THE PERMISSIVE BILI.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 3254, 11 July 1872, Page 2

THE PERMISSIVE BILI.

PUBLIC MEETING AT THE MASONIC MAM. According to announcement, a public meeting was held at the above place lout evening, for the explanation and advocacy of the principles of the above measure. Too attendance was rather limited, the audience—among whom w«re fonrlodiee—numbering less than 100. Mr J. Bathgate, M.H.K., occupied the chair. v The Cikaiiimax, before calling upon the first speaker, thought it would not be out of place to detain the meeting fur a short time upon the chief point at issue. It was not required that they should air their eloquence from any platform to prove the injury done to society by the indiscriminate abuse of the liquor traffic.—(Applause.) They were all agreed upon that point. The object of the meeting, as he understood it, was not to find a remedy for that acknowledge*! abuse in any extreme tncasi:rus ; but rather to acknowledge the existence of the liquor trade, and to support it if properly conducted. In a new country especially, they knew that if there was a crusade got up against all hotels and places where liquor was Bold, society would be dujorgaiuseil. Hotola were a necessity^ for travellers from the Provinces and neighbouring Colonies, and from the want of suitable lodgings such as wero provided at home, many young max in Duncain were driven into hotels,' there to> find a residence. That platform was on© upon which might meet every gentleman, •whatever his views might be, as hjhw conxmim ground, to iuterfcro to check ami remedy an acknowledged social mischief.—(Applause.) He did not expect that even those of the speakers who entertained strong view* upon the question of personal total abstinancc would trouble the meeting much upon that point; and he thought that both abstainers and non-abstainer?, ami he wight say respectable members of the liquor trade, might be found upon that platform advocating tho common end they had iii view. Now .'in ovil did exist —the indiscriminate licensing created an amount of competition and abuse in the liquor trade that loudly demanded a remedy. It was an acknowledge*! fact that the excessive competition of modem tiniea was one great evil that society had to encounter, and able men wero looking everywhere to provide a remedy for that excessive competition. Competition in the liquor trade called three hotels iu'o existence where one would bo quite enough ; and tho vendor was driven to adulterate his drink, and bo further endanger the health of bia customers. Anything that would remedy that excessive competition, and do away with abuse o£ drintt, would be a benefit conferred upon society at large. They could not look for the remady in the present tiyateni, as it ha<l been a signal failure everywhere. Wliafc the}' wanted, was a remedy for the present system. Ho was not going to enter into the details of tho remedy proposed by the supporters of tho Pcrmtesive Bill. There was one other remedy ho used to dream of in years past, but it had been tried, and it bad failed. He used to think rather than that men should meet and ga through tho sham of licensing and increasing the number of vendors, to the prejudice, not only of the community, but of tit oh© who had i invested capital in the trade, so having a tendency to bring down its respectability, it would bo hotter to have free trade—no licenses at all—and lot every man do an he liked.—(Hear, hear.) Well, that experiment had been tried recently in Liverpool; ami tho consequence was that crime and overy social niifcchfcf increased during three years to such an enormous extent, that the Magistrates had to retrace their steps and adopt tho licensing system again, imperfect as it was. Ho now thought that any mode of regulating the liquor trallic which limited, the numbers engaged in it—which gave them a strong inducement to conduct their business in a highly respectable manner— must be beneficial ; and he for ono would support any measure of that description. la the first place he would havo no addition to tho present numbers; then ho would weed out the rotten ones, by charging a higher license; and although monopoly was an evil, ho thought the true remedy would bo to give the present holders, who had invested large capital, a kind of monopoly, with stringent restrictions. Tho "Rev. I)r Stuart said that public opinion in our day was specially fixed on'the trade in intoxicating drinks. This was i owing to various causes. He thought it was ! specially owing to the temperance organisations of the last 30 years. It was perhaps owing to some extent to the bias in our time towards the consideration of social questions that there was this growing abhorrence to drunkenness. The fact was that if ono met any people, and had conversation with them upon this subject, they found them acknowledging that drunkenness was the great feeder of crime, pauperism, and profanity—nay, more, they would freely acknowledge that drunkenness was mainly traceable to the public-houses. Now, if those facts wore true, it lwcame them, as citizen; and as Christians desiring the well-losing of tho community, to enquireas to the fittest course of legislation to be pursued in ordur to remove the destructive; vice of intemperance Plaus had been proposed having that object in view. Some, for example, were in favour of suppressing the sale of intoxicating liquors, with certain exceptions, under responsible control. The abolitionists had been extremely active during the last 30 yearn, and had boon signally successful in their advocacy,- especially in the United States. In 1851, the State of Maine adopted prohibitory legislation in regard to> intoxicating liquors. The example was followed by Vermont and Massachusetts. All acknowledged that when an overwhelming temperance sentiment existed in a cony inunity, prohibitory legislation was productive of very iMmelicial results. The Abolitionists in America acknowledged tliat the fruits there had not been so gnat as they had expected ; still, wherever this sort of legislation hod-hart*-fair-trial, it had produced many beneficial result*. For,examplev those Skates' that had adopted it had rodacett the expenditure on intoxicating liquors from £10 to under £2 per head. This was a material result, and was very valuable; but the moral results con Id scarcely be. -laid before them. There were others in the field, as the Chairman hod-stated, who were in favour of free trade in regard to intoxicating driukit This party was small, thongh somewhat influential. For himself, he: had- no far' of the views of this party obtaining an extensive preference ; 'although they acknowledged that the bitter fruits of the common sale of iutoxicating liquors was pauperism, crime and misery. In California, they bad a licensing system which was almost equivalent to free trade. What were the fruits of it 'I That the expenditure per head for strong driuk in that rich Stater amounted to over £30, whereas in i.be American States that had a strict Hcensiagijystcrn, it seldom cost £10, while in tho States which had anything like prohibitory legislation it did not amount to more than £2 per head* A inajori'y of those hvire and in, \ America were in favour of a licensing system, not because they thonght it was immaculate, but because they thought iit was the best and most, workable system procurable. Strong advocate* of the - licensing systetu must admit that it required r viiiioa ; that there was room for restriction and limitation. Some would acknowledge that there ought to be limitations in the direction of withdrawing or taking away tho licenses of a large number of house* ; while others1 considered that the limitations should take the direction of shortening the hour?'for the sale of liquors. The meeting was aware that where public-houses were thinned out very valuable results ultimately appeared. They got quit of the causes of intemperance, crime, and to a great extent., of pauperism. In Scotland public-nouses were shut throughout the whote of Sunday ; an<l social reformer* saw that Monday cswea, which used to be extremely that '■ Scottish borangtaj were now vetfy ÜBUJOawKmif tfceyhad that system throughout .Greafc ..": Britain—if the houses wero ebufc eyeryevening at. 0 o'clock, and kept closed till 8 the* next morning a* well as on Sunday—it wji*

'•very likely that the restriction would tell 'V«ry beneficially on the country. No doubt the licensing system wa« infinitely preferable to free trade. They must not give nip the licensing system until they got something better. They fthould not decry their licenu'iog system ; it had not prevented infcemper- • ancc, }iut, a» he said before, it wa« hotter than free trade. The principle which ho hoped to nee established in New Zealand was tho penniftcive measure, and the object of th-emectingwasto bring permissive legislation before their notice, and to get them to do their utmost to secure its adoption by the legislature. It wax not ,1 u» w thing. In April Irwt Pennsylvania adopted the Permissive Mil; he thought it wan' there called the Option Liquor Law. .Some of the provisions of that law, it (ftr««k him, might be introduced here, no an tn save the advocate* of temperance unnecessary expense. That law gave to the citizen* of any municipality the means ■of recording thtir opinions in regard to the liquor tra Hie in their districts when recording their votes for their 'municipal councillors and mayors ; and in country districts the inhabitants wen; afforded the biime opportunity when electing their county <>flu;i;iK II.: hoped that the .Vcw Zealand farjimui' -nt would give them a Permissive Mill, a principle of whicii would be that tiie -advocat' h of temperance were not put to uu«eceH<!ory trouble and expense in gathering and colleti:»g thts opinions of their frtllowcitizens in regard to this important matter. There i*s no doubt that if thus Kill iv.hwh, it will be b''pi;fi«;inl on the side of temperance and ni'imlity in <:v<;ry district hi which it is ■adopted. iln looked to the time wh'-u prohibitory lc-i:it>iution would be demanded by tho whoio tyrnrmmity. He (lid not wunt it until hmh a time a* there waa an overwhelm™ ing nJftj<>rHy in its favour; till nineteentweotie£s« of the community asked for it. Ho did not wish the Legislature to he ahead of public opinion j and it tho Legislature gave them a pormimvo measure in advance of public opinion, he would not accept it. TK.did not want ifc to be like Duncan's law in Canada—a moral protest again«t intemperance, but one that had never been put in force. it was a great principle in these •colonies that the f<cgi«]aturo would grant j what was oidtcd by the people, when asked \ with anything like unanimity, and when it j ■was for tlie general good. He concluded by I proposing tho iiret resolution, an follows: —~ *!'J'hat the common sale of intoxicating drinks is pwtnetive of a great portion of the crime, together with much of the want, degradation, misery, lunacy, and premature deatliH in the Colony." Mr AuiX^ Jliijf.Siß fieconded the re»oluticn, which Ira* carried mianimourdy. The ltev. Mr Itohku'v moved the second resolution, tin foJlowu :—" That with the view of remedying the evils caused by the common Bale of intoxicating drinks, legal power of restraining, by a vote of two-thirds, the ißtsuo or renewal of licenses, Khould be given to those persona moat deeply interested, namely, the inhabitant;; themselves, who are entitled to protection from the injurious effect* of the present system." The reverend gentle/nun said that in considering the subject of intemperance, which had -excited ho much just declamation on the .part of those who had the int<rif*t« of humanity at heart, they were met at. the outset •by the questions, "Why look for a remedy -at all at the hands of the (Jovernmont '! Why not neck t<« accomplish the removal of intoxicftt'eu l>y the use of moral suasion ; by bringing an influence to bearupon individuals which would have tho effect of inducing them to abandon the use or abuse of intoxicating liquors '!" His reply waa, that they did not '»o much look for a remedy from the Govern - '"znent for the suppression of the use of intoxi- ■ eating liquors by the moderate-drinking portion of the community, but rather to obtain & remedy as affecting those persons whom it ■was impossible to persuade not to abandon themselves to the evil of intoxication ; because they might as well try to make a madman listen a« a man who had become the slave of intoxicating liquors. They asked •■ for the assistance of the Legislature in re•apect to those persons who would not be influenced by entreaty or reason—who, in fact, were in a manner led captive by their pasm'onfor intoxicatingdrink. in such cases moral -suasion failed, and therefore the only real remedy was to put temptation out of their reach.--(Applause.) It had been said that . 'men could not be made sober by Act of Parliament ; but was it not possible to remove the sources of temptation existing amongst the community, and which had induced a •large number to contract habits of internperanco—Boberisingthecommunity, in fact, by withdrawing those temptations through Government interference ? And then he might ..aek whether, if it wan not possible to make people sober by Act of Parliament, they • wero therefore justified in maintaining in existence institutions licensed by Government—institutions which had tended to make the people drunken? He thought they had proof that it was possible to increase • drunkenness by Act of Parliament, by taking advantage of the provisions made by i legislative enactment, and under which provisions places were established where drunkards were manufactured. If they desired to prevent the manufacture of drunkards, they must shut up those places, and so cut oft the cause and occasion of intoxication.— (Hear, hoar.) He also ventured to nay that t-the regulation of drinking by past legislation . bad been proved to bo utterly ineffectual and unsatisfactory. Tho evil of intoxication was of so dire and inveterate a nature that it was impossible by the use of mere regulating measures to suppress it There was r no-remedy but the knife—tho evil demanded excision. What bad been the result of legislative action extending over 400 years in Great IJritain ? Why, social reformists and philatj- ■ thropists now found themselves confronted by quite as alarming and devastating an amount of intoxication as over their forefathers had to face. He believed, therefore, that the best remedy for the evil would be found in the Permissive Bill.- (Applause.) He believed that tho passing of such a measure would have tho effect, to a large extent— to aa large an extent as any reasonable man could expect legislative action to accom- . plish any social reform—to suppress intoxication. At first, perhaps, it would be only confined to those localities in which the provisions of the Bill were brought into operation, but he believed that they would Jind that, as one locality after another availed itself of the Bill, a very great improvement would begin to appear in the habits of the ■community in* regard to the use of intoxicating liquors ; they would find that the cause -of intemperance being removed by the shut- • ting-up of public - houses, intemperance would, to a large extent, disappear. This was not a mere statement. Indeed, the evidence upon which it was based'was •■so ample as even to cause some little difficulty in making a selection. One of the "most striking proofs of his statement waß a report furnished to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, some fow years ago. 'It appeared from the substance of returns from 478 parishes in Scotland that tho following principles were established :—" That the absence of public-houses in a district is accompanied by au alraftst total absence of •drinking. That the presence of many public Jiouses is attended by much drinking. That 'the increase of public-houses is followed by a proportionate increase of drunkenness and debauchery. That tho suppression or decrease of public-houses or dram-shops is j followed by a corresponding improvement in the drinking habits of the people." If there were any weight in an argument derived from a comparison of various facts, lie believed that argument was a perfectly sound one which would testify that drunkenness was exactly proportioned to the temptations to drunkenness; that as they diminished the temptations, they would diminish intemperance—as they increased the teinpta"tions, they would increase intemperance. It ■was only going a step farther to say that if they abolished the temptations, they would, to a reasonable extent, abolish intemperance. Another proof was afforded by tho Lower House of Convocation pi Canterbury, which -determined,some' time ago to obtain some •reliable evidence upon the question of the <lrink traffic. A Committee was appointed, which arranged and forwarded certain foirms

of enquiry throughout England and Wales, not only to the heads of the Church and parochial clergy, but to the Magistrates, heads of gaols,'gaol chaplains, the constabulary force, masters of workhouses, and lunatic auylums; in fact, to every person who it was imagined could supply any information on the subject. These forms of enquiry were sent through 21 dioceses, embracing 32 counties, with 14,000,000 inhabitants. The result of this vast amount of labour hod been the production of one of the most valuable documents ev«r possessed by the British people, showing the real weakness of the nation, and the means of remedying the same. On this document the Committee brought up a report urging the adoption of. the following clauses :—" Firstly. The repeal of the liter Act of the year 1830; and thti total suppression of beerhouses throughout the country.. Secondly. A great reduction in the nurLber of public-houses throughout the Kingdom, it being in evidence that the number already licensed far exceeds any real demand, and that in proportion m facilities for drinking are reduced, intemperance with iL«t manifold evila i« restrained. Lust' ly, that as the evident and avowed object of licensing the sale of intoxicating liquors is to nupply a supposed public want without detriment to the public welfare, a legal power ol: restraining the issue or renewal of licenisetj should be placed in the bands of the person* most deeply interested and affected, isnmely—the inhabitants themselves. "—(Applause.) He did not know that it would lie needful for him to add anything to evidence so strong and invincible as this in proof of his statement: but he might mention two or three cases of a striking character which still farmer * -illustrated "sic ijohrtfto which he waa turectLug' atten- '' tioii. The ca*ic» to which he would call at- , tentiou were those in districts -where the : public-houses were closed in consequence of ; the several landlm-ds refusing to allow them ' to he established. They were as follows :— ' "Johnittone, in Dumfriesshire, with a population of 1230. There arc three public schools in the parish. There are no persons above six years of age who cannot both read and write. The report adds-: We have neither public-house, nor resident surjreon, | nor prison, mor lawyer—(laughter)-—nor j beggar. Saltatrc, near Bradford, in Yorkshire. Area.; Aboutauqnaremile. Population : About $000. Habits of the people : Honest, industrious, sober. Drunkenness rarely Been. Crime,very rare. Pauperism almost unknown. This has been the case for about ten years. Scorton, near Lan- j caster. As the village was not wholly in the | hands of Air Fiahwick, two attempts were made, to establish a public-house. But the people would neither go nor send to it, so it was soon closed, and the village is free from the nui»nnce to this day. Jfow, what is the state of this village? ..Pauperism is almost unknown. There has only l>cen one case of crime before the Magistrate* for twenty years, and then tho whole village felt itself disgraced, though the breaker of the law was % stranger among them. If a policeman happens to pa«s through the village, the children run out to look at him as a curiosity." Now, he thought he might calmly say that the incontrovertible facto to which he had called attention proved that if they removed I public-houses—iifthey cut off the causes and occasions of intemperance—they would, remove intemperance to a largo extent. But the measure would not only lie a remedial measure; it would be'a preventive one. Were there not places in this, their own Province, where therj were no public-houses at all, where they could find a quiet, settled, i industrious, sober community existing ? But what was there to prevent some low scoundrel going into fche midst of this qniut neighbourhood, and setting up a public-house, and dancing saloon, gathering in all the young people in the district and contaminating and demoralising tho whole neighbourhood by his action ? There was nothing to< binder it in their existing legislation. There was nothing to prevent any low-minded fellow—(laughter)—going into the midst of one of those communities, and by bacchanalian orgies destroying.their fve&ce and dissipating their sobriety. Give them a Permissive Bill, and these uncontaminatcd neighbourhoods would protect themselves. — (Applause. ) Then there were children growing up in the community, and were the/ to have no guarantee in regard to those dear children that they would r>e preserved from habits of intemperance ? If they did not diminish the enormous amount of temptation that existed at present, they would h& seduced and drawn into those habits of intemperance which had been perhaps the ruin of their parents, and which were the occwion of ruin to their neighbours. On behalf of the children growing up in the community, he would argue for the Permissive Bill in order that the community might be saved from the sources of temptation by which those chiliren might be seduced. The licv. I)r Coim-anu seconded the resolution. They must all admit that the question which they hail met to consider was an important one, affecting, as it did. the soc:al interests of every community. Although at first the question might appear to bear chiefly on the interests of a limited portion, he thought that if they considered its effects in manifold ways, they would say that the whole community was interested in regard to the mode in which the traffic in liquor was carried on, and it was simply in reference to the principle of restricting that traffic that the present meeting had l»cen convened. He took it as an admitted fact that this traffic ought to be in some measure restricted; that was freely acknowledged. After experiments in regard to free and unrestricted traffic, it was considered that it was essential to the well being of a community that there should now be some restriction. At the present time, the restrictions existing were left, chiefly, to the discretion of the Licensing Bench : and that discretion, with fow exceptions, was left entirely free. There were certain restrictions as to accommodation and character, but the grant principle of meeting the interests of the community was left almost entirely to the discretion of those Justices who might be on the Beuch at the time. Now, tho result of this, as they saw it in operation, was—-that the traffic had swollen to dimensions far beyond any reasonable necessity, and which no one — even the most ardent advocate for the interests of the traffic — would venture to. deny. As an example, 'he believed that in this city there were between eighty and ninety public-bonnes -which were regularly licensed, in add t: on to a vast number of bottle licenses; and probably, as waii the case in other places, there was a good deal of unlicensed traffic carried on which the law did not overtake. Now ninety public houses for such a community as this was. ho. .thought-,-to cay the least, excessive. With regard to up-country ~townships, with which he was acquainted, he might mention that in one town which ho had in view, containing not more than 300 inhabitants at the time when he received his information, not long ago, there were nine regularly licensed public-houses. ■It might be said, "surely there is a large outlying, population whose wants must be supplied,.'. out the fact was that there was no population near ; yet, on every road leading to that township, there were public-houses, even although they stood almost alone on the roadside. In another township with whujh ho was acquainted, containing at least double tho number of, inhabitants, there were eight licensed public-houses, in addition to a large number of houses, the occupants of which held bottle licenses ; and there was also a good deal of illicit traffic in drink. Another town he could mention, containing 400 inhabitants, had four or five licensed hotels. ! Now, he thought this.must be admitted to ibe excessive What was the remedy which !it was proposed to apply ? They proposed j that, instead of leaving the matter wholly to an undefined discretion which might be exercised one way on one occasion and a different way on another, which was open, at all events, to thc\ exercise of favouritism, if any Justices happened to be on the Bench who were amenable to such influences ; instead, he said, of relying solely upon such, an undefined and unsatisfactory discretionary power as that, it was proposed by this measure that the principles on which licenses

should be granted or renewed, shonld be distinctly defined. Ifc was proposed that the vote of two-thirds of the inhabitants in those districts within which these licenses were granted should bo taken in the matter ; two-thirds of the male ami female portion, for certainly in a matter like this, the one had as strong a right as the other to give an opinion. On two-thirds of the inhabitants of any district objecting to a new license being granted, or to a renewal of any license, he thought it would be a fair and reasonable principle that such licenses should not bo granted or renewed. Moreover, he would have that principle applied not merely to hotel licenses, but likewise to bottle licenses, which at present, according to the testimony of the Magistrates, caused a great deal of trouble to the police.—(Applause.) Now, as to the effects of such a measure an that which was advocated. He would ask the meeting to look for a little to the efTccts'unon these who were engaged in this traffic. There was too apt to be an impression that this movement emanated from bigoted teetotallers. He desired to say a word in the interests of those men engaged in the traffic, and be really believed that the results of the restrictive measure would be to benefit those engaged in the trade. At the present time it was evident there was an undue and excessive competition. There wjih in consequence, au objection presented to individuals of the more respectable character, and quiet disposition, to go into the trade, to ri«k their capital, and spend their time in a trade, which, to all appearances was sadly ovi-rrun ; but there were also many, not- i withstanding the difficulties presented by ' tittduo competition, \vho made tip their minus • tliat in opite of all mch competition, and un restricted by the scruples which more , H<rupuloiiß men might have, they would make the matter pay. How did they pro- j cctd t There was one township into which j persons could not <*o without finding one or two, or more of this class of publicans loitering about thestrcit, ready to »ei/e upon likely customers. There was no doubt, particularly in small townships, that trade was pushed by their personal influence, and in that way tnere was an excessive amount of drinking which, if there was no undue competition in the trade, might be avoided. On account of this undue competition there was a temptation to adulteration, and the effects of this had proved to be most baneful; and still further, there was a temptation for men of low character who wero brought into the trade, and found themselves pushed in this way, to "esort to very dishonourable means to increase their profits—in ways which it was not perhaps convenient or desirable to enter into Although he was not so fully acquainted with the practical working and practical life of hotels as 'possibly many of them might be—(laughter)—yet..he was not uuobservant of what was reported.in the newspapers, and many dishonourable things were done in order to make this very pernicious traffic pay those who bad embarked their a'l in it. This movement could not be considered as entirely hostile to those rc--Bp«!ctable men who were or might be engaged in the trade. The fact was, that although many imagined that in this trade every one prospered, he was told by a person who from his profession had occasion to watch very closely the actual working of the liquor traffic in this Province for the last eleven years, that he could only recollect about half-a-dozen among all the ho**elkeepers he had known in all parts of the Province who had made any thing like a competency, and retired. It was m addition a most detrimental trade to the health of at least some of them engaged in it. In one district alone, within twelve months, there were no less than three publicans who 1 died; and all of them were more or less j greatly injured from the temptations to which I their trade exposed them. Tfow, he thought if they were to adopt this measure, it I would be a boon to a large number of respectable publicans. Tho traffic would be more limited ; and he waa quite sure that the drunkards thera«clve»—those meu !'S£ere weak in their will and could not resist temptation, would rejoice at the diminished number and opportunities of temptation ; and he was certain that the public feeling would improve with regard to this traffic— that the existing laws relating to the traffic would be carried out more beneficially than they had ever yet been, on account of the loose public sentiment. He believed that on the ground of fairness to those. engaged in the trade, aud to,the community at Large, and as a measure, the principle of which was already recognised, and to some extent acted upon, the Permissive Bill ought to command their suffrages. He therefore had. great pleasure in seconding the resolution.

The Rev. Mr Sutubrland moved the next resolution, as follows:—" That this meeting pledges itself to support by personal aud co-operative action, the present movement for the passing of the Permissive Bill." The Rev. Mr Reid seconded the resolution.

Mir J. G. H. Grant Bpoke against the measure.

The motion was put and carried. On the motion of the Hon. Major Richardxo.v, a vote of thanks was passed to the Chninnau, who said lie should always be willing to assist in the promotion of any social reform.