PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 705, 4 September 1885, Page 8

PARLIAMENT.

HORSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, AUGUST 27. The Speaker took his seat at 7.30. MAJOR ATKINSON'S RESOLUTIONS. Major ATKINSON, who was received with cheers, rose to move the motions of which he had given notice. He would like to ask the Government whether they would take one debate on all the motions, and then divide on the motions seriatim. ... ~ . The PREMIER said this was the most remarkable course he had ever seen. The leader of the Opposition asking him how to move a want of confidence motion. (Cheers.) Major ATKINSON said, in that case, the blame for loss of time would be upon the Go- ■ vernment. He regretted that the Premier, was so sore on that point. . (No .) . Well, he would be sore before he (Major Atkinson][had ( finished. Proceeding, Major Atkinson said he Should make an explanation‘as to the condition of the Opposition, m answer to the numerous questions why the Opposition, when strong enough to throw out every shred of the Government policy, did not put the Government out; and he, as the leader of the Opposition and of the largest party in the House, had been censured for not taking the initiative. He alluded to the remarkable position of parties, and the weakness of the Government which, he sai<J„-had gone into office with great promises, none of which had been fulfilled. The Treasurer, he was inclined to think, had an aching heart under a smiling face. The Gpposition was composed of the sup Sorters of the late Government, a compact party which had assisted the Government in passing measures for the benefit of the; country (he regretted they were so few). The Opposition was unable to put the Government out and assume the administration of the affairs of the Colony, because thev were numerically too small. I he Government pursued its policy until many hon members wbo had formerly supported them had de Sited them. The Opposition had had to consider whether, in the face of the fact that the Go vernment it had supported had been in office for many years, it was wise to attempt to pu the Government out. But they were willing to assist a Government formed by Mr Ormond or Mr Montgomery —any Government entirely outside themselves, which they thought would satisfactorily conduct the business of the country. The position was a very degrading one to the Government, that they were content to sit there supported by a party which said to them, no matter whether a measure they brought down was a pet measure or not—good for the country or not—that it should not pass if they (the party) did not approve of it. The Opposition he contended, had most successfully performed the duties of an Opposition by throwing out all the objectionable measures of the Government. They had not moved a direct no-confidence motion ; that would have been playing at politics. But they had done what they considered their duty by bringing down a series of resolutions which would direct the attention of the House and the country to the extravagance of the Government, and to show what the Opposition thought should Re done Tf the Government were going to tane tne motions as a want of confidence motion, then they must do so ; and the Opposition whatever banoened would not shirk its duty. -J-hese motions however, were not more suggestive of ““’confidence than the they had cheerfully taken back ; and he had put m tne fast motion as allowing the Government a loophole of which he thought the Government would willingly take advantage. He would ask the House to look at the circumstances of the formation of the present Government, whe the Colonial Treasurer came back to tne Colony and told them that prosperity should follow, taxes should be reduced, prosperity be restored, and universal happiness was to ensue. Before the hon gentleman was well m harness the confidence did begin ; they had a telegram from an auctioneering friend of the Colonial Treasurer, saying that a piece of land had been sold at a great price; and the Ministerial Press took that as JS indication of the sudden prosperity of the Colony. Yet only the other day that same auctioneer in an interview with a press reporter drew ‘ a verv doleful picture, and ftaishe'd up by sayins 1 Jhave that East and West Coast Railway qr

bust.” He (Major Atkinson) did not believe that Canterbury would “ bust if it did not get the railway, but he simply gave it as an instance of the statements of that particular gentleman. (Mr Holmes : He did not say that.”) Well, it was in the papers, and he (Major Atkinson) always believed vvhat he saw in the papers, especially the Canterbury naoers In ISB3-84, the Treasurer told them that the finances were sound; it was only muddling that had interfered with them. He would admit at once that lie was not the equal of the hon gentleman m inventing modes of borrowing. (Sir Julius Vogel : “ What about deficits ?”) He was coming to that. A o-reat deal had been said about the last Government’s deficit, but the Colonial Treasurer hid not told the House that arter borrowmg L 250.000 in aid of revenue-(Sir JuLius Vogel : No.)—had a surplus of only L 19,000. The hon gentleman knew that what he said was correct. The hon gentleman, after borrowing L2so,ooo—(Sir Julius Vogel : No.)—had simply a surplus of L 19.000 But the hon gentleman undertook to greatly reduce taxation ; to abolish that iniquitous impost the property tax, which hampered local industry, and generally speaking, was a most immoral tlx. But now, where were the resources ?* the ied°l Tn’Tetolnce “to taSSon! Everyone “knew that the answer was “ No, certainly 6 not.” On the contrary he bad endeavored to impose furt f h ® r , hp C overnirLiit hon gentlemen still supported the Gov eminent in order that taxation might be reduced. Not however, that the House allowed the hon gentlemen to impose this taxation-he was Sto say that; but he was talking about what the hon gentleman proposed to do. Now, the House by this motion, was simply telling the Government that they “ must ” do a certain thing In regard to education, the Government had promised to give them a better article at half the price ; but had they it’ (Mr Macandrew : You would not let them ) Well, he was sorry for the Government; The hon gentleman had promised to do many things ; but his promises were all electioneering pledges, and he had not made one attempt to redeem them.. The haa not hindered him at all; it had been willing to help him. Had the Government made any reduction in the Estimates ? No. He had shown that there was none, except m one class, which simplv meant taking money from one class to another ; and the Premier had failed to make those reductions which he bad said he would make, or he was not fit to sit on the Government benches. Now, in regard to the Public Works expenditure. There was no reduction in expenditure, and there was great increase in taxation. The whole policy of the Government was one of extravagance. Presently, he had no doubt, the Premier would p-pt 11D and say “You’re another.” For the hon gentleman was remarkable for his tendency to seek precedent in the action of the previous Government, and, if possible, go furthei. He would remind the hon gentleman, however that he should take the previous Government as a warning, not as a pattern. (Hear, hear.) Of course, he aid not think that; he was only putting before the Premier what ought to be that gentleman’s view. Whatever his (Major Atkinson’s) failings he had been punished for them, for he was now enjoying the cool shades of Opposition (though at the present moment he was rather warm). The Government had laid down the principle that public works expenditure should he limited, and had Proposed to spend L 1,500,000, as against the L 1,000,000 of the previous Government, lhe government's expenditure in the firsfc y ear o f the three million loan was L 1,400,000. During last year the expenditure was LI,350,000; and he was asking the House to say that the expenditure this year should not exceed L 1.000,000. In making this limit he was helped by the statement of the Colonial Treasurer that L 1,250,000 would come 111 for

during the current year. Thereto* the House was going to vote him L 2,600 000 He hoped the House was not going to vote that sum ; that the House had awoke to a sense of the necessity for reducing expenditure. It so, he would warn it of the consequences. Ihe total revenue this year was L 3,000,000, LI ,000,000 of that was from raihyays. and thenpermanent charges amounted to L 1,800,000. Then the country was committed to additional expenditure. Would the Treasurer say that the revenue would rise to that ? The Colony was sound enough, but it wanted to be treated by rational men, and the House would do well to set its foot down and say that, however necessary certain works were, they would have none of them in the present condition of the Colony. If the Colony went on at the rate of L 1,000,000 a year for expenditure how long would it be before their liabilities reached L 2,000 ,000? They must reduce their expenditure, and he regretted that he had not been able to name a smaller sum. Judging from an inspired article he had seen that evening, he would probably be told that it was impossible to reduce the expenditure to such an extent; but he maintained that it could readily be done. The Government had, since the beginning of the year, let contracts to the extent of LG,O 000 and[ the

House should have been informed earlier ot that. He held that it was quite possible that the Minister could control his expenditure to the extent he mentioned. He (Major Atkmsonl regretted that the Government had not consented to take one debate (he had early m his speech stated that, in accordance with the reply of the Premier, he was addressing himself only to the first motion). He ridiculed the y Supplementary Financial Statement brought down, the gist of which was that the sole resource of the hon gentleman was to issue 41, per cent, debentures to recoup the Sinking” Fund, and to increasing the property tax. That was the whole resource of the hon gentleman’s year’s work —of the work of an hon gentleman who had come boiling over with resource. Major Atkinson submitted that there could difficulty in reducing the expenditure. With six months of the year before him, the hon gentleman was only going to spend LI, , > and it was quite easy for him to contract, the expenditure to within L 1,000,000. E ven t oge the balance of L 19,000, they had to charge Constabulary men to loan, and to increase the property tax. It rested with the man to show, not by imagination, but by n«ra facts and figures, how we were going to meet the revenue. One point in the ‘ Supplementary thing” in favor of the Government was that the Constabulary was to be reduced by LIO.OOO. What did that mean ? The Government told them that that amount was necessary ; that it could not be reduced; yet, on this gentle pressure, the vote had been reduced, and he ventured to say that there were a good many other places from which LIO.OOO could be taken. In conclusion, Major Atkinson . said the time had arrived when hon gentlemen must look the matter in the face, and consider > whether they could sanction the increase in ; expenditure. He said that they could not afford more for expenditure than L 1,000,000. . He asked hon members to consider the posi- , tion of the Colony, and the extravagant borrowing policy of the Colonial lreasurer. L : ™™ and drink,” said the Treasurer, "Ilor tomorrow we die or, rather, to-morrow we • disappear.” After speaking for nearly an hour,

Major Atkinson concluded, amidst oheeirs, { by moving the first motion■ view thefinam were as follow: — i , nat ’ n , ° A Tr„. qp 0 f oial positiion °* th * fro “the Public exceed L 1,000,000 ; (*) that it ismot aesirabJe at present that the Governm Li j West take the construction of the East and. West Coast and kelson and West Coast Railways (3) that no new loan should be authorise d Uns session • 14) that one of the principal objects oi K c“, Auction oi the North. Hand Trunk ■RaiUvav being to open the interior or cne North IsW for settlement, and see™ that the Government has failed to a f r 0 a this ments for securing the land necessary for this purpose, no .furtheir and for thl completion $T tC™k% satisfactory arrangements have acres of the acquisition of not less than 500 000 acres ot land for settlement; (5) that. . . r not less than L 30.000 upon the the Consolidated Fund, as brought down, should be made for the year 1885-JG and. a reduction of not less than_LSo, ooo , 1886-87, without transferring th e am<ount now charged against the Cansolidated b unci to Loin Amount'; ,6) that the Sorernment be requested to take immediate steps to give effect to the above resolutions. , , with The PREMIER, who was gieeted with cheers, Sid the House and the country mus be greatly disappointed with the of the hon gentleman, who had adopted a most miserable mode of procedure m r i g ? • his motions singly in order to £ a< £ h ijfi ore the stead of placing his whole policy before the House. The hon gentleman now to bring his policy down. And what was h°s nolicv ? Simply that no one could govern the Colony but himself, and he had S iv t ! er t n to-night a re-hash of his speech in June last Was the Government to be bound to the speech of one member at Ashburton . They might as well say that _ the! previous Government should be committed to the speech at Hawera of the hon member for Jigmont. As to Education, he. .(the Premier) was the Minister for Education, and had he promised to reduce the expenditure ? The hon member, however, was a denominationahst, and had avowed himself an opponent of the present secular system. (Major ~ • No.) With regard to the policy of the: Government, the hon gentleman said that everj shred of their policy had been destroyed. It was true that the House had thrown out the greater part of the Customs duties, and on that the hon gentleman _who. , w .“_ a pronounced Protectionist, had allied him self with the Free Traders, in order to avenge himself on the Government. The Government had got the Stamp Act, the Deceased Persons Estates Duties Bill, the Land Bill, and the Hospitals and Charitable , Institutions Bill passed, aad they were try in to get the Native Lands Disposition Bill put into shape.” (Laughter.) Ib® "*? n . . man’s Government had not dared to bring anything down. They had taken Jack their i Native Lands Bill after the second reading As to expenditure, the liofi. gentleman, 1882-3, having liabilities of L 500.000, asked for a vote of L 1,810,000, and he spent L 890.000, and ended the year with liabilities of L 1,920,556. In 1883-84 he asked for the sum of L 2,000,000, and expended L 1,409,589, explaining that he had incurred liabilities of L 260 000 over the vote. He was then expending at the rate of L 1,600,000 a year, and, when the present Government came into office, they had to meet expenditure of over L 1,500,000. The Government set to work, and, at the end of the year, so far from increasing expenditure, they had so far reduced it as to bring it down to L 1,336, 000. They had not only reduced expenditure but also liabilities, and, for thenseven months, showed a reduction oi.LIOO, . He argued that the Treasurers action in record to the sinking fund had been most beneficial to the Colony. When the hon memher laid down the principle that the expenditure should not exceed L 1,000,000 a year, he had excluded the North Island trunk line : but the present Government included in its vote the L 1,000,000 for that railway, and other expenditure for defence ; and therefore he contended that they were more economical than the hon member. Did gentlemen think he could hoodwink the country into the belief that this cry about extravagance was . only an attempt to revive the Continuous Ministry. With regard to the position of the . Ministry, the hon member and others had insidiously circulated rumors about the Colonial .treasurer, with a view of getting into office again. # j- et the hon gentleman, if there was chaos again m the House would be as glad to take the Colonial Treasurer into office with him as anyone. (Major Atkinson said the hon gentleman was misrepresenting him.) The Premier said the i hon gentleman had attacked the Colonial Treasurer personally—talked of him as a.visitor to the Colony. The Government was just as independent of office as the hon gentleman. Did he think that he was the only patriotic person in the House ? He (Mr Stouti regretted that the hon gentleman had elected to move his motions singly, and thus not giving the Government an opportunity of defending their policy. When the Government went out of J i i i -wi-w-wvnrl nf ■cvhfcn n.nv

office they would have a record ot wnicn any Government might be proudl; and if they went out of office they should be able to show a statute book such as no Government had been able to show for the last five years. Mr MAC ANDREW said the speech of the hon member for Egmont was exactly similar to that formerly delivered by him in the House. He wished to move an amendment to the amendments, which was that all the wore s after “that” be left out and these. inserted. “That it is inexpedient that a discussion on the items of the Estimates should be taken m the form of a resolution ; and that it is inadvisable to raise the question of a new loan until the necessity for such a loan has been shown after the Estimates have been discussed. With regard to public works expenditure, it would be found, whoever was on the Government benches, that the expenditure would depend upon contingent circums • vear ■A t ho rrv s e r e and Coast S way °he thought it of importance that it a b waTlmttt on wfieh U “g™™derstood, w sfcron 0- and it should not "oSbls Wa the °hS. It Vpo»1 of the fourth resolution came with ' £ from the hon member in ' » “ai pas, action; and he knew very welk that to adopt the proposal of number w “ h ™ P f ere unless they shut rp shop alto Q etner. -tnere was no doubt these resolutions concealed the real Question, which was whether the hon member for Egmont and his colleagues should “bS If he saw any prospect of a Government going on to the benches> who, woffid be able to extricate the Coiony from its < cnlty, he would gladly support .t , buthe_Mt houses ’ Ho saw no reason for changing the Qo" erament, and therefore he made the preSe Mr m WAKEFIELD alluded to the remarkable nature of the speech of the hon member for Port Chalmers, who had arisen vernment supporter, and , it j on xhe lapsus linguae in speaking of the position.

resolutions proposed advocated, he argued, J financial reform, and showed how it could be j done. As to the policy of the hon member for j every one who knew anything about it “would admit that the hon gentleman had shown himself exceedingly unwilling to take action against the Government. I he Premier had charged the hon member with having moved- his resolutions singly, but lie knew that the hon member would have been very willing to have moved all the motions at once, and take separate divisions. He charged the Government with having withheld their policy in connection with the East and West Railway, when they had kept back most important .telegrams Despite the statements of the Premier, he heid thatthe present session had been happily free from intrigues. If party meetings were to be called intrigues, what should they say about meetings of members in private houses, where hon members privately diseussed public matters, and were forbidden to speak outside of what took place. There could be no better way of calling attention to the policy and conduct of the Government than by directing public attention to speeches of the Colonial Treasurer and the Ere mier this year and compare them with those the same gentlemen mad e iast year.. The Premier apparently repudiated the policy of his colleague in reference to education , and it stood to reason that if that were < do ?® “ gj' lective finance was impossible in the country. The Premier’s statement in reference to the tariff was not a fair statement. Freetraders and others in the House had allied themselves to oppose what they considered proposals which were injurious to the Colony. Sure the Opposition was entitled to some credit o public motives. The Premier had said, were the Government not trying to. get the Native Lands Disposition Bdl put into shape, but they knew what had taken place about that Bill. It was generally understood that the Bill would not be carried through this session. And was it not the duty of the Government to “put it into shane before bringing it before the House . That measure should have been tne last the hon gentleman quoted. The Premier after this fell back into the tu quoque style of argument ; but in the House that night it was not a question of what previous Governments had done in former years, but how they were to meet the present circumstances—whether the present financial conditions of the Colony] Hr expenditure of more than L 1,000,000 a year With regard to the Premier s remarks about the circulation of insidious rumours, it should be borne in mind that there was a great difference of opinion m the House as to certain sections Ol the Ministry, and that the Colonial Treasurer having been the propagator of the promises upon which the Government had been put into office, it was perhaps only natural that the greater feeling should be against him. As to the “ Continuous Ministry, he thought they should have heard the last of that, more especially when it was considered that two members of the Continuous Ministry were now on the Government benches, and that there was only one on the Opposition side of the House, unless Mr Ormond could be reckoned as a member of it. (The Premier : I was only reckoning from 1879.) (Laughter.) The present Government was as Continuous as any other. He urged the House t® look seriously into the matter, laying aside all the adjournment, amidst cries of “divide,” Mr Turnbull rose. 1 he uproar continuing, Mr Turnbull *at down, and the question had all but been put) when Mr MONTGOMERY rose and expressed a wish to say a few words upon. the ciuestion. He had been grievously disappointed, he said, by the policy of the Government. When the House refused to sanction the increase of taxation asked by the Government, he thought the Ministry should resign, on the ground that the House would not give them the. means they wanted for carrying on the business. At a meeting however, held subsequently, it was thought better, on the whole, for the Government to continue, and he was one of those who o„ r eed with that decision at the time. Uie meeting of Canterbury and West Coast m embers at the Treasurer’s house, disappointed him. JE e felt that no Government should do such a thing, and he could not support a Government which would. Then he began to consider that his position in regard to the Government was not a satisfactory one ; but when the Mei a gs proposal ” came down he concluded that he could no longer support the Government. He weighed it well, and gave it most careful consideration ; but when the motion to appoint a Committee to consider the East and West Coast Railway matter—as direct a want-of-confidence motion as ever was given—his mind was finally made up. At the same time, he was stron-ly in favor of the line being constructed, and pointed frS which had been given in 1880 and in 188-, tor its construction. When some of the supporters of the Govemm en t left the party they did not join the Opposition. They were free men to act as they liked and .he paid a compliment to the self - denying policy of the hon member for Egmont, With regard to the proposal before the House, he thought it would have been better if the mover had waited for the measures as they came down and taken the sense of the House.upon them. What was the position now of Mmself and other hon members ? He had saad that the Government as at present constituted Had not his approval, and he would assist in a reconstruction. He had giveni no pledges to suDDort the Government, but he thouent 2 should have some firty of Had the Premier or the Colonial treasurer Pent their pledges? They had heard the Premier that night adopt . the tu quoque armament and compare his actions with thSTof 'the previous adjnm, S trrt.o n bat £ Sake Tat Se G?ey Gff ment He had been in opposition to the hon member for Egmont for many years and had argued that that gentleman should be - relegated to non-official life, and the opinions he held then he held now. There was an immense strain put upon him now to have to vote against Major Atkinson. He hoped the House would not think from that that he was gentleman, and he did benches Major Atkintn » straightforward man. hon member » crush the extraragnceof the Gooernme, . premim

that they had got the hon member for Port Chalmers to move the amendment which he had made. The hon gentleman had no faith in the late Government, and it was apparent that he had none in the present .Government. The amendment, he thought, had a significant appearance when compared with the retusai ot the Government to taka the motions as a whole. The IPremier had not dared, to baice the vote on the whole motions. He did. not envy the hon member for Akaroa his position in this matter, and thought it should go forth to the country that that hon member was assisting to keep the Government in office —a .Government of which that hon gentleman had said that he (lid not approve. With reference to the Native Lands Disposition Bill, the House knew upon what conditions that Bill was read a second time. The Natives had supported that Bill, and they supported the hon gentleman, the Native Minister, because they thought he was the friend of the Maori race. He hoped they would not be mistaken. He should not be at all surprised to see a clause at the end of that Bill providing that it should not apply to the King Country. With regard to the Premier’s statement that he and his friends had circulafced rumors abont the Treasurer, and that he had made a personal attack upon the hon gentleman, he had not made any personal attack upon the hon gentleman. He had repeated what the Colonial Treasurer, himself said about his stay in the Colony. . (Sir Julius Yogel interjected that he had said that if he accepted responsibilities he would endeavor to carry them out.) He denied that he had spread any insidious rumors about the Treasurer, and would simply Say that his friends knew very well whether or not he had done such a thing. He asked the House to consider whether it was wise to carry the amendment moved hy the hon member for Port Chalmers as against his proposals. That hon gentleman had been put up by the Government to avert a direct vote which the Premier had not dared to take. If the Government were sincere, let them take a direct vote on the whole of the motions. Sir JULIUS VOGEL put it to the House whether the hon gentleman had acted fairly in saying that he (Sir Julius Vogel) was only a visitor to the Colony? The hon gentleman had evaporated for about a quarter of an hour on the subject of the Government taking back their measures. The Government understood exactly the action of the Opposition, and he mi"ht say that it was absurd for the Opposition to take any credit for assisting the legislation of the session. He could imagine, although he had never heard them, frequent con versations between hon gentlemen and Major Atkinson, in which the former advised the hon gentlemen to keep quiet and say nothing ; that the country would not have him; and that the best thing he could do was to wait and get members ifrorn the Government party. At last the Opposition thought they had got the hon member for Akaroa; and it must have been, a grievous disappointment to them to see the independent action of the hon gentleman that night. With regard to that hon gentleman, he might say that he did not blame him for the action he had taken against him, because lie recognised that the hon gentleman, believing that he ought to have occupied the position he (Sir Julius Vogel) held, should feel antagonistic to him. (Laughter.) The. hon member for Egmont wa3 pleased to think little of his (the Treasurer’s) finance, and said ir he had taken the Sinking Fund he would not have had a deficit. The . hon gentleman wanted to seize the Sinking Fund, but he was not able to do so; he had 110 P? we F originating. (Hear, hear.) Would the hon gentleman if he took office to-morrow propose to repeal the Bill which took the sinking fund’ (Major Atkinson : I never objected to it.) What did the hon gentleman mean by his sneers at the Supplementary Statement ? The Government found it necessary to bang that Statement in order to meet the views of Parliament, and. it was not an unusual thing to do it. He thought the property tax should be kept as low as possible, and mentioned that, while the South Island was over-valued, the North Island was in many cases under-valued. Any hon member who could add one and one together could see that the expenditure was diminished, because the -North. Island trunk line and defence schemes were included in the vote now asked by the Government. If the argument used by the hon gentleman in estimating his ■ expenditure was a good one, then the Government could apply it to their expenditure, and that would at once bring the vote down to the million. He emoted from a Financial Statement by the hon gentleman, saying that £1,000,000 a year was not sufficient, and that in the case of railwavs it was impossible. The Governments proposal this year was L 2,265,000, or an increase of L 68.000, which was made up of various votes. These items made up to L 56 000 over and above the L 68.000, and therefore’that L 58.000 was a saving (Major Atkinson : Oh.) In conclusion, he congratulated the hon gentleman on the greatest piece of assurance he had ever heard of,, in asking the Government to reduce its estimates by LoU,Uuu. It was known that the Government had agreed to reduce its estimates by L29.0C0, so that they were asked to take the. question ot LIOOO as a want of confidence motion. The House divided on the motion. Ayes, 39. Atkinson, Beetham, Bruce, Brycs, Buchanan, J. C. Buckland, _W". IT. Buckland, Conolly, Dargaville, Dodson, Fergus, Fisher, Fulton, Grey, Hamlm, H. Hirst, Hislop, Hobbs, W. J. Hurst, Johnson, Lake, Macarthur, Mitchelson, Moat, Newman, Ormond, Peacock, Pyke, G. i. Richardson, Rolleston, Ross, Russell, Sutter, J. W. l homson, Trimble, Wakefield, J. B. White, Wilson, K Noes, 51. —Allwright, Ballance, Barron, Be van, Bradshaigh-B radshaw, Brown, Cadman, Cowan, Duncan, Fitzherbert, Fraser, GarricK, Gore Grace, Guinness, Hakuene, Harper, Hatch Holmes, Hursthouse, Ivess, Joyce, Kerr, Lance, Larnach, Levestam Macandrew, T McKenzie, McMillan, Menteatb, Mont™mTrv Moss O’Callaghan, O’Conor Pearson, Reese E. Richardson, Samuel, Seddon, SmTth, W J Steward, W. D Stewart, Stout, Te Ao, T. Thompson, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel, Walker W. White. Pairs —For, Locke ; against, Pratt. On the motion to add Mr Macandrew’s amendment, ~ Mr PYKE said he should move, as an amendment, in order to test the feeling of the House, that the policy of the Government, as disclosed in the Public Works Statement,, is not satisfactory. He should take the feeling of the House on that point, and he should claim the vote of the hon member for Akaroa. He. for one, would not go back to his constituents without giving his. voice a S ai “®“ the Government and vindicating ms character and reputation. (Uproar.) He heard Otago members around him sneenng. Well, he was not surprised at that:. Tie never had much of an opinion about a y of them. They thought they would get a great deal of benefit out of the Pub Works Statement, but the largest item on the Estimates was LlO 000 for a private comInanw (Name ') The Waiuiea Plains Railway 7 Company. The hon. member for Port Chalmers had for years said that Otago was the milch cow of the Colony, yet to-mght he

was supporting a Government which perpe- ' tuated that wrong. , The House divided without debate on the question that Mr Macandrew’s amendment be Ayes, 43. All wright, Ballance, Bevan, Bradsliaigh-Bradshaw, Brown, Cadman, Duncan, Fitzherbert, Fraser, Garrick, Gore, Drace, Guinness, Hakuene, Harper, Hatch, Holmes, Hursthouse, Ivess, Joyce, Kerr, Larnach, Levestam, J. McKenzie, McMillan, Menteath, Moss, O'Callaghan, O’Conor, Pearson, Pere, Reese, Samuel, Seddon, Smith, W. J. Steward, Stout, Te Ao, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel, Walner, W. White. Noes, 39.—Atkinson, Barron, Bruce, Bryce, Buchanan, J. C. Buckland, W. F. Buckland, Conolly, Dargaville, Dodson, Fergus, Fisher, Grey, Hamlin, H. Hirst, Hislop, Hobbs, W. J. Hurst, Johnston, Bake, Macarthur, Moat, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Newman, Ormond, Peacock, Pyke, G. F. Richardson, Rolleston, Ross, Russell, W. D. Stewart, T. Thompson, Reid, J. W. Thomson, Trimble, J. B. Whyte, Wilson. _. , Pairs. —For : Pratt, Lance, E. Richardson, Macandrew. Against: Locke, W^akefield, Beetham, Fulton. __ , The question to substitute Mr Macandrew’s motion was then put. Mr HISLOP asked whether it would be competent to add the words “ and until the Ministry is so constituted as to possess the confidence of the House.” The SPEAKER said it was. Mr HISLOP said it was necessary for him, as having seconded the Address-in-Reply, to make an explanation. He had seconded that address with considerable misgivings, on account of the alliance of the Premier with the Colonial Treasurer. In years gone by, when he (Mr Hislop) was in the House, no one animadverted more strongly than the present Premier on those who destroyed party government, and therefore ne was surprised to see the action now taken by the non gentleman. The Government,. he/ pointed out, had expressed an opinion that the East and West Coast Railway ought not to be made a colonial work, but now m direct contravention of that opinion, they were proposing to construct the line as a colonial work in order to catch a few votes. He held, for this and other reasons, that the Government were not fit to occupy the Ministerial benches. The Government went on to those benches not to carry out, but to improve on, the policy ot the previous Government. But they. had blinded themselves to the signs of the times, and since 1870 no members had had their opinions so set aside as by this Government now. He would take another opportunity of explaining his views upon the question. Captain RIJSSELL said a great deal had been said that night about what had. been done in previous sessions. He thought it was not the wretched past they had to look at, but the horrid future. Hie himself was not anxious to take office, and if he were called upon to do so he should not hesitate to fulfil the responsibilities which were cast upon him. He had no opposition to the members of the Government personaUy; he did not care who ruled the country so long as it was a Government which would act on the principles he considered best for the country. It had been said that night that the hon member for Egmont was anxious to take office. He might say in reference to that, that the hon gentleman and the members of the late Government had been very unwilling to take the step he had that evening taken, and had been urged to it. If that hon gentleman went back to power, it would be at the head of a new Government, of members elected by the voice of the country to take the administration. Alluding for a moment to the “ wretched past,” he might say that the Colony, instead of having 1500 or 1600 miles of railway for L 10,000,000 as the Treasurer had promised in 1870, they had got 1400 miles of railways and a debt of L 32,000,000. He thought the only way to save the country from ruin was by abolishing borrowing altoS6 MrW. F. BUCKLAND thought the Colony had got into the position of a man who took up drink; and the end must come very shortly unless they ‘’tapered off.” They did noc care whether work was carried on or not; what they wanted was the expenditure of the money. They had got to face the'difficulty, and it would be best to face it boldly. Perhaps the Premier did not know that several of his supporters voted for his Government on one principle—Let us borrow all we can, and then make a good smash. He would point out to the Premier that many hon. gentlemen who had voted for him that night did so because they were interested in the East and West Coast Railway and in other matters. He could bear testimony to the unwillingness of Major Atkinson to move against the Government. However, the Government would be unable to carry out any measures of importance — they might be assured of that. He strongly advocated retrenchment; and, while giving the Premier every credit for his loyalty to his colleague, held that the House ought to teach the Government a lesson. Mr J. C. BUCKLAND said the Government had acted in such a manner as to forfeit his support. At 2.30 Mr BARRON moved the adjournment of the debate. A division was taken on this motion. Ayes 42, noes 42. The Speaker gave his casting vote with the ayes, and the Hofise adjourned at 2.55. FRIDAY, AUGUST 28., The Hon the Speaker took his seat at 2.30 , p.m. NO-CONFIDENCE MOTION. Before the debate was resumed, Mr WAKEFIELD made a personal explanation. It appeared that the hon member had voted in one of the divisions at the previous sitting through a mistake, he having paired. He expressed regret at the occurrence, which had been quite inadvertent on his part. . ■ , Mr SUTTER said he did not consider he would be doing his duty if he did not express an opinion on the question before the House. There was no doubt that they were drifting into a bad condition, and there was no knowing, if they went on, where they would end. Alluding to the seizure of the sinking fund, he pointed out that its first result was an attempt to increase taxation by Customs duties ; and having failed in that the Treasurer was forced to leave L 50,000 in deficiency bills, and L 20,000 for defence, standing over. Altogether our finances were in a muddled state Now they were asked to sanction other large expenditure, and he would like to know what would be the position next year ? This money, too, was not to be spent on reproductive works. . With regard to the East and West Coast Railway, he had thought that the vote taken on that question the other day would have convinced the Government of the fallacy of that “fad” of theirs; but in the Public Works Statement they found a large sum set aside for it. Criticising the Public Works Statement, Mr Sutter said several statements in it were the most foolish he had ever heard; and he pointed out its absurdity by stating that instead of people crying out for the railway in Canterbury, as a matter of fact that province had more railwiys than any other part of the Colony. He strongly condemned the expenditure upon goldfields.

Mr DUNCAN said the goldfields were the only place where the surplus population could go to find employment. He reminded the last speaker that in 1883, when a reduction m the Estimates was proposed, he had voted with the Government. He hoped the division would be taken at once, in order that the exact position might be shown. Mr TURNBULL ridiculed the recent panic in connection with the anticipated war with Russia. He alluded to M!r Sutter as a gentleman than whom no one had been a more blind supporter of the previous Government m all their enormities. He had supported the Crown and Native Lands Rating A.ct and tne Roads and Bridges Construction Act ; and now he got up and talked about the rum of the country. If hon members were sincere in their desire to reduce the expenditure, they would have fought the question on the Estimates, and not have been trapped by such a motion as this. The Estimates would have to be taken by any Government that took office. It had been said that no old members should take office if the present Government were defeated ; but he argued that if there was ever a time when experienced men were necessary for the guidance of the country it was now. It was essential that no necessary work should be abandoned, and if they stopped the system they had carried out for the last ten years, there would be widespread distress among the people. He alluded to the high character borne by the hon member for Auckland East (Sir George Grey), and contrasted that character with his degrading conduct on the previous evening, when he had forced into the lobby an hon gentleman whose intellect was weakened by drink. Mr Montgomery rose to a point of order, and the speaker was called to order. Mr TURNBULL, continuing, expressed his recognition of the ruling of the Speaker, and withdrew his remarks. With regard to the resolutions, they were undoubtedly deserving of consideration, .if they had been brought down at a more fitting time. They were deserving of consideration because they were . moved by an hon gentleman eminent in the country, and one whose integrity and honesty were worthy the highest praise.. There was no gentleman he would sooner fight under than that hon gentleman, and he hoped yet to be on the same side with him. He hopedhon members would unite to face the difficulties ; and that whatever the result of the present motions, a dissolution would be asked for. For it could not be of benefit to the country, he argued, to go on under the present circumstances when parties were so evenly balanced. Mr GUINNESS defended the goldmining industry as the greatest industry of the Colony, with agriculture and pasture, and argued that the expenditure upon it was wise and beneficial. He spoke in favor of the East and West Coast Railway, and pointed to the fact that the line from Brunner ton to Springfield had paid handsomely as contrasted with sham and political lines in the North Island. He avowed himself a supporter of the Government, and as having unbounded confidence in them. The House was counted out during this member’s speech. , , Mr J. W. THOMSON supported the amendment of Mr Hislop, entirely agreeing with the sentiment of it. He had never expected any good to come from the discordant elements of the present Government, although he had been anxious to support the Government. His hopes in them, however, had been blasted when the Financial Statement was made, and he should have to record his vote as he had done in the past—vote according to his convictions. He had given the Government a general support, and in some cases where he had been doubtful had given them the benefit of the doubt. He would rather support them, but he could not possibly do it. Colonel TRIMBLE fsaid in the present Government a strange thing was that one member was Premier, and another had precedence, so that it was very difficult to distinguish between the head and the tail. All the recent measures, however, had been the measures of the Colonial Treasurer, and they were those which had brought the greatest discredit on the Government. He submitted that the Opposition had conducted business as an Opposition better than any Opposition had done for . years. They were desirous of an expression of opinion, but they were indifferent as to who took the initiative or who was to get the spoils of victory. Their caucuses had been open, and no one had been bound to secrecy. The time for prorogation was near at hand, and the Opposition had found it necessary to justify its position in the House. ... Mr HURSTHOUSE said it was necessary for him to explain the somewhat anomalous position he stood in. Returned as an opponent of the Colonial Treasurer, but guided by certain pledges and instructions from his constituents, he found himself in a difficult position. In his humble opinion, the time for the attack on the Government was inopportune, and the state of parties did not favor it. He did not wish to see the good of the country thrown to the winds for the sake of party interests. What was wanted was an economical Government, and he should ask his hon friends in the Opposition whether they could, if they were victorious in this division, place a strong Government on the benches? They could not; and it seemed a waste of time to displace the Government in order to place a weaker Government on the benches. He expressed hope i that there would yet be a strong coalition GoI vernment, such as that which had taken place in Victoria. It was absurd to talk about putting men on the Ministerial benches who would not have a substantial majority. The present Government seemed to suit the times well they showed a wonderful condescension to the wishes of their opponents. And, if a majority of the House could control those hon gentlemen, why should they put into office a set of gentlemen who would be treated in exactly the same manner. The public works policy of the Colony would never have been inaugurated if the Nelson Province had not been led to believe that the East and West Coast and Nelson Railway was to be a part of it. The present Government had taken the proper course in proposing to construct that line. Mr TE AO was speaking when the 5.30 adjournment was taken. EVENING SITTING. On resuming at 7.30, Mr TE AO said this was the first session m which the Natives had had a say in legislation. He alluded to the threats held out by Opposition members to the Native members, to induce them to vote against the Government. Mr Buckland (Auckland) had said that if they voted for the Government and the Governmen was defeated, they (the Native members) would never come into the House again. Hamlin had also made some slighting remarks on the matter. He thought this was very wrong. If the question at issue was the merits ot the Colonial Treasurer, it would be a different question. He intended to support the Governm<Mr HATCH said it was evidently impossible to expect anything else but chaos if the Government was defeated. The whole question was, who should he in office and who should receive the pay. He should, his part, sup* port any one who would enunciate and carry

out a protective policy, but he did not think it wise to turn the Government out. He hoped a division woul I be taken at once. Mr LEVESTAM accused the hon member for Egmont of speaking on every other subject but the motion he had made, and of having allowed proper opportunities, such as the Financial Statements, to go by. (Major Atkinson : There was a long debate on the Financial Statement.) The House had been told that the Government made electioneering promises which they never fulfilled. He asked whether the previous Government had not made such promises, even in writing. They had promised the Nelson railway in writing to the Nelson members, but they had not fulfilled it. (Mr Horst : The. reward of virtue.) The hon member had got his reward—probably he also had his promise in writing. Part of the Nelson railway had been laid down, and had been left to decay. He contended that the East and West Coast Railway should ba undertaken as a colonial work. ' Mr IVESS said the attack on the Government had been brought down in such a way to catch votes by a sidewind,, and no one could fail to resent such an unfair attack, He defended the Colonial Treasurer from the attacks that had been made upon him ; and said in regard to Mr Montgomery, that that gentleman’s constituents were greatly in favor of the East and West Coast Railway, and that the hon gentleman was acting wrongly in trying to oust a Government which “ had shown such determination to do justice to the Colony. Could the House repose confidence. in the hon member for Oamaru (Mr Hislop) a gentleman who posed before his constituents as a Government supporter, and had come to che House as seconder of the Address-m-Reply? He complimented the Government on the Bills they had brought down this session. He opposed the amendment. Mr MOSS said he had supported the Government twice on the previous evening, and had given them a general support throughout the session. He did so, not because he was in favor of their policy, but because he did not know who was to succeed them. He held that if any one person was responsible for the present difficulty it was the hon member for Egmont, who had great opportunities for staying the downward course of the Colony. But he (Mr Moss) was gratified when he heard Mr Hislop move his amendment, because it meant the advent of a new party in the House. He disbelieved the rumors that that hon gentleman was simply a puppet —that someone else was pulling the strings. In the Government as at present constituted, they had in the Premier and the Colonial Treasurer two gentlemen diametrically opposed to each other, and in the previous Government they had two gentlemen just as much at variance Major Atkinson and Mr Rolleston. Therefore, with a view of seeing present party lines obliterated, he suppoited the hon member for Oamaru, on the understanding that he was acting independently. , , , Mr ORMOND said his name had been frequently used in the House without his authority. Hon gentlemen had connected him with sundry combinations and intrigues, and he desired to say that his part was this. It was proposed to him by Major Atkinson and by other members outside of that gentleman s party to move a want-of-confidence in the Government. No conditions were made, and he, having considered the matter, came to the conclusion that he should not be successful, and further, he had other reasons for declining. He did not think any blame attached to him; on the contrary, he was proud of the confidence reposed in him. In order to justify the vote he was going to give on this question, he would need to go back to the time when the present Government went into office. He was one of those who gave in his adnerenee to the Premier when the Government was first formed. The Premier was then pledged to the repeal of the property tax and substitution of a land tax, the reduction of expenditure and taxation, and the reform of local government. On the understanding that this was the platform of the Government, he supported it. He did not believe in Liberals, because he had found that they always forsook their principles when they got into office, and were liberal only in spending other people’s money; but he had the opinion of the Premier that the pledges would be carried out. Last session was there any proposal from the Government in the direction of beneficial legislation ? Nothing of the kind. Hon gentlemen who supported the Government were put in the position ot being called upon to support mischievous legislation for the benefit of rings and companies—the District Railways Purchasing Bill for instance. They were, in fact, dragged through the mud. The only other important measure passed was the East and West Coast Railway Bill, and the same remark applied to that measure, which had the bad element of giving large areas of land to outside control. Another measure the House was party to, was the passing of the North Island trunk line loan They were committed to that loan on the understanding that the Government should obtain cession of land for settlement along the hl The PREMIER Who gave that pledge ? Mr ORMOND—It was the pledge of the whole Government. Continuing, he said,, during the recess, as time passed, they saw. the unsatisfactory state of things that the position of the Premier was usurped by the Treasurer, while the former’s speeches dealt with social matters more than with questions of policy and principle. But this session, where .were the proposals the Government had prcmnsed ; where was the Local Government Reform Bill ; where was the land tax, the main platform of the Premier? What else did the hon gentleman get into office by? But the Treasurer had come down and said that a change of taxation was inadvisable ; while the Premier, when asked where the land tax was, said he was not going to. propose it, because he would be running his head against a wall. What did that mean ? That the Premier had cast off the great promise of his political life because he was afraid to face an adverse vote. He had thrown it off as a man would throw off his coat when he went to dinner, and with the same ease. Then, had there been any reduction in expenditure or in taxation ? There had been no taxation last , year because the Treasurer found an old stocking ; but what was his action this session when he found he .had got to reimpose taxation ? Did he put taxation back on the moneyed classes, off of whom he had taken it ? No. He proposed to do it by assistance to local industries, which those in- ( dustries immediately repudiated. He proposed to put it on the industrial classes, and at a i time when those classes were unable to bear such a charge, and that was the taxation of a liberal Premier, and if the people did not tell him of his dereliction of duty, they would be poor people. Then, as to the local government reform promised by the Government. First they proposed to appoint a commission to draw up a measure, and the House told them at once that this was not a question that could be referred to a commission—that it was a matter for the Government and the House. And how did the. Government obey their instructions? By bringing in a measure to bribe every local body in the country. There was nothing in it but large borrowing proposals, which would have caused a most

demoralising scramble. And to the credit of the House and the country, that Bill was rejected. This was how the Government had fulfilled its promises; and of its policy, not a shred was left. Yet there were hon gentlemen who supported them. He hoped those hon gentlemen would be able to explain to their constituents their reasons for supporting a Government which had been so traitorous to its principles. No words were too strong to meet the subject. The Premier had spoken of the record the Government had. He denied that they had a good record, but a miserable, contemptible record it was. They had done more harm than good to the question of local government. One measure which had been supposed to contain the germ of local government was the Hospitals and Charitable Institution Bill, which was an attempt by the Government to shirk its responsibilities. His opinion -was that that was not local government, but he gave the hon gentleman credit tor thinking that it was. But the Government had abandoned the whole policy of the Bill; and he pitied them for the facility with which their policy was destroyed. Of that miserable and contemptible Bill nothing remained ; the customs proposals were abandoned ; and their land tax was not proposed. And there was their policy gone and obliterated. Yet the Government still sat there. An incident in connection with the Government sitting there, was that the Government supporters held a meeting, called by the Government whips, and formed themselves into a committee of safety. They ordered the Government to abandon its policy, and gave them till 5 o’clock that afternoon to consider it. But they did not want till 5 o’clock ; half an hour was enough. And they swallowed it all. The Government had, in fact, brought responsible Government into contempt, from which it would be long before it would be free. If Government was to be by committee, could not a better committee than that be got ? He did not believe the Premier was the author of the customs tariff and other measures ? But the hon gentleman had been dominated. He was not strong enough to resist the powerful mind of the Treasurer. These were the reasons which had led him to give up his allegiance to the Government, and he refused to believe that the state of parties compelled the House to support or keep in office a Government which abandoned its principles in this manner. The House was being carried away .when it said that the Government, with all its faults, should remain in office. He understood that the Government had a small majority to enable them to stick there. But how would they remain there ? Did they think he would remain under such conditions ? Many hon members would go into the_ Government lobby with an unclean thing sticking out of their pockets —they would support the Government for the sake of what they could get. If to-morrow they could poll th 9 people, what would be the result! To sweep the Government awav from the benches. (The Pkemter. : “ No.”) He understood that the Government had threatened to go to the country. Good God! fancy a Government like that going to the country—naked—without principle or policy. But what would they do ? They would say “here’s a job for you.” As to the present proposals of the Government, their proposed expenditure for the year, he might say, was more than it ought to be. With respect to the railways, he disagreed with the proposal to give the management to Boards. He recognised that was a proposal which the House should consider, but the Minister brought down no proposal at all. He left the railways under the present bad management. Here in Wellington they heard of carts running the trains, and taking the traffic from it. Yet they were to go back to their constituents and say they had done nothing to remedy the management. He still thought, as he had thought years ago, that it would be advisabie to let at least one section of railway to private management as an experiment. There was no time this session, however, to discuss that now, and he considered that every word of the Public Works Statement, except, perhaps, that part in reference to the Bast and "West Goast Bail way, might have been said in the first week, in the session. With regard to Native administration, he must say that he thought the Minister’s conduct was most mischievous, and that whoever took office after him would find great difficulty in bringing the administration back to as good a condition as that in which Mr Bryce left it. The hon gentleman was leading the Natives astray, and buoying them up with false hopes. The Treasurer had said this was not a big question—not a question of policy. Was not 12,000,000 acres of land a big question ? He (Mr Ormond) affirmed that the vote of the House on the North Island Trunk Line last session was on the distinct understanding that land was to be acquired along the line. Yet nothing had been done. The greatest chief in that vicinity, Wahanui, had told him the other day that he never heard of any purchase of land till it was mentioned by him. That statement waa in the form of evidence before a committee, and would be in the possession of the House in a few days. .The Minister actually went among the Natives, asking permission to take this line through the district —asking for that which his predecessor had done. What did Wahanui say when he heardjwhat was the object line? He said, “ Take away your line, I don’t want itand when asked what, in his opinion, the line was wanted for, said, “Bor you [people to go from this place to that.” In conclusion, Mr Ormond said he would vote for the amendment by Mr Hislop, on the ground that the Government had utterly failed in their, pro* mises, and utterly failed to make provision for financial necessity. (Cheers.) The PREMIER said the speech of the.hon gentleman reminded him of an old aphorism, “ Bitter are the woes of a disappointed man.” The hon gentleman had been waiting to deliver this speech . for a week. The hon gentleman made believe that he was a supporter of the Government. What did he do last session when a Government was formed pledged to a land tax ? Voted against it. He would tell the House a little of the history of the hon gentleman. In Hawkes Bay many years ago he had no influence beyond that which the assistance of Sir Donald McLean gave him. He was first brought into prominence by the removal of the Native agent from the East Coast. What were the hon member’s principles ? Let him say what principle he had ever fought for. He had supported the Property Assessment Act, and the Cover mnent had brought it into law. The hon gentleman talked about local government, local government ; and did anyone know now what he wanted by that, or by the cry for a land tax ? He wanted road boards, in order that large property-holders might control the districts. He would not have a land tax to-morrow. He wanted road boards, that could tax as they liked. Why did the hon gentleman leave the Government: He had misstated the case of the caucus. He (the Premier) told the meeting that there were three courses open; and one was to resign ; and the-hon gentleman was one of the first to ask them to remain in office. The hon gentleman's real objection came out towards the end of the speech —he could not keep it down —it was the Native Land Bill that he -was

opposed to, because it put a stop to land rings. He wanted the Maori lands and the Crown lands to be sold j those were his principles. Why, even hon members who had been opposed to the Government could not “stomach” Mr Ormond leading, carrying the banner of a land tax and land sales. Why did the hon gentleman oppose the Charitable Aid Bill ? Because it rated large properties, and. that did not suit the hon gentleman. That Bill was an honest effort, although it might not be perfect. The Government were deserving of credit for bringing it forward. The hon gentleman charged the Government with their action in reference to the district railways. But he himself introduced the Bill to construct the railways ; and he (the Premier) would like to know how the Government were playing into the hands of companies in relieving people from the burdens cast upon them by that Act. The hon member’s whole speech was intended for the people of the South Island, to advertise the hon member as the new leader of a party. As to the management of railways : Were there not mismanagements when the hon gentleman was Minister for Public Works? The Government had been enabled this year to get 10s per cent on the cost of' construction by their good management. People might complain of the rates, but our rates in this Colony were lower than those of most countries, i and in the papers of England many more complaints would be found of the management than here. The hon member believed in revolution. He was one of those who voted for the “resolution” in 1875 —the abolition of provinces. He would have a resolution now to get hold of the Native lands. But as to local government it was necessary to proceed step by step, “slow, and by degrees,” and the Government had adopted that idea. He had had at the beginning of the session a consolidating Bill in reference to counties, but he had thought that it could not be got through this session, and therefore he brought in a small Bill. He contended that the Government had acted in the best way possible, and he challenged hon members who were always speaking of local governmsnt to produce their proposals. With regard to taxation, the Government practically exempted from its property tax the improvements of the small farmer and the small manufacturer. (Mr Eishek : And tax the savings of every man who is insured.) It was ridiculous to allow foreign companies to come into the Colony and drive colonial companies away. The Government’s PropertyTax Assessment Bill was a near approach to a land tax, and the hon member would be found opposing it. In conclusion, the Premier said the hon member was aggrieved because he had no.following ; but he could tell the hon gentleman he would not get a following until he showed more sympathy for the people, and showed a more colonial, nay, a more humanitarian view. Wit regard to the North Island Trunk line, the hon gentleman stated what was not the truth when he.said the Government had acquired no land along L the line. One chief had given 1,500,000 acres. (Name !) Major Kemp. (Major Atkinson : On behalf of whom ?) On behalf of himself and his tribe. He denied that a pledge had been given before the vote was taken on the North Island railway loan that land should be got for settlement before the loan was raised. There was no pledge whatever, but it was hoped that the Natives would cede the land. The motion now made was almost unusual one. What party was to go in if the Government were defeated ? What were ■ their principles ? He admitted that the Government had been placed in this position, that - it was not found possible to carry on with a majority. But how was the business of the country to be carried back again ? The Government had done its best to act in the interest of the country. The hon member had talked about members going to their constituents ; but the hon gentleman had not met his constituents during the recess. He (the Premier) had never been afraid to meet his constituents, and he would not be afraid to go to the poll with the hon gentleman in Napier. He told the House the “ distinction between the hon member and himself,” by which he showed that Mr Ormond was like a dismasted ship, and that of the Premier, whatever his failings, it could not be said that he had acted for personal aggrandisement or for other than the good of the country. Mr Stout concluded amidst cheers. Mr SMITH, who followed, made an attack upon Mr Ormond’s local governing policy. He supported the Government, and approved of their measures. He considered the Land Bill was an exceedingly good measure, and accepted the Government’s Property Assessment Bill as’ a step towards a land tax. •Sir GEORGE GREY thought it almost impossible to prevent a feeling of depression and melancholy that in sueh a debate as this an hon member who might attack the policy of the Government, found himself attacked, and his whole life dragged into personal abuse. Such conduct, he must say, was not commendable, . and he regretted to find such important matters treated in a trifling manner. The Premier had told the House that it was the Government’s attempts to benefit the country that made it obnoxious, and the hon gentleman had specially mentioned the Native Lands Disposition Bill. Eor his part, however, he thoughtthat the Government had introduced measures which, insteadjof’breaking up, played into thehands of companies and rings. He disapproved of the Native Lands Disposition Bill as doing- * an injustice to everyone in the Colony. That Bill, in validating titles, went back any number of years, and secured occupation notwithstanding any other law —which meant that all previous conditions should be removed, and that unlawful deeds in the past should be made good. There, he contended, a great injustice was being done, and that it was a wrong thing for the Government to waste time in personal attacks instead of explaining and defending their policy. He believed the Government would have done better if they had brought down a provision that no member of Parliament benefited by the Bill should vote upon it. The Premier laid down the principle that reforms should be made by gradual advances; and after repeating the words unnecessarily, _ho went on to say that, therefore, it was not wise to propose a land tax. The PREMIER: There was no property ta lir GEORGE GREY : Was the property tax put on all at once ? The PREMIER : Yes. Sir GEORGE GREY: Could -it be taken • off at once ! The PREMIER : No. Sir GEORGE GREY said the whole tone of the Premier was that of an advocate. His whole tone that night was, “ Gentlemen of the jury.” He alluded to a lecture delivered by the Premier at Napier on ‘‘True Democracy,” where a resolution was carried to the effect that it was hoped that Vogelism would be extirpated from the Colony. The PREMIER : No. Sir GEORGE GREY: The advocate speaks ! A discussion ensued, in the course of which it appeared that the sentiment in [reference to Vogelism had been spoken by a gentleman at the meeting. Sir GEORGE GREY continuing, submitted that there never was a better House than this ; never were there so many young men anxious

to. do good as at present. The Premier had lectured other persons that night on sympathy with fellow men ; but what had he done in that way? Why did he not stand forth the leader of the great Liberal party, instead of allying himself with the Colonial Treasurer. The hop gentleman had reached his present position ,by preaching throughout the Colony doctrines which he had not followed when he got into office. These doctrines die lion gentleman believed in now. His conscience smote him then. (Laughter.) He may smile now, but I see a pallor in his cheek. Let the hon gentleman step forward that night and join the party his heart was with. Was it not better to do that than to sit there for the benefit of companies ? The Premier had asked what party there was in the House to take office. He could tell the hon gentleman that there was a strong party in the House, of which he himself (the Premier), the Minister of Lands, the Minister of Justice, and the Minister of .Mines were strong component parts. The Premier wound up in a theatrical way by making a contrast between himself and the member for Napier. He gave a very flourishing account of himself, and when he finished there was great commiseration for the ship without a compass, and great applause for the hon member who had done 3uch mighty things. The hon gentleman, on another occasion, likened himself to a buoy, anchored to a rock of principle, presenting a face to all sides —not double-faced, but many faced, bobbing about, washed by all tides, but still upright. Let the hon gentleman simulate the mariner who ventured far out to sea, not a lubberly buoy, bobbing up and down. (Cheers.) Mr BALLANCE, after sarcastically alluding to the last member’s remarks'as a “ statesmanlike speech,” contended that the hon gentleman had himself been the destroyer of the Great Liberal Party, of which he might have been a leader. They had had that night, a speech bn the Native Lands Disposition Bill which ought to have been made on the second reading of that measure. The whole principle of the Bill was not attacked—only provisions rightly made to meet exceptional cases. The criticism of the hon gentleman was founded on the grossest misrepresentation he had heard in the House. That Bill provided that the land should be sold in the fairest possible way—not for injustice to the Colony, but for justice to those who had ample rights, but not by law. The hon gentleman might talk as much as he pleased about statesmanship, but he very seldom gave the House the benefit of the statesmanship he himself possessed. The hon gentleman talked in glowing terms and sentiment, but where was the practical result of his efforts ? That was how a man should be judged. The charge of insincerity the hon gentleman made against the Government he hurled back with interest. What had the Government done ? They had done everything to consider every question affecting the interest of the Colony, and they could not be accused of insincerity. With regard to taxation, he held that the Customs increase introduced by the Government was necessary, and the destruction of the taiiff was one of the greatest mistakes the House had ever made. It had been said that the Government should have resigned after that tariff was rejected. Well, he did riot say they ought not to have resigned. There was a strong inclination on the part of the Government to do so, and they were only prevented by the unanimous wishes of their party that they should remain in office. With regard to the speech of the hon member for Napier, Wahanui had not repudiated the idea of selling land along the line of railway. The Government had not pledged themselves to obtain land for settlement along the trunk line before the line was commenced ; but he could tell the House that the Government was acquiring a very large amount of land along the line. His own idea was that before the line was completed they would have 2,000,000 acres of land. But it was absurd to say that the land must be acquired before the line was started to do so would be to create distrust among the Natives. He felt certain that the iron heel policy would not do with the Natives. Where were the Native troubles now? (Major Atkinson : At Rotorua.) He believed there had never been a more successful Native policy than his. It had been said that the hon member for Waitotara left Native affairs easy into his hands. (Hear, hear.) How was that ? The liberty of the subject was denied to the Natives at that time j they were under surveillance. The Natives were in favor of the policy of the present Government, and he felt sure that if that policy was continued, still greater results would be obtained. Mr FISHER said the word Liberalism covered a multitude of sins, if what the hon gentleman said was true. He contended that the House and the country would have had much greater respect for the Government if they had resigned when their Customs tariff was thrown out. The Premier had said that the hon member for Napier had no sympathy with the people, but he (Mr Fisher) claimed an equal sympathy with the people with the Premier, so far as he was known to them. And he said the Government, by their proposals for taxation, had forfeited the sympathy of the people. The House had endorsed the Public Works policy of the Government. How ? By four votes —the four votes of the Native members, . whose constituents were exempt from taxation. He had been in the House—not on the floor of it all the time—for 17 years, and he had never seen a Government so thoroughly defeated at all points as this Government. He held that the Government was unable to meet an embarrassed position, and never, in the face of such a critical position had he seen such profligate proposals for expenditure as the proposals of this Government. Great regret was felt at the probable return of the Continuous Ministry to the benches but on the Government benches now there were the Treasurer and the Public orks Minister —two of the most continuous of the Continuous Ministry. Mr Fisher alluded to the conduct of the hon member for Egmont, who had, he said, offered to assist anyone to form a Government, if only an administrative Government; and he (the speaker) held that an administrative Government would be far better than the fervid visionary ideas of the present Government. The Premier, while putting a tax on the savings of poor men, talked of “sympathy with the people.” Then something was said about “the economy of the Government. Why the whole policy of the Government had been an unbroken sequence of extravagance, and it was extremely fortunate for the Government that the Opposition had been strong enough to throw out many of its proposals. Then the Premier wanted to know who was to succeed the Government. It would be wise therefore for intending members of a new Government to send in their names to the Premier for approval. He was told that this amendment would be negatived, but whether or not the House would have discharged its duty, and would receive the gratitude of the country. Mr PYIE likened the speech of the Premier to the beating of a drum—plenty of noise, but not much melody. They had heard in the course of this debate subdued threats of a dissolution, of which he hoped no one was afraid ; and also they had heard a great deal

of the old question—old as the days of Noah—who is to succeed us ? Why, he looked round and he saw material for the formation of half - a - dozen Ministries, perhaps better than the present one. The Premier’s speech, in mining phraseology, would not “ pan out a pennyweight to the dish.” And when the speech of that hon gentleman and that of Mr Ormond appeared side by side in Hansard, it would be seen that the latter would pan out two ounces to the dish. He hoped that the House would come to a conclusion at once, more especially as the numbers were said to be known. It was true that some hon members had changed their minds two or three times during that day, but then the Opposition were not in such a good condition to obtain votes as the Government. Dr NEWMAN censured the Government for their action in connection with the North Island Trunk line. He ridiculed the Premier’s remarks about sympathy with the people. The policy of 1870 had been renewed in 1884, with this difference, that it was more concentrated. He pointed out at the same time that the circumstances were mose favorable in 1870 than now. He sketched the events which led up to Sir Julius Vogel going Home as Agent-General in 1876, and pointed out that very similar circumstances were now existing, The present Agent-General would resign at the end of this year, and he left hon members to prophecy what would follow. The House divided on the amendment of Mr Hislop, “and until the Ministry is so constituted as to possess the confidence of the House.” Ayes, 39.—Atkinson, Barron, Beetham, Bruce, Bryce, J. C. Buckland, W. F. Buckland, Conolly, Dargaville, Dodson, Fergus, Fisher, Fulton, Grey, Hamlin, Hislop, Hobbs, W. J. Hurst, Johnston, Lake, Locke, Macarthur, Mitchelson, Moat, Montgomery, Moss, Newman, Ormond, Peacock, Pyke, G- F. Richardson, Ross, Sutter, T. Thompson, J. W. Thomson, Trimble, Wakefield, J. B. Whyte, Wilson. Noes, 43. Allwright, Ballance, Bevan, Bradshaigh - Bradshaw, Brown, Cadman, Cowan, Duncan, Fitzherbert, Gore, Grace, Guinness, Hakuene, Harper, Hatch, Holmes, Hursthouse, Iress, Kerr, Lance, Larnach, Levestam, J. McKenzie, McMillan, Menteath, O’Callaghan, O’Conor, Pearson, Pere, Pratt, Reese, E. Richardson, Samuel, Seddon, Smith, W. J. Steward, Stout, Te Ao, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel, Walker, W. White. Pairs. —Fer Russell, Buchanan, Hirst, Rolleston ; against—Fraser, Joyce, Garrick, Macandrew. Prolonged applause followed the declaration of the result of the division. Mr Macandrew’s amendment was then inserted on the-voices. The House then adjourned till Monday evenat 7.30. MONDAY, AUGUST 31. The Speaker took his seat at 7.30 p.m. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented. NOTICES. Sir GEORGE GREY to introduce a Bill to reduce {the number of votes] which county electors may record at County Council elections. Sir JULIUS YOGEL to introduce the Public Revenues Bill, 1885. NORTH ISLAND TRUNK RAILWAY. In answer to Mr Cadman, the MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said several tenders had been received for the Hunterville contract of the North Island Trunk Railway, but the Government had not yet seen fit to let the contract. HOSPITAL COMMISSION. Mr G. F. RICHARDSON asked the Governirient, without notice, whether local Press reporters were allowed to be present at meetings of the Wellington Hospital Commission. The PREMIER required that notice should be given. Mr RICHARDSON reminded the Premier that the Commission would sit on the following day. Major ATKINSON said before proceeding to the business of the Order Paper he should like to ask the Government a question. He understood that when the House adjourned on Friday evening it did so without appointing a day for the consideration of Government business. It followed, therefore, that the Government had no authority over the Order Paper, and consequently that the Order Paper stood now, in accordance with the Standing Orders, as on an ordinary private members’ day. He observed that all Government business was well up on the paper; and as the Premier had been good enough to allow his (Major Atkinson’s) resolutions precedence, he would ask whether it was intended to move the postponement of the Government business, in order that the discussion on the resolutions might come on, in accordance with the agreement made. The PREMIER said the House in affirming the motion of the hon member for Port Chalmers had affirmed the view that the resolutions of the hon member for Egmont should not be considered. (No !). He thought it was the duty of the Government to abide by the decision of the House. Major ATKINSON said the hon gentleman, then, was going to break faith with him. He hoped the hon gentleman would not take up that position, because he felt assured that the Speaker, if appealed to, would rule at once that the amendment carried did not affect the resolutions following the first one. The PREMIER said he did not consider he had broken faith, The House, as he understood it, had affirmed that the items of the Estimates should not be considered by means of general resolution ; and he read the second resolution as an item of the Estimates. (No !) Certainly it was. The other resolutions also dealt with the Estimates. It seemed to him that the hon gentleman had himself broken faith in moving his resolutions seriatim. Major ATKINSON asked the Speaker’s ruling as to whether the resolutions were traversed as a whole by the amendment by Mr Macandrew. The SPEAKER said he should certainly think that the amendment affected only the question under consideration. By no stretch could it be taken as affecting the whole of them. But the position now was that the orders of the day, as on the Order Paper, must be taken, except, of course, that they might be postponed by motion. Major ATKINSON asked whether the Premier would state whether it was proposed to keep faith with him. The PREMIER said even if the Government were agreeable they could not postpone the orders of the day, because any private members might object. He might at once tell the hon gentleman, however, that he did not intend to move the postponement. Major ATKINSON regretted that the hon gentlemau had not said that before. The PREMIER : You did not ask mo. Major ATKINSON proceeded to 3peak, when The PREMIER asked what motion the hon gentleman was talking of? Major ATKINSON said to the adjournment of the House, , if it was necessary to move it. Major Atkinson withdrew the word. The hon

gentleman was great at fence. He had distinctly promised to allow the motions to come on.

Sir JULIUS VOGEL rose to a point of order —that the hon member could not, on a motion for the adjournment, make reference to anything on the Order Paper. The SPEAKER ruled that the hon member was in order. He had not referred to anything on the Order Paper. Major ATKINSON said the Opposition had distinctly understood that a promise had been made. The hon gentleman had not fulfilled his engagement, and he was in this position that he had lost the confidence of the House and the country, because many members who had voted for the Government had said to the Premier that they did not care to do so. By an evasive motion, the Government sought to do away with discussion on the resolutions, and they had remained in office, on a question of expenditure, by the four Maori votes. A point of order having been raised, the SPEAKER said he did not approve of hon members being spoken of in this way ; every member met on an equal footing, and had a right to vote as he pleased. ' . , , Major ATKINSON said he simply wished to point out to the country that four members, who had no taxation, kept the Government in office. The Government having lost the confidence of the Colony, and having broken a promise, sought to evade discussion by means of the forms of the House. The Opposition, however, were quite satisfied ; they had shown, that the Government were afraid to meet an attack in a straightforward manner. Mr MACANDREW said the hon member should be the last to find fault with the course adopted. He reminded the hon gentleman of his conduct in 1879, when he had kept back a no-confidence motion for a fortnight, and then kept office by means of the “ square four.” Colonel TRIMBLE said the question m 1879 was a very different one. The Government then claimed a right to declare their policy, and held office until they had done so. He pointed out that when Mr Tomoana walked off the Government benches he was a patriot, but when hon members had gone from the Opposition to the Government side they were only “rats.” „ • The PREMIER said he was afraid the hon member had forgotten the division list on the other evening—the majority was not 4, it was 12. The Government had done what no other Government had done- —it had. met three votes of want of confidence in one night. He regretted that the hon member for Taranaki had brought up the question of 1879. (Mr Hurst : No ; Mr Macandrew brought it up.) The Premier said no doubt Mr Hurst knew more about it than kie did. (Hear, hear.) He submitted that the amendment of Mr Macandrew comprehended all the questions raised by the resolutions; it was unfair for the hon gentleman to say that faith had been broken by the Government. In answer to Mr Bryce, The PREMIER said the North Island trunk railway was on the Estimates. Mr WAKEFIELD, alluding to the want-of-confidence motion, said the Government had retained their seats on the Government benches by means which he would not like to distinctly explain to the House. The position in 1879 was a very different one—the Ministry, on that occasion, had, after a dissolution, hardly got on to the Treasury benches when they were faced by a no-confidence motion. He taunted the hon member for Port Chalmers with the exhibition he had made as an Opposition leader, and subsequently he had been said to have “ muddled away L 2,000,000 of the country’s money, without knowing where it had gone.” Wheri the hon member was able to govern the country, then it would be time for him to say “ a plague o’ both your houses.” In 1879 the Government had refused to allow the Opposition to attack them until their policy had been brought down. As to the statement that the majority had been improperly obtained, was the Hon Mr Swanston a man to he bought ? If so, why did the Government put him in the Legislative Council ? The compact was not a corrupt one. Was it a corrupt thing to demand that the secular system of education should be retained? And that was a main part of the compact. He twitted the Premier with shirking the issue, and submitted that although the amendment of Mr Macandrew might have held good, if moved on the whole resolutions, still hon members had in their remarks on the first motion confined themselves to that motion alone. It was certainly an understanding with the House that the resolutions should be taken singly. Would the Premier, if he were in Opposition, consider that the motions should all be discussed? Then the Premier had told them that he always faced an issue. Was he facing it now ? It was well known that it was impossible to effect reductions in the Estimates. Yet the Premier said that these motions—the first having been traversed by the first of them —were all comprehended by the Estimates. The consequence .of this would be that there would be a considerable injury to the country. The course of the Government was unwise, impolitic, and not in accordance with Parliamentary practice. The TREASURER said he thought it was only fair that a member of the Government should express the regret of the Government and of a majority of the House at the unprovoked attack made upon the hon member for Port Chalmers. He would tell the hon gentleman for Selwyn that if he ever occupied such a position as the hon member for Port Chalmers it would be a great day for him. Sir Julias Vogel alluded to. the action of the Government in 1879 as so skilful as to. demand admiration, if it was consistent with selfrespect. In reference to the question now before the House, the first of the hon member’s motions was one which would have thrown out of employment about 5000 men—(oh 1) — perhaps representing 20,000 people in the Colony. The House threw out that motion by 12 votes, and carried Mr Macandrew’s amendment. How, then, could the hon gentleman say that a narrow majority was in favor of the Government. The House had shown him by 12 votes that it would have none of. him ; the hon member for Oamaru had the right to pose as the most successful leader of the Opposition. He pointed out that in the Parliament of Great Britain the Government, had refused to consider a no-confidence motion unless moved by a leader. The Order Paper to-night was not of the Government’s making; and contrary to physical science, these resolutions, which were not of a weighty nature, had dropped to the bottom. The Government could not help that ; and he urged the House not to waste time in useless discussion. Mr BRYCE was glad to find that the Treasurer had such a high opinion of Mr Macandrew, because, if he could refer to Hansard, which he could not, he should be able to show that the hon gentleman had held a pronounced opinion of another character. He regretted the attitude taken up by the Government. Mr PRATT thought it very likely that some hon members were annoyed at the action of the Native members, although they did not express their opinion openly in the House. He had followed his own judgment in voting, and had not been told to vote for either side. He strongly commented upon the aspersions which had been cast upon the Native members;

and said that if he were as bad as some hon members he would leave the House altogether. Mr FERGUS said special representation for the Natives of the South Island was a farce. He dared the Premier to give the hon member for Egmont a chance to bring down his resolutions, and said that the hon gentleman was afraid to do so because he knew there was a majority of the House against the East and West Coast Railway. Dr. NEWMAN denied that he had spoken slightingly of the Maori race (in respect to a statement made by Mr Pratt) and characterised as a piece of bad breeding the frequent reference to the fact that the four Maori members had voted with the Government. He was strongly opposed to the exemption of Maoris from taxation. Mr LEVESTAM said the fact that the hon member for Egmont had said that the motions were such as an ordinary Government would take as a want of confidence motion showed that he had considered them as no-confidence motions. He (Mr Levestam) held that each of the motions embodied a want of confidence motion. • Mr HISLOP thought the Premier had adopted a wrong course, and should have told the House at once that to discuss these mattters now would only lose time, for then probably nothing more would have been heard of them. The opinion of many hon members supporting the Government was to keep the hon gentlemen on the Treasury benches, but to divest them of power ; and that, he submitted, should not be allowed by the Opposition. He denied that there was any analogy between the present case and that of 1879. He accused the Premier of having, after he had made an open secret of his intention to resign, stuck to the Government benches as no other Premier had ever done. He hoped that that hon gentleman when he next lectured on ideal politics would explain what he meant by “ this buoy chained to a rock,” for the only rock to which he was chained was the rock of expediency. Mr O’CONOR thought the. Opposition should take its beating and be satisfied. Several hon members spoke to the question. Mr BEETHAM said the Government were to be blamed for having made promises to the Maori members, and in that light it was easy to understand the action of those hon members. He had not believed that the Premier would have taken such an action. Mr FISHER found fault with the Government for the want of grace they showed in avoiding their difficulties. He pointed out that the Government had not acted fairly either to the House or the country, and he again mentioned that by a majority of four the House had decided not to decrease the public works expenditure, and the four Native members had voted for the Government. The same thing was shown in the division on the non-confidence motion, and he ascribed this to the fact that the Native Minister had promised to repeal the Crown and Native Lands Rating Act. He asked the Native members, as they ruled the country, to be merciful with the House. (Hear, hear.) It had been asked why the no-confidence motion was not brought down earlier ; but the Government had been treated to no-confidence motions all through the session, and had been beaten in every one of them. They had been thrust from pillar to post; yet they sank back on to the Government benches each time as limp as though their backbone had been abstracted or subtracted. He regretted the action of the Government because we were writing our Parliamentary history and precedent. Mr WI PERE said that the present Government was the first that had shown consideration for the Native race. So far nothing had been done to afford relief to the Natives. Hon members were not anxious, he pointed out, to pass measures which were for the good of the Nativee. He wished the Government to have an opportunity of carrying out their Native policy. Major ATKINSON, in reply, denied that the Natives were any better treated now than formerly, and told the hon members they were being deluded by promises which would never be fulfilled. He blamed the Government for not giving a straightforward question early in the evening, and said he had been misled by the action of the Government. It was impossible to consider such an important matter as the East ana]West Coast Railway on the Estimates. The Government had actually scuttled away from the motions. With regard to the Treasurer’s statement that 5000 men would be thrown out of employment by reductions, he denied that that would be so. If it was true that this large number of men were employed, it followed that many contracts were going on which the House knew nothing of, and he had always found that 3000 or 4000 had been about the number employed. It had been asked why the no-con-fidence motion bad not been brought down earlier. Had not the House been trying to get the Public Works Statement ever since the commencement of the session, and had not the Government shirked it, because they were determined to force the East and West Coast Railway through whether the House would have it or not. The Government had given a distinct pledge to him, and he had met them in a proper form, and now the Government had taken advantage of the forms of the House to put the motions off. The motion of adj ournment was lost on the voices. STATE FORESTS BILE. The amendments made in the Legislative Council to this Bill were agreed to. BIVER BOARDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments made by the Council to this Bill were agreed to. PUBLIC RESERVES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments made in the Legislative Council to this Bill were agreed to. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL. The PREMIER moved that this order be discharged. Carried. REPRESENTATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The PREMIER moved that this order be discharged, explaining that there was opposition offered to it in Auckland and Christchurch. Sir GEORGE GREY expressed a hope that the Government would not abandon the Bill. He did not think there would be any difficulty in getting it through. The motion was carried. BABBIT NUISANCE CONTINUANCE BILL. This Bill was agreed to in committee, reported and read a third time and passed. MORTGAGE DEBENTUBES BILL. The House went into committee on this Bill. The word “ Agent-General ” (as the registrar in London) was altered to “English Agent.” Progress was reported on the Bill, in order that amendments to the schedule might be considered. LAND TRANSFER BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. It was agreed to with amendments, reported, and read a third time and passed. GOLD-MINING DISTRICTS BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee. It was reported, and read a third time and passed. The House rose at 2.15 a.m. TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 1. The Speaker took his seat at 2.30 p.m. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented.

REPORTS. Reports from Select Committees were presented. QUESTIONS. In answer to Mr Macandrew, the MINISTER of LANDS said the Government would take steps to prevent quarrying on the islands in Otago Harbor, if it was found that the action taken was calculated to destroy the islands. In answer to Mr Locke, the MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said he had not received any report on the various coals of the Colony suitable for making “ Dowson’s water gas.” In answer to Mr W. White, the DEFENCE MINISTER said there would be no difficulty in supplying the Volunteers of the Colony with ammunition at cost price, beyond the regulation amount for practice. In answer to Dr Newman, the MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS said the contract of the North Island Trunk Railway, let to Maoris, had not been offered to Europeans. A small part of the contract had been put up for competition among Maoris, and it would be satisfactory to the House to learn that the prices were not excessive. In answer to Mr Moss, the MINISTER for JUSTICE said he should move the second reading of the Criminal Code Bill that afternoon. . A copy of the report of the English Commission, referred to in the Bill, would be found in the Library. WELLINGTON HOSPITAL INQUIRY. Mr G. F. RICBARDSON asked the Government, If they will permit the presence of the Press reporters at the meetings of the Hospital Commission ? The MINISTER of JUSTICE said that was a question for the Commission. Mr RICHARDSON wished to make a motion, without notice, to the effect that the proceedings should be open to the public. Opposition being offered, the motion could not be made. BILLS INTRODUCED. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time : —Sir George Grey—a Bill to reduce the Number of Votes which may be given by any County Elector at any Election for a Member of a County Council ; Hon Sir J. Vogel—The Public Revenues Bill. . AUCKLAND RAILWAY LAND COMPENSATION BILL. The MINISTER for PUBLIC WORKS moved the second reading of this Bill. This was agreed to. MORTGAGES DEBENTURES BILL. This Bill, haying been further considered in committee, was read a third time and passed. CRIMINAL CODE BILL. The MINISTER of JUSTICE moved the second reading of the Criminal Code Bill. He submitted that the function of the House was, in such a case, merely to sanction it, and not to debate it. Mr STEWART congratulated the Minister on the manner in which he had treated the Bill, but blamed the Government for bringing down such an important Bill as this at a late period of the session. He expressed an opinon that something ought to be done to deal with the system of private prosecutions —a system which was, he considered, at present a blot on the laws of the Colony. He thought the Bill might well have been left over till next session, so as to give time for its consideration. Mr CO NOLLY supported the Bill, and argued that, as it had been . prepared by the most eminent legal authorities, it should not be interfered with in detail by the House. He suggested that the Bill should be passed then, and not brought into operation until after next session. Mr MOSS said the Bill affected the whole of the Colony very deeply, and should be well considered. He looked at the Bill not as a lawyer would, perhaps, but taking it as a question of legislation. It allowed—he might also say consecrated —those of our laws which enabled the flogging of people, and it also legalised police supervision. He asked the House to consider the effect of that police supervision. He hoped the “ flogging clauses,” which he held to be a disgrace to our statute book, would not be passed. Colonel TRIMBLE : A flogging does good sometimes. Mr MOSS held that they were a disgrace to the statute book. ' Flogging brutalised every one connected with it, and did no good. He would remind ihß House that laws which were applicable in England were not applicable in this Colony, where we had no “criminal class.” Here it was provided that a man might be sentenced to penal servitude for life, with floggings also. Surely it was better to hang a man at once. These clauses were unworthy of a Government professing to be liberal. He hoped the House would not pass the Bill this sessioxi. Mr GARRICK said he had been unable to read a line of this Bill, because he had not had time. He had- not thought that the Government would bring down such an important Bill as this at a late period of the session when everyone was tired and weary, and, he might say, incapable of fairly considering it. This Bill was, he argued, about the most important that had been introduced this session, and it could not get proper consideration now. The usual adjournment was taken at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. On resuming at 7.30 the debate on the second reading of the Criminal Code Bill was postponed. EMPLOYMENT OF FEMALES AND OTHERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2.) Mr LEVESTAM moved that the amendment made in the Legislative Council to this Bill be agreed to. He pointed out that the principal alteration was one to the effect that females and young persons should be allowed to work in newspaper offices till 7 o’clock at night on Saturdays. Mr BRADSHAW moved that this amendment be not agreed to, and that “ half-past four ” be substituted for “seven.” Mr SUTTER pointed out that the House was edging work round with restrictions to such an°extent that the the result was to make manufactures dearer than they were in other colonies. i Mr PYKE said he should vote for the amendment, disapproving of the Legislature placing such restrictions on the employment of men and women. The PREMIER thought the amendment by Mr Bradshaw was not an unfair thing to ask. It had been explained that certain newspapers would not be able to conduct their work unless young persons were allowed to work till 4.30 ; and the House having given relief to that extent, the Council had gone further, and made the hour 7. He believed it was not necessary to keep young persons till that hour. Mr Bradshaw’s amendment was agreed to by 43 to 32. A committee was appointed to draw up reasons for disagreeing with the Council’s amendment. PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH PROPERTY BILL. Amendments made by the Council in this Bill were agreed to. WESTLAND AND GREY EDUCATION DISTRICTS BILL. This Bill was transmitted by the Governor tor consideration of amendments.

The PREMIER said these amendments were consequential on those made by the Council. He moved that they be agreed to. Carried. CRIMINAL CODE BILL. The postponed debate on the second reading of this Bill was resumed. Mr PYKE very highly praised the drawing of the Bill, and held that its provisions were necessary. The second reading was agreed to. RATING ACT AMENDMENT .BILL. _ Thi3 Bill was further considered in committee. Further amendments having been made, the Bill was reported and recommitted for the purpose of making a verbal amendment. It was again reported and read a third time and nassed. LAND TRANSFER BILL. This Bill was recommitted and several verbal amendments made, the discussion occupying nearly two hours. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. ORDER OF BUSINESS. Major ATKINSON asked for a statement of the Government’s proposals in regard to the business. The PREMIER said the Government expected to get through the whole of the business by the end of next week. On Saturday they proposed to sit for the consideration of federation. They hoped to get the Counties Act through that night. One day would be almost enough for the rest of the business — there was not much of it. Major ATKINSON : One day! Why there’s a week for this Bill (The Property Assessment Bill). The PREMIER : Well, we are going to try it to-night. Major ATKINSON: Well, the second reading is not much. But they would have to wait till the end of October if they transacted the business the Premier proposed. The hon gentleman apparently did not know the feeling of the House in regard to the Counties Bill. PROPERTY ASSESSMENT BILL. The PREMIER moved the second reading of this Bill. The Bill, he said, was a consolidation Bill, and did not contain many new provisions. The principal alterations were, first, in reference to taxing the assets of the insurance companies, and, he might say, that was done in South Australia. Then, as to exemption of agricultural improvements up to L3OOO from taxation. Then there was a question of taxing goodwill. There were several other important amendments; among them being the question of dealing with reversionary estates. Whatever views might be held in reference to a land or a property tax, it was certain that some amendment was necessary. Mr WAKEFIELD considered this was a ease in which men were called on to express their opinion upon a question raised by the Premier. The Premier had often told the House that it had to consider the question of taxation, and he had also said that this property tax was to be gradually introduced as a land tax. It appeared, therefore, that under the guise of a property tax they were to have a land tax introduced. He was opposed to a land tax, and considered it was most unjust. It was improper for the Premier to say that, as a supporter of the land tax, he was trying to get a land tax under this guise. In the land tax the great principle was that you were to tax not the mortgagee but the mortgagor. That was the whole fault of a land tax—that it taxed the nominal owner of the land when it ought properly to tax the mortgagee, who was the partner in the land. It was a means of allowing the money lender to still further grind the people down. He twitted the Premier with being a disciple of Henry George—or, rather, the tutor of that gentleman, for the Premier, it appeared, had taught Henry George most pernicious principles, which were circulated world wide in an unreadable book, which was more quoted than read, and which was much praised by people who had never read the first page of it. The Premier should be straightforward, and say at once whether they were to have aland or property tax. Mr Wakefield, later on, expressed his repentance for having formerly opposed the property tax. Was the hon gentleman prepared to exempt money in the bank from taxation ? If not, why did he tax exactly the same money when expended on agricultural improvements, which were reproductive ? Mr SUTTER raised several objections to the Bill, one of which was to Native property being exempt from taxation. Mr PYKE contended that every man should contribute towards the property tax. How, he said, could a man be a poor man when he owned property ? The clause exempting the Maoris from taxation must be struck out, or there would be no justice in the Bill. The Maoris were men—and very fine men—then why should they not pay their share of taxation? He would support any one who moved amendments in these directions —viz., to tax Native property and have no exemptions ; and if no one moved he would move it himself. Mr STEWART deprecated introducing into this House a Bill professedly a consolidating Bill, and throwing it on the floor of the House for hon members to make any amendments they pleased. Mr W. C. BUCHANAN agreed that the large question of a land tax versus a property tax was raised in this Bill—they had the word

of the Premier for that. He (Mr Buchanan) \ had always held that the property tax was I about the fairest direct taxation that could be > imposed. He had not yet made up his mind as '< to whether the exemption should be reduced, ; but considered that in the present condition of the Colony it was an open question whether it should not be reduced. With regard to the exemption for Native property, he thought such property should be taxed. Mr W. F. BUCKLAND said the Colony was drifting into a vast taxing machine. What the Romans put on the Jews was nothing to it. Everything in this Act bristled with fresh taxation. The business of everyone was to be made known to all sorts of clerks ; and, indeed, it seemed to him that very soon they would be forced by Act to have printed on their backs the amount of taxation they paid. Major ATKINSON said the Bill might be looked at as a consolidation Bill or as a pasuoral land tax. He was unable to understand the reasons for the exemptions. Supposing a farm worth L4OOO was mortgaged for L2OOO, it would pay no taxation. And how many farms in the country were worth more than LjOOi), which he might give as the price which would still exempt the farm. Thus the agricultural property was practically exempt, and the towns would naturally cry out that the country was not paying its share. Then, had the Premier computed the loss to the revenue by this Bill ? In his district, for instance, not half a dozen persons would pay taxes ; and he trusted the Premier would give something like an estimate of the loss. He would not go into the question of a land versus a property tax beyond saying that experience had shown that those who had. advocated the property tax were right in so doing. In other parts of the Bill he saw the hand of the Treasurer. In agreeing to the second reading of the Bill, he did not agree to the alterations made in the Bill. The principle of taxation in the Golony had always been to tax what a man had over and above what he owed. He should, be prepared to assist the Government in reducing the exemptions, because he held that while it was necessary to allow a man to get a start m life, he thought it was advisable that as many as possible should contribute to the general taxation. With these understandings he would support the second reading of the Pill Dr NEWMAN suggested that the Bill should have been called a Band and Property Tax Bill. He considered the proposal to tax life insurance policies was. objectionable, as was the amount of exemption for agricultural improvements. . , Colonel TRIMBLE protested against the increase of exemptions. Captain RUSSELL objected to a consolidating Bill containing such a large principle as that in connection with the exemption of agncultural improvements. , , , The PREMIER said he. understood the only objection to the Bill was in respect to the exemptions. It was unfair to say that the towns-would set against the country, and he contended that t.ne Bill placed the agricultural and pastoral interests on an equality. He pointed out that while the mortgagee was liable, it provided for an agreement being made between mortgagee and mortgagor —such an agreement having formerly been made null and void by law. Mortgagees were not exempt: he hoped the House wouid not be led away by that beliet. He submitted that it was only fair to encourage farmers and small manufacturers. He held that LSOOO was not too large an exemption on property. They must not do anything that would tend to discourage thrift, and to say that a man who was thrifty should pay taxes when he got property to an amount of L3OO. He hoped the Bill would be well considered m Committee, and that, whoever won, the battle would be fairly fought out. Mr KERR : What about the Maoris ? The PREMIER said very few Maoris had anything taxable, and the result of taxing Native property would be to stop settlement, because they would not individualise. Besides, the Natives were already taxed to a considerable extent. It was unwise, he submitted, to tax the property of the Natives. Mr ROLLESTON asked what amount of the agricultural and machinery exemptions would replied that it would be impossible to make an estimate—the Government had got that answer from the Department. There would be a considerable decrease, but the taxable property of the Colony would not be decreased, because other things were brought under the tax. The second reading was agreed to, and tne House rose at 1 a.m. WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2. The Speaker took his seat at 2.30. PETITIONS. Various petitions were presented. REPORTS. Reports of Select Committees were presented. WELLINGTON HARBOR BOARD BILL. The Local Bills Committee reported that this was a local Bill, and recommended that it be allowed to proceed. The second reading was set down for the following day. PACIFIC ISLANDS COMMITTEE. Major STEWARD moved, without notice, that the Pacific Islands Committee have leave to sit on the following afternoon during the sitting of the House. Carried. QUESTIONS. . Mr W. F. BUOKLAND asked the Minister for Public Works, Whether he will give effect to the resolution passed by the delegates from various Pastoral and Agricultural Associations, viz., to convey to and fro, free of charge, on the New Zealand Railways, all . stock and articles duly entered for exhibition at the various shows in the Colony ? The MINISTER said the Government were already granting sufficient concessions. His answer might be summed up in one word—no. Mr ORMOND asked the Government, Was the circular issued by the Colonial Secretary on the 9th May, 1885, to managers of newspapers, requesting them to state the scale of rates at which they would insert Government advertisements, issued with the intention of giving the Government advertisements to the lowest tenderer, provided the circulation of the paper made it a fair advertising medium ; and, if so, why has not that been acted on? Would not the adoption of such a system effect a great saving ; and will the Government adopt it in fU The ' MINISTER of JUSTICE said the circular was not issued with the intention of getting the Government advertisement published at the lowest possible price. Ihe' circular requested that the proprietors would furnish the scale of rates on their respective papers for publishing Government advertisements. The acceptance of any office did not confer a monopoly of Government advertising. The object of the circular was to enable the department to check the accounts for advertising The latter part of the question would require consideration. It was by no means certain that an advantage would be gained. In answer to Sir George Grey, the NATIVE MINISTER said it was the intention ol the Government to hold an inquiry into the conduct of an Assessor who had been accused by the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court of receiving a bribe. There was consider-

able difficulty, however, in the matter, because it had been shown that the award of the Assessor was a correct one, and that justice had been done. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the adjournment of the House, in order to speak in reference to the matter. He argued that a rehearing should be held on the block in question.. After a lengthy discussion, the motion for adjournment was lost, and the matter dropped. MOTION. Mr FISHER moved, That there be laid before this House a statement showing the result of the tendering for the printing of ten millions of telegraph forms required by the Government, giving the names of the tenderers and the amount of each tender. Carried. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL (NO. 2.) Sir JULIUS VOGEL said the Government desired to postpone the second reading of this Bill till next session, and moved that the order be discharged. Carried. AUCKLAND RAILWAY LAND COMPENSATION BILL, This Bill was agreed to in committee without amendment. COUNTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. A long discussion took place on clause providing for the creation of new counties and the alteration of boundaries. During the discussion it was suggested by several members that the Government should not press |the Bill this session, and eventually the clause was carried. EVENING SITTING. On resuming at 7.30, the Counties Act Amendment Bill was continued. A long discussion took place on clause 5, which runs, “From and after the passing of this Act, the operation of the said Act shall not be capable of being suspended in any county. 5 ’ Eventually the clause was added to the Bill by 36 to 32. On clause 6, providing that in the Eden, Manukau, Raglan, Oroua, Marlborough, Ashley, and Peninsular counties, the Act may be deemed to be suspended, Mr Hurst suggested that the House would surely not stultify its action in passing the previous clause- by accepting this. He moved that it be struck out. This was lost on division by 50 to 30. The clause was slightly amended before it was passed. Clause 11, Chairman of County to be elected by County electors annually. The Premier (who was in charge of the Bill) said he had received a large number of opinions from County Councils on this matter, and he must say they were nearly all against it. He was prepared to eliminate this provision, although he still believed in the election by the electors. To take the sense of the Committee on the matter, Mr Reid moved that the words “the county electors of each county shall 55 be struck out. Mr Dargaville thought the answer would have been different if the question had been put to the electors. Mr O’Conor agreed with this, and Mr Buchanan took a different view, arguing that the people had already been sickened with elections. This was carried by 52 to 24. Other clauses were struck out as consequential amendments. Clause 35, limitation of bank overdraft. This was struck out on the voices. Progress was then reported, and leave obtained to sit again. PROPERTY ASSESSMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. Clauses 13 and IS, relative to property subject to and exempt from taxation, were postponed at the suggestion of Major Atkinson. Other important clauses were postponed, in accordance with the suggestion of Major Atkinson, who suggested that the most important clauses should be held over. Progress was reported on the Bill. The Auckland Railway Land Compensation Bill was read a third time and passed. The House rose at 12.50. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. FRIDAY, AUGUST 28. The Hon the Speaker took his seat at 2.30 p.m. REPORTS. The Select Committee, to whom was' referred the Hospital and Charitable Institutions Bill, reported that “this Committee, having already reported a resolution on the subject of the Hospitals and Charitable Bill to the Council, now return the Bill to the Council with the further recommendation that after the resolution already reported shall have been disposed of the Bill shall be considered.” The Local Bills Committee, to whom was referred the Gisborne High School Bill, reported that it is a Local Bill; that the Standing Orders have been complied with ; and they recommend that the Bill, with certain amendments, be allowed to proceed. The Joint Codlin Moth Committee reported as follows : —Your Committee have the honor to report that they have collected a large amount of valuable information respecting this and other insect pests, and the remedies, to be employed in keeping them within check in the orchards throughout the Colony. They recommend that this information should be published by the Government and circulated as widely as possible without delay. They would, however, impress upon the Government the futility of any efforts made by fruit growers to rid the Colony of these insects if persons outside the Colony are allowed to send into all our ports fruit which is infected. They, therefore, recommend that a regulation, by Order in Council under the Codlin Moth Act, be issued prohibiting the importation of infected fruit, and making the penalty for any breach of the law confiscation of the fruit, and a heavy fine in addition. The Committee are also of opinion that the Customs officers or the Sheep Inspectors in the various ports and parts of the Colony might be made available for carrying out the provisions of the Act, and for giving effect to the suggestions above made without much additional cost to the Colony. The Committee find that Mr Maskell, Registrar of the New Zealand University, has devoted a great deal of time and trouble in collecting information about the. various insect pests which do so much damage in the Colony, and that he would be willing to undertake the compilation of a full report if the Government would provide the necessary illustrations, and pay the expense of printing and publishing. They consider that such a report, in a concise form, and sold at a low price to secure its wide distribution, would be of great value, and they recommend it to the consideration of the Government accordingly. MOTIONS. Sir F. WHITAKER moved that the Mining Companies Act, 1872, Amendment Bill be committed on Wednesday next. Carried. The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved that, for the remainder of the session, this Council do sit on Mondays for Government business. Carried. IMPREST SUPPLY (No. 3) BILL. . , This Bill was passed through its remaining stages. The Council, at 3 p.m,, adjourned. MONDAY, AUGUST 31. The Hon the Speaker took his- seat at 2.30 p.m. MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT. The COLONIAL SECRETARY said that

in consequence of the greater number of the members of the Council having joined the excursion on the Wellington-Manawatu Railway, be would move that the Council adsaid he considered it was the duty of the Council to proceed with the business on the Order Paper The Council had now been sitting twelve weeks and had done nothing ; all the principal Bills had yet to be dealt with, and in a week or two there would be a rush of business from the Cower House. Mr SHEPHERD, in view of the important measures on the Order Paper, asked the Colonel Secretary to withdraw his motion. The COLONIAL SECRETARY agreed to withdraw his motion. THIRD READING. The New Zealand State Forests Bill was read a third time and passed. SECOND READING. The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved the second reading of the Bankruptcy Act, 1883, Amendment Bill. . , . „ Dr POLLEN moved, that in order to allow absent members to take part in the debate on this Bill, the Council adjourn till 7.30 p.m. This was agreed to, and the Council rose at 2.50 p.m. EVENING SITTING. The Hon the Speaker took his seat at 7.30 T».m. A PAPER. The printed correspondence relating to the naval defence of the Colony was laid upon the table. IN COMMITTEE. The Council went into committee on the Stamp Act, ISB2, Amendment Bill and the Deceased Persons Estates Duties Act, lot>L Amendment Bill. Both Bills were reported without amendments. The former was read a third time, and was passed by_ 1 J to 11, tne latter was also read a third time and passed. The Property Law Consolidation Bill was committed, and progress was reported. SECOND READING. The Bankruptcy Act, 1883, Amendment Bill was read a second time without debate. ADMINISTRATION BILE. The report of the managers of the conferencG upon, tho Administration .Act, Amendment Bill was agreed to. THIRD READINGS. The River Boards Act, ISB4, Amendment Bill and the Public Reserves _ Act, 1881, Amendment Bill were read a third time and passed. SECOND READING. The gPatea Harbor Board Bill was read a second time without debate. The Council then, 8.25 p.m., adjourned. TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 1. The Hon. the Speaker took his seat at 2.30 p.m. PAPERS. Further papers in connection with the negotiation of the loans and conversion of debentuures into inscribed stock were laid on the table. NOTICE OP QUESTION. Dr MENZIES gave notice that on Thursday, 3rd September, he would ask the Government if it will, during tlie_ recess, make arrangements for printing an index of the despatches which have passed between the Governor of the Colony and the Secretaries of State for the Colonial Department, from the establishment of the Colony to the close of the year 1884. GOVERNMENT BY PARTY. Captain MORRIS moved that, in the opinion of this Council, the present system of government by party is not the best possible method of governing the Colony ; and that a committee of seven members be appointed by ballot to inquire into the working of the system, with a view of suggesting improvements or alterations. The Committee to have power to call for persons and papers, and to report within _a fortnight. In moving the resolution, Captain Morris said that government by party lowered the tone of the country andalso of the Government, and it was, therefore, desirable for some change to be made. Dr POLLENjsaid, as there was no party in the Council, the question could only be regarded as an abstract one in this branch of the Legislature. Mr REYNOLDS thought the motion was well worthy the consideration of the Council. Mr PHARAZYN said it was always necessary to have some form of party Government. The motion was rejected on the voices. PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH PROPERTY BILL. The adjourned debate on the third reading of this Bill was resumed, when a long discussion took place as to whether the Bill was a public or private one. Sir F. WHITAKER thought that, as there was no urgent necessity for the Bill to pass this session, it would be advisable to withdraw it until next session, in order that it might be made a private Bill. ~ , Mr BONAR hoped the Bill would be allowed to be read a third time. The Bill was read a third time and passed by 21 to 17. HOSPITAL AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS BILL. The Council considered the following resolution, as reported from the Select Committee to whom was referred the Hospital and Charitable Institutions Bill: That, in establishing a system of relief for the aged and indigent poor, it is expedient that it should be conducted by Boards elected by contributors; that the funds to be administered should be derived from endowments, voluntary contiibutions, legacies, and subsidies from the State, but that no special rates shall be leviable for this purpose. Dr MENZIES moved that the Council do concur in the resolution. Captain ERASER thought the only relief for the poor of the Colony was by a rate upon P X r ScLEAN was anxious that the Bill should go back to the Committee and be remodelled. Unless the hospitals were separated from the charitable aid, the charitable institutions would lose voluntary contnbutions, -. r Mr SHRIMSKI did not agree with Mr McLean in regard to referring the Bill back to the Committee, as, if such were_ done, it would not see daylight again this session. The Bill was urgently needed, and a better measure than the one submitted had not emanated from the Government. Mr PHARAZYN supported the resolution of the Committee, so as to enable hospitals to be separated from charitable institutions. The debate was adjourned. MESSAGE PROM THE GOVERNOR. A message was received from His Excellency the Governor requesting the Council to make •certain alterations in the University Reserves Bill. EVENING SITTING. The Hon the Speaker took his seat at 7.30 p.m. DUNEDIN DRILLSHED BILE. Dr POLLEN moved that the Ccbneil go into committee on the Dunedin Drillshed Reserves Act, 1876, Amendment Act, 1884, Amendment Bill. He said the Bill was -not

a private one, and he asked the Council to proceed with it. Mr BATHGATE opposed the Bill,, as he thought it could not be passed in equity and good conscience. He moved that it be committed that day three months, Mr McLEAN maintained that the Council had to redress a wrong that was committed unwittingly last session. Mr SHRIMISKI said the Bill was to all intents and purposes a private Bill. . Mr Hart said the Bill was not a question of being a private measure, it was a Bill of public interest and justice. Mr LAHMANN wished to have the wrong redressed either with or without Standing Orders Mr G. R. JOHNSON agreed with the remark made by Mr Hart. Mr REYNOLDS hoped the Council would reject the Bill, as he thought that if the _alwronged parties wished a Bill oj. the kind they could introduce a private Bill next sesSl °Mr PHARAZYN thought it right for the Council to pass the Bill, in order to rectify their mistake of last session. The motion to go into committee was carried by 22 to 11. The Bill was committed, reported without amendments, read a third time, and passed. IN COMMITTEE. The Council went into committee on the Bankruptcy Act, 51883, Amendment Bill, and the Mines Act, 1877, Amendment Bill. The former was reported with amendments, and progress was reported with the latter. The Property Law Consolidation Bill was further considered in committee. Mr Wilson moved the following new clause :—The concluding words of clause 35 of the Property Law Consolidation Act, 1883, viz.,“implied tenancy from year to year by payment of rent is hereby abolished,” are hereby repealed ; and in lieu thereof the following words shall be read as part of the said clause: “Any tenancy not exceeding one year may be created by agreement in writing or by parol; and if there be a tenancy and no such agreement as to its duration, it shall be deemed and held to be a tenancy, or determinable, by one month’s notice in writing.” Carried. Mr Brandon moved the insertion of the following clause : —“ All deeds heretofore and hereafter to be executed out of the Colony, signed in the presence of and attested by a notary public, who has attached or shall attach his ! official seal thereto, shall be received in evidence in all Courts of justice in the Colony, notwithstanding he may not have made the declaration required by the Act cf the Imperial Parliament, the Statutory Declaration Act, 1835.” The motion was rejected on the voices. The Bill was reported with amendments. The Council rose at 10.35 p.m. WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2. The Hon the Speaker took his seat at 2.30 p.m. REPORT. A report of the interview of a deputation from the Kaihu Valley Railway Company (Limited) with the Minister of Public Works was laid on the table. NOTICES OP MOTION. Mr SHRIMSKI gave notice that he would move that, in the opinion of this Council, the fees paid by the promoters of the undermentioned private Bills —namely, Congregational Union Incorporation Bill and St. Mary’s Convent Property Leasing Bill, should be refunded. . , , Dr MENZIES gave notice that he would ask the Colonial Secretary, Whether he will make inquiry into the alleged infraction of the Order in Council of August 4, 1885, extending the close season of rock oysters in respect of Whangarex Harbor, the East Barrier Island, and other places named in the order, until the 31st March, 1887, as reported in the New Zealand Herald of the 27th ultimo. CODLIN MOTH. On the motion of Captain BAILLIE, it was resolved that the report of the Joint Committee on codlin moth be agreed to. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL BILL. The adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill was resumed. Sir F, WHITAKER said if the second reading were agreed to, he would allow the Bill to drop for the present, as there was no chance of getting it through the House during iikis session* Mr MANTELL moved the previous question. Mr MILLER thought it right for the Council to give the Bill the attention it deserved, but he could not see why New Zealand should be the first of the colonies to try the experiment of changing the constitution of the Legislative Council. He should therefore vote for the previous question. Mr STEVENS said he would support the Bill, because it would give additional force to the Council and enlist a large amount of public sympathy. Dr POLLEN said he should vote for the Bill, as he thought a change in the Constitution was required. Mr BRANDON did not think the country had any sympathy with the idea expressed by some people that the Council should be abolished. He was of opinion that the Council was an indispensable branch of the Legislature. Mr REYNOLDS would support the second reading, as there was a necessity for a change in the Constitution. He did not entirely agree with the Bill. He thought that on the passing of the measure all members should retire, and trust to their popularity and their merits of usefulness for re-election. He believed there was a necessity for younger men taking the place of some of the older members of the Council. (Colonel Brett: Speak for yourself.) No; he would speak for the Hon Colonel Brett as well, as he believed he was a little older than himself. Colonel BRETT protested against any attempt to alter the Constitution of the Council. He should, therefore, vote for the previous question. Captain FRASER hoped the second reading would be agreed to. Mr SCOTLAND moved the adjournment of the debate. The motion was negatived. Mr SHRIMSKI disagreed with the clauses of the Bill which gave the members of the Council Dower to choose their own colleagues. He also disagreed with the members who had said the country did not desire a change in the Council. „ 1 „ Mr CHAMBERLIN did rot think the Bill a radical measure. He should support the second reading, althought he thought the Bill might be slightly amended. Dr. MENZIES criticised the Bill, but he believed in the proposal to introduce new blood. He should support the second reading of the Bill on the distinct understanding that it proceeded no further this session. Mr SHEPHERD thought the loss of the older members of the Council would be the worst thing possible that could happen to the Legislature. . ■ Sir F. WHITAKER was perfectly satisfied, from the remarks that had fallen from those who had taken part in the debate, that the Bill would eventually become law. The Council divided on the question that the

previous question be now put:—Noes, 21; ayes, 18. The second reading was agreed to by 22 to 17Ayes, 22. —Messrs Barnicoat, Brandon, Chamberlin, Eraser, Grace, Henderson, G. R Johnson, Kohere, Lahmann, McLean, Menzies, Peacock, Pharazyn, Pollen, Reeves, Reynolds, Richmond, Shrimski, Stevens, Swanson, Wilson, and Sir F. Whitaker. Noes, 17.—Messrs Baillie, Bathgate, Bonar, Brett, Buckley, Campbell, Dignan, Hart, Kenny, Mantell, Miller, Peter, Scotland, Shepherd, Taiaroa, Walker, and Wigley. MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE A message was received from the House of Representatives announcing that the amendment* made by the Council in the New Zealand State Forests Bill, the River Boards Act Amendment Bill, the Public Reserves Bill, and the Presbyterian Church Property Bill, had been agreed to. . ' _ A message was received from the House, stating that the amendments made by the Council in the of [Females and Others Act Amendment Bill had been disagreed with as far as regards the insertion of the new clause. , / , It was resolved that the message be taken into consideration on Thursday. FIRST READING. The Gold Mining Districts Bill was received from the House of Representatives, and read a first time. NOTICE OF AMENDMENT. Sir F. WHITAKER gave notice that he would move the following amendment to the Hospital and Charitable Institutions Bill : “ That in establishing a system of charitable aid a clearly defined distinctness should be drawn between involuntary and voluntary pauperism, and with that object provision should be made (1) for relieving the aged, helpless, and distressed, chiefly in kind; (2) no relief should be given to those able to work, but in cases of necessity work should be found for them at a rate of wages not exceeding one half the ordinary wages of the district; (3) one half of the funds necessary after deducting voluntary contributions should be provided by a rate, and the other half for the present by a contribution from the Consolidated Fund; (4) the funds should be administered by the local Boards, who should also levy the rates.” IN COMMITTEE. The Council went into committee on the Mining Companies Act, 1872, Amendment Bill. The Bill was reported with slight amendments. SECOND READING. * Mr G. R. JOHNSON moved the second reading of the Gisborne High School Bill. The debate was suspended by the 5 o’clock adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The debate on the Gisborne High School Bill was resumed. , _ • .- , Mr POLLEN thought the Bill represented the zeal of the member for the district rather than the wants of the people. The Bill, if passed, would cause a spoliation of the education reserves ; he, therefore, could not see his way to support it. Mr G. R. JOHNSON contended that the measure would not spoil the educational reserves. Gisborne was increasing very rapidly, and the school was entitled to the reserves in the Cook County. He trusted the Council would give the Bill their support, so that Gisborne might have a High School at an early date. The second reading was agreed to on tne voices. IN COMMITTEE. The Council went into committee on the Patea Harbor Board Bill. Progress was reported and leave granted to sit again. THIRD READING. The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved the third reading of the Bankruptcy Act, 1883, Bill. , , Mr REYNOLDS moved, That the Bill be recommitted for the purpose of further considering Clause 12. , , , Mr PHARAZYN moved, That the debate be adjourned. Negatived. The third reading was agreed to by 18 to 13. IN COMMITTEE. The Mines Act, 1877, Amendment Bill was further considered in committee. It was agreed by 19 to 8 to strike out the clause providing that the Governor may reduce the fee for mining leases or licenses and miners’ rights. The clause providing that the Governor may from time to time reduce the yearly sum payable for a machine site or business site was also struck out by 19 to 6. The Bill was reported with amendments. LAND BILL. _ The second reading of this Bill was discharged from the Order Paper, and was made an order of the day for Thursday. The Council rose at 10 p.m.