AUCKLAND PRESBYTERY.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XIX, Issue 6570, 7 December 1882, Page 6

AUCKLAND PRESBYTERY.

The ordinary meeting ot Presbytery was held yesterday, the Very Rev. W. Evans (Moderator) in the: chair. Present: Revs. Messrs. Macky, Dunn, Carrick, Monro, J. Bruce, Norrie, Fraser, McLeod, and Sommerville (clerk of Piesbytery.) AGED AND INFIRM MINISTERS' FCND. The Revs. Messrs. Fraser, Macky, Monro, and Carrick reported that the collections for this fund had been held in their several churches. FOREIGN MISSIONS. The Rev. Mr. Carrick, Elder Macky, and other members of the Presbytery reported that collections had been made. MAORI MISSIONS. The Clerk announced that the General Assembly had ordered that the collection for this fund should be taken up on the first Sabbath in February, ISS3. The Moderator thought it desirable that some means should be taken to give more information to the people in respect to the various church schemes. The consequence of not having sufficient information was that the funds in some cases languished. The Rev. Mr. Macky thought that the means of information of which the people might avail themselves were already considerable. The Church News gave very full information on most of the schemes. Mr. Treadwell's circular was in the hands of most of the brethren. The Moderator described the advantages which might accrue from more perfect i orgauization of the means of recommending the various church schemes. Sales, sheepshearing, harvest time, and other seasons would suggest the form and manner of the resommendation. The Rev. T. Norrie thought Mr. Treadwell's letter contained valuable information. The Rev. Mr. So.umerville thought the suggestions of the Moderator were worthy of consideration. ST. ANDREW'S TARANAKI MR. BREACHES

CASE. The Clerk read a letter from Mr. Breach, tendering his resignation. Taranaki, October 30,1552. Auckland Presbytery. Gentlemen, —By accident I saw in the newspaper that the chief business at your last quarterly meeting had reference to the Taranaki charge. Kv.dently frorn it, a number of moct malicious and w.trutlij'ul rf/orts were entertained and discussed then, contrary to section 3 of chapter (i of your printed rules, for I received no intimation till after your meeting was held, and all this reported in the newspapers. And when our committee resolved that I should send the following telegram—viz, "Myself and committee request immediate, full, and explicit statement of charges proposed for investigation by you," your clerk very coully replied, "that no charges nave yet been formatted !" Not being able to go to your proposed meeting, for tluse and othei reasons, which are put into the hands of my committee, and which they are at liberty to make what use of they please, I hereby tender my resignation of being an}' longer a member of your denomination.—l retuain. gentlemen, yours, faithfully.—M. Somes Beach.

The Moderator : My opinion is that he has placed himself beyond the reach of the Presbytery. Membership is a voluntary act. Persons withdrawing from membership placed themselves beyond reach of the Church.

Dr. McLeod : I do not think that a person in Mr. Breach's relation to the Church could be a fugitive from discipline. Such a person might resign, but that resignation did not interfere with the operation of the law of the Church.

The Rev. McKenzie Ff.aser : The date of that letter is important, and influences my opinion. It is pt-feetly true that a man cannot be a fugitive from discipline. The law of the Church reaches such a person. You have cited Mr. Breach before this Court, and you cannot allow your citation to fall through. You will, however, recollect that the date of that letter is the 30th of October. Now you did not commence to take action in this matter until November. If that view of the matter be correct, he was not under discipline.

The Rev. Mr. Macky said there ayas an interim reception of a second letter, which might influence the judgment of the Court. The letter should be read.

The Rev. Mr. Rcncimak : You will observe that Mr. Breach not only resigns, but he retires from our denomination altogether. Whether there would be any advantage in following a man outside of the denomination was a consideration for the Presbytery. There was no ill-feeling towards Mr. Breach. He might be allowed, if it so pleased him, to have all the happiness he could obtain in gome other communion.

The Rev. R. Somsiirvillk (Clerk) : The second letter might require some notice to be taken of it. This was more especially the case, seeing that Mr. Breach had made unfounded statements in the newspapers. These statements were scattered broadcast through the country. It might be desirable that they should not pass unnoticed.

The Rev. Mr. Rcnciman' : I recollect a highly-respected Scottish minister saying that the greatest compliment you could pay a person was to make him believe that he was capable of insulting you. The Presbytery, or any member of it, should not pay Mr. Breach the compliment of supposing that anything he could say or write would aifect their character.

The Clerk of Presbytery read the second letter, a copy of which has appeared in the Herald.

The Rev. Mr. Munro thought no notice should be taken of the second letter, which Mr. Breach had caused to be first published in the newspapers.

The Rev. Mr. Rcnciman said : Resignation is sometimes a very convenient mode of settling a difficult question. The present case is one in which a solution of the difficulty might be found by accepting this resignation. I shall move that the resignation be accepted. As matters of this kind are usually dealt with by the oldest members of Presbytery, I should rather like that the Rev. Mr. Macky should move the resolution.

The Rev. Mr. Macky : I only hesitated through a merciful consideration for Mr. Breach. It appears to me it would have bean well if the whole of this matter had been dealt with by the General Assembly,

Moved by the Rev. Mr. J. Mackt, seconded by the Rev. Mr. Rcnciuan, "That Mr. Breach's resignation be accepted."

The Rev. McKenzii Fraper : Mr. Breach, in his letter, retires from the denomination altogether. It might be added to the resolution, that the Presbytery declares Mr. Breach is no longer a minister of the Presbyterian body.

The Rev. J. Bkuce : Have we power to do that ?

The Rev. Mr. Sommervillk : There is no doubt we have. The addendum proposed by the Rev. Mr. Fraser was exactly in the same form as came to my own mind. It might take this form that Mr. Breach's resignation be accepted in the terms of his letter of the 30th of October, and that he be declared no longer a minister of the Presbyterian body.

The resolution so amended was put from the chair, and carried.

Dr. McLeod : I appeal to the Assembly from this decision. lam of opinion that Mr. Breach is a fugitive from discipline, and that he is in contumacy. He has been contumacious throughout the whole of this matter.

The Rev. McKenzie Fraser : I think the effect of the course proposed by Dr. McLeod would complicate the matter. The Assembly would not thank the Presbytery for sending this matter before it.

Dr. McLeod : There is a more important consideration than mere convenience. There is the question of the purity of the Church.

The Rev. Mr. Rcnciuan : Dr. McLeod had a right to bring the matter before the General Assembly. But it would be a very great pity.

The Rev. McKenzie Fraser : Does Dr. McLeod wish to overturn the decision just come to?

Dr. McLkod : Decidedly I do. Ido not think that my action can be the subject of criticism until the reasous for it are given. The Rev. Mr. Carkice : I regret that Dr. McLeod will not forego his intention to appeal. Silence on the present occasion will be more emphatic, and peace will be secured. I have suffered in this matter quite as much as Dr. McLeod.

Dr. McLeod : Purity of the Church stands before convenience, and even before peace. If Mr. Breach were declared to he no longer a " member" of the Presbyterian Church, I would be disposed to agree with it. The Rev. Mr. Mo.nko .- It is quite evident that Dr. McLeod his determined to appeal. We should go on with business. The Rev. Mr. Runcima.v : Dr. McLeod should recollect that it is open to any other member of the Presbytery to object in the Assembly that to entitle a person to appeal he should have moved an amendment to the resolution. It is open to Dr. McLeod to move an amendment now.

The Rev. Mr. Mackt : Unless an amendment were moved by the person so giving notice of appeal, the Presbytery would be justified in ordering that the notice of appeal be not entertained, because there was no re-

cord on the minutes of such an amendment. The Rev. McKenzie Fka.'jer : Dr. McLeod should recollect that the effect of notice of appeal, if accepted, is to stay execution until the appeal shall have been decided. Is Dr. McLeod ready to aceept the responsibility of retaining Mr. Breach in Xew Plymouth as a minister of the Presbyterian Church until judgment should be given by the Assembly ? The Rev.Mr. R.cnciman :By the Victorian rules, paragraph 20, it appears that only a person who has voted can give notice of appeal. Dr. McLeod could not have voted, as there was no amendment or countermotion. Dr. McLeod : I voted upon the resolution, and was in the minority. The Moderator : I have had much experience a 8 Moderator of Presbyteries for twelvemonths continuously, and I do not remember having had so much trouble. The Rev. Mr. Munro : If Dr. McLeod proceeds as he is doing in this matter I shall move that he be censured. The Rev. McKenzie Fraser : I shall move, if this sort of thing continues— Dr. McLeod : You may go on. The Rev. McKenzie Fraser : I am greatly indebted to Dr. McLeod for his condescension. (Laughter.) I shall move that these objections of Dr. McLeod are frivoloas and vexatious. Dr. McLeod : I am standing up for the purity of the Church, and while doing so I am borne down by what I think i 3 an unrighteous proceeding. In any case, I can approach the Assembly by petition. (Hear, hear.)

The Rev. Mr. Carrick : Dr. McLeod evidently regards his notice of appeal as in the nature of a vote. But a vote must precede notice of appeal.

Dr. McLeod : I say that my appeal conserves the purity and law of the Church. The Rev. Mr. Fraser : I rise to a point of order. Dr. McLeod (still standing)) I also have a point of order. . The Rev. Mr. Fraser : Sit down, Sir ! Dr. McLeod : I stand up for the law and purity of the Church. The Rev. Mr. Monro : When a member of Presbytery rises to order the speaker should sit, and the decision of the Moderator is final. The Rev. Mr Fraser: On the plea of liberty Dr. McLeod has been abusing the time and patience of the Presbytery. There has been more ill-feeling, moreill-blocd, more raising of petty questions during the last three months than during the period of the whole history of the Presbyterian Church in New Zealand. I therefore move, " That Dr. McLeod's appeal be regarded as frivolous and vexatious." The Rev. Mr. Mon.xo : I second that motion. Dr. McLeod : I want Mr. Fraser to withdraw these words. They are a public insult to me. It is libellous. If the newspapers publish it it will be libellous. The Rev. Mr. Mackt : It is true. I can testify to that. Dr. McLeod : "I move that my appeal is calculated to conserve the purity and law of the Church." [This motion was not seconded.] The Rer. Mr. Monro : I have been six years a member of this Presbytery, and I never saw such a scene in this Presbytery. Elder Bell : I must say that there" has been great want of respect to the other members of the Presbytery shown by Dr. McLeod.

Dr. McLf.od : This is black-balling me, It is taking advantage of the law of Presbytery to oppress me. It is a disgrace.

The Rev. Mr. RnxciiiA.v : The first thing Dr. McLeod should have done was to move an amendment. The Clerk asked whether there was any amendment ? Dr. McLeod said he did not intend to move an amendment. I)r. McLeod : I qualified what I said. But I voted with the minority. The Rev. Mr. Runciman : Dr. McLeod is a Highlander, and I am sure he does not mean to hurt anybody. Dr. McLeod : I object to that observation. The Rev. Mr. Runciman" : I should like to give Dr. McLeod the opportunity of appealing. It is a maxim of the Scottish Church Courts that everyone, however humble, should have access to its Courts. The Rev. Mr. Carrick : If Dr. McLeod voted, his vote must have been mental. The Rev. Peter Mason" : I shall move an amendment upon Mr. Fraser's resolution, " That Dr. McLeod's notice of appeal being irregular, it be not considered." The Rev. Mr. Frasek : I shall withdraw my amendment in favour of Mr. MasonVs if the Presbytery will allow it (withdrawn). The Rev. Mr. Runciman.' : I shall move an amendment upon Mr. Mason's motion, "That having lost his rkht of appeal by- inadvertence. Dr. McLeod be allowed ex gratia to record his appeal." The Rev. Mr. Mason" : I shall withdraw my motion. The Clerk : The Presbytery has to decide whether Mr. Mason shall be allowed to withdraw. Motion put that Mr. Mason be allowed to withdraw his motion. Negatived by S to ">. The Rev. Mr. Rcnciman's amendment was put and negatived by S to 6. The Rev. Mr. Mason'.s motion was put, and agreed to. The Rev. Mr. Rr.vciMA.v : Now I shall ask that my dissent be recorded aud that I complain to the General Assembly. UNION" WITH THE CIIUKCH OF OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND. Tiie returns of Kirk session upon the basis of the proposed union were laid on the table. The general effect of them was that union was desirable, but objection was made to the Supreme Court of the Church being fixed in Dunedin.

The Rev. J. Mackt moved "That having considered the basis of union and the returns of Kirk session thereaneut the Presbytery resolves that union with the Church of Otago aud Southland is desirable, and it believes the basis of union proposed by the Synod of Otago and Southland, as amended by the uuion committee of the General .Assembly, would be, in present circumstances, a good and workable basis."— Agreed to. ELLERSLIE ASD EPSOM. On the motion of the Rev. Mr. Monro, seconded by the Rev. Mr. Rcsoiuas, the thanks o: the Presbytery were given to Mr. Barton, and the o,uestion of supply was referred to the Church Extension Committee. riTER THAMES. It was resolved to retain the services of Mr. Rey-'urn (a third year's student in Arts) for this district. It was agreed that the Rev. Mr. Niel should visit the district, to settle some matters in did'erence between certain portions of the congregation. KAIWAKA. A petition was received from eleven adherents, asking that the pulpit be supplied by some youu>; man. who should reside, and take Maugapai and Mangawai as part of his district. The petition and some accompanying letters were referred to the local committee, asking them to devise some further means of pulpit supply.