THE WEBB CASE.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume IV, Issue 1011, 9 May 1917, Page 7

THE WEBB CASE.

CHARGES OF SEDITION.

ACTING-PRIME MINISTER GIVES EVIDENCE.

CASE FURTHER ADJOURNED

The charges against Patrick Charles Webb, M.P., of having made seditious utterances on the West Coast, were heard before Mr T. A. B. Bailey, S.M., in the Magistrate's Court t'wis morning. Mr S. (i. Raymond, K.C., prosecuted on behalf of the Crown, and accused conducted his own case. The charges were:— That on February 22 at Taylorville he did publish the following seditious language: "Now that the Government are taking men by force (meaning thereby administering the provisions of the Military Service Act, 15J16, relative to compulsory military service) I say it is up to the men and women to rise and say to the Government 'You will not take one-man.' If we allow this Government to take men by force we are guilty ourselves of the crime committed by the Government," which utterance was seditious in that the publication thereof had a tendency to interfere with the effective conduct of the military preparations of his Majesty and to encourage opposition to the enforcement of the laws in force in New Zealand relative to compulsory military service and to interfere with the proper and effective administration of those laws.

That on April 19 at Greymouth! he published the following sedi- j tious utterance: "The miners; (meaning thereby certain coalminers then engaged in a strike) are fighting against conscription, and would go to gaol rather than shirk what they feel to be their duty to the country. That is their sentiment at the present time. They are not fighting for themselves alone. They are fighting for thousands of people who are not able to fight for themselves (meaning thereby the men subject to compulsory military service under the Military Service Act, 1916), and when the true history of the part played by the miners during this great struggle is written, I am certain of this: that the miner will stand out in letters of gold as compared with any other section of the community." Before the doors of the court were opened a large crowd had congregated outside. They were refused admission till 10.30, when they fiow■ed in in a solid stream, filling the court until further admissions had to be refused. Applause broke out ! when Webb entered the dock. I Mr Raymond said that he underI vtnrwl fliof qpr>i.c<ul hml cnlwpnnn/l Sir

! stood mat accused Had subpoenaed Mr ! James Allen, the Acting-Prime Minister, who had left Wellington last evening. Sir James Allen could not arrive in Lyttelton for some time. It would be convenient, so as not to make a break in the middle of the case, if it were adjourned till later in the day. Accused: Last week when I was here before your Worship I expressed my feelings with regard to the little opportunity that was afforded me of getting in touch with my witnesses and preparing my case. You were good enough then to remand my case for a week. On the day I went to Lyttelton I asked some of the police authorities to communicate with Greymouth and get me copies of the paper which contained my speech. So far I have not re-! ceived them. Yesterday morning an urgent letter was sent to me advising me of a number of witnesses that I intended to subpoena. That letter has not yet reached me. I am left in this position: I have been groping about in the dark. I have been in my cell for 18 hours out of the 24, and I am going to ask your Worship for a further remand for another week, as I find it quite impossible to get in touch with my witnesses. The Magistrate: Were not the delegates to the Miners' Conference whom you wanted to call due to ar-

rive here last night? Accused: Yes, some of (hem. The others I cannot get in touch with. If I write a letter according to the gaol regulations it must go out in certain hours, otherwise it cannot go through the hands of the gaoler. I must get a letter out within these hours, and the same thing applies to letters coming in. By the time one writes and gets a reply it is sometimes a matter of a few days. 1 am here with only about half my witnesses-. "1 feel," he continued, "that the circumstances warrant the whole Irulh being brought under your Worship's notice. I must respectfully ask that this case be adjourned for another week in order to give me the opportunity I am entitled to to bring my evidence before the Court." Mr Raymond said he had received the newspapers from Greymouth that accused mentioned, and one of these would be handed at once to the accused. So far as Sir James Allen was concerned he had received a i telegram that the Acting-Prime Min- | ister had been subpoenaed yesterday, and had left by the Pateena. The position of the Acting-Prime Minis-

ler was this: he had come down at I the instance of the accused. He was' | engaged in affairs of the utmost importance, and he would be within j his rights if he had simply staled and! I certified that affairs of State had de- i tained him in Wellington. Though! no doubt great demands were made! on Sir James Allen's time he had not i availed himself of that right, but itj would be obviously impossible to get i him down a second time. There, had been no attempt made to warn j him in time to prevent his coming.

Mr naymonti aimed maine understood that a number of delegates to the Miners' Federation came over from the West Coast last night. So far as the adjournment for other reasons was concerned, he had not the slightest objection to raise, and subject to what he had said of the attendance of the Minister a second time being impracticable and impossible, he had very little to say to the

other part. Accused: On the last sitting day! your Worship intimated that if it! were necessary I could still ask for a second remand. The Magistrate: 1 said that. Onlyj the difficulty is the position of the] Acting-Prime Minister. Accused: If the Acting-Prime Minister is not able to be down here next week then it will be my! trouble. I hope be will be able to !

attend. I regret very much that I am not able to go on with the case to-day. I think the seriousness of the ease warrants the best possible preparation. I will have to ask for the adjournment and risk whether the Acting-Prime Minister can attend here on this day week. The Magistrate: If he cannot attend then it would be hardly fair to bring him down i^ain. Mr Raymond said that an adjournment would be unsuitable to him, as he would be in the middle of the

I Supreme Court criminal sittings. He would not be in a position to go on with the case then. He suggested that the case stand over till 2 o'clock, when the position could be considered. He would have an opportunity of seeing Mr Allen before then and of considering the whole j suggestion. He had no wish, nor j would his Worship tolerate it if he i had, to press on the charge, and not jgive every reasonable opportunity to , the accused to prepare his defence. The accused: I might further point •out that Sir James Allen on this occasion happens to be my witness, j and I think I should be more con- • cerned in consulting him than is Mr 1 Raymond.

The Magistrate: You will have an opportunity. The accused: I want again to state | that I have not yet got into touch | with some of my witnesses. The 'newspapers have not yet reached my hands. Is it fair to ask me to-* come along here with a half preipared case? . The Magistrate: No, Ido not ask you to come here with a half-pre-pared case. I will adjourn the case i till 2 o'clock and you will have an I opportunity of seeing Sir James Allien in the meantime and of consider- • ing the case. We will have an opiportunity of seeing to what day we jean grant an adjournment. I At this stage Sir James Allen arj rived in court and it was then dei cided to adjourn the case till 12 I o'clock.

ADJOURNMENT APPLICATION RENEWED. When the case was called on again at 12 o'clock, Mr Raymond said he understood that the accused wished to renew his application for a remand. Accused: Yes, your Worship, I wish to renew my application. The Magistrate: For a remand for ja week? ' Accused: Yes, for a week. Ido not know whether it is worth while i mentioning the question of bail. I | have had quite a lot 6f difficulty in getting this case worked up. Mr Raymond: I oppose bail, as I wish to make it quite clear that Sir James Allen has come down here today to give evidence and cannot come down again. The Magistrate (to accused): You understand that? Accused: I quite understand that your Worship. As far as I am personally concerned I would like tc put certain questions to him, if that would meet with your approval. The Magistrate: You mean for him to give evidence? Accused: Yes.

Mr Raymond: I wish to afford every reasonable opportunity to the accused. ... I do not oppose the application to allow Sir James Allen's evidence to be taken. Accused asked and was granted permission to leave the dock and sit at the table. SIR JAMES ALLEN'S EVIDENCE, Sir James Allen was sworn. Accused: Do you remember April 8 (last Easter Monday) meeting me in your Cabinet office, and spending some three or four hours discussing the coal strike situation?

Sir James: 1 cannot remember ! April 8. I remember the disc assion. Accused: Did I, on that occasion, ask you whether it was possible to meet the miners' request, and either repeal the Conscription Act, take a referendum, or have a general election in order that the people might give their mandate?—\es, I believe you did, and 1 told you the Government would not repeal the Act, would not take a referendum, and would not call Parliament together earlier than usual. Air Raymond: I wish to state at this moment that the information laid against the accused is an information of uttering certain words on April 19 and the question before the Court is whether these words were uttered and secondly whether they were seditious. I think it is the desire of the present witness to give all fair answers to questions put to him, but the examination should

•be confined to relevant matters. Accused: I would like to point.out that Sir James is at liberty to refuse j to answer any question I put to him lif he considers it unfair. This evijdence has a very important bearing j on what I am alleged to have uttered lin Greymoufh. I nope Mr Raymond will not insist that this evidence {should not go before you. Accused (to Sir James): Did yon

I send me a telegram from Springfield J on your way to the West Coast, on, I ! think, the following Friday?— Yes, | saying we were coming over to the i West Coast and asking you if you could go, 1 think it was. Accused: I think I informed you !by telegram that I would meet you jat Greymouth on Saturday night?— Yes, I believe so. I then informed you that I missed (the train and would proceed to Greymouth and would be pleased to meet j you on Tuesday night?— Yes.

On Sunday morning did you telephone to the Exchange here asking {for my whereabouts? Yes, I think jso. The Magistrate: The Christchurcb I Exchange? • Accused: Yes. J Accused (to the witness): You also i conveyed to Christchurch through 'phone to me that you would be in |my constituency on Tuesday, and I would be pleased to meet me there in connection with the whole matter? |-—Yes, that is so.

On Wednesday, the IHIh, did I (journey along with you, and the Hon, 'Mr Mac Donald (Minister of Mines) to Rewanui in the afternoon?— Yes. On returning you proceeded straight to Greymodth?—Yes. You returned to Kunanga about 7 p.m.?— That evening, anyway. I After the meeting you remember adjourning to Mr Hunter's place (the town clerk) to take a cup of tea?— I do. | Do you remember my begging to ibe excused on the ground that 1 i wanted to have a few words with I the strike committee?— Yes; you said von would like to en ami tn> th«

committee. You Lad to wait for me a little (time—l kept you waiting in the motor in the cold?— Yes. 1 think w« had to gather you up. We hatf waited too long for you. IConlinntd on next naraj

I went to town with you did I Jioi?—Yes. Did I, on the way, inform you that I had made certain suggestions to the miners for them to waive the question of conscription in order that a settlement might be arrived at?— You told us you had advised the miners to waive the question of conscription and seek another battle ground so that a settlement might he arrived at. On Thursday, the 19th, I think it was, did I inform you at breakfast that a delegation had met me about 12.15 a.m., consisting of the delegates from the strike committee? The Magistrate: You mean just after midnight? The accused: Yes. The Magistrate: It is really not 12.15 a.m. People call it so. Accused: I am one of the people. Perhaps that is why. Accused (to Sir James Allen): I think at the breakfast table I informed you that the committee had Agreed to present my suggestions to the rest of the strike committee in the Westport district, and that a deputation motored from Westport and travelled all night, doing 100 miles, to meet the rest of the strike committee before the miners held their meeting on that day?— You told me some delegates had motored there to meet the other delegates before the Vote was taken, I think. Accused: Yes, that is so. (To the Magistrate): It was a vote taken al the request of the Acting-Prime Minister and Mr Mac Donald that the men should resume work and give up the "go slow" policy. Sir James Allen: The first vole was taken on the conscription issue. Accused: Yes, that is so, but the Second vote now under discussion was taken as to whether the men would accept your proposals and resume work. Sir James Allen: The second vote was taken on the abandonment of the conscription issue, giving up the "go slow" policy, and going back to work and so on. Accused: At the midday meal on the 10th I think I informed you I had received word that most of the unions had decided by very large majorities to continue the strike?— You did tell me that as far as you Could hear the vote was against resuming work. That was the first Vote. Accused: Yes. Again, at about 7 O'clock on the day of the 19th did I inform you that I had received further word that the general joint strike committee had agreed to my suggestion to waive the conscription Question, and would discuss the advisability of a conference being held next day to advise the men to waive it also?—I think you told me they would meet in Reefton to discuss it, and the answer would come from them there. Did I ask you if, in the event of the miners waiving the question of Conscription, you would be in a position to proceed to Reefton to meet them there?— Yes, and I told you it would be very inconvenient to meet them there. It would be better for us to wait in Greymouth, as we wanted to catch the train next morning. Now, Sir James, did you and Mr Mac Donald leave the matter of arranging the conference in my hands —that is, in the event of the strike committee waiving the question of conscription—the conference that had to take place there to discuss other matters, and that took place ultimately in Greymouth?—l cannot say we left it in your hands. It was a matter of common arrangement. You took a great part in it. We did not take any part in it, except we were told it was to take place in Reefton, and we were asked to remain another day on the Coast and hear the result. Accused: Was it not agreed, in the event of their agreeing to waive the conscription issue, that I should get into communication with you, and tell you the result?— Yes. Did not Mr Mac Donald's private secretary teli you I had communicated with him by 'phone?— There was a message, saying that they had not come to a conclusion. At about 4.15 p.m. I again telephoned, and said that the miners had agreed to waive the coi-.scription question, and asked that arrangements be made to hold the conference that night, at 9 o'clock, in the Albion Hotel? —Yes, that is right. On Wednesday, Sir James I intimated to you coming back in the car that I had used all my influence to persuade the executive of the Strike Committee to waive the question of conscription?— That is from Runanga to Greymouth? The Magistrate: On Wednesday? Accused: Yes, on the 18th. Sir James (to accused): You did tell me you had been in touch with the union and that you had discussed with them, and I think tried to persuade them to shift the battleground from conscription to something else. Later in the day I told you they had decided to waive the conscription question?—-Yes. They had agreed to discuss it. Accused: No, that would rest with the conference to be held in Reefton on the Friday. On the Thursday night about 8.30 I went along with you and addressed a few words in connection with a presentation of medals?— Yes. Sir James, did my conduct in any way lead you to believe that I had any desire or intention to continue the strike about the conscription issue?—l think you were persuaded, like a good many others, tint the conscription issue was not a good one, and if was better to select some » ether battle-ground. Do you think my influence was used in the direction of shifting the battle-ground from conscription?— Yes as far as I could judge, you hied to induce the miners to shift the contest from conscription. Accused (to the Magistrate): Those are all the questions I wish to ask the Acting-Prime Minister. There will be other evidence when the case is called on again. Mr Raymond pointed out that all Ihe evidence that had been given was not legally relevant to the particular charge. With regard to Ihe adjournment he would be engaged in Ihe Supreme Court on Wednesday next. The following Saturday was the earliest day he could lake (he case. He suggested that perhaps it should stand over till Wednesday week. The Magistrate: I think it is ihe best I can do for you Mr Weld). If will have to be a remand till next Wednesday, and then a further remand till ihe following Wednesday. Accused: In regard to this question of bail, notwithstanding Mr Raymond's objection your Worship has power to grant it. I do not think it is your desire, sir, to keep a man in gaol till he is proved guilty. There is not the slightest chance of

my taking a trip to Mars or any other planet. The Magistrate: No, I cannot grant the application for bail. Accused: It places me in an awkward position, for some of my witnesses will be returning from Wellington in about a week. Mr Raymond: ! could take the case next Saturday, or the Saturday following, or on Wednesday week. Accused: 1 would prefer Saturday week.

The dale for the further hearing was therefore fixed for Saturday week.