HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLV, Issue 13868, 30 September 1908, Page 8

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

."■"' ' Tuesday. : : After the telegraph office closed this morning, the Hon. J. CARROLL, continuing the debate on the motion to go into Committee of Supply on the Public Works' Estimates,; said the Government was fully alive to the necessity of developing native lands by means of surveys, roads, and" railways. * ~, The. Hon. J. McGOWAN said there was another side to this question. When a European wished to lease lands he had to road them, and it was only..right.that native lands should bear some of the load for loading, but when it was sought, to obtain metal for roading purposes from the natives they always demanded a very stiff royalty, and so appeared to be well able to look after- themselves. He concluded by saying that the North had been fairly treated in the matter of votes. .The House then went into Committee of Supply. At class 27 (Publio Works Department, total vote £23,800), the Hon. W. HALLJONES said he would ask -.the House to pass the first item, and then report proMr. .MASSEY : said' ho thought they Mr.. MASSEY said ho thought they should follow . the usual custom, and report progress from the committee on the first item of the vote. , It was unfair to ask.them to discuss the whole class at that hour, especially as on the first class general discussion on the whole administration of the Department could be taken. The Hon. W. HALL-JONES said the course he suggested was the usual one. Mr. HERRIES thought it very unreasonable to ask members to take a general debate on administration at that hour. He moved to report progress. The motion was lost by 17 votes to 10. The PRIME MINISTER pointed out that it had been usual in the past to pass the first class without discussion, and report progress. '. Sir. MASSEY said the Government had insisted: on going on. There was not a quorum in the House, and the Opposition might simply walk out, but it had determined not to do so. It would go on with the debate on the class before them. General discussion was then conducted by Mr. J. Allen > and the Hon A. R. Guinness on water power. The vote was eventually passed unaltered. The House rose at 2.40 a.m. The House met at 2.30 p.m. POLICE OFFENCES BILL. The Police Offences Amendment Bill was received back from the Council with amendments. The original BUI contained two clauses, and the now one, as returned to the House, contains nineteen new clauses: Consideration of this was set, down for to-morrow, SECOND BALLOT BILL. After considerable discussion, a motion by Sir Joseph Ward to set up a committee to draw up reasons for disagreeing with the amendments made in the Second Ballot Bill by the Legislative Council was carried. The House adjourned! at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m. HARBOURS AMENDMENT BILL. The Harbours Amendment Bill was received from the Council and read a first time. INSPECTION OF MACHINERY. The amendments made in the Inspection of Machinery Bill by the Council' were agreed to. LOCAL BODIES' LOANS BILL. The House went into committee on.the Local Bodies* Loans Amendment Bill. Clause 5, on the moCion of Sir JOSEPH WARD, was struck out. • At clause 19, providing that the Public Trustee is to be sole Commissioner of the Sinking Fund, some discussion took plaee as to the meaning of the clause, and the extent of its operation. Mr. IZARD said under that clause it would appear that it was compulsory upon local bodies to make the Public Trustee the Sinking Fund Commissioner whether the Government guarantee was behind the loan or not. '

Sir JOSEPH WARD said that would be the case in regard to all future loans. , Mr. MASSEY thought that was very unfair. It meant that local bodies must invest sinking funds in Government debentures, whether loans were guaranteed or not. He saw no objection to such a stipulation where the Government guaranteed: a loan, but in other cases local bodies would stronglv object to such compulsion. Sir JOSEPH WARD said when load bodies borrowed outside the principal Act, the clause- did not apply, but it would apply to all loans under tho Act, whether guaranteed or not. A county council might borrow £6000 under the principal Act without" a guarantee, and afterwards borrow £20,000 with a guarantee. ,_ Ho would object to such a council haying a private sinking fund commissioner for the first loan, and the Public Trustee as commissioner for the second. Mr. SIDEY said the Government might insert a proviso, making it necessary for a hands of the Trustee, if loans wore guaranteed. Mr. WILFORD said there was no good reason why this condition should be. imposed in respect of loans not guaranteed, Ho suggested that the clause be amended by adding after tho words, " loan raised under the principal Act," tho words, " and guaranteed as aforesaid." The PRIME MINISTER said the proposal made in the Bill was quite reasonable, seeing what the Government was doing. The Government ■ guaranteed the ' sinking fund investment, and the higher,interest which local public bodies might derive from 'mortgages would be scarcely worth considering, independent of the risk of loss, find the fact that the proposal made by those who objected to the clause must have tho effect of making money dearer. • Mr. MASSEY was sure local "bodies did not understand what was on foot, and ho objected to the whole principle of the thing as unwarranted. Messrs. SIDEY, OKEY, and others pointed out that under clause- 19 tho local bodies lost the power conferred by section 50 of the Local Bodies' Loans Act to appoint sinking fund commissioners outsido the Dominionin-, England, for example, where first-class - securities ; were obtainable at higher interest than here. Mr. WiKord's ■ amendment was defeated by 20 votes to 41. ' The clause was agreed to by 41 votes to 20. Section 20 was amended bv the insertion after the words, " Native Township Act, 1895," the words, "or under the Native and Maori Land Laws Amendment Act, 1902." Sir JOSEPH WARD moved new clause, 15a, extending tho provision of the Bill to loans, in respect of which a poll or any other preliminary steps have been taken before the passing of the. Bill. Tho new clause was agreed to. Sir JOSEPH WARD moved .a. new clause, 18a, amending section 11 of the principal Act. The clause was agreed'to. Sir JOSEPH WARD moved the following new clause, 18b:—" (1) If the amount ' of any loan raised under Part I. of the principal Act is found insufficient to completo the undertaking in respect of which it wis raised, the local authority may borrow under that part of the said Act a further sum, not being greater than one-tenth of the amount of the original loan, for the purpose of completing that undertaking. (2) In any such case it shall not be necessary to give any notice to or take a further poll of the ratepayers, and a special rate may be made by the local authority as security for the interest and other charges in respect of such further loan. (3) The last-men-tioned special rate may be deemed to bo, and may be levied as, a part of or m addition to the special rate made and levied in respect of the original loan." The clause was agreed to on tho voices. , Sir JOSEPH WARD moved to amend section 91 of the principal Act by repealing sub-section 5 thereof.

The motion was agreed to. Sir JOSEPH WARD moved a new clause, 21, providing that in any case where, after the commencement of the Act. money is authorised by ratepayers to be borrowed for any particular purpose, nnd no part of such money is borrowed within two years after the taking of a poll, the authority shall lapse, and no proceeding!* shall thereafter be taken for borrowing money except under the authority of another poll of ratepayers. ' The clause was agreed to. Mr. JENNINGS moved a new clause, extending the principal Act to native townships. The clause was agreed to. Mr. IZARD moved to amend section 15 of the principal Act by omitting the words "and paying off" in paragraph (b) by inserting after paragraph, (a) the following paragraph: '* Paying off the whole or any part of any special loan heretofore lawfully raised." The new clause was agreed to. Sir JOSEPH WARD moved' a new clause providing that a special roll of ratepayers shall be prepared for loans under paragraph (b) of clause 15 of the principal Act. . ' ■ ■' Mr. ' HERRIES moved to amend the principal Act in the direction of increasing the borrowing powers of town boards from'£soo to £1000. Sir JOSEPH WARD regretted that he could not accept the clause. The country could not afford it. The motion was rejected by 35 vow to 20 votes, and the Bj'jl was reported. FIRST TiIADSXGS.' The Public Service Classification and Superannuation Bill, Local Authorities' Superannuation Funds Bill, Old Ago Pensions Act Amendment ' Bill, Naval Subsidy Bill, Mental Hospitals Reserves Bill, and Infants Act Amendment Bill were introduced and read a first time. SECOND READINGS. The first two Bills were read a second time pro forma, and referred to the Public Accounts Committee. . [ The House rose at 1.15 a.m.