THE WEEK IN PARLIAMENT.

Otago Witness, Issue 3993, 23 September 1930, Page 21

THE WEEK IN PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. WELLINGTON, September 17. The Council met at. 2.30 p.m. BILLS PASSED. The Kirkpatrick Masonic Institute Empowering Bill was read a third time and passed. The Dunedin Waterworks Extension Bill, the Dunedin District Drainage and Amendment Bill, and the Waiapu County Council Empowering Bill were put through their final stages and passed. The Council rose at 2.40 p.m. WELLINGTON, September IS. . The Council met at 2.30 p.m. UNEMPLOYMENT BILL. The Unemployment Bill was reported from the Labour Bills Committee with put amendment. The Acting Leader of th-e Council (Mr R. Masters) asked that the second reading stage of the Bill should be proceeded with immediately, fiut objection was raised to this course, and the second reading stage was deferred until Tuesday. At 2.35 p.m. the Council adjourned pntil Tuesday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES —WELLINGTON, September 16. The House met at 2.30 p.m. PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH PROPERTY BILL. The Presbyterian Church Property Amendment (Private) Bill was read a third time and passed. LONDON AND NEW ZEALAND BANK BILL. Moving the second reading of the London and New Zealand Bank, Ltd., Amendment Bill, Mr A. M. Samuel (Thames) said this private measure was intended to extend the time during which the £1,000,000 capital for the venture had to be raised. Owing to abnormal conditions the money had not fceen raised within the time specified in the original Act, but it was hoped the economic depression in Great Britain would be sufficiently relieved to enable the amount to be provided in the near future. He thought the House would Agree that the underwriters had been wise to keep off the London market at fl. time when conditions were difficult, find they were now asking for an extension of time by two years. They were Confident that, as soon as the financial Conditions at Home approached anything like normal, the success of the bank would be assured. The Bill was read a second time. UNEMPLOYED SEAMEN. Mr C. L. Carr (Timaru) asked the Minister of Marine (Mr J. B. Donald) whether he was aware that the Union Steam Ship Company was being compelled through lack of trade to tie up many of its cargo vessels, entailing the putting off of New Zealand seamen, firemen, and greasers, and that overseas vessels, in some cases manned by foreign crews, were being chartered to replace them at lower rates of pay. Mr Carr further asked whether the Minister would take the necessary steps tc ensure the employment for New Zealand seamen by putting two New Zealand lines of shipping on to the Nauru and Ocean Island run, and one on for the carriage of Australian hardwoods. He said it was stated officially that about 950 members of the 'New Zealand Firemen and Seamen’s Union were at present unemployed.

Mr Donald said there were 11 steamers laid up in New Zealand. Eight colliers were rendered idle through the slackness of the coal trade and the other three were tied up owing to the slackness of trade generally. The department was unable to do anything at the moment. The carriage of phosphates from Nauru and Ocean Islands was controlled by the Australian Government; consequently it was impossible to do anything in tliat direction. No New Zealand, vessels were engaged in the Australian hardwoods trade, and, unfortunately, it would not be possible to send vessels over there. The department would see if it could do anything in the direction of finding work for the unemployed seamen and firemen.

TUBERCULOSIS IN MILK. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr A. J. Murdoch), in reply to Mr W. J. Broadfoot (Waitomo), said the Hisrh Commissioner in London was in touch with the work that was being under- • taken by the Swiss expert, M. Spahlinger, relating to the elimination of tuberculosis in milk. If there were any developments of material interest they would immediately be notified. Experiments were being conducted locally bearing on a system of immunisation, but so far no results were available. THE ESTIMATES. The House went into Committee of Supply to deal with the Estimates. While the vote of £9992 for the Electoral Department was under consideration the Minister (Mr H. Atmore), replying to questions, said it was intended to go on with the Census Postponement Bill. There" would be no alteration in the electoral boundaries before the next

general election. He stated it was not possible for half-castes to vote in both Maori and ordinary electorates. They could vote in only one.—The estimate was passed. The vote of £3,188,186 for the Education Department was next considered. Several members congratulated the Minister on the improvements and the erection of new buildings throughout the Dominion.

The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr H. E. Holland) remarked that the vo'-e this year was £23,000 less than last year. He asked the Minister to give the House an assurance that the expenditure on education was not to be cut down. He considered that this department, in common with the Department of Health and one or two others, was too important to be subjected to economies. The estimate was passed. The vote of £180,092 for the Marine Department was submitted. Mr P. Fraser (Wellington Central) drew attention to the fact that a wireless set had been fitted in one of the lifeboats of the ill-fated Tahiti. In the past the department had reported that it would be impossible to insist on all vessels being wirelessly equipped because science had not so far progressed that it would be reasonable to make such regulations. At present only vessels carrying as many as ~o had to carry wireless, but he believed the time h d now come when the Government should insist -n equipment being provided on every vessel sailing out of and into New Zealand ports. This view was supported by Mr J. Howard (Christchurch South). A complaint against the action of unauthorised persons in removing shingle from beaches was made by Mr R. A. Wright (Wellington Suburbs), who said at ln the Wellington district damage had been caused as a result of marine erosion, following the removal of large quantities of shingle. He urged that the department should exercise some control in the matter.

Mr J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn) asked whether New Zealand was being represented at the Geneva Conference. Dealing with the whaling industry, Mr H. T. Armstrong (Christchurch East) piotested against what he described as a breach of faith by the department in failing to amend the legislation as promised to the harbours associations. He asserted that this legislation was urgently required.

The Minister of Marine (Mr J. B. Donald) said he understood New Zealand was far ahead of any other mntry so far as the wireless equipment of vessels was concerned. However, he agreed that the subject was an important one and he would consider the point raised by Mr Fraser.

Mr Samuel: Don’t you think every big vessel should have a power-driven ’ifeboat as well?

Mr Donald said the idea seemed to be a good one and would be given consideration.

Replying to Mr Wright, the Minister said he agreed that the removal of shingle was in some cases becoming a serious matter and would have to be investigated. Referring to Mr Fletcher’s question about the whalin industry, he said an agreement had been drawn up d Geneva and would be submitted for signing by all the countries interested. Whaling in future would, be governed by this agreement. Replying to Mr Armstrong, Mr Donald said that as it had been proposed that the present session should not be a long one it had not been decided „o bring down new harbour legislation this year, but he promised that it would be brought down early next session.

Mr T. Makitanara (Southern Maori) read a section from the Treaty of Waitangi which, he said,- gave the Maoris the right to enjoy their own fishes. He said that two Maoris h recently been fined at Wanganui for taking trout, and he declared that a gigantic petition signed by 34,000 Maoris would be presented to the House next year with reference to the subject.

The vote was passed. The estimate of £43,346 was the Westport Harbour account was approved. The sum -of £8435 for the Public Ser vice Superannuation Fund account was submitted.

Mr C. H. Chapman (Wellington North) requested that the employees formerly engaged as casuals who had been granted permanent appointments should be permitted to make back pay ments and thereby become entitled to the benefits of the fund.

Mr J. O’Brien (Westland) asked that a number of nurses and attendants at mental hospitals who had not in the past contributed to the fund but were willing to make all the necessary pay 5 ments should be admitted to the fund.

Mr Donald said this would require legislation. He would be pleased to recommend that these people should be admitted if the necessary legislation were passed by the House. Replying to Mr Chapman, he said the board would con sider on their merits such cases as had been mentioned. The vote was passed.

The estimate of £220,000 for the Printing and Stationery Department was considered next. The vote was passed. When the estimate of £56,871 for the Department of Labour was under consideration Mr R. M‘Keen (Wellington South) moved that the sum be reduce! £lO as a protest against the action of the Government in bringing down the estimate before the report of the department had been discussed. He said that members were apparently quickly losing their privileges, as several estimates had

been passed before departmental reports had been discussed. Progress was reported and the House rose at midnight.

WELLINGTON, September 17. The House met at 2.30 p.m. THIRD READING.

■ The Managers of St. Paul’s Presbyterian Congregation (Oamaru) Bill was read a third time, and passed. REPLIES TO QUESTIONS.

In reply to questions asked by Mr H. E. Holland, the Acting Prime Minister (Mr E. A. Ransom) said the policy of the Government in the matter of the number of men employed in the Public Works and Railways Departments had not been altered, and there was no present intention to make reductions of staff in them. It must, however, be recognised that it was impossible for the Government to give an undertaking that no reductions would take place under any condition tliat might arise, that being entirely dependent on the available funds and the economic value of the work to be carried out. With regard to the present coal situation, Mr Ransom said it was recognised that the new conditions created in Australia necessitated action for the protection of the New Zealand coal producing industry. This question, however, was involved in the reciprocal tariff agreement now current between this Dominion and Australia, no departure from which could be made without six months’ notice being given. The question would shortly be considered by Cabinet with a view to deciding whether such notice should be given.

A Ministerial statement with reference to the suggestion to introduce daylight saving in Canterbury in order to conserve the electric power supply was made by the Minister of Public Works , (Mr W. B. Taverner), who said that when a shortage of power occurred in the Auckland area in the month of June he submitted proposals to Cabinet recommending the immediate introduction of daylight saving time, and indicated the saving of power that could be made. The proposal, however, was not favoured by Cabinet on the grounds that it would have been necessary to make it apply to the ■whole of the North Island, whereas the area affected was relatively small. In regard to Mr D. G. Sullivan’s suggestion, the Minister pointed out that with the lengthening of the days as the season advanced the benefit to be derived was consequently diminishing, and he had been advised that a saving of only 1000 kilowatts in the present load was all that could be looked for in the city of Christchurch, and it was quite possible this saving in a peak load would only result in an increased consumption of units and consequently of water at some other hours of the day. Further, it was considered inconvenient to apply the measure over the whole of the South Island when in the ordinary course of events summer-time would operate from October 12, and would then of course be uniform over the whole of the Dominion. In regard to the shortage of power in Christchurch city he said investigations were proceeding, and he hoped it would be possible to increase the power available in some measure at an early date. He gave the House a definite assurance that the department would take steps to increase the generation of power to a satisfactorv limit next winter. MEAT CONTROL BILL. The debate w’as resumed on the presentation of the report of the Agricultural and Pastoral Industries Committee on the Meat Export Control Amendment Bill. Mr H. G. Dickie (Patea) maintained that the cost of the administration of the Meat Board in London was excessive and could be reduced. The board had done little or nothing to assist the pro ducers in the fight against the big combines at Home.

Mr F. Waite (Clutha) said the House should give very careful consideration to the subject before it proceeded to alter the system of election to the board. Mr W. L. Martin (Raglan) said the Bill sought to eliminate the trade and Government representatives from the board, and he hoped the House would give serious consideration to the proposals contained in thb measure.

Mr C. E. Macmillan (Tauranga) said he did not think the method of electing the board should be altered. Mr J. Bitchener (Waitaki) stated that he had never heard one producer in his district express any wish for a change in the system of election. He thought there should be a vote of those interested before any change was made. Mr T. D. Burnett (Temuka) expressed the opinion that there’ was no necessity for a change. There was ample protection under the present Act against the operations of trusts and combines. Mr W. J. Polson (Stratford) said there was a strong demand from a certain section of the farming community at all events for a change to a democratic method of election. The Farmers’ Union had definitely expressed itself in favour of a change in the method of electing the board. Mr T. W. M'Donald (Wairarapa) considered that if the Bill were passed it would go a long way towards making the board the success it should be.

Replying to the debate, Mr F. Lye (Waikato), chairman of the committee, said he did not think any reasonable objection could .be taken to the method of election proposed in the measure. The Bill was set down for committal next sitting day.

IMPORT DUTIES ON STOCK FOOpS. The Agricultural and Pastoral Industries .and Stock Committee recommended to the Government for favourable consideration a petition praying for the removal of import duties on cereal and vegetable stock foods.

A number of members expressed approval of the report of the committee on the ground that the recommendation if adopted would reduce the cost of production, while others contended it would have a detrimental effect on the New Zealand wheat industry and would increase unemployment. Mr D. Jones (Mid-Canterburyj moved an amendment that the report be referred back to the committee for further consideration. He contended that there was already an abundance of food on the free list for pig breeders in New Zealand.

The amendment was seconded by Mr C. L. Carr (Timaru), who said he was opposed to importing anything into this country that could be produced here at a reasonable price.

Mr G. C. Black (Motueka) supported the recommendation of the committee. He claimed that there was every reason to anticipate there would be a good market at Home for the products of the New Zealand pig and poultry industries, and he believed their development would be of great value to the Dominion. Mr H. E. Holland said that unless

some other provision were made for the wheat industry in New Zealand it would be seriously affected by the loss of protection. If the duties were removed they should be substituted by a bounty. It was essential in the interests of the country that such an important industry should not be endangered. NURSES AND MIDWIVES REGISTRATION. The interrupted debate on the motion to commit the Nurses and Midwives Registration Amendment Bill was resumed. Mr C. L. Carr (Timaru) urged that before the Bill was passed the House should be given adequate assurance that reciprocal arrangements with the Nurs"ing Council of England and Wales would not be affected. Mr G. R. Sykes (Masterton) said that the Nursing Council of England and Wales would not be affected. There seemed to be some confusion with regard to a cablegram from England in reply to a query concerning the effect of the legislation on the reciprocal arrangements. The four main hospitals in New Zealand which would come within the scope of the Bill would in England be classed as voluntary hospitals, and such institutions there were recognised as training schools for nurses. Hospitals classified as private institutions in Britain were those conducted purely for profit, and it was these hospitals which were not recognised as training schools. He contended there was ample evidence that reciprocal arrangements would not be prejudiced. Mr W. E. Barnard (Napier) said that the more one considered the objections raised by the Trained Nurses’ Association the more one became convinced that the reason was their anxiety over reciprocity. This could be readily understood because it was already difficult for all nurses trained in this country to find employment in New Zealand. He intended to support the Bilk He looked to the Minister to reassure the House that the reciprocal arrangements would be safeguarded.

Mr K. S. Williams (Bay of Plenty) asked the Minister to assure the House that the high standard of efficiency in the nursing profession would not suffer in any way in consequence of the Bill. He thought the Minister should tell the House exactly what correspondence had passed between his department and England on the subject of reciprocity. Mr W. Lee Martin (Raglan) also expressed the opinion that the Minister might have given the House more explicit information on the subject. The debate was continued by a number of members.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr J. G. Coates) stated that the efficiency of New Zealand trained nurses was the highest in the world. There should be every precaution taken to avoid sacrificing this position. The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr H. E. Holland) referred to the quality of the training in institutions such as the Lewisham Hospital. There should be no danger of the standard being lowered.

Other members emphasised the need for assurances that the standard of efficiency would not be lowered and that the reciprocal arrangements would not be endangered. Mr R. A. Wright (Wellington Suburbs) urged that there should be some definition of the.term “inadequate fee.” There should be a maximum sum fixed.

Replying to the debate, Mr Stallworthy said that nurses, on qualifying, would still be given a State certificate, and that would ensure the maintenance of their efficiency and status, and would also have a bearing on the reciprocal arrangements with the United Kingdom He contended that it was unreasonable to suggest that the Nursing Council of England and Wales would depart from its attitude in the past. He had written to the council in February last, and all the correspondence on the subject had been submitted to the Health Committee when the Bill was being considered. The reply had stated that private hospitals run on a commercialised, profit-making basis could not be recognised as training schools, and in the event of New Zealand recognising such training schools the reciprocal arrangement would have to be

reconsidered and modified. He extended, that the element of dissatisfaction with the reply had been the outcome of a confusion of terms. He was quite satisfied that voluntary hospitals would be recognised as training schools by the Nursing Council of England and Wales, because similar institutions were recognised in England. The whole confusion of terms had been the result of the different use of the name “ private hospital ” in the two countries. The motion to commit the Bill was adopted on a division by 56 to 14, anil the House rose at midnight. 1

WELLINGTON, September 18. The House met at 2.30 p.m. DOG REGISTRATION.

Mr C. 11. Linklater (Manawatu) asked the Minister of Internal Affairs (Mr P. A. de la Perrelle) whether the Government would consider increasing dog registration on certain classes of dogs. He said that Alsatian dogs were increasing in number, and their depredations among sheep were causing concern to farmers. It was felt that if the registration fees were increased the number of these dogs would decrease. Mr de la Perrelle said that so far there had been no opportunity to amend the Act, and it was not proposed to make any alteration this session. He would make a note of the question for future consideration. “A RIDICULOUS ANOMALY.” Mr J. T. Hogau (Rangitikei) asked the Minister of Agriculture (Mr A, J. Murdoch) if he were aware that the lonic was loading dairy produce for the Old Country at Wanganui to-day, and that while 1525 boxes of butter and 860 crates of cheese were being offered for shipment the shipping company conerned was refusing to lift 164 boxes of butter and 60 crates of cheese from certain dairy companies because, it was stated, of being precluded from doing so by an agreement between the Dairy Control Board and the Overseas Shiping Committee, and that the butter and cheese refused by the company at Wainganui must be shipped to Wellington by coastal boat at the cost of the dairy companies to be loaded on to an overseas boat, probably the lonic. He asked whether the Minister approved of the drastic centralisation policy of the Dairy Control Board, and did he think it wise to allow this board power to destroy smaller ports which had cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, and to penalise many dairy companies to the extent of thousands of pounds for the sake of a paltry reduction in freights between New Zealand and the Old Country.

Mr Murdoch said that the question was really a matter more for the Dairy Board than for the Minister. The board was set up by Parliament, and had power to effect such an agreement, and therefore the matter did not come within the scope of the Minister. He said he had discussed the matter with the chairman of • the board, and the chairman had stated that it was not the board which was responsible but the shipping company which insisted on the conditions of the contract, one of which was that Wanganui should not be a port of loading. It was an anomalous position, seeing that the ship was in the roadstead and had accepted meat and a certain quantity of butter, and at the same time had refused to accept the balance of the butter. Mr Murdoch said he intended to have an interview with a representative of the shipping company to see if L this ridiculous anomaly could be rectified. CLOSER SETTLEMENT.

The Acting Prime Minister (Mr E. A. Ransom) moved that 17 areas of land varying in size from 2770 acres to 20 perches be withdrawn from the permanent State forests.

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr J. G. Coates) said that Mr Ransom Appeared to have established a record of withdrawals from State and provisional State forests. He asked whether this was being done because the land was more suitable for closer settlement than for forestry. ' '

The Minister of Public Works (Mr W. B. Taverner) : A lot of it should never have been included in the State forests. Mr Coates asked whether the Government was satisfied that all this land was suitable for closer settlement.

Mr P. Fraser (Wellington Central) remarked that there had been serious mistakes in the past. Laud had been leased to forest companies that would have been more suitable for settlement, while on the other hand there had been attempts to place settlers on land that was only suitable for forestry. Mr Taverner said that most of the areas it was proposed to withdraw were small and of no use for afforestation, and in most cases they were quite well adapted for settlement. It was the policy of the Government that where land could produce more if used for carrying sheep or stock it should be taken from the forestry reserves and held for settlement. After further discussion Mr Ransom, in reply, said the object underlying the withdrawals was to promote settlement. It was also intended to relieve property owners of the menace of adjoining land that had gone back and to improve their boundaries.

The motion was adopted. RAILWAYS STATEMENT.

The debate on the Railways statement was initiated by the Minister of Railways (Mr W. A. Veitch), who said he felt sure members would realise that the duty devolving upon the Railway administration at the present time presented many

difficulties, although the problem was by no means hopeless. The financial records of the department' up to the end of the last financial year were such as to cause responsible men to view the situation carefully and seriously in order to bring about more satisfactory results. No doubt, it would be recognised that the Railways Department, apart from its own finances and the effect of them, was a great national service of value to the people of New Zealand and reaching far beyond the mere figures relating to its finance. It would be acknowledged that if it should prove that the railway figures could not be balanced and that part of the cost of maintaining the Railways Department must be placed on the shoulders of the taxpayers it would still be desirable to give the best service to the people. The Minister stated that he had had a

pleasing experience in connection with the proposal to close a number ~>f branch lines. The people in the districts affected had set up vigilance committees, and today the Government was in the happy position of being able to keep number of the lines going owing to the decision of the people to bring their business back to the railways. This would almost entirely, if not entirely, eliminate loss on the operation of these lines. Mr Veitch said he was sorry it had not been possible to adopt transport legislation that would enable the railways to run ii coordination with other forms of transport on rational lines. He hoped that in the

very near future it would be possible to eliminate, the heavy cost of wasteful competition. He believed the New Zealand railway service had a great future before it. It was still playing an important part in the development of the country, and would play a more important part in the future. However, unless we could get such transport legislation as would enable the removal of waste through lack of co-ordiuation the time ■would come when we would fail to compete with road transport. It would then not be a question of dismissing a number of men, but of dismissing hundreds of men annually. It was essential to begin as early as possible to improve and strengthen the finances of the department, and in this co-operation of the staff was required. He felt confident that the men would stand behind him in facing the problem he had to. solve. He greatly regretted that it had been necessary to dispense with the services of some men, but he felt sure they would realise it was by no means his wish to do so, and there was nothing he would like more than to be able to replace them. Continuing, the Minister said that when the virility of the race and the vast potential wealth of New Zealand were taken into consideration there was surely no need to have any fears regarding the future. One of the causes of the present unsatisfactory financial position of the railways was the general depression which affected the department in common with other business concerns. That condition could not be permanent. A slight increase in production from the land would effect ’an improvement, and other factors would be land settlement, an increase in manufacturing, and the development of the tourist traffic. Mr Coates said it would not. be possible for this country to function without its railway communications. It was inevitable. No general manager of railways would ever be able to make the operating railways pay so long as there were changes of Government and strokes of the political pen. The railways would never be a success under the present system. There was only one way in which they could be placed on a paying basis, and that would be to hand them over to a directorate. Such a system had been introduced with success in Canada, Belgium, and Germany. All Ministers of Railways had found difficulty in meeting the pressure of interested parties with reference to freights, and there would always be hesitation to make any increase. The only sure way to relieve the burden that the railways placed on the taxpayers would be to hand the whole system over to an independent board of directors. Mr W. Nash (Hutt) said the Leader of the Opposition favoured handing the railways over to a board of directors to make them pay. " It would appear that lie considered the most important thing was to make them pay a dividend to the shareholders, namely, the people of New Zealand. Continuing, Mr Nash criticised the action of the Government in dismissing men from the railway service. He contended that the dismissals had not been due to lack of work for the men to do, but because of lack of money to pay them. This was an unwise policy because once the men were dismissed they immediately became a charge, on the State in another direction. It would surely be more economic to employ men on useful work in the Railways Department than to engage them on relief works.

Mr W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) said the railways should not be resided so much from the point of view of loss as from the point of view of the development of the country. He agreed thatlhe losses should be reduced to a minimum, but development was the main thing. It was necessary for the Government to grapple with the question of motor transport in competition with the railways. He hoped some legislation dealing with the subject would be introduced this session.

Mr W. J. Jordan (Manakau) also criticised the dismissals in the railway service. He asked whether it was the policy of the department to buy British goods. He contended that American paint had been used on the Rotorua

train, and he asked whether it was proving satisfactory. He contended that American representatives had been given better facilities for demonstrating their paint than British firms had Ifhd. Mr J. S. Fletcher (Grey Lynn) contended that mqney had been lost as the result of coal contracts in the Waikato. The country was being put to the unnecessary expense of £2500 per annum because the lowest tenders had been passed over. The Minister of Public Works (Mr W. B. Taverner) said the present Government could claim that it had placed the position of the railways fairly before the people. No one had forecasted the development of motor transport, but the present position was due in a measure to past extravagance. The statement that the railways should be placed under the control of a directorate was nothing more than drawing a red herring across the track. Mr E. J. Howard (Christchurch South) said one of the reasons why the New Zealand railways were not paying was because they were out of date and not run on business lines. The Government’s policy lacked vision. Continuing the debate on the Railways Statement, Mr C. A. Wilkinson (Egmont) advocated a system of freight charges on the basis of weight alone. He stated that it was on this basis that competitors attracted business from the railways. He also supported the remarks of the general manager of railways with respect to rolling stock. He considered it was important that renewals should be made., Referring to the problem of co-ordination, Mr Wilkinson said he thought it would be found necessary in some cases to confine the railway service to the carriage of freight alone. In other cases it might even be necessary to close down a railway line and substitute a road service.

Mr H. S. S. Kyle (Riccarton) said that it was time political railways were abolished. They had been a curse in the past, and he hoped the electors would soon come to the conclusion that the sooner the railways were removed from the political arena the better.

Mr M. J. Savage (Auckland West) said the railways should be regarded as a social service, and whether they paid or not was not an important point. If the railways had to be placed on a balance sheet basis the country would not be properly served. Mr F. Waite (Clutha) said that, if there were an overlapping of the services, in the final analysis the consumer had to pay. In the past the railways had been the best means of opening up the country, but it was questionable whether they wore to-dav.

The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr H. E. Holland) said if the day ever came when we rejected the idea of the railways being a public utility and we treated them as a business concern we would have to credit them with the value to the country that had resulted from their construction and maintenance. It would be a difficult task to assess that value. He endorsed the statement of Mr Savage that the railways should be regarded as a social service. Continuing, Mr Holland said that while the Minister of Railways on the one hand was explaining that thpre was not enough work to keep all the employees engaged, the general manager on the other hand reported that there was a crying need for rolling stock. There was an urgent necessity for work to be done in constructing new rolling stock, but insufficient money was provided for the purpose. -Mr Holland contended that the dismissal of the men from the railway workshops could not be justified. It struck first at the men because they suffered most, and, secondly, through the men "at the whole of the community of New Zealand. Furthermore, the failure to provide efficient rolling stock was one of the contributing factors to the- losses on the railways. It would be a saving proposition to replace all the men that had been dismissed.

Mr H. G. Dickie (Patea) questioned whether the country was getting value for the money expended on publicity in the Railways Department. He considered that the present general manager would be able to attain good results from the operation of the railways if he were given a free hand. Mr C. L. Carr (Timaru) expressed the opinion that the introduction of lighter and faster trains would produce more satisfactory results. Shortly before 11.30 Mr Ransom appealed to the House to put the Statement through before midnight, the scheduled hour for the rising of the House, because the House would not be sitting to-morrow afternoon or on Monday. Replying to the debate, Mr Veitch assured the House that he had listened carefully to all that had been said by members. He had made a note of the points raised, and all of them would be considered when they came to reconstruct the policy, of the department in the light of the report of the Railway Commission now sitting. The Minister added that the cost of repairing the rolling stock had been a serious drain on the railway finances. Since the general manager’s report had been compiled £210,000 had been provided for the purchase of material to be worked into the manufacture of rolling stock. That material, he understood, was already on the water. In .addition, £120,000 had been made available to be used for fabricating rolling stock. The total of these two sums would be sufficient to keep the workshops going. The deficiency explained in the general manager’s report had already been met.

The House then proceeded to consider in Committee of Supply the estimate of £6,378,003 for the working railways account. Mr H. E. Holland moved that the total vote be reduced as a protest against the action of the Minister in continuing the dismissals in the railway service and in reducing orders for coal supplies, thereby dislocating trade. Mr Holland’s amendment was rejected on a division by 40 votes to 24. Progress was then reported, and the House rose at 0.10 a.m.

WELLINGTON. September 19.

The House met at 10.30 this morning, LONDON AND NEW ZEALAND BANK.

The London and New Zealand Bank. Limited, Amendment Bill was reported from the committee without amendment.

THE RAILWAY ESTIMATES.

Consideration of the Estimate of £6,378,003 for the working railways account was resumed in Committee of Supply. The Minister (Mr W. A. Veitch) said he desired to give the House the facts with reference to Mr J. S. Fletcher’s allegation that the department had not accepted the lowest tender for coal in the Waikato. Mr Veitch stated that one company had offered to supply coal at a certain figure all the year round. He emphasised that the tender at a lower price was not for all the year round, and this wa« not acceptable to the department. Mr Fletcher read a telegram to the company which he said he had been assured was the first communication the company had received on the subject. This telegram asked for a tender for the supply of coal requirements for a period of. say, three years. Mr Fletcher declared that there was -absolutely no reference to seasonal requirements in the telegram. He challenged the Minister to show that there had bem any earlier communication to this company. Mr Veitch read earlier correspondence on the subject to various companies, in eluding the company to which Mr Fletcher had referred. He said it was quite apparent that tin Government’s contract had beer in the best interests of the country.

Mr Fletcher said that in spite of the Minister’s assurance, the facts were that the Pukemiro Coal Company and the Renown Colliery had offered the Govern ment supplies at 19s per ton, whereas the Government ha< accepted the tendei of the Taupiri Company at 19s 3d. He moved that the estimate be reduced by £9 as an indication that the whole question of the coal contract should be referred to the Railways Committee for investigation. The Minister insisted that Mr Fletcher had misrepresented the position. He agreed to refer the contract to the committee, and the amendment was thereupon lost on the voices.

The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr H. E. Holland) again raised objection to the reductions of coal orders. He said the Minister had explained that it was necessary to work down existing supplies of inferior coal, but even if this were necessary it should have been seen that there was danger of creating unemployment.

Mr W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) referring :o the Waikato coal contract, suggested chat it would have been wise to spread the order over a number of companies, with a view to keeping a greater number of men employed. Mr Veitch said the position of the coal mines in the Waikato could not be permanently dislocated. The Taupiri Com pany would not be a competitor, as formerly, in the open market, which was still available to tht other companies. Mr J. O’Brien (Westland) urged that the department should use nothing but New Zealand coal on the railways. Mr Veitch: As far as is humanly possible, we will.

Progress was reported, and the House rose at 12.45 p.m. till 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday next.