Provincial Council.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 447, 20 October 1869, Page 2

Provincial Council.

__♦ Tuesday, Oct. 19. The Speaker took the chair at 5 o'clock. PAPERS. Mr Jol ie laid the following papers on the table .— Reports from the Provincial Engineer and the Chief Surveyor on the irrigation of the plains, between the rivers Selwyn and Waimakariri. Rakaia Bridge contract and specification. Letter from Messrs Holmes and Co., referring to Mr Paterson's report on the condition of the Lyttelton and Christchurch Railway Tunnel. Return of the number of Crown Grants prepared during the period from Ist of January to lhe loth of October, 1869. Return of Reserves north of the Waimakariri, specifying acreage, the purpose for which they were made, and those for which Crown Grants have been obtained. Return of expenditure under General Contingencies, Schedules A and 0, during the six months ending Sept. 30, 1869. Balance sheet up to Sept. 30, 1869. CROWN GRANTS. Mr Brown asked the Provincial Secretary how many Crown grants have been prepared since Ist January last. The department cost a considerable amount of money, and he wished to know what amount of work was done. Mr Jollie laid a return on the table, which showed that 581 Crown grants had been prepared sinco the Ist January last. LANS FOn NORTHERN RAILWAY. Mr Brown aslted the Provincial Secretary if any of the land reserved for the Northern Railway has been sold, and if so, to whom. He had heard that some of the land reserved had been sold by mistake. Mr Jollie replied that he was not aware that any land reserved for the Northern railway had been sold, nor was he aware that any reserves could be sold without the consent of the Council.

:Mr Brown said he had been informed by Captain Morgan that he had purchased Section 1090, containing 15 acres of the reserve beyond Kaiapoi. Mr Jollie said he was not in a position now to state facts, but he would at some future time afford every information to the hon. member for Rangiora. OUST ROAD BOARD DISTRICT. Mr Jollie moved, " That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to proclaim the Cust Road Board District an agricultural district iv accordance with The Trespass of Cattle Ordinance, 1869." The resolution was agreed to. COURTENAY ROAD BOARD DISTRICT. Mr Jollie moved, "'I hat hi.-t Honor the Superintendent .be. respectfully requested to proclaim the Courtenay Koad Board District an agricultural district in accordance with the Trespass of Cattle Ordinance, 1869." The motion was agreed to. SIGNALLING OF VESSELS. Mr Webb moved, " That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent praying that steps ba taken for the proper signalling of vessels entering the port of Lyttelton." After some explanation from Mr Jollie, the hon member obtained leave to withdraw the resolution. / MESSAGE. f The Speaker announced a message from his Honor the Superintendent, intimating that a communication had been received from ihe Co'onial Government, asking if his Honor was prepared to take over a portion of the Maori prisoners, and be responsible for their safe keeping. His Honor had replied to tbe effect that the question was one for the Provincial Council to determine, and he hoped they would consider the matter at their earliest convenience. On the motion of Mr Jollie, the consideration of his Honor's message was fixed for next day. bosh land. Mr Potts moved, " That a return be laid on the table, shewing the total acreage of bush land over which Depasturing Licenses have been granted by the Waste Lands Board." The motion was agreed to. ' charitable aid. Mr Knight moved for a return of the number of persons in the receipt of charitable aid ; their age, sex, and condition in life. The motion was agreed to. reserves. Mr Knight moved " That in the opinion of this Council the educational, hospital, and lunatic asylum reserves, and tho reserves to provide a fund for the relief of the aged and infirm, Bhould be at once let by tender for a term not exceeding five years." After some discussion, the motion was withdrawn. diversion or roads special bill, 1869. Mr Wvnn Williams moved for leave to bring in the above bill. Leave was given ; the bill was brought in, and ordered to be read a first time next day. RANGITATA BRIDGE TOLLS BILL, 1869. On the motion of Mr Wtnn Williams, this bill was read a second time, committed, and reported to the House, witb amendments. The bill was ordered to be read a third time on Friday next. WAIBEWA AND SEFTON TOWNSHIP RESERVES BILL. On the motion of Mr Wynn Williams, this bill was read a third time and passed. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion of Mr Jollie, the House went into Committee of Supply. Mr Jollie said he wished to draw the attention of the Council to another copy of the estimates that had been laid on the table. Although it did not differ materially from the copy that had been laid on the table before, still some of tbe items were placed in a more intelligible form. It seemed to be the wish of the Council that it should be so, and the Government had complied with the wishes of hon. members. This would explain in a great measure why the items of expenditure in schedule A were larger than was expected. If the Council thought fit to vote them, they would only be spent if there was money to meet the votes. There was some doubt expressed as to whether the balance was at the bnnk or not. He held in his hand a copy of tbe cash balance on the 30th Sept., 1869, signed by the Provincial Auditor, which he would lay on the table for perus.l. For the information of hen. members, he wished to read the memorandum of the treasurer with regard to the way in which the estimates were arranged, so ua to meet the liabilities from the Ist October to the Ist of June. During the first seven months of the year, the Government ought to have enough to carry on until the pasturage rents were received. This memorandum explained the matter better than he could state it, and he would therefore read it to the Council. It was rather long, but he trusted that hon. members would have a little patience for the sake of the information which they would I receive. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member then read the memorandum referred to. The Chairman put the first item, namely, £12,607 under the head " permanent charges." j Mr Knight said that when progress waa reported at their last sitting on the estimates, it was with the understanding that when next hon. members met, the Government would have a balance-sheet placed on the table. He, for one, understood that ib would be placed in such a form that every hon. member might have it to refer to, but he found tbat it had been placed on the table as a written document. Therefore he had not been able to see it, and he did not much regret it, because he did not think that he would have been much the wiser if he had seen it. He could not help saying bow sincerely he sympathised with the Provincial Secretary when be made his financial statement, considering the false position in which he was placed. They all knew that he was

a gentleman who was outspoken, and who made a clean breast of it, without keeping anything hidden from the House. (Hear, hear.) He had a large task to fulfil. Ht (Mr Knight) defied anyone to justify the classification that had been made of tbe figures ; he could not understand on what principle they had been classified. The proceedings of last Thursday evening shewed more clearly than before how necessary it was that the treasurer should be a member of the Government and should sit on those benches opposite. (Hear, hear.) This was a point which he felt very strongly about and he hoped the Council would pass a resolution saying that it was necessary the treasurer should sit on those benches. It appeared to him. tbat the estimates had been put down on slips of paper, put into a hat and taken out handful after handful. The railway expenditure was put down in a lump sum, but he understood that some details would be given by the Government. When they had a Provincial Treasurer as part and parcel of the .Government, they occasionally voted large lump sums, and they had then not only a treasurer, but an able one, as he thought that every hon. member would admit. He was sorry that there were not more mtn of business connected with the Government, for he believed that if such were the case, a smaller staff of officials than at preeent employed would meet the requirements of the place. The Government came down and said that they had got £60^000 .to the credit of" Ordinary Bevenue, and £45,000 to Land and Works. In his Honor's address, a great deal was said about saving in this, that, and the other way, but how, he would ask, had this saving been effected.? The Council voted certain sums last year. Had the Government regarded these votes? If they had done so and then ■come down with a balance, it would be the duty of the Council to pass them a vote of thanks. He was informed that in some ca cs not more than 50 per cent, of the amounts voted "had been spent, and that in others even leas than 50 per cent, had been expended. The "first duty of the Government was to spend the money in accordance with the votes of tbe Council as far as tbe money would, go. He referred more particularly to the items ■-'Education" and "Road Boards." The Council told the Government last year that it wished £2000 to be spent in the establishment of new schools. He might .tate to the Council that not half that sum had been spent. When the Board of Edu cation, at the request of a district whicli desired to bave a school established, applied to tbe Government for the three-fourths of the necessary amount, the Government invariably cried out that they couldn't afford it, so that the Board was obliged to turn people away who came to them with one-fourth in their hands and applied for the three-fourths which the Government were authorised by the Council to give, If the Government had the balance in hand which they represented to the Land and Works account, he considered that they couldn't spend money better than in the opening up of the country and attending to the main interest of the country, which waa the agricultural interest, by doing «ll they could to improve the communication ao that producers might take their produce tb market with profit. He could not agree with the classification of the estimates that had been made. To spend co large a sum as £4500 in charitable aid in a young country was a crying disgrace. (Hear, hear.) There must be something wrong in the system which rendered it necessary that •so large a sum should be annually spent in this direction. He Bhould like very much to see the* bonus for local manufactures increased beyond a thousand pounds. (Hear, hear.) The construction of a tramway from the Selwyn to Southbiidge was a very desir able work, but in his opinion it was being taken in the wrong direction. He trusted that the Council would not proceed with the estimates until they were properly classified. If the Government refused to make any alteration, then he hoped hon. members would unanimously opp- ss votes which had po right to appear in certain departments, in order that, they might be brought forward as supplementary votes in their proper department. (Hear, hear.) Mr Birch thought that it was a matter for congratulation to the country that thu was the first time for some years past the departmental expenditure, according to what the Government asserted, waß less this year than in the preceding year. He should have liked to hear a more distinct line of policy laid down jby the Government with regard to the expenditure of the balance of the loan; he might say the small remnant of their large debt, which their children's children would have occasion to remember, and the interest <)f which he bad no doubt would trouble this province for a long time to come. The loan was for public works and immigration, whicli at that time was considered to be of almost equal importance to the country as public works. A very small portion of the loan, if any, had been spent in immigration, and Canterbury stood lowest to any province in the colony in point of wbarf accommodation. The improvement of 1 yttelton harbour was always considered a work of the first magnitude. He thought it would be better to spend money in making a permanent jetty at which ocean steamers could come alongside and load and discharge, than to expend it in improving inland communication. (" No, no.") He thought tbat something should be done for the district south of the Rangitata. He did not want to see a railway going north. (Laughter.)VHe wished to give every possible facility tb the settlers in the North to get their produce to market, but a railway irom Christchurch to Kaiapoi was not wanted at the present time. If anything was to be done, let them commence at Kaiapoi with a tramway, leaving it to private enterprise to build a railway from Kaiapoi to Christchurch, if it were found that such a thing was necessary and likely to prove remunerative/) He believed tnat if the destitute cbi-fren were to bd covered ander one

roof, the item -■ charitable aid" might bi reduced. Mr J. S. Williams said he was sorry that 'he balance-sheet was not in print, but he thought from the st itement read by the Provincial Secretary that the Council was tolerably safe in adopting the course which he originally put forward. If Mr Knight had ever sat on tie Treasury Benches, he would have known that the ordinary expenditure was never covered by ordinary revenue. The estimates of ordinary expenditure now before the House appeared to him (Mr Williams) to be very much the .ame as they had always been. He must confess that he expected a reduction under the head *' Executive " after hearing his Honor's s;eech. In that speech his Honor said that the Executive expenditure was 2 per cent, on the whole amount of expenditure. That amount seemed to be small, but he considered that it might still be less, on the authority of the Superin tendent himself. He thought it would be a very good thing if a piper laid before the General Assembly, shewing . the receipts nnd expenditure of all the provinces could be reprinted and laid on the table of the Council. It might not be a guide, but it would show hon. members tbat in Canterbury we spend a great deal more than other provinces do. The police expenditure here was £7400 a year, which was twice as large an amount as the sum spent by any province in the Nortli Island. We spend £5000 a-year in hospitals which was more than the sum spent in any of the northern provinces. It was satisfactory that the Council had so much to spend as was put down in schedule C. He was very clad to see that the Government recognised the importance of railway extension, and that they contemplated connecting all the graingrowing districts of the province with port But he wou'd suggest that it would be us well for the Government to unite their energies in one work. (Hear, hear.) The £1.-5,000 set down would carry the Southern Railway to the middle of a blank plain, and according to his Honor's plan, extended towards tlie Rakaia. as funds accrued. The estimates shewed that there was a con-iderable deficit in the ordinary revenue and that all the income of the railway, and more than all, was required, to supply tint deficit. If they were really in earnest about the Northern Railway, they must apply all the funds to it that are available. He would not demur for a moment to continuing the Southern Railway if there were funds to do it. It was very desirable to continue that railway to the Rakaia, but they could not do it at the present time. The Railway was preferable. (Hear," hear.) He believed that simultaneously they would be able to carry the tramway to Southbridge. The railway was paying a pretty creditable income. (" No, no.") At all events, the income was increasing and promised better. He thought the Government would admit that. He congratulated the Government that they had brought no proposition down to lease the railways. He trustel that the railways would be kept in the hands of the public. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say that a Board of Directors would not be better ; but it would be fatal to the interests of the province if the railways were taken over by a company, and ntxt to selling tbem, the worst thing the Government could do would be to lease them. He thought the Government was to be congratulated upon the elasticity of their railway estimates of expenditure. (Laughter ) It seemed to him that they were extravagant. He hoped that the Government's estimate of the eale of laud would be increased. There was a prospect of a good harvest and a high price for corn, and if that turned out to be so, he had no doubt that lhe estimate would be increased very considerably. (Hear, hear.) Mr A. Duncan thought that the speakers who had preceded him confined their remarks merely to the balance-sheet, and had not alluded to the statements made by tbe Provincial Fecretary in making his financial statement. He believed that the report in the Lyttelton Times was as correct as it could te, and from it he gathered that the Provincial Secretary said that when Mr Montgomery was treasurer, he overestimated the expenditure to a considerable extent. But he (Mr Duncan) denied that such had been the case. He should like the Provincial Secretary to point out lo him how the balance stated by him could have remained in hand after the September departmental expenditure had been paid, because they had heard it stated by that hon. member that £7000 a month was the amount of this expenditure. He did not mean to impute to the hon. gentleman a desire to make any statement which would mislead the House, but he must say that the estimates showed that they had not been as carefully prepared as the House would have wished to see them. His opinion was not changed on the system of keeping public accounts, because when the Government called hon. members together, they should be prepared to supply them with a balance-sheet showing the actual position of affairs. It had been stated that tlie system pursued by the Government was the same as that followed at home, but he begged to say that there was a very jjreat difference between the two cases. The Provincial Government was more in the position of a merchant, and like him, should be prepared with a correct balance-sheet. There was one other matter which he wished to say a few words upon. He referred to the Orphan Asylum. He considered that it would be better, if the Government could see its way to it, to expend a sufficient sum of money in the erection of a | central establishment, than to spend £600 this year and £800 the next in making addi- j tions to the present building. He had been told that £4000 or £5000 would be sufficient for the purpose, and he believed that it would be far cheaper in the end if the recommendations of last year's committee were acted upon by the Government. ( Hear, hear) . Mr Wtnn Williams said he was satisfied that no hon. member supposed that the Government, in bringing down their estimates,

had any intention or wish to delude either the House or the public. There might t c persons who felt positive sometimes ; everybody did so betimes, and thought that his way of doing the thing was light and everybody else's wrong. The hon. member for Heathcote (Mr Duncan) had made a remark about spen .ing the revenue in the current year.* This, he begged to tell him, could not possibly be. The Bystem of bringing down the estimates adopted by his hon. friend was the simplest that could be pursued. The hon. member opposite (Mr Montpemery) stated on Thursday ir'ght that he did not think that the balance stated by the Provincial Secretary was in the bank. Mr Montgomery: What I did say was this: — That, allowing for the outstanding liabilities which were due on the Ist October, I thought it impossible, after these liabilit es were paid, that there cou'd .. he that balance in the bank. Mr Williams : Well, I don't know, but perhaps you were not correctly reported. Mr Montgomery : What I said on that occasion was correctly reported. Mr Williams went on to refer to the Northern railway, remarking that it was impossible for any Government to construct that line for nny sum whether it was £50,000, £60,0.0, or £70,000 which could be set aside for such a purpose at the present time. If, therefore, its construction were entered upon, it would be necessary tha 1 ; the tolls should be handed over to the contractors until the balance between the vote and the amount of the contract was cleared off. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that tho Government were rot desirous of carrying out the construction of the railway to the North. He begged to contradict it, and to add that the Government had every desire and intention to commerce the work so soon as an arrangement of the nature he had intimated could be entered into. He could not understand how Mr Knight could be puzz'ed with the estimates laid on the table, for they had been very carefully prepared by Mr Marshmin and gone over by him two or three times. He trusted that the Council would agree to receive them. Mr Hawkes said that the Government were deserving of the best thanks of the Council; in the first place, for having brought down the estimates at so early a period of the session; and in the second, for the very careful way in which those estimates had been prepared. He had listened very attentively to the observations made by the hon. member for Lincoln. That hon. member had gone through the estimates item by item, and in no single instance did he make out a case. He would like to hear something more definite as to what was going to be done with the available balance in hand. He considered that the Northern line had a prior claim —(.hear, hear)— and if the present opportunity were allowed to pass, all chance of constructing the Northern railway would pass with it. (Hear, hear.) He did not think that the £30,000 already voted for this purpose should be allowed to lie idle any longer. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the tramway, lie considered that it was of equar importance to the Northern railway, and he should like to see it carried out. lie regretted that the Government had struck out of the .estimates the grants to superior schools. In his opinion, this was economy in tlie wrong direction, and he intended, therefore, to table a motion to the effect that the items he referred to should be replace.. Mr Macpherson said tliat the question whicli the Council had to consider was — in what way could the money be best spent for the interests of the whole province. He inclined to the opinion that a very necessary work, and one which should be undertak- n at the very earliest opportunity, consisted in the improvement of Lyttelton harbour. Tbe lighterage of grain cost a penny a bushel at present, and every ton of goods landed in Lyttelton was subject to a charge of four shillings. The construction of a jetty would obviate this charge, and he considered that the work should be entered upon with the least possible delay. If they spent all the money they had in railways aud tramways, nothing would be left for harbour works. The export uf grain was increasing and there was no doubt that the imports would increase. He did not advocate harbour works because he was a member for Lyttelton. He was representative for no particular district but for the province, of which Lyttelton was a portion. (Hear, hear.) Mr Montgomery said he thought the Provincial Secretary would acquit him of any intention to do anything to embarrass the Government. (Hear, hear, from Mr Jollie.) When he suggested, the other night, that a balance-sheet should be laid on the table, in order that hon. members might be able, by means of figures, to realise the position of the province, he stated that he feared the balance which was in the bank did not allow for departmental and other expenditure, and also for the interest and sinking fund which would be due on the unconverted bonds on the 31st December. 1869. When he said that he wished this balance-sheet to be laid on the table, he did so because he was afraid that without that balance-sheet they might fall into the old groove of not knowing whether the financial position of the province would be similar to what it was two or three years ago. He was quite sure that the Provincial Secretary did not intend to cast any reflections on him when he told the House that he (Mr Montgomery) had over-estimated the expenditure. (•' Hear, hear," from Mr Jollie.) Yet it did go forth to tbe public, through the uewspaper press, that he had over-estimated the expenditure on loans, in the first place, to the extent of some £10,000 or £11,000 at the end of the year ; also that there was a very considerable over-estimate in the matter of £9000 that had been taken ! to meet sinking fund and interest on the loans due before the 31st of March. There was no doubt that a great amount of trouble was given to a person who had not the financial documents of the Government to refer to, but he begged to say, unhesitatingly, that the large saving which his hon. friend thought

there had been made on the interest and sinking fund alone, had not been made. He said that unhesitatingly. He was quite sure that the Provincial Secretary thought it had been made, or he would not have said it, but he (Mr Montgomery) was quite sure that the suving had not been effected. That there was a large balance in bank there was no doubt, but if the outstanding liabilities on the Ist October were paid, that balance would be very considerably lessened. He never said tliat he wanted the hon. member to bring down thirteen months' estimates. He said he thought it advisable, before the Council proceeded to vote the balance in hand, that they should ascertain, as any merchant or firm would do, what were their liabilities, so that they would not commence works north and south, and find at the end of the year that they had entered on works which they could not carry -through. He asked for the balance sheet, simply in order that hon. members- might know what they were doing before they voted the money. He would simply reiterate that he felt the savings stated by the Provincial Secretary had not been made on the interest and sinking fund to anything like the extent of what that hon. gentleman stated. With regard to the balance that was to be appropriated, he might say at once that his views seemed to be that a sufficiently large sum should be expended in the construction of the Northern Railway, and also that the £5000 put down should be voted for the tramway. He hoped that the Council would not vote any money now for continuing the Southern Bailway. Let that matter be left until the Government might see in what way they could make arrangements for the construction of the Northern line. The just claims of that portion of tlie proviuce south of the Bangitata should be satisfied. That question would come on next evening, and he would therefore say nothing more about it on this occasion. With regard to immigration, he hoped the Council would hesitate before it voted such a large amount of its revenue as it was asked to do, for such a course might cripple that great work, the Northern Railway. He hoped that the Council would take care that the promises given for the construction of that great work would be adhered to. Perhaps, as an hon. member had observed, if this opportunity were allowed to pass, they should never have a chance of redeeming those promises. He was quite convinced that the Government had the interest of the country at heart, and he would be glad to help them in cirrying the estimates through. (Hear, hear.) After some further discussion, in the course of which Mr Brown proposed that the debate bs adjourned — negatived on the voices, the first item was put and agreed to. Progress was reported, with leave to sit again.