BIBLE IN SCHOOLS

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIX, Issue 8868, 20 October 1914, Page 8

BIBLE IN SCHOOLS

ADVOCATES OF THE SYSTEM

METHODIST AND CONGREGATIOJS-

AI, MINISTERS EXAMINED.

The Education Committee of the House of Representatives yesterday took further evidence in relation to the Bible in Schools Referendum Bill. The Rev. D. C. Bates, cross-examined by Professor Hunter, stated that he was not a member of the National Schools' Defence Deague. 1 There were thousands in the Anglican community who did not approve of Canon Garland’s propaganda. The New South Wale? textbook had been declared by teachers to bo unsuitable- He did not think any teacher could giye sensible Bible lessons without raising religious and sectarian issues. , , _ „ In reply to Mr Malcolm, Canon Garland stated that his remaining witnesses would bo the Rev, G. S. Cook, Methodist minister, of Thorndon. the Rev. W. A. Keay, Congregational minister, of Auckland, and the Rev. James Patterson, Presbyterian minister, Christchurch, all of whom had personal and practical experience as pupil ■ teachers ■and ministers. ATTITUDE OF THE METHODIST CHURCH.

The Itev. G. S. Cook stated that the Methodist Church euppoi ted the platform of the Bible in Schools League as a result of long-established convictions and experience and a'careful and independent inquiry- In 1911 the larger of the two Methodist churches of New Zealand set up a strong committee to inquire into the working, of religious instruction in the. Australian, State schools. The evidence supplied to tho committee showed that the system had always given general satisfaction whenever tried, that difficulties had not arisen through right of entry or from teachers, that proselytlsm was unknown, ‘that there was hostility on the part of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, but that no serious attempt had ever been mad© to alter , the system. At the New Zealand conference of 1913 the Australian system was heartily endorsed. At the .'first, conference of the united churches con- , etituting the Methodist Church for New Zealand in Wellington in 1913 the Bible in Schools League platform was adopted by 115 i 'to 26 votes, and only one speaker advocated, tiro secular system. jLt the Dunedin conference in March last the platform of the league and a resolution ■to work for the referendum was reaffirmed by 95 to 14. "I have never met any non-Roman Catholic minister in Now South Wales,’" said the witness, "who did not approve the system. In New South Wales the question is regularly asked at our quarterly church meetings as to what public schools there are in the circuit and whether they are regularly visited by the ministers. I have advocated the New South Wales system a« the best solution of the question for the past 11 years in New' Zealand. . It gives .the Roman Catholic priest or myself or any .religious 'teacher of any denomination the same right of entry- as it grants to the Anglican, and I am not justified, in asking for more. 1} have had an excellent opportunity of seeing the system in operation, as I was born in New South Wales, attended the State schools as, a pupil, and afterward® sent my own boy to them. I have two brothers who are State school teachers in New South Wales, one with 24 years’, another with 17 years’ experience; and I have correspondence regularly with them both, and kept in touch with the inner working of the New South Wales methods. I have been a New. Zealander for 15 years, have served on school committees in the Dominion, and have a son who is a State school, teacher here. In 1909 I spent three months in New South Wales, visited the schools again,'spent a good deal of time with school teachers, aud made special inquiry concerning the working of the Sfcnpture lesson® under the. new syllabus which prevailed: since 1905.” EXPERIILnOE AS A PUPIL. . Relating his experience as a pupil, the witness said: "I began my school life in 1869; eo that my memory practically covers the working of the system. I attended three primary schools, and the three teachers from whom I received nearly all my Scripture 1 lebson® were Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, and Agnostic respectively. I was not taught any of their personal doctrines, hut received the Scripture lessons in a clear and interesting fashion. I; would .place them in tho following order as teachers of these lessons The Roman Catholic first. Agnostic second, and 1 Presbyterian a good third. ■ Amongst the visiting ministers there was one especially whom I remember who gave us ‘ series of addresses on the Lord’s 1 Prayer. These lessons occupied from thirty to forty minutes, and as soon as the minister left, the teacher, served out slates, on which wo were ordered to fill in l the hour by writing down as much of the lesson ns we remembered'. Ho never asked any questions, but ho looked over the slates when finished, and this acted a® a check on mind-wandering during the lesson. This was don© by the Roman Catholic teacher, who was a prominent figure at church functions, and visited regularly by the priest. Ministers' visits were always cordially welcomed in my experience. In. my case, I received more benefit from the teacher’s Scripture, lessons than from the minister’s teaching; but both sets of lessons were helpful and I have never known i a teacher who did not consider the ministers’ visits a help bo the school. There were no Roman Catholic schools in the localities where I attended school. Roman Catholic parents did not take advantage of the conscience clause in these localities. A few others did so. but the children suffered no persecution on that account. The lessons by teachers or ministers do not create sectarian strife. The children become accustomed in their school life to the fact that they belong to different denominations, and would no more dream of fightintr over these lessons than over anv, other. There was considerable fighting in the schools of my boyhood between one locality and another, and over personal grievances: but although I went to and from school with Roman Catholic children, we did not fight -over religion. The coming into touch with one another on the part of the ministers who give the lessons tells against sectarian strife Denominational loyalty is not destroyed* BIGHT OF ENTRY.

So far as the ministers' visits are concerned, the witness stated that the complaint on the part of the .teachers is that they do not get more of these. The strong statements of those whoso aim it is to speed up tardy workers are-proofs of the value of the visits and of the interest in the matter. To say that a text book of selected lessons is a mutilation of the Bible, carries with it a very wide condemnation. Sunday schools teach from selected and graded lessons. Parents who read the Bible in. the home seket portions suitable for the children. Ministers and churches ■ do likewise for their congregations. Although there are a larger proportion of Roman Catholic teachers in New South Wales than in our Dominion he knew of one Jew teacher in New South Wales, - he never heard that the teacher’s conscience was violated »by giving these lessons -until he came to New Zealand. ATTENDANCE AT SUNDAY SCHOOLS “T, am. surprised,” continued the witness, "to hear that Mr Caughley, with his many years of Sunday school experience, should, not bo aware, of the great number of children in New Zealand outside the Sunday: schools in the large centres, and of the -wide country districts where there are no Sunday schools. It is apparent that at least 70.000 children in New Zealand are outside the Sunday schools, and a large proportion of the remainder are very irregularly instructed. Tor these reasons all those who are interested in Sunday school work should be heart and sohl with us in the effort

schools, where it would reach those who are not touched bv the Sunday schools.” VICTORIA AND NEW SOUTH WALES.

As to the comparison of Victoria and New South Wales by Mr Caughloy, the witness referred to the differences of these two States in various ways. "Victoria,” he said, "was not affected by the convict settlement in any parallel fashion to New South Wales; convicts were never sent to .Victoria. None were sent to Australia after 1840, and Faulkner’s house ttho first house in-Mel-bourne) was built in 1835. For fortysix years prior to this convict® were poured into New South Wales and settlements were created of Uoket-of-leavo .men and ex-convicts, which left an abiding impression on. many districts, especially Sydney. The some permanent influences were not created in Victoria by sucb convict® as were attracted by gold rushes. These were mostly birds of passage. The gold mining in Victoria assumed the character of deep lead workings and quartz mining, on a very much larger scale than in New South Wales. This class of mine working was not attractive to ox-convicts, but it drew into these mining centres large numbers of Welsh. Cornish, and Scottish miners making a strong Puritan element; this is plain to anyone who is acquainted with Ballarat, for example, as compared with Now South Wales gold fields. They have never had a rum currency in Melbourne, as they onoe had in Sydney. Victorians pride themselves on their comparative frcfidoiQ from tbo evil forces created by a convict population. Different renditions of life and population- would account for the greater apparent success of .Sunday school work in Victoria than in New South Wales.” THE ONLY OBJECTION. "The only serious objection.” said the witness in conclusion, "comes from the Roman Catholic Church, with its denominational policy, and the more perfect the national system becomes the more vigorously is it abused by jhoee who are devoted to a denominational method. All that we desire is to strengthen’a national system which shall be in accordance with the consciences of tho majority of the people, with- due provision ' for the minority. And so we urge that this matter should be placed in the hands, of the people for decision. And there can be no rest m this matter until tho voice of the people is heard,’’' C BOSS-EXAMINED. In reply to Professor Hunter, tho witness stated ' that he had no actual experience a® a minister in charge of a parish in New South Wales. As .to the right of entry, ho had got his information from three teachers from different parts of New South Wales. There had been a tremendous decrease, in crime in New South Wales, and this was ascribed to education. The gaol population had steadily declined from 1885 to 1912. Inspectors’ reports had laid groat stress on the valne of the moral education given in the schools. Ho thought it was for tile people t 0 say whether teachers should give xiible lessons, despite any scruples the individual might ‘ have. They should not. however, be called upon ,to give sec. tarian or dogmatic teaching. . He objected to two distinct issues being placed before the people. Bible reading m schools was not an experiment,, but one that had stood the test of time. "What yosr want is a vote on your system and no other system? On the system that has proved. successful. It the people expressed their opinion that they, want the issues divided it would , this committee should decide that .the issues should he divided, do you think it ought to be done? I should be guided altogether by the opinion I maintained myself a® to whether this committee represented the people or n °"How do you find out . who represents the people? —"Not always by a Parlia-. mentary committee.’’ . ~ “How have you found out that the Bible in schools represents the opinion of tho people?”—"Because we have taken the initiative in this particular matter and as far as we possibly can; have tested the people.' "How many public meetings have the Bible-in-Schools' League held? —Jhave no record." ■ ’ "Have any public meetings been held?” —"I have no record of that. "Do you .think, there is any case In which you have held a public meeting so. that’you are justified in you have consulted the public? We have over 150,000 cards signed.” "Would you be surprised to. hear that the woman who asked me to sign a card said that there was a conscience clause for teachers?”—"l would think, it. remarkable." . . "Would you.be opposed to. giving j>. conscience clause to teachers?’—"l shouud be very much opposed m the first instance, because the Australian ■experience shows it to be unnecessary, and I don’t think it would be fair to the teachers.!’ ' "There is a danger that the bodies interested would make reprisals against the teacher “No, I think the dissatisfaction would arise not from, tile churches, but from the people in the localities.” _ "If the teachers are prepared to take the consequences and ask for a conscience clause- are you prepared to give it to them?’’—"No. ’ > "You want the system, and the teachers' conscience and the fairness of the system to those people who cannot go into it are matters of detail?”—"Yes.” "Would you be opposed to the adoption of the ‘Nelson system’ that would enable the clergy to visit the schools one half hour a week to give voluntary lesson, either acting jointlv or severally, outside school hours?"—"l believe the Nelson system is good as far as it goes, but my objection to it is that it is of least Use where most needed—in the back country districts, where there are no Sunday schools; It is of most use where it is least required in the centres. I also know it would lead to a great deal of difficulty in the school committees and local sectarian strife of a very bad character." A CONGREGATIONAL MINISTER’S VIEWS. Tho Bov. W. A. Kcay, Congregational minister. Auckland, having had experience of the Bible in State school® system as a boy in New South Wales, he wa® led to give a whole-hearted support to the scheme now before the people of the Dominion- The attitude of his denomination in New South Wales wa® one of unanimous approval of the Bible lessons given by the teacher and the right of entry on the part of the clergy. .“Congregationalism.” continued the witness, “has always set its face against anything in the shape of State aid to religion or interference with the right of conscience. IS the Bible in schools ■principle was not showing all-round fairness to all denominations the Congregational Church would be the first to oppose it. but because of its manifest fairness to every phase of belief the Congregational churches of New South Wales heartily approve of tho principles embodied in the Bible-in-State-Schools scheme.

• "A great deal has been said and written about the opportunity this Bible-in-schools 'scheme will give to proselytism. In all my experience in the above-men-tioned State of the working of the system I have never on any occasion heard of this being attempted. Ministers of all the free churches by common consent have arranged that all the children of the said churches shall be instructed by a representative of the ministerial association, so that each week that class of children represents, live of all the free churches would have a different minister to instruct it; but denominationalism was never taught in' those schools. I never knew of a minister or teacher attempting to proselytise. • Far from this arrangement being pernicious and open to abuse, it is bringing the free churches of New South Wales together and helping to create a better understanding in a way no other plan has been able to do As

is a better understanding between the various denominations in iNcw South Wales—Anglican' included—than obtains in any of the other States, and I am firmly of opinion that the Biblo-in-schoole svstem in responsible, for this breaking down of denominational pre--3 "Much has been made of the alleged injustice this'scheme will put upon the Roman Catholic teacher. I have never met a teacher who refused to give the lesson or one whose conscience was hurt by the supervising of the reading lesson The only complaint I over met with from a teacher was when the minister was remiss in attending to his duty in carrying out the light o£,enliy Cl "Thcro may be isolated where tho provisions of tlie Bible-in-scbools scheme have been abused but I have never met them. I am confident that the introduction of the scheme into this country, far, from being an evil will work unqualified good and will' prove to .be the solution of the present religious difficulty The committee adjourned until 10.30 a.m. today.