representative-; who believed ii

the leasehold tenure. Without the slightest hesitation he could say that, the proposals, so far as the lease-in-perpetuity was concerned, would in the main b> .cceptibl i. But he did bay that it ibey expected thi* to be put on the Statute book without the other proposals they wee building castles in the air. Tne only way to get these on the Statute book was to help the Government to lay that the renaming lands should be disposed of under the leasehold system. He believed if the oosition was not accepted in that form or in some modification of it there would be

qo relief for the buriens or lease-in

perpetuity holders. A large portion of he unsold lands should bi put wide as national eaiowments of some form or another. SIXTF-SIX YEARS' LEASE.

The 66 years lease was advocated bee mse it was found that if a man took up land here 'n the prime of h ; s life, the period then included in the term m>re than covered the rest of his life. They therefore ensured that any imn taking up this lease in the beginning of his prime of physical manhood would not be troubled by the revaluation of it. There was theu provision for one renewal at the old rental, so that, in reality, there was 132 years to

elapse b fore any change was made. The revaluation was effected by the owner appointing one arbitrator, and the Government a second, these two appointing their own umpire. What could be fairer? Mr McNab asked. SOME ADVANTAGES.

Onca a man had paid off up to 'JO per cent, he would be in a strong financial p.s.tioD, and, in actual fact, his land would never be surrendered, for the Government was prepared to adopt a system similar to that of premiums to life insurance. If a man intiunted that he did not find it convenient to pay his rent immediately he would give notice to the Land for Settlement Department, and it would pay hia rent on year after year, and deduct it from the accumulated credit standing in the jooks until that man had got down to the 50 per cent, again, and then the Department oried a halt. If at any time horopter the man could pay that meney back, he oould restore the land to the original 90 percent, Ibis was an enormous advantage given to the tenants of the colony. Any man who had paid up to 90 per cent, could ask the Land Boird to pay him back the amount over 50 per cent., and thus ho g>t a loan without fees or charges of any k'nd, and could repay it again to the 90 per cent., for he would still havo paid up to 50 per cent. He did not know how many of the audience had boen called upon to pay rent, but if he knew that he could tell how many would like to be in a position to •ay to the land lord that they did not find it convenient to piy rent at any particular time. Yet that was what the Government allowed their tenants to do. There was another condition that could be put into the lease to make it more just—he would not say attractive—people thought the whole thing could be settled easily if only an attractive tenure was offered. But he did not think the moat attractive was always the most just. Were he entirely ignorant of farming conditions in this oolony he would not hold hia present position. He was a tiller of the soil, an 1 frankly if he were asked whit tenure he preferred, would say the freehold if he could get-it. (Laughter). He knew that a great number of lease-in-perpetuity holders said: " We are not satisfied with this ; we want the freehold." He did not deny that a great many tenants want 1 the freehold; and he was perfectly cartnio that if he were a lease-in-perpetuity holder him ; elf, and he thought there was a prospect of g-tting the freehold, he would do all that he could to get it. (Applause.) If he thought that he could possibly get it as a free gift from the State he would not hesitate to do all that he could to get it—in faot, he would try to get all that could be got by agitation. (Laughter.) TIE ENDOWMENT CLAUSES. He was told that in the Auckland district there was a groat deal of hoatility to the proposal for large national endowments. It showed the difference of opinion between the North and the South Islands. The press in the North leland said the difficult proposals to be carried in the Land j Bill were those relating t) the national | endowments. The South Island press said ; " We oan readily understand that the ■■ Ministry will find in difficulty in carrying I the national endowment proposals, (heat ■ hear). The difficulty they will llnd will be thß limitation of private estates." Why was there the difference between the Norti'" and the South ? The reason was that in the Soutn, particularly in the extreme South, one of the first things they did, an i I it was very wise of them to do so (the pity : was that it had not baen done all over the colony) was to place aside large endowments for Church and education. And si, I at this day, they wore valuable endow I menls. LIMITATION OF ESTATES. For the first time in the history of the i colony there waa in Bill form a proposal, ' not only to limit the holding of land but 'to limit the buying of lan J. He ha I i been surprised to find that some pub io men and the Farmers' Union had for years advooated the limitation of land holdings. The Government said that any man who 1 owned over £ 50,000 worth at improved valuation, should be given 10 years to get rid of the excess of that property on the market. If improved and cultivated as the Buakura Experimental Farm was, the property would be worth from XtOO,OUO to ; iillOjOOO. The market at present was very good for disposing of land, and if they gave I a man 10 years to sell it in they rjeuid not I hi mi to he unduly huty. The Govern.

ment asked a man in 10 years to dispose of the excess, to reduce his property down to 450,( 00 worth, and gave him a free hand to sell, subject to certain statutory limitations, and at the end of the 10 yt-as, inV the case of any land nut reduced to the £50,000 limi*, the Minister for Lands f tapped in and cut out a pi oe that would equal the excess, and put it on the m rket. 'lhat was oil the Government interference with those who owned land at the present i timi) with one exc ption. He would give an example of what w,is poss.ble now. la a Southern dietrct there waß a small "property of scrno 150 acres put into the market, and there had been no land in that district in the market for a long time. The valuation on the valu.tion lists was £ll an acre. There was a working man in the ! locality who had been saving up --for years to buy a property, and he went to loii at this place. Alongside it was an wnorinously large estate, and the man found he would have to bid pretty high. He arranged with the bank for credit, and found be could bid £22 per acre, but the land wen; up to £26 an acre, and at that figure was knocked down to the ownerMf cue enormous estate alongside, who already had three times as much land as he knew what to do with. Jf the colony was going to prosper was that condition of things going to be allowed to continue. (Voices: So!") He wai glad to hear them say " No," for he did not think any colony was going to prosper if it allowed its land laws co be worked in that way. (Applause.) The Ward Government said this condition f things was not going to exist any Tonger. They knew h >w the people of the colony ■vera aroused to enthusiasm and action when they were tld that by means of ch-jap labour and insanitary living manufacturers of other countries could undersell our produoars, and how they agmad to increases in Customs duties of 30, 40, 50, ay ; even 100 per ceat., that our industries might be protected. How, it might be isked, would the limitation clause affect the owners of large private estates who desired to sell ? Well, he could tell them of one large estite whioh had recently been sold—a beautiful estate which he wonld no" have minded owning himself. (Lsitjrhter). The land was purchase 1 by a small •yndicate who afterwards cut it up and resold it in small areas at a profit of £40,000. Would they not hive liked to have been in that syndioate ? (Laughter). If the Bill had been pissed into law this transaction i;mld not have taken place, as the value of the estate was considerably ii exoess of £15,000. Tnen the owner could not have sold exc<pt by cutting up the lf.fld and selling it in small lots. The same class of people wouli have purchased it, but the £tO,ooo would have gone into the pockets of the owner instead of into the pockets of the syndicate, who did nothing with the laud except to empby an auctioneer and a surveyor. LIMITATION OP PURCHASES. He would now refer to the exception i mentioned before while dealing with limitation of estates, The owner might cut a property into two, and hand one portion to his eldest son and hold the other and buy adjoining land. That was expected, and - that he proposed to deal with in this way: that when the Act > came into consideration every man > who bought l>ind from another had got to " make a declaration when the laud' was ' transferred that he was not the owner of; 1 such an area of land which, added to the) 3 pieoe he intended to buy, exceeded £15,00 ' in value. He (the speiker) regarded that ) as the great olause in the Land Bill, the I greatest of all cliuses. It meant that » when a man of limited Oipital (ll'rod a e price for a farm for legitimate cultivation, r lie would hj: sutu that one was bidding - against him who owned a farm worth mote o that £15,000. (Applause) II THE PROSPECTS.

Mr McNab siid that in the present state of the House there was no possibility of getting the freehold for the leaseholder. t'he best thing to be done was to gee the lease clear of as in my restrictions as was practical. He knew that many prophesied taat when tne 90 per oeut. was granted it was only a matter tor agitation before the to naming ten per cent went. But it was a task in which one could spend a lifetime, vi I the present Minister for Linda and the existing Parliament would not grant it. NATIVE LANDS. With regard to Nttive Lands he could only say that it was out of his province to leal with them. I hoy were not in his jurisdiction or control, and he was.there that night to discuss with theu the land question, as far as it affected the Minister of Lands. The only control he had over che native lands of the colony was after they had been taken over by the Board and vested in the Crown. They wonld, therefore, see that he was unable to supply them with any information, and was not in a position to disouss them. GENERAL. There was a great deal he would eay behind this ownership of lands. He would like to say a word or two to impress them with the importance of private ownership of lands. It was his privilege a few months ago to visit the Eastern States of America and Canada on his j >urney to England. The speaker prooeeded to deal with the ovi's of allowing large companies to control enterprises that in New Zealand thaJState undertook, detailing some of his observations in United States and Canada. Here they had a State Earui where experiments wera carried on from year's end to year's ead, to show them l-ow they could best cultivate the class of land, such as they had in the Waikato. Did they know the results if experiments cariied out at the Levin State Farm with reference to milking herds, where the cows had been classified with a view to determining -their relative values ? The Department was alive to the importance of keeping good animals, uid he was at the present time trying to get some of the best cows that oould be purchase! to make the bisis of a milking herd. I'he Depirtuient intended to build up a herd that would supply large quantities of milk. It was using their money and ifis to mike this colony a greater producer, which moau.i greater wealth to the colony, tie had no intention of nationalising the eol> ny's lands, though he had bo n accused of being a land nationalises He never had such inteutions, the result of the Lands for Settlement policy was to do the very thing that the people were charging him with tryin? to do with his hill j that was, to purohasa large estates. He wantsd them to get their own freeholds for ever and ever. He was deliberately asking them to notice a policy that wffuld perpetuate the freehold. He did not place ou the Statute Book a requirement com. pelting owners themselvei to place their lan is on the market, it would be neoessary for him to ask Parliament to borrow three quarters ef a million, instead of half a million, and the time would come when it would reach the tremendous total of la million. He lnd suggested this course and had met by a howl, that it was a policy of terminating the ireehold. Why, it was a polioy of continuing the freehold for over and ever. He was not a laud nationlisar. What was the ! use of getting the colony to do the subdivision of land if the people would do it themselves r If after they had given consideration to his arguments, they were able to see eye to e>e with him, they must ;{ive the Government credit for having tt taoklei the problem. That admission would be a lngn honour to him to reraise. If they could not, well they had met in a fair held, and had discussed the matter in open court. Men would not be able or [ qu tlifiei to attain to Ministerial rank if • they did not realise that behind all their " ideas of what ought to be, everything had j to be subordinated to the power oi the people based in the ballot box. Mr McNab resumed his seat amidst loud and prolonged applause, Mr J. A. Young said they had listened * to a very interesting speeoh, and though there might be a number of them who ' could not agree with Mr McNab, they must say that his ooming to them waß oaloulated ' to do good, and to clear up many points on I which they were in doubt, He moved I " that the Hon. Mr MoNab be tendered a hearty vote of thanks Lr his interesting ( and able address on the Government's land ; policy, and that this meeting approves of his resolve to prosecute a vigorous oam- ( psign of explanation throughout the oot lony." (Applause), i Tiie motion was seconded by Mr 8. | Knight and carried almost unanimously," Mr McNab acknowledged the vote, and I moved a vote of thanks to the Mayor for presiding.

This was carried by acclamation and the