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GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

' HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

MONDAY, JULY 28, 1862. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock, IHCORRKCT RUPOBTINO. Mr. WELD called attention to an error that had crept into a report in the Independent, of July 26th, in which he had been made by inference to repudiate the Treaty cf Waitangi, whereas he had, oa the con- - trary, insisted that iLwaa binding on us to fulfil every point and title of it. Mr. CiT AFFORD referred tp the reports in the Wellington papers generally as being incorrect. THE ADJOURNED DEBATE ON KIHISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL resumed the Debate. He referred briefly to the intentions of the Government in the resolution now proposed. It was one of a middle character equally removed from the doctrine of complete responsibility, and from that propounded in the opposite extreme. Mr. STAFFORD made a long and eloquent speech, in the course of wh''ck he sai.t : — In approaching the consideration of this question, 1 am oppressed, I frankly admit, by a sense of great responsibility, and of very great embarrassment — an embarrassment not arising out of the terms of the motion, or of remit date, 'but one which I have experienced for the last six years, during which Responsible Government has been established in this country. The hon. the Post-muster-General has fairiy enough placed before the Hou«e the position of a Responsible Governim nt in a dependency of an. Empire. It is simply impos ible that the system of the responsibility of the Executive to the elected representatives of the people can be worked in the same complete manner in a dependency, as it is, or may be, in an independent nation. In the latter, the sovereign Executive power, whether called constitutional King, or by some other name, and the legislature, have to deal with each other alone. There is no power outside of those two bodies which can affect their relations to each other. But with respect to a dependency there is always an external power capable of controlling and directing the action of the local government. -How do we stand in this country with respect to this out&ide controlling power? It might have happened that we might have been in the same position as some other colonies having Representative Legislatures— as the Cape Colony, from which the present Governor has last come — that no Ministerial responsibility to control the actions of the Governor had been established. In that case European and native questions would be on the same footing, and one element of the complication which surrounded the consideration of the question in this country would have been absent. In that position too, he would say with reference to the speech of the hon member for Ellesmere, we might have controlled the supplies voted as effectually as we could now do. But in this country the direct resnonsibih'ty of ihe Executive to the Legislature in all matters affecting Colonial interests only had for some veara been established. And I may here observe, that I have never for one moment contemplated any ■withdrawing from the system now in operation. Nor am I aware that any of those with whom I am on terms of political intimacy, ever dreamed of any diminution of the power and influence which the Legislature now exercise over the Executive, as the hon. member for Wallace seemed to infer, (hear, hear.) I indignantly repudiate such an assertion; on the contrary I shall always maiutain, as I have hitherto maintained, that the Government of the Colony, in purely colonial matters, should be, and can best be, administered in deference to the expressed wishes of the representatives of the colony, and by persons directly responsible to the Legislature for the manner in which it is administered. (Hear, hear.) We are thus in this position of difficulty, that as to one class of public affairs the Government is entirely responsible for its action to the Legislature of New Zealand, and there is no interference with that action; while with respect to another large class there is a great power outside the colony which has both the right and the will to interfere, as has been lately shown by the very appointment of Sir George Grey to administer the Government. Does the resolution bow proposed by Ministers meet this difficulty ? To my mind it not only does not do that, but it infinitely and most indefinitely increases it. It proposes to do nothing. There is "nothing of real power or significance in it. It is mere empty words in so far as it may propose to establish any real power or responsibility as to the administration of Native attains, while it raises up an indefinite liability for that administration I hold as strongly as the honorable member, or any person could do, the absolute necessity of the Governor being accountable for the native policy and administration. We only differ as to the mode in which that accountability is to be ensured. The proposition before the Home does not ensure it. Still less would the plan of the hon. member for Eliesmere ensure it Indeed, the very essence of that plan, that ministers should be responsible for everything, would *Btail, as a necessary corollary, that the Governor would be responsible for nothing. (Hear, hear.) The position was so transparent that lam astonished at the illogieal conclusion at which the hon. member has arrived in his desire to fix accountability on the Governor. I say this with the highest respect for the acknowledged talent of the hon. member, and ior the power of clearly expressing his opinions for which hf> is so famous, which, however, renders the extraordinary self-delusion under which the hon gentleman labors on the present occasion all the more remarkable. (Laughter.) It is because I desire to hold the Governor accountable to this House that I by no means will be content to hold the hon^ gentlemen opposite responsible for th" native policy, and thus to transfer the accountability from the Governor to them. I will not place them in that position— " Like feather bed on castle wall, To bear the brunt of cannon ball." With respect to all the conflicting interests,' this resolution proposes a compromise between those interests — a compromise of a kind to which I cannot assent. I too, Sir, will propose a compromise — one for which there is sufficient precedent— one which was frequently acted on by a people who made their presence felt in their time. The Romans, Sir, in grave emergencies, used to appoint a Dictator for a limited time. The Dictator could suspend any law which interfered with his acting for the public safety during his Dictatorship, but when the period had transpired was held to account for the mode in which lie had exercised his great powers} when lie was either rewarded or degraded and punished — even sometimes by cutting off his head. Sir, I would in the 'present position of this portion of the Colony be prepared to see Sir George Grey, on any emergencies which may occur in Native matters, act as a Dictator, lor one year, with respect to su<\h emergencies. At the end of that time this House' would consider how he had acted, and whether it was fitting or not that such discretionary power should be possesed by him. (Cheers.) Dr. FEATHERSTON : Sir, there are so many opinions expressed by the hon. member who has just addressed the House, and hy previous speakers in which I concur, that I am in some respects in difficulties ; for if there is one thing which I hate more than another it is to travel over ground that already has been trod— to repeat arguments that have already been enforced. Yet. Sir, after the able manner in which the resolution before the House has been discussed by both sides of the House— by those v/ho support and those who opposed it — I find it difficult, nay impossible, to avoid referring to topics that have been touched upon and far more ably handled than I can possibly pretend to handle them. Sir, when I say this as a party movement and must be treated and regarded as such, I entirely acquit my hon. friend the member for EJlesmere, my hon. friend the Superintendents of Canterbury and Otago, and other hon. members near me of being parties to this party movement. But I repeat it is a party movement, and if the resolution be negatived, my hon. friend at the head of the Government and his colleagues have no other course open to them than at once to place their resignations in the hands of His Excellency. It appears to me, Sir, that my 'hon. friend in consenting to define specifically the relations that are to be maintained between the Governor and his Responsible advisers either in regard to Native or other affairs, has simply consented to attempt an impossibility. Sir, no such demand in any country enjoying Responsible Institutions or Parliamentary Government has ever been made by the Legislature. I need not therefore add that no such task lias ever been imposed upon any Constitutional Government as has been undertaken by my hon. friend at the head of the Government, that of defining and reducing to writing the relations between the Crown or the Crowa's Representative and their Responsible advisers. ? . . Sir, if there is one object at which more than another, we should aim and strive, it is whi'e not ignoring the value of personal influence, of personal attachments to attach the Natives to our institutions, to impire them with the fullest confidence in the representatives of the colony, to make them in short regard this House as a tribunal to which they may ever confidently appeal for the removal of their grievances, for the redreßS of any wrongs they may be suffering. And such is precisely ? I believe, the object Sir George Grey has in view in declaring that henceforth her Majesty's representatives must be guided in the administration of Native ailhirs by Ministers responsible to this House. But, sir, a refusal on our part to share with hi 3 Excellency the responsibility of governing the Native race will appear still more monstrous if we for one moment consider the position of the colony (as regards the natives) as contrasted with what it was when lie quitted it some nine y<'ara ago Sir George Grey does not ask you to give him any assistance in men and money — he doe? not call upon you for a blood and treasure assistance — for " a blood a;id treasure expenditure"— he does not come down to ** this house and threaten you that unless you are prepared to pay a large portion of the expenses of a war, in causing and in carrying on of which you have had LUO part, no voice, he will withdraw toe troops and

leave the settlers of this Island at any risk to the 1 tender mercies of a race who are smarting under a | deep sense of injustice ; aud whose worse passions ] have been evoked by what they believe a most unjust, ' wanton, and wicked onslaught on their homes and properties. Such, Sir, id not the kind of assistance , that His Excellency seeks at you" hands. He makes , no demand upon your pockets, but he appeals to the t highest, the noblest faculties of the human mind— to ] the warmest feelings of the humau heart. He does not come down to this House to drive a huckstering ] bargain, but he says in plain and simple language, "W ill you share with me the grave responsibilities ■ which the present critical position of the colony ■ entails? Will you, the representatives of the people, • aid me with your counsel and advice 1 Will you, as , far ns you can, relieve me of some of the cares and ( | anxieties incurred for your sake, and for your sake ! alone ? I will do my duty, are you prepared to per- , form yours ] " Sir, I trust that such an appeal will never ba made to any body of Englishmen, still les9 ', to any Representative Legislature in vain. I do earnestly hope that such an appeal, coming from one to whom the Colony is so deeply indebted, will not be spurned and rejected by this House. But should 9uch unhappily be the case, I for one shall still cling to the hope ttiat an indignant and oiibaged couutry will repudiate and reverse your decision. i ! Mr. CRACIIOFr WILSON said that there were i three fallacies iv the eloquent speech they hnd just i heard. The first was that Sir George Grey needed their advice ; the second, that if they negatived this i resolution, he would be prevented asking for it ; and the third, 'hat the Maories were not British subjects. ■ If he had read history aright, Sir George Grey was the last man to require advice as to how natives . should be managed ; but still if he wishpd it, the House did not prohibit him from consulting his Ministers. i Mr. CARLETON entered into a lengthy expression of the history of Ministerial responsibility in New Zealand, and he concluded by saying that he had stated his objections to the reoolutions before the House. He had also stated why he thought those objections insufficient to hinder him from voting with t'.e Government on that occasion. Mr. DO.VIfc.TT would simply content himself with voting against the resolution. He did not object so much to the resolution itself as to the arguments hat had been used in favour of it. (Laughter.) { [Mr. WATT said he did net desire that this shonld be a party movement, or that Ministers should resign if their motion was negatived. He considered the present resolution unreal. EVEMING SITTIKO. The debate was resumed at 7 o'clock. Mr. CARTER had listened with no small degree of pleasure to the generous, though enthusiastic, sentiments re-pecting the natives expressed by the hon. member for Elksmere, and agreed with him that the resolution before the House was somewhat indefinite. He thought that a rider should have been added to the resolution defining the amount the colony could pay for Imperial assibtauce in troops, &c, for there was no disguising the fact that a good deal of opposition to the resolution was grounded on the fear of the colony having to pay some undefined large sum of money. | Mr. CURTIS considered that more time should be taken to discuss the question, and, therefore, moved the previous question, which was seconded by Major Richardson. Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON said he had been waiting, before he proceeded to take any part in this discussion, for some amendment to be submitted by those who opposed the motion of his hon. friend at he head of the Government. It now appeared that the Opposition were to content themselves with the proposition just made, and leave matters as they were before the resolution which, under their own challenge, had been submitted by the Government. Well, he thought this was not fair treatment to the House itself, much less to the Government, which the mover of the amendment and his party opposed. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FITZHERBERT observed that the debate had assumed a character that precluded him from giving a silent vote on the question At the same time he could not refrain from remarking, and he did so with every respect, that in his humble opinion, the production of the resolution before the Hou&e was in itself a blunder. He, for one, could perceive no practical object to be attained by the present mode of procedure ; lor an affirmation of the resolution could only land them wheie they were already placed by the resolution of 18(51, of which it was merely a duplicate. Mr. WELD said that after the "speeches that had been made by hon. members opposite, after all the talk about high constitutional principles and political consistency, one might almost be led to imagine that the resolution embodied some important assertion of our rights and privileges. The hon. member for Wellington had beat the big drum, and the hon. member for the Ilutt had fired off his jokes : repeated that witty but semithtafrical performance, with which old members of the House were so familiar — all about what ? about a miserable resolution which, while leaving to the Governor all real power, reserved to the Ministry such great questions as the right of deciding whether Paora should have a new blanket, or Matia an extra ' bucket of lillipee ; — (laughter) — that was about the real meaning of the resolution. (Hear) He did not say that the Mm stry should be forbidden to assist the Governor; he did not say we musr, not fetter the Governor, er compromise ourselves by imposing them upon the Governor. On Native mHttera Sir ' George Grey had been sent out as a dictator— he (Mr. Weld) wished the H >use to reeosrni=e facts, and not to pretend to a pow«r which they really had not, and could not assert in the present circumstances of the Colony. Mr. R. GRAHAM said, that although Sir George Grey had not taken exactly the course he had expected, yet lie trusted the House wouid agree to let him (Sir George Grey) have the advice of Responsible Ministers, and whatever money they could give him to help to carry out his plans, which he believed would ultimately be successful. The COLONIAL SECRETARY then proceeded to reply. He wished hon. members opposite had addressed themselves to the question in a more straightforward and manly way. The Government had been constrained by a large number of members on both sides of the House to take this step of attempting to define what he thought would have been better left alone. In doing so, they had simply reduced into form the relations that had existed between themselves and His Excellency during the past year, and, with the exception of the introductory portion, had used the identical words of the resolution passed by the House a year ago without dissent ; and on 1 that resolution he felt now bound to inform the Housethe Governtnentfelteon&trained totakeits stand. ; Deeply do I regret to hear hon. members who have ' been admirers ot Mr. Fenton's enlightened views, and ■who took an active part in the inquiry before the [ Waikato Committee, retracting to-day all their pre- ', vious opinions, and laboring to persuade this House r that there is mystery in Native affairs, and that we [ must resort to some individual supposed to possess some peculiar " mana," and who may cast his spell r over the Native race. Sir, I venture to say that if Sir George Grey is meant, no man would more indig- , nantly scout the idea than he would that by auy such ' means he ia going to solve the Native problem. All t that he has writte, , all that he has done, all that I have ever heard him say, proves that he, at all events, ; believes not that there is mystery in native' affairs. [ The spells to which he trusts are equity, justice, | and truth, coupled with the introduction of free institutions such as we ourselves enjoy. The "corruption" of the Natives by presents and ' pensions, of which Mr. O'Neill had spoken, he (Mr. Pox) went on to show to be less than sixpence a-piece per annum during the last 16 years. He desired hon. f members not to decide this question on abstract prinI ciple3, but to consider whether the system proposed . would work, and bring about a satisfactory result ; j and argued that with the assistance of his viinisters ; the Governor would be far more likely to obtain a ■ satisfactory result, than if they followed the idea of ; the hon. member for Nel3on, and made him a Dictator, throwing the work upon him to do singlehanded, a ( task which would crush even Sir G. Grey. On the SPEAKER putting the question "that this question be now put," the House divided as I follows — Ayes 22. Noes 22. i Messrs. Bell Messrs. Atkinson „ Brandon „ Butler „ Carter „ Colenso >i Eyes n Curtis „ Featherston „ Di c k „ Fitzgerald „ Gillies „ Fitzherbert „ Jollie i „ Graham „ Mason I „ G. Graham „ Moorhouhe > „ R. Harrison „ Mantell ; „ Henderaton „ Nixon „ Fox „ O'Niell 5 „ Munro „ A.J. Richmond : „ O'Rorke „ J.C.Richmond „ Renall „ Russell „ Rhodes „ Stafford i „ Saunders „ Wilson i „ C. J. Taylor „ Jas.Williamson „ W. W.Taylor „ Weld „ J.Williamson „ Wells „ Wood „ Watt ! „ Ward (teller.) „ Richardson t (teller.) 5 The Speaker gave his casting vote in favour of the Noe3. Mr. Carleton (aye) paired with Mr. Domett • (no.) | The SPEAKER said the constitutional course for ' him to take, was that which would leave the question most open for discussion. He therefore gave his * vote with the Noes, a course which he was bound to J say was, in this instance, in accordance with his ■ opinion a-« a representative. r The COLONIAL TREASURER moved tho ad- | journment of the House, at the same time announcing that he should make the uaual Financial State1 meut on Tuesday, [ T OESDA V , J UL Y 29, 1862. [ The SPEAKER took the Chair at 22 o'clock.

RESIGNATION OF IMMSTERS.

The COL. SECRETARY wished to iuform the House what had occurred since the last meeting. The House would not perhaps be surprised to hear that, after the vote arrived at last night mrl the debate which preceded it, ministers had felt that the only course consistent with propriety, self-respect and deference to the wishes of the House, was to resign. They had done so this morning, and advised His Excellency to send for Mr. Stafford, believing him to have the confidence of the opposite party. Ministers had retired, he said not as considering the vote last niaht an adverse vote, still less as one of want of confidence ; but because they had become aware from the debate and p ivnte conferences that they had no reasonable prospects of being able to cirry the measures essential to their native policy, in the manner they considered necessary. As it v/ouki now be improper to proceed with any hut routine business, he moved that the House do now adjourn till to-morrow. Motion agreed to. House adjourned. WEDNESDAY, JULY 30, 18G2. The House met at 5 p.m. The Members' benches and Strangers' nailery were alike crowded, in the expectation of hearing some explanation from Mr. StafiVd, but none took place, and the sitting' wf.9 over in a few minutes. The Committee on Private Grievances brought up an interim report. Several motions which had lapsed through the adjournment of the House wee lenewed. Mr. THOMPSON took the oaths and his seat for Avon, Canterbury. The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved the adjournment of the House, and the House adjourned accordingly to 12 to-day. THURSDAY, JULY 31, 1862. The House of Representatives met at 12 to-day. THE MINISTERIAL CRISIS. Mr. STAFFORD announced that on Tuesday last, he waited on His Excellency Iry request, who desired to entrust him with th formation ef a Ministry. For certain reasons he was unable to do otherwise than decline the task His Excellency sought io iiopo«e upon him ; but recommemicJ that Mr. Fitzgerald should be sent for, as a gentleman possessing 1 the goodwill of members of all parties, andow.ng to his long absence from the Assembly, not likely to be checked by party animosities. After some routine business, Mr. FITZGERALD said it would perhaps only embarass the efforts that might be madp to form a Government, if he detailed the results of the negotiations he had undertaken at Hie request of H ; s Excellency. He w ould only say that Mr. Domett had been sent for. The House then adjourned to 12 to-morrow. FRIDAY, Ist AUGUST, 18C2. The House met at 12 o'clock. THE MINISTERIAL CRISIS. I Mr. DOMETT asked the attention of the Hou?e before proceeding to business. The House v, as already aware, from what was said yesterday by the hou. member for Eilesuicre (Mr- Fitzgerald) that his Excellency had sent for him (Mr. Domett) to form a Ministry. He had no desire to accept the ta.sk, and only confuted at the strong request of his Excellency. He was desirous of forming a Ministry that should be strong — that should meet with the suppoit of that House and favor outside. He fir&fc applied \o the lion, gentleman at present at the head of the Government, but that gentleman had for certain reasons declined joining him. He thought the course pursued by that «entl?inan was what, under all the circuin^tances, he ought to have pursued : he considered the leasons which Mr. Fox had urged, justified him in declining to form one of his (Air. Domett's) Ministry. Having failed to obtain Mr. Fox's adhesion, he was obliged to look elsewhere, and he belie\ ed he was in a fair way of forming a ministry. Cabinet making was difficult work, and he must" ask the House to give him to Tuesday next to perfect his arrancements. lie had expressed his views to his Excellency, and lie might now &ay that with reference to this Island lie thought large pacific measures would be required, and he believed he might tell his Excellency that the Hou«e would be willing to approve them. (Applau ie.) PANAMA HOUTE. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL brought up thg following interim Report, having reference to the j Panama route. INTERIM REPORT. Your Committee having- taken into consideration that part of the subject committed to them which nfers to communication with the United Kingdom and to the Ocean Postal Service, have agreed to the following resolutions, which they recommend for adoption by this House :— 1. That, in the opinion of this Committee, the establishment of regular monthly steam communication between New" Zealand and the United Kingdom, via Panama, is calculated to confer very great benefit upon this Colony. 2. That, considering the probable expense of such an undertaking, it is desirable that the service should be so constructed as to eonfrr advantage upon, and obtain the support of the neighboring Colonies. 3. That this Committee recommends the appropriation of a sum not exceeding £30,000 per annum horn Ist January, 1864, for five years, as a contribution towards the Colonial portion of a subsidy for such a seivice. Crosuie Ward, Chairman. July 31, 18G2. The COLONIAL SECRETARY said that as it w.is doubtful n.s to who was in charge of the business of the House, he would move an adjournment until Tuesday, the oth August next. Adjourned accordingly. TUESDAY, sth AUGUST, 1862. The House ni<;t at VI o'clock. Mr. Domett occupying the Ministerial Benches. MINISTERIAL EXPLANATION. Mr. DOMETT called the recollection of the House to the statement made by him on Friday, in which he mentioned that at the strong desire of his Excellency, h<; had contented to endeavour to form .'i Ministry. After receiving His Excellency's instructions to form a M iuistry, he went to the gentleman lately at the head of the Government, with a view to obtaining the adhesion of that Ministiy ; Mr. Fox to take the office of Native Minister, himself being Coloninl Secretary and Premier. Finding that that arrangement could not be carried out, that Mr. Fox would not conseut to give up the premiership, and he (Mr. Domett) not fe Hug it due to himself to give it up either, he was obliged to seek eVewhere for materials. Being desirous . to form a strong Ministry, not dependent on the acci- , dentil presence or absence of one or two supporters, i he turned his attention towards forming a Ministry composed of men of moderate opinions, of men who • were not embittered by party acrimony. Having had . the Native question to a great extent taken out of their hands, and there being a general agreement between himself and the gentlemen of the late Ministry on other matters, he endeavoured to md ice Mr. Wool and others of that Ministry to accept office under him. They ultimately declined to do so, Aihich he much regretted, as he was anxious that the\r should ' join him, their talent and influence being well known He thought that by making all these offers he had di-tinctly shown that he was not averse to tint party; that he wished to be distinctly understood, and he ; st ill hoped that the services of some of them might be rendered to him. He had now to state that he had , formed his Ministry thus. For the office of Native i Minister he was happy to say lie had secured the services of Mr. Bell, a better man than whom for that i of'ice could not be found ; it was an appointment t which he believed^ would meet with general con- - ci.mnce. The offices of Postmaster- General, and Secretary for Crown Lands, had been accepted by his friend Mr. Mantell, and Mr. Gillies would hold the Attorney Generalship for the present. He had not >( t obtained a Treasurer, but negotiations were going i on by which he hoped to secure the services of an Auckland member. " He, himself, took the office of Colonial Secretary. Seats without office had been accepted by My. Russell of Auckland, and the lion. Mr. Tailored, of Canterbury, the latter of whom would take charge of the business in the other House. He was aloO in negotiation for another member, as he was desirms, if possible, of representing the Provinces generally. He hoped to carry on the business of the country in a way fair to everybody. He had not sought office, nor wab he anxious to keep it. lie was at present short handed ; but with the assistance o tbe Hoiuu, he hoped to get through the business before them without delay— an a&sibtance which he rusted would be afforded him, as he had only accepted ofhee as a paramount duty, and to avoid their dissensions producing a result which must be most deplorable to the country, Mr. FOX said he was happy to find from the honorable member's speech, that one point, about which some of hi* supporters had felt annoyed, had been cleared up with a candour which lie trusted all who occupied seats in that House, and especially on the Government benches would always exhibit! It had been a general impression that M. Domett had allowed twenty-four or twenty-fivo hours to elapse before consulting himself and the late ministry. He ■ was therefore glad to learu from Mr. Domett's ; statement, that he (Mr. Domett) had at once considered it his duty to consult them. Mr. DOMETT here explained, that he did not • mean to say that he had walked direct from 1 Government House to Mr. Fox'.s, but that he had 1 it in his head from the first to consult him. 1 Mr. FOX continued, observing that the explanation of Mr. Domett would be most satisfactory to hia (Mr. Fox's) supporters, as it assured them that, " although so long a period had elapsed, he (Mr. Domett,) had not attempted to form any ministerial combination previously to hia endeayoui- to do so with the late ministry. Mr. FITZGERALD— Sir, I hope I may be allowed to claim tlie game indulgence which, the House has

extended to the two hon. members who have just spoken. I wish to explain what took place between his Excellency and myself, in order that it may not be supposed that I made any attempt to form a n>inist.ry" and failed to do so. The only communication between his Excellency and myself, wtis one in which I informed his Excellency definitely that, for reasons with which the House has nothing to do, and which therefore I need not mention, it was not in my power to accept any office. The Governor was pleased to a»k me to advise him as to what course he should adopt. He stated that he had s.;en Mr. Stafford, who had declined to form a ministry. Sir, I thought it ray duty 10 advise his Excellency that there were no diileienee of opinion, so far as I could see, existing in the House of so substantial a natuie as to preclude [the formation of a ministry consisting of the ablest men on both sides of the Hou^e ; but the leader of the party who opposed the late Government having formally refused to undertake the t,tsk of forming: a Ministry, I was of opinion that such a coalition could only be formed between members of the late Government and those who held subordinate positions on the opposite side. His Excellency was pleased to request me to take twenty- : our hours to consider what could be effected, and \vh \t ndvice I should be prepared finally to give on the subject. I did so, and the result at which I arrived was. that the strongest Ministry which could be formed would be one in which my hon. friend (Mr Domett) should take a principal part, in conjunction wkh the hon. gentleman who had been at the head of the late Ministry. It did not occur to me, Sir, that any difference was likely to arise as to who should take the precedence in such a Ministry; but had such a point occurred to me, I should have advised that, that was a point to be decided by the Governor. I should have supposed that both these hon. gentlemen would have readily abided by such a decision ; and in doing so they would have merely been following a precedent when events of a bi mi lar nature occurred in our old country. Kir, I u'vi^-d his Excellency to send for Mr. Domett, under U.e impiession that a Ministry comprising both that gentleman and Mr. Fox would have been formed without difficulty. I thought that those hon. gentlemen could have formed a Government in which a very large portion of the colony would have had pi-eat confidence. I still i egret that any circumstances should have occurred to prevent a more perfect coalition of opposite parties in this House — a coalition which I think would bo of permanent advantage both to this House and to the colony at Lxr^e. STEAM SERVICE. Mr. WARD bi ought up the following interim report, which was agreed to be consideied in Committee of Supply INTLKIM REPORT NO. 2. Your Committee beg to report the following resolutions :—: — " Resolved — T hat the requirements of the Colony will not be fully satisfied with less than three of Intercolonial steam sci vices, viz.— between Melbourne and the South ; between Auckland and SyJney ; and between Cook's Stiaits and Sydney, respectively. "That the steam service refened to in the foregoing Resolution of the Committee be undertaken by the General Government, aud be borne on the General Estimates. "That comimriication should be maintained between the principal provinces of the Colony four time* a month, r,nd between all the provinces twice a month, provided that the whole expense of such Interprovincial service do not exceed £20,000 per annum " NOMINATED SUPERINTENDENTS. After several notices of motion of no partecular interest, excepting one by Mr. Fitzgerald for leave to biing in a bill to provide for the nomination of super, intendents by the Governor, and" for vesting their powers in certain cases in Lieutenant- Governors. RELATIONS WITH MIDDLE ISLAND. Mr. DICK postponed the following question, unti the new Government had taken their seats, as from the members not yet being sworn in, it was not possible to obtain a satisfactory answer : — "Whether it is the intention of Government to propose during this session any alteration of existing arrangements, whereby the Southern Provinces of this Colony shall be brought into closer connection with the Seat of Government, and shall have more speedy and satisfactory attention paid to their re- j cruire.mcn.ts." BUSINESS OP THE HOUSE. Mr. DOMETT in moving the adjournment of the House, intimated that as to-morrow would be devoted to the discussion of Mr. Fitzgerald' & abstract resolutions, he should offer no objection to t ie House s>it ting ; but he would not be prepared to enter into a statement of Ministerial policy uutil Thursday. He hoped to be able to bring the Session to a close by the end of the month. House adjourned to Wednesday, 5 p.m. WEDNESDAY, 6th AUGUST, 1862. The House met at 5 p.m. Mr. DOMETT would request leave to postpone his explanation] from Thursday to Friday, inconsequence of a despatcli received from the Duke of Newcastle, aftectiuir the question of responsibility, and the liability of the Colony for expenditure relative to Native government. He would move to-morrow, certain resolutions relative to Native responsibility. I Mr. BELL read the despatch above mpiitioned, which is of great length, approving the arrangements made by the Governor relative to Ministerial responsibility, pointing to a withdrawal of the troops sooner than theolony seemed to anticipate, and insisting ou the colony paying a much greater share of the war expenditure, &c., than it had previously ottered to do. Mr. R. GRAHAM moved for papers in connection with the introduction of game, which after an explanation from Mr. Fox as to the reason for countermanding the order sent by the Stafford Ministry,—the want of an appropriation — was agned to, after a preat deal of amusement had been occasioned by the history of the failure to import " bumble bees." After Mr. WELD, Mr. MANTELL, and Mr. THOMPSON made motion-) of no very general interest, Mr. GILLIES obtained "a Select Committee to consider and report as to the expediency of introducing some more simple and less costly procedure for the trial of Civil cases of minor importance," and al&o a Committee for considering the expediency of amending the law of Debtor and Creditor. Mr. STAFFORD moved for a return of Justices of the Peace, appointed since 2nd July, 1801, &c. Mr. FITZGERALD moved for leave ti bring in a Bill intituled " An Act to provide for the nomination of Superintendents of Provinces by His Excellency the Governor, and for ves'ing the powers of Superintendents hi certain cases in Lieutenant or Deputy Governors. Agreed to, to be read a second time on Friday. Mr. STAFFORD moved for copies of instructions to Civil Commissioners, &c, also a Return of the number of troops on which head money was paid to auth June hist. On the motion of Mr. JOLLIE, the "Report of the Private Grievances Committee was discussed at great length, the House being disinclined to entertain private grievances without their being first referred lo the Provinces interested. The present grievances related to lands in Auckland ; the report being finally adopted. NATIVE RESOLUTIONS. Mr. FITZGERALD rose with much diffidence to express an opinion un Native affairs. It arose from the great responsibility that rested upon any one who m auy way interfered with a Governmental policy. His resolutions, however, did not run counter to the policy of the Government, but in the same direction. No man who had given his attention to the subject but must have found how Maori doctors differ—one report contradicted another. One side of the House ridiculed the policy of the other, and the only conclusion that could be come to Was that they were in a sad uiess.^ Instead uf contemplating little points in the Maori character, they must take a broad view of it as a part of humanity. He repudiated the idea that Maori scholars were necessarily Maori statesmen, but was glad to recognise a scholar like Mr. Bell at the head of the Native Office. Statesmen could learn very readily the peculiar characteristics of the Maori, and when he contemplated those characteristics he knew of no savage race which could make such progress in a life-time. The Maori was a man of courageous and generous character. The Maori had a great intellectual character. He had seen papers written by Maories which would have clone credit to the greatest diplomatist in the world. lie would quote from Mr. Gorst— who he considered took about the lowest view of their character of all the report writers. Yet Mr. Gorst, who himself stands as a man of great intellectual rank, remarks of them thus : — " Of the auuteness and wisdom of these men, I feel i bound to speak in the very highest terms. In all questions which I have heard discussed by them they have argued with calmness and good temper, kept steadily to the point at issue, looked at the question from every side, and faced all its difficulties, and have usually come to a jn&t decision. In their strongest opposition, they have never behaved with anything approaching to rudeness. It would be impossible to find a body of men with whom the Government could more advantageously cousulc upon the subject of laws and regulations for the Natives." The Maories were a justice-loving people. He had read of their being described as Algerine pirates, but could they be compared to men who, knowing they were setting all law at defiance, persisted in it for gain. Did not the Maories oppose us bee mse they believed they were acting iv the right] If, in the late affray at Wfinganui the white man had been killed, would wehaye taken it as quietly as the Maories had done, acknowledging that our countrymau was wrong:. The vtnories were perhaps a fickle and improvident people, but remembering his own countrymen's characteristics, (Irish) he must ask them to look on those faults with & lenient eye. The policy hereto-,

fore had been one that prevented amalgamation, the objects of his resolutions were to bring them together. He then took a lucid review of the action of the Colonist, the Missionary, and the Government, in relation to the Native race. With reference to the relation between the Colonist and the Natives he came to the conclusion that the dis-union between them was an artificial one of our own making, and should be removed by ourselves. With reference to the relation of the Missionary to the Natives, he spoke strongly of the evil effect of the mistake which the Missionary had nwJe in attempting to check the progress of civilization. But great as ,vas the mistake of the Missionary, "till greater wa* the mistake of the British Government in attempting to keep the ra r> es separate. That policy was a failure, aad the Native^ would be swept away, if the Colonists did not step in to prevent it. U unfortunately there had hitherto been two governments in the colony, one for the Colonists and the other for the Native's, symbolising in the highest quarters the separation of the race 3. Our land policy had teuJed to perpetuate the deter initiation to keep the two races separate, setting apart distinct districts for each of them. He knew it would be said, as he himself used to say, that the lands of the Natives would Inve been parted with for next to nothing, but he was now satisfied that that evil could iiave been mitigated. The legislation of 1858 wi'.s the first distinctly to recognise the vicious principle of law in one part of the colony, andlaw in another, based on the proprietary of the'soil ; and in the new system about to be introduced the same principle was continued. He then reviewed tbe present condition of the Maori ; it \va.s a state of decay. The civilization that had been going on had b°en checked, owing in a great degree to the late war. The reports on the tab le showed a state of decay, as if the hurricane of war had swept over the whole island. The Natives were, however, in a state of retreat from civilization before the was, from various causes, such as the loss of power by the old chiefs — :i loss that allowed the Natives to fall into a state of political anarchy, because no institutions had been given them in its place. Another cause of decay was, that they had lost the arts of their old life before they had acquired the arts of civilization. He illustrated what he meant by contrasting the two following extiacts from one of the Commissioner's reports :—: — ISoa, save, " I am in favor of a raupo building, because I do not know how to build a wooden house, but I understand raupo work."

Rawiri says, " If I could find sawyers I would have a wooden house ; what is the good of a raupo building ! It is always out of repair ; besides my people are all young men, and dent know how to build raiipo houses.'' The Natives were like the chartists at home, wanting a something and not being able to get it. They were like i child of ten years starving on the food which at ten months fatted him. As an old Chief remarks, •• they never would have wan tad a King if they could have obtained law without." Mr. Richmond sneered at the desire of the Natives for a separate nationality ; but was it not the greatest proot of their want of law 1 He was glad the Natives had set up a separate nationality ; he was glad that they had given thh one great evidence of their growth in national life. The Native department shut their eyes to the yearning of the Maori for law\ They looked upon it %vi"}h contempt; tkey thought the mood would poon die out ; but it was not a mood, it was a newborn instinct. They wanted a nationality; he would &ay to them— Take our nationality. As regards the future, the House was under great obligations to the Fox Ministry, for reducing a paper scheme to onu or piactice. The present Alinistry were like the man in tlie Chinese proverb ; "on the back of a ti?er and couldn't ;;et off." They must keep pace with the (jrowliig wants, and not fancy that the institutions fitted for to-day will satisfy it few year* hence. He saw iv village runangas elements of evil and great anno\auci! to the Government; better absorb them in Native Provinces w ith Native Superintendents. The district runangas were clo ely allied to our own Provincial !nvtem, and he looked upon them with hope, but even they cannot have any weight without their law exteinled over the whole district, no matter who occupied the various portions of the livid. The abstract m:ijubty of the law is the grand idea to act into the minds of the Natives — to v- iiii-h native colonist*, Governor and Queecn must alike bow ; but unless the new institutions were purified such would not be the case. It appeared to him that by reeoguisinsr a claim of native owneisnip instead of taking possession by right of discovery, the Crown recoguised that the native hal a right to sell their land and that the Ciown could get noiie of it without purchase. The title of th ) native had since been practically changing. Pie was peisuaded that none believed that Crown Grants would cover the whole of the Northern Island, but he could not see why at this moment the court-, of law could not recognise tho n-itive title, why the courts should be fettered to recognise only a fee .sitnph What was called '• extinguishment of title" sLoul'l be abandoned ; and the Native should be taught to understand thar as he sold part, the remainder would become of more value than the w hole had been. When this was understood there wouid be no dearth of land. He compared the Maori to the Iri-U landlords, who were too poor to cultivate, and the Encumbered Estates Cou>t dealt with title in some smoh way as he thought tlie Maori lauds ciuld be dealt with, and quoted a report of Mr. Bell's in favour of the process— a process which would uot bj in aco.irdance with, the Lund Act introduced by the late Government. The time has arrived when the purchasing under the oid Land Purchase Department musr, cease. Very little more could be hoped to be pui chafed under that system ; but if the proposal he made were carried out, iv a very little time the market would soon be glutted. Referring to Taranaki, he considered that the colony was round to see that the colonists obtiiued what they proposed to give the Natives. If the settlers had had swords put into their hands and allowed to do as they pleased, they would have been in possession of millions of acres, and the colony was bound to see that they were compensated for every farthing they had 10-.t, and restored to their lands by a peaceful policy if possible, but within a specified date. He conc'uded by reviewing the future of the Maori, which he believed was that the Government must gain the confidence of tho Natives or destroy them. The price of confidence was free institutions— free as those which they themselves enjoyed. The resolutions he proposed contained a policy which, admitting all to tho same equality, would give the confidence desired. If nofc, the present state of armed neutrality could not last, but must end in war, — the war of the tomb. In reply to those who said that we could not trust this race, but must conquer, he would say — " In the hands of men entirely great, Tiie pen is mightier than the sword. Take away the sword— States may be saved without it. "' The honorable gentleman concluded his two hours speech by a sublime peroration, to which it is impossible in the few lines to which we are limited to condense it.

1. That in the adoption of uny policy or the passing of any laws nff cting the Native race, this House will koep before it as its highest object, the cnlire amalgamation of all Her Majesty's subjects in Nuw Zealand into one united people.

2. That this House will assent to no laws which do not rficopniae the right .of all Her Majesty's subjects of whati ver race within this Colony, to a full and equal enjoyment of civil and political privileges.

3. That a recognition of the foregoing principle will necessitate the personal aid of one or more Native Chiefs in the administration of the Government of tho Colony ; the presence of the members of the Maori Nobility in the Legislative Council and a fair representation in this House, of a race which constitutes one third of the population of the Colony.

4. That the same principle ought to be respected in the constitution and jurisdiction of all Legislative bodies subordinate to tlie General Assembly, aud of all Courts of law within this Colony.

5. That a respectful Address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, praying that Plis Excellency will be pleiispd to cai^e such steps to be taken, as he mny be advised will bring tho policy allow indicated into operation with the least practicable delay.

Mr. BIiLL had great difficulty iv following the last speaker, especially as he spoke under the responsi bilities of his newly acquired office. His consideration of those resolutions convinced him that they were identical in principle with the proposals for Native government made by the Governor. He fully concurred in the observations that put aside the supposition that there was anything that necessarily required a native scholar to understand the question of Native government. All the misery of the last twenty years was to be traced to the administration ot Native affairs under principles, by a department, and with ench, different to that which regulated European affaire. The same law of justice and right on which we based our own institutions, was the basis for the government of both races. William Thompson's letter in answer to Governor Browne's declaration was a strong corroboration of the Native power ot diplomacy, and a great mistake had all along been committed in disbelie ing what the natives said when they told us that which was unpleasant. That letter was an instance. We must now thoroughly understand that a large portion of the natives distrust the intentions of the Govern ment. If we could persuade them that we wanted to beuefit them, and not merely ourselves — if we could get them to receive us now as they received us twenty years ago, the whole difficulty would, be solved ; but that was the difficulty— to meet which they would use every means in their power. The early founders of the colony foresaw that it was scarcely possible to prevent an antagonism springing up, and hence the system of reserving lands in the mid 4of those selected by L the ] Colonists ; but such. was not the course purged by the Government. The founders looked to the value of the reserves as the true equivalent ; but the Uoverament recognised a different title by the treaty of Waitangi, and if we could recognise their tit c as proposed by Mr. Fitzgerald, much of the difficulty would be overcome. -He was not aware of a single instance in which, where land had been justly purchased, the Natives have repudiated the value of the policy of jwtiDg justly towards tkeia with

respect to their territorial rights. He combatted Sir. Fitzgerald's opinion of the legislation of 1858 tending to disunion — its object was the same fusion as that which the resolutions before them aimed at, ■•1,1 was shown by the memoranda of Mr. Richmond. The same law could not at once run over the whole island, it required the same foundation, and the direction should be the same, but it might in some cases be special, just as the law was in some eases special in Great Britain— different in Scotland to whnfc it was in England. If the same law was insisted upon for both races, it would tend to dieunion ; they could not understand our laws, which required a special profession to un-lerstand them. They must therefore have special legislation, and that le n nsla;ion must come from the Natives, based on the authority given by the Assembly as the Governor's plan proposed to do, instead of direct legislation by the Assembly as Mr. Fitzgerald proposed to do. The latter would be the better couree, but the former was the most practicable. There was no difference betwixt the legislation of 1858 and the proceedings of the G -vernor with reference to ths Kaipara feud — the latter was simply allowing the Natives to form a court to settle their land differences. Mr. Bell then defended the Governor's Native proposals from the charge of being constitutional dolls, to be broken when tired with, by a full disquisition on the Natives in their capacities of tribes, hapu?. &c, with a view to show therefrom that the objections of Mr. Fitzgerald could not bo maintained. Admitting that two different modes of dealing with the land existed as between themselves and the Crown, he acknow* leriged the fault was our own, for we had first puzzled the Natives, and then puzzled ourselves. The King Native was intended now to act as a bar to colonization. He could not say it was a blameable feature, it was a dpsire to save their remaining patrimony, and he could not suppose with Mr. Fitzgerald that millions of acres would be in the market by any alteration in the land tenure. If we gained their confidence land would be sold ; only that day news had been received from Auckland of large quantities having been offered. Mr. Bell concluded by expressing the earnest desire of the Government to carry out the principles of the Resolutions as a whole. They would advise the Governor to adopt the resolutions, but it rested with his Excellency to put them into operation when he thought fit. Mr. MOORHOUSE rejoiced at the prospect before the Native race which these resolutions opened up. He could not agree with Mr. Bell that these resolutions were in accordance with his Excellency's proposals. His (Mr. lloorhonse) plan for the Natives was — 1. To pass an Act authorising the preparation of a Doomsday Book. 2. To establish a Court for administering the law tempered to each particular case. The Judge to be a high minded English gentleman who would suit Ms judgment to the special equity of the offence. 3. To divide the Native districts into Provincial Councils, subject to the Constitutional powers and restrictions of our Couucils ; but before this could be done, Native title must be individualized, for the purpose of the franchise. Coupled with these Statutes, it ought to go forth that henceforth the Government will buy no more land ; let the Natives sell it to whom they pi- ase and for what they please. Mr. FOX, at 12 o'clock, moved the adjournment of tlie debate and House until 5 o'clock to-morrow, instead of 12, in order that opportunity might be affordpd for attendance at the funeral of Mrs. Rhodes. A discussion arose on the adjournment, when Major Richardson said that he should move an amendment 'o-morrow, whereon the dehate was at once adjourned.

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Bibliographic details

GENERAL ASSEMBLY., Otago Witness, Issue 560, 23 August 1862

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9,459

GENERAL ASSEMBLY. Otago Witness, Issue 560, 23 August 1862

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