THE LICENSING BILL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XLI, Issue 12660, 14 September 1904, Page 6

THE LICENSING BILL.

further DISCUSSION IN parliament; REDUCTION ISSUE DEBATED. THE PREMIER DEFEATED. A CLOSE DIVISION. [BT TELEGRAPH.PRESS ASSOCIATION.] „ Wellington, Tuesday. In the House of Representatives at a-quarter to three p.m. the House went into committee on the Licensing Acts Amendment Bill. The short title and interpretation clauses of the Bill passed without comment. At clause 3, which eliminates the " reduction" issue from the local option voting papers, . Mr. McNal moved an amendment, the effect ot which would be tc restore the reduction issue. Mr. Seddo<n eait' Mr„ McNab should have explained why he moved this amendment, seeing that a Bill which he (Mr. McNab) had introduced in 1895, and which had been approved by the prohibition party, did not contain the reduction issue. The Premier went on to say that he had been led to believe that the temperance party did not lay any 6tresa on the reduction vote, and ne further contended that it was simply a duplication of the no-license vote. Reduction, where carried, had increased the value and trade of the remaining properties, and had not in any way decreased the consumption of liquor. Increase of population was always going on, aud that meant a reduction of the number of hotek in proportion to the population.

At this stage Messrs. Duthie and Massey suggested that the discussion on the Bill in committee should be. briefly reported in Hansard. Mr. Seddon opposed the proposal, as he thought the newspaper reports would be sufficient, and no action was taken in the matter. Mi. Taylw pointed out that Mr. McNao's Bill of 18ti5 did not altogether eliminate the reduction issue, as it proposed to give lice'sing committees discretionary powers to reduce the nuinb»r of licenses. He complained of the Premier having misinformed the House on this important point, and contended that Mr. MeNab's..Bill, as a matter of fact, proposed to increase the power to reduce licenses, now given to the people by the reduction issue. Mr. Seddon: 1 will show you that you are wrong. Mr. Taylor: lam sure lam right. Mr. Seddon maintained that his interpretation of the provisions of Mr, McNab's Bill was the correct one. A lengthy argument took place between Mr. Seddon and Mr. Taylor as to who was I right on the subject. '■'-.. Mr. Taylor pointed out that the reduction issue was now the only means by which the people could keep the liquor traffic in check until no-license was carried, and now that it had proved so dangerous to "the trade it was to be removed from the voting papers, and nothing was to be inserted in its piace. Id the course of further discussion, Mr. Seddor said he was prepared to consider reasonable amendments on their merits. He could not say more than that. 7 He honestly believed that the Bill would get to the third reading (Mr. McNab: Hear, hear. Thursday night), and; that they would pass a very fail. Bill, which . would be a great improvement on existing legislation. , Mr. Laurenson said there had been no mandate from the people to eliminate the reduction issue, and that bring so the deprivation of power would be a retrograde step. f 7y; ,;; ' ' ;--• 7--' V- ; Duthie instanced the West Coast, where occasionally there was one hotel to every: 245 people, as a place in which the people should be given an opportunity to vote reduction.

Mr. Hawkins pointed out that the Premier had declared that the moderate party represented the great bulk of the people of the colony. These would be disfranchised under the present Bill. ; 7 ; Mr. EUI said the pec/plo had not had a fair warning that the *> power of reduction was to be taken away from them. i 7 Mr. Willis considered that the reduction vote had created enormous monopolies in hotel properties. ' 7 Mr. Seddon quoted figures to show that very few people outside the no-license party voted 'for reduction. The thousands of moderates that had been alluded to ■, were non-existent. They voted either for nolicense -or continuance. The reduction! that bad taken place at the will of the people had practically been a dead letter during the last two elections.

Air. Taylor: They cancelled 100 licenses last year. -;■';' That's what's hurting the trade. ; Messrs. T. Mackenzie, Moss, Kirkbride, and Harding spoke in support of the restoration of the reduction issue. Mr. A. Frascr thought that where a house was reduced compensation should be paid by these whose licenses benefited thereby. Th« discussion was interrupted by the half-past five p.m. adjournment. . The House resumed at half-past seven p.m.'.;.-. -- Mr. Seddon combated the assertion that the people had not expressed a desire for the elimination'of the reduction issue, contending that if a {provision in an Act of Parliament was not taken advantage of by the people it wae inoperative, and the silence of tho electors must be regarded as a protest against it. I Mr. Taylor offered to vote for the clause as it appeared in the Bill if the Premiei could find a single instance in which the nolicense party had favoured the elimination at the reduction issue, without stipulating that the licensing committees should have the power to reduce the number of licenses at their discretion. . The reduction issue was the only democratic issue which was on the ballot paper, inasmuch as reduction might be carried by a bare majority. Mr. Seddon, replying to Mi. Taylor's offer, said that in 1898 Mi. Millar had introduced a Licensing Acts Amendment .Bill, one clause of which proposed the elimination of the reduction issue, and the second reading had been supported by various members, including Mr. Massey. Amongst those who voted lor the clause in question was Mr. Taylor, one of the mouthpieces 01 the temperance party. Mr Duthie protested against the proposal k force a moderate to go against his will to the extreme length of voting for the removal of all licenses. Mr. Major spoke in favour (A. sweeping away the reduction issue, urging that a reduction of the number of hotels merely drove an increased trade to the remaining hotels. • Mr. Taylor, in a personal explanation, denied that he had voted tor the clause in Mr. Millar's Bill providing for the elimination ■ of the reduction issue. The Premier had misunderstood the division on the clause. ' Mi Seddon quoted from newspaper reports oi the discussion in committee on Mr. Millars Bill in 1898, in which Mr. Taylor was reported as having spoken in favour of the elimination of the reduction issue. He (Mr. Seddon) also quoted from the journals of the House to show that on a straightout, issuo Mr. Taylor had in 1898 voted against the reduction issue being included on the ballot paper. Mr. Tayloi explained that he had opposed the amendment quoted by Mr. Seddon in order to save the clause for certain amendments which he himself had intended to move. Mr. J. 0. Thomson said the Premier had hitherto always been a great advocate of the reduction issue. If the reduction issue was i unjust now, it had been unjust in the past, ' and the logical position therefore was that ; those hote,-keepere who had lost their licensee through reduction being carried had , a good claim lor compensation. Mr. Banan spok* in support of Mr. McNab , amendment. He objected to the power ol the people to regulate the liquor traffic being in any way curtailed. Mr. Jas. Allen 'contended that the reduction vote was? the one safeguard enjoyed ' by the people, to say that certain hotels were badly conducted. Mr. Seddon, 1 in the course of subsequent ! remarks, said tha.'. considering the abuse Oi power? by licensing committees* the (

Legislature ought to state definitely the house that should be closed, and not leave it to the committee. ' ' After further lengthy discussion, a division on Mr. McNab's amendment was taken at eleven p.m., with the result that the amendment was carried by 38 votes to 34. The following is the division list: — For the amendment (38): Aitken, ALisonE. Q. Allen, J. Allen, Arnold, Barber, Baume, Bedford, Bennet, Buchanan, Dutbie, Ell, Hall, Hanan, Harding, Hardy, Hawkins, Herdman, Kirkbride, Herries, Laurenson, Lethbridige, Mander, Massey, T. Mackenzie, * McLachlan, McNab, Moss, Reid, Remington, Rhodes, Sidey, Steward, Tanner, Taylor, J. O. Thomson, J. W. Thomson, Vile. Against the amendment (34): Bollard, Carroll, Colvin, Davey, Duncan, Field, Fisher. A. L. D. Eraser, W. Fraser. Graham, Hall-Jones, Heke, Hogg, Houston, Kaihau, Lang, Lawry, Major, McGowan, R Mcßenzie, Mills, Parata, Pere, Russell, Rutherford, Seddon, Smith, Svmes, Ward, Wilford, Willis, Witheford, Witty, Wood. Pair: For the amendment, Fowlds; against the amendment, Kidd. Mr. Flatman explained that, although he voted against the amendment, his name was not recorded on eithei division. The Chairman of Committees, therefore, ordered the number to be altered to 38—35. The insertion of the reduction vote necessitated certain amendments in the remaining machinery sub-clauses of clause 3. As to sub-section 4, Mr. Moss urged that the providing of numbered voting papers would make it easy to find out how a certain person voted, and he moved to strike out the sub-section. Mr. Seddon' pointed out that the corner of the paper would be gummed down, and no one could possibly tell how a person voted. The new system ot numbered voting papers would be an improvement on the existing system.. Considerable discussion took place as to the advisability or otherwise of numbering the /oting papers, and as to whether or not it would destroy the secrecy of the ballot. On a division Mr. Moss' amendment was lost by 39 to 34, 'Ihe remaining sub-clauses were altered to brhifc, them into conformity with the reinsertion of the reduction vote. The proposals that clause 3 as amended be added to the Bill was then rejected by 52 voteu to 20. , J Clause 4 (counting the votes), clause 5 ! (form of declaration of poll), clause 6 (effect of a poll in a district where licenses exist), and clause 7 (effect of poll in a district where no licenses exist), were then struck out on the voices, on the motion of the Premier, who explained that the excision of these clauses was rendered necessary by the ;trikintr out of clause 3. Mr. Seddon stated that consideration of the Bill would not be resumed until Thursaay, to-morrow being private members' day. . :;' .' ■ •

On Mr. Seddon's motion progress was then reported on the Bill, and the JEEouse rose at five minutes to one a.m.

NOTES ON THE DEBATE-

MR. TAYLOR AND THE PREMIER. [BY telegraph.—special CORRESPONDENT.] Wellington, Tuesday. The discussion on the Licensing Bill started to-day with a brush between the Premier and Mr. T. E. Taylor. Mr. McNab moved to retain the reduction issue on the ballot naper, and the Premier rose to chaff Mr. McNab on having himself taken the reduction issue out of a Bill he introduced in 1895. Mr. Taylor then accused the Premier of making a deliberate misstatement on the subject. He said Mr. McNab, in 1895. proposed to leave but the reduction issue from the ballot paper, but on condition that full power to. reduce be given to the licensing Committees. The Premier, he said, knew that, but endeavoured to mislead the House. He appealed to the Premier, whatever his usual habit might be. to practice veracity in discussing this Bill. ,;-,.--'■:■■■■■;:- : : - ' The Premier said he must, appeal to the chair to protect him from the personalities and impertinence of Mr. Taylor. He had been accused of want of veracity. The Chairman (Mr. Millar) expressed the hope that members would carefully guard their language.' * ' Mr. Taylor said he would respect the Chairman's ruling. All he wanted to show was that Mr. McNab's Bill of 1895 proposed to re-enact the .powers of reduction on a more liberal basis. ' The-Premier said he did not admit it. PROSPECTS OF, THE BILL. Some members of the Housn ventured to express doubts to-day as to whether the Licensing Bill would ever reach, its third reading. ■ ' "I believe honestly," declared the Premier, in reply, " that we will get to the third reading." ■ Mr. McNab: "Hear, hear." On Thursdav night. * ' The Premier said he believed the House would pass a very fair Bill, and that it would be a, great improvement on the existing law. - _ . PARTY. The Premier declared to-day that, as far as the Licensing Bill was concerned, there was no party.. He was prepared to deal with reasonable amendments on their merits, and ever- member of the House had absolutely a free hand. THE MODERATE MAN. Much was said in the House to-night concerning the great moderate party, which brought Mr. Fisher to his feet to demand, "Who is this man of moderate opinion." "Give me,' he said, "the extremist, one side or the other. I would not give a snap of the finger for any man of moderate opinion. There must be opposing armies. Say on whioh side vou are, and let me know what you are, and I will know how to deal with you."

CONSOLIDATION OF LICENSING LAW.

The Premier was asked to-night why he did not bring down a Bill to consolidate the licensing law. He said the Government contemplated introducing . a Consolidating Licensing Bill, but they knew it would bo impossible to get sucl a Bill through the House. They had, however, the machinery for consolidating the licensing law in the Compilation ot Statutes Commission, and it was their work to consolidate the licensing law. His idea war to get a Bill through the House amending known defects in the licensing law, and when that was done to pass a resolution directing the Statutes Compilation Commission to consolidate the statutes. He asked in embers to help him in removing the defects from the law. AN EXCITING DIVISION. The committee discussion on the Licensing Bill was not particularly lively to-night, but there wa.s a good deal of suppressed excitement, the House being well aware that the division on the proposal to eliminate the reduction issue would be a very close pie. It was impossible, even up to the last moment, for either side to judge correctly how the vote would go, as a number of members who had not very strong feelings either way found it difficult to strike the balance in their minds between the advantages and disadvantages in the Premier's proposal. The vote might have been reached earlier, but some members wen returning by the evening trains from there week-end trips home, and the no-license party were careful to keep the talk going in order to secure the votes,of some members who were in the train. When the division bell rang the "ayes" and tho " noes " were pretty evenly divided, and even when member? walked into the lobbies it was difficult to judge which side held the balance. The whole of the Maori vote was cast for the Premier's proposal. There was loud applause when the Chairman announced that the proposal to continue the reduction issue in the ballot paper, moved by Mr. McNab, had been carried by 38 votes to 34.

Just after the division, Mr. Flatman stated that he was in the House and voted, and his vote was not recorded. The division list was accordingly altered, making the majority three. Mr. Fowlds and Mi. Kidd were paired, the former for and the latter against Mr. McNab's proposal. Messrs. Buddo, Jennings, and Lewis were absent unpaged. Mr. Guinness did not vote, and Mr. Millar was in the chair. The ab.senlees could not have ."fleeted the result, as Mr. Buddo is on the no-license side, and he and Mi. Fowlds would have made the vote against the Premier'," proposal, 40, which, with one member in the chair, is a majority oi the House. Some members now express tht opinion that tat Premier will recognise

the hopelessness of getting the main clauses of the Bill through, and that little more will be heard •of it. Mi. Seddon, * however, stated that he intends to go on with the Bill ; again on ; Thursday, when clause 9 will come on for consideration. THE DAY'S WORK. ;- The House spent nearly the whole of today discussing clause 3, which proposed to eliminate the reduction, issue from the ballot paper on polling day. The reduction issue was inserted in the clause i on the motion of Mr. McNab, but when the clause as amended was "ut to the House, the whole clause was struck out, the Premier voting against it. There is, therefore, no provision in the Bill for the taking of : the local option polk, which are, of course, provided for in the Alcoholic Liquors Sale Control Act. Clause 3 having been struck out, clauses 4 to 7 inclusive were also struck out at the Premier's request, the day's work being, that clauses 1 and 2 (short title and interpretation) are passed, and the five following clauses are struck out. The Premier stated that section 8 of the Bill as it stood would interfere with the Port Chalmers vote, which was a question now before the Privy Council. He would move to amend the clause by inserting the words " valid poll " so as not to interfere with this matter. '■ ■ HOTEL LEASES. M». Moss proposes to add to the Licensing Bill a new clnjse providing that no committee shall have jurisdiction to grant a license, or the renewal of a license, to any j person except the owner of the premises, j unless he produces a lease of the premises Tor the term of the license, at a rental not exceeding 20 per cent, per annum of the true value of the premises free from all rates, taxs, and insurance, and free from conditions respecting his purchase of any commodity. LABELLED LIQUOR. , Mr. Moss also gave notice of a new clause in the Bill to provide that every bottle, cask, or othei receptacle holding liquor exposed for sale shall have affixed to it a, list of all .the substances or chemicals used in the manufacture of the liquor. He proposes a penalty of £100 for exposing liquor not so labelled, and also that no debt incurred for unkibelled liquoi shall be recoverable in Court. A PRESBYTERIAN VIEW. [by telegraph. PßESS ASSOCIATION.] Oauabu, Tuesday. The Oamaru Presbytery, to-day, sitting as the Temperance Committee of bhe Presbyterian Church of New Zealand, unanimously adopted a motion to the effect that they strongly protested against the retrogressive and wholly uncalled-for features of the Licensing Bill now before Parliament, especially condemning—(l) the deletion of reduction issue which wrought much good in some districts (2) the no-license no-liquor clause which had never been asked for by any representative section of the community, but steadily and decidedly opposed ; (3) the Government distribution of liquor in nolicense districts, which wa3 an attempt to over-ride the expressed will of the people, and burdens the country with, the trouble of distribution ; and (4) the proposal to take a vote on the question of State control proposal to legislate where no legislation has been asked for. The committee expressed the hope that Parliament would remove these undesirable and largely confusing features from the Bill, and pass it in a form that will make the will of the people, when legally ascertained, effective.

METHODIST CHURCH PROTESTS. * [BY TELEGRAPH.PRESS ASSOCIATION.] Dunkdin, Tuesday. At a meeting. of . the Temperance and Morals Committee of the New Zealand Methodist Church, held this afternoon to deal with the Licensing Bill, resolutions were unanimously carried, protesting, on behalf of the Methodist Church of New Zealand, against the elimination of the reduction vote, and objecting most strongly to the clause dealing with no-license no-liquor, the distribution of liquor in no-license areas through Government agents, and the proposal for a vote of the neople on State control. It was also decided to bring before every member of the House the" urgent necessity for passing the Local Elections Act Amendment Bill. A GISBOBNE MEETING. [BY TELEGRAPH.—OWN CORRESPONDENT".] *:■.....•.-.• Gisbornb, Tuesday. l * At a meeting to-day of the council of the Waiapu women, the following resolutions were carried unanimously:'.' That while regarding with much satisfaction the amendments of the present licensing laws, such as those contained in clauses 39, 48, 49, 50, 52, 53, 54, 57, 58, and 59, of the Bill now before Parliament, this council strongly deprecates the unwarrantable and altogether undemocratic interference , with the wishes of the people (as expressed repeatedly and with increasing emphasis at the licensing polls of the past), contained in clauses 6, 9, 10. 24, of the same Bill; that unless the Government can be induced to drop such attempts to'foist the demands of an interested minority on the colony, Parliament be respectfully petitioned to retaliate by the rejection* of the whole measure; that the secretary be requested to send copies of the above resolutions to the Premier, the Hon. J. Carroll, and the press of the colony." STATE CONTROL. [BY TELEGRAPH.PRESS ASSOCIATION.] NelsoNj Tuesday, A large meeting was held to-night in opposition to State control. The platform was occupied by Methodist, Baptist, and Church of Christ clergy, and others. The chief speakers were the Revs. Williams, Reader, and Franklyn, Miss Powell, and Mr. Pettit. Telegrams were received from the president of the Methodist Conference and the president of the Baptist Union, expressing themselves against State control, and wishing the meeting success. No resolution was put. A second meetine in favour of State control will be held on Friday.