GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XVIII, Issue 6150, 3 August 1881, Page 6

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[BY TELEGRAPH.—PRESS ASSOCIATION.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, licensing bill.

The Legislative Council met at_2.3o p.m., and immediately went into committee on the Licensing Bill. Mr. Whitaker gave notice to strike out all the clauses concerning clubs, and to insert a series of new clauses far more favourable to clubs than those in the Bill as it came from the Lower House. Several minor amendments were made, and there w.is au animated debate on clause 12, providing for elective licensing benches. Mr. Miller moved its rejection, but tno elective principle was carried by 19 to 9. For the elective principle : Ackland, iJretc, P. Buckley, Chamberlain, Dignan, Fraser, Grace, Henderson, Holmes, G. Johnson, Martin, Menzies, Peacock, Pharazyn, Scotland, Waterhouse, Whitaker, Williamson, and Wilson. , For the nominative system : Hart, .Lanmann, Miller, Nurse, Peters, Pollen, Reynolds, Richmond, and Wood. The Council adjourned from 5 to 7.30 p.m. The Council resumed at 7.30, and sat till 10 p. mi, when it had reached clause 134,0f the Licensing Bill, numerous unimportant amendments being made, and several clauses postponed. Progress was then reported, the committee to resume to-morrow.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Tuesday. Iho House met at 2.30.

KAILWATS CONSTRUCTION BILL. Mr. H*ll gave notice that he would ask leave to introduce the Railways Construction Bill.

TOWN DISTRICTS BILL. Mr. Dick gave notice that he would ask leave to introduce the Town Districts Bill.

THE REDUCTION ON SALARIES. Sir G. Grey gave notice that he would ask if the 10 per cent, reduction had been made from Civil Servants' salary last month, and, if so. by what authority ? THE £300 PAID TO MR. REES. A communication was received from the Auditor-General stating that the sum of £300 illegally paid to \V. L. Reee had not Ired been refunded.

Mr. Hall moved that the communication be referred to the Publis Accounts Committee. Mr. Stewart objected to this matter being kept constantly cropping up in the House. The cost of it, between printing and debating, had been far in excess of the sum claimed. It was beneath the dignity of the House to be constantly troubled with this matter. It should be left to the law officers to advise what should be done.

Mr. JOH>'STO>r agreed that it had been already too often before the House. The Auditor - General, however, was not an officer of the Government, and they had no control over him. Ho had seen fit to refer the point to this House, and the Government was in no way responsible for his action. The motion was agreed to. WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE REPORTS. Mr. Bunny brought up the following reports :—From the Waste Lands Committee on the East Coast Land Districts Bill, and the Lands Act, 1577, Amendment Bill, recommending that the same be passed without amendment; on the petition of the Thames County Council, praying that an inquiry may be instituted into the nature of certain titles of timber leases; that the eommittee does not see its way to recommend any interference, and recommend the petitioners, if they feel aggrieved, to take such steps as they may be advised to test the validity of the leases. AUCKLAND RAILWAY EMPLOYES. Eeplying to Mr. Harris, Mr. Hall said the Government would cause inquiry to be made in Auckland into the grievance of the railway employes there, in respect of pay due them to the date of the 10 per cent, reduction, with a view to redress of their grievances. THE ARMS ACT. Replying to Mr. Sdtton, Mr. Johnston said the Government ■would inquire into the alleged impossibility of obtaining convictions for breaches of the Arms Act, in consequence of the very severe punishments provided, with the view of having the punishment made commensurate with the offence. ' TELEGRAPH OPERATORS. In replying to Mr. Pyke, Mr. Johnston said that inquiries would be made into the condition of affairs existing at small telegraph stations, with the view of relieving the operators from duty on Sundays. THE TWO ALEXANDRAS. Keplying to Mr. Pstje, Mr. Johsston said that with the view of preventing confusion, instructions would be given to designate Alexandra (Otago) Alexandra South, so as to distinguish it from Alexandra in Auckland. PRECAUTIONS AGAI.VST SMALL-POX. Replying to Mr. McCaughan, Mr. Dick said Government considered the precautions already adopted in view of the spread of small-pox in New South Wales and Queensland were sufficient, and they would not suspend for the present all communication with the port of Sydney. SALARY OF ARCHITECT AT AUCKLAND, Keplying to Mr. Murray, Mr. Dick said that, in addition to the salary of £225 per annum, the architect of the Auckland Board of Education received a commission of 2A per cent, and travelling expenses on work executed under his supervision. LANDLORD AST) TENANT LAW. Replying to Mr. Swanson, Mr. Hall said Government deemed the aw a3 it existed between landlord and tenant unsatisfactory, and that if time permitted step 3 would be taken this session to remedy the evil. THE REPRESENTATION DILL. Mr. Hall moved for leave to introduce a Bill to readjust the representation of the people. Mr. Barron moved as an addition, "That it be a recommendation to Governmerit in framing the Bill that the present number of representatives should not be exceeded." He disclaimed all intention of raising any party question, stating that he moved the amendment in accordance with a general feeling prevailing throughout the House. Mr. Hall said that the unusual circumstances under which the amendment was proposed, as also its unusual character, compelled him to suggest that it should not be passed. It would hardly be doing justice to the amendment itself. It was one requiring debate and consideration, and that could be best given on the second reading of the Bill. - Mr. Brown spoke in favour of the amendment being pressed. It would be well to give the Government such an expression of their opinion as would guide them in framing the measure. Instead of the number, he thought it would be very wise to reduce it to say. sixty members instead of the number returned at present, ,' ; . Mr. BowEN-agreea in the inconvenience of discussing the point at. present. Ho thought great injustice-would arise from having too few representatives. Over - representation was no doubt attended with' serious inconvenience. On the other hand, under-repre-aentation would be attended with still more serious consequences. Mr. Levestam concurred in the inexpediency of the question being discussed at

present. He also objected to the opinions of a district caucus being thus used to influence Government in preparing measures. Mr. MACANUREW denied that the intention was to influence Government by ft district caucus. He thought this an eligible opportunity for discussing the point. He was in favour of the number of the representatives being reduced. The whole framework of the Bill would depend on the number of members to be provided for. Mr Shephard, without committing himself in any way, denied that an increase m the number of representatives would necessarilv delay the despatch of business. Within the last few years the representation had been largely increased, and yet the length of the session had not increased within the last twelve or fourteen years. He agreed as to the inexpediency of the amendment being discussed at this time. Mr. Moss contended that the present was the most opportune time for settling the point. If they waited until the Bill had been brought down and the motion for second reading brought on, a motion of this kind would be accepted as a vote of want-of-corifidence. At the same time it was absolutely necessary that the point raised should be fully discussed. If the Government was strong enough to establish an efficient system of local government forty members would be quite, sufficient for that I House. ' ' ' . I Mr. Andrews said this persistent opposition was a mere subterfuge to prevent the Bill coming forward at all. He J™"'" oppose the amendment, so as to get the Bill before them as soon as possible. Sir G. Grey suggested, if the Government would accept it, that the debate should be adjourned. The amendment had taken many of them by surprise. • He moved a motion to that effect. ■ ' Mr. Hall opposed the adjournment, reiterating that the present was not the proper time to discuss the point. That had been shown by the whole tone"of the debate. Mr. DeLautour did not think :that the Government would allow any alteration to be made if once the Bill was brought down. This was the only opportunity they woulc have of binding Government in framing this Bill. Once it was brought down they would find Government_put_their foot down in asking their supporters to assist them in passing it without material change. He hoped the amendment would not be withdrawn". Mr. Montgomery was opposed to an increase of the number of members, but he objected to the amendment being pressed at this time. • Mr. Sheehan thought that 88 members were sufficient for the work. Still he was not prepared to reduce the number as had been proposed. Government was to blame for this discussion, because they had exhibited a plan of the proposed readjustment of districts to certain members. What he proposed was that the schedule of the Bill should be submitted at the earliest possible moment, in order that all doubt on the subject might be removed. It would be impossible to alter these schedules once they were brought down in the Bill. By following thp cour3e he proposed, it would enable members to assist the Government in passing the Bill, instead- of having it, ae was very probable, indefinitely postponed. The motion for adjournment was put and negatived on the voices. • Mr. Speight thought if Government would give an assurance that they would divest the discussion of all party considerations, then they would have no difficulty in making a good workable Bill that would pass without much difficulty. He was afraid that no proposal would be looked upen as satisfactory unless it relegated to the representatives of localities the opportunity of having a say in the fixing of electoral boundaries. He also spoke in favour of the proposal for restricting the number proposed. Question - put that the amendment stand part of the motion:—Ayes, 22; noes, 40. The following was the division list:—Ayes : Messrs. Barron, Brown, De Lautour, Finn, J. B. Fisher (Buller), Grey, W. J. Hurst (City of Auckland West), Hutchison, Macandrew, Montgomery, Moss, Murray, Reid, Saunders, Shrimski, Speight, Stewart, Swanson, Taiaroa, Thomson, , Tole, and Wallis. Noes :' Messrs. Andrews, Atkinson, Bain, Bowen, Brandon, Bryce, Bunny, Colbeck, Dick, J. T. Fisher (Heathcote), Fox, Fulton, Gibbs," ' Gisborne, Hall, H. Hirst (Wallace), Hursthouse, Kelly, Levestam, Levin, Lundon, McCaughau, McDonald, McLean, Pitt, Richardson, Rolleston, Seddon, Seymour," Shephard, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Tawhai, Trimble, Turnbull, Wakefield, Whitaker, White, Wright. Pairs: For—Harris, Jones, George; against, Beetham, Russell, Johnston. '

The Bill was introduced and read a first time. "

The House adjourned at 5.30 i The House resumed at 7.30. SEEDS OF INDIGENOUS PLANTS.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, it was agreed, on the motion of Mr. Bowen, that a sum of £200 should be appropriated for preserving seeds and roots of valuable indigenous plants likely to become extinct on Euahine, Tararua, and other ranges. SUPPLY —THE ESTIMATES. In Committee of Supply, to consider the estimates, Class 4, Postal and Telegraph, £227,650, Mr. Johnston said that by the amalgamation of these two services they had been enabled to dispense with the services of 31 officers, saving in salaries alone £5931, and in other respects the saving had been equally great. In all they had been enabled to bring down a sum this year less by £37,000, compared with those of the previous year; that the saving had been effected without in the least impairing the efficiency of the service.

Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Turnbnll, and Sir George Grey complained that, as the estimates had only been in the hands of members for a couple hours, they should not be gone on with until time had been allowed for their perusal. The form of having the whole class in one vote was also objectionable.

Mr. McLean said that no mature consideration was needed for this particular vote. It was evident they could not make any change, however long they might preside over them. There might be departments come up that required more mature consideration. When they came up it would be time enough to consider the proposal for postponement. Mr. Eichardson agreed that no discusBi'on could possibly be provoked in this clause. In reply to a question put by Mr. Montgomery, Mr. Johnston said that the 10 per cent, reductions had been practically abandoned, but reductions had been otherwise made in accordance with the circumstances of each case. The salaries had been fixed at what was fair, and would be paid as voted. Mr. Ballanob said it was not fair to expect them to deal with these salaries in this off-hand way.. . Time ought to be allowed them to consider the point. Mr. Macandrew ' concurred in that opinion,' and suggested that progress be reported. : * '■ . ' Mr. J. B. Fisher supported the motion for reporting progress. ':,. ."-/-; : -'■-' Mr. Reeves suggested that if the Government insisted on going on that members on hie side of the House should leave, and allow them to do as they pleased. Mr. Stewart moved, "That progress be reported." He blamed the Government for

attempting to force the estimates on upon ] such afvery ahort notice. They, had been a considerable period in session, and the time had been frittered away in dealing ■with Bills of little or no use, ana then to come down and insist upon them dealing with £3,000,000 -without giving them time for reflection was most extraordinary, and he ventured to say unparalleled in the history of Parliamentary procedure. Mr. McLean pointed out that they could pick out any item to which they might think tit to object, and he saw no reason for the -postponement. ■ ■ Mr. Hall said it was a mistake to say the Government attempted to force on the estimates. He contended that the proper time to have objected was when they moved that the House' go into Committee of Supply. No objection having been made, Government concluded that the committee was ready to go on with the estimates. If desired Government would not object to the postponement. . Mr. Sheehan said if the Government would agree to- a subdivision of the various departments of the class, so as to enable them to discuss the various items, he could promise them that the Opposition would be prepared to back them up m the reductions they proposed. The question for reporting progress was put and carried. : . INSPECTION OF MACHINERY.

The Inspection ef Machinery Bill was introduced by message from the Legislative Council, and read a farst time. GASIINO AND LOTTERIES HILL. The Gaming and Lotteries Bill was further considered in committee. ■.. . _; Clause 24: Police may enter premises where billiards, &c, are played. The'clause was amended by the other games mentioned being excised, and passed. •'■* '■ ■ Mr. 3. B. Fisher : moved that progress be reported, giving as his opinion that the Bill was not required; that it was' never seriously meant to pass it, and that, if passed, it would be a most unjustifiable interference with private life. Mr. Dick stated emphatically that the Bill was urgently demanded by the country, nnd that it was seriously meant to pass it. He opposed the motion to report progress. Negatived on the voices. ' l Clause 25 : Penalties for obstructing conetables authorised to enter suspected houses. The term of imprisonment was, on the motion of Mr. Stewart, reduced from six to three months. ■■.."■

Clause 28 : Penalty for keeping gaminghouse. Altered from twelve to three months' imprisonment. • '■ Clause 29 : Justices may require persons apprehended to give evidence. Mr. DeLautour moved that the clause be struck out.

The House divided on thequestionthat the clause stand as printed. Ayes, 30; noes, 24. '■■'.■:, ■ ■:

Mr. Reeves moved that 'progress be reported. ■ . . , , Mr. J. B. Fisher supported the motion, stating that the policy of the Government appeared to be to make 'every person they possibly could criminals. The Bill was quite unnecessary, and, with the exception of Otago, there was no demand for it.. The House divided. Ayes, 19 ; noes, 37. Clause 30 was passed without amendment. Clause 44: Appropriation of penalties amended so as to leave it discretionary with the judge to allocate a portion of the penalty to informer or not. Clauses 46 and 47 were struck out. Clause 48 : Mr. Siiepiiard moved it be struck out. Question put that it bo retained : Ayes, 22; noes, 18. ' Mr. Dick moved the addition of the folfowing amendments after paragraph 1, section S : Every person who uses, exhibits, or keeps any book, paper, writing, or other means, or substance, for the purpose of entering, recording, or noting any bet, wager, or game for any purpose by this Act declared to be unlawful, or who invites, solicits, or procures any person to bet, or make any such game as aforesaid, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed by this section. After section 2S the following new clause -.—After the passing of this Act it shall not: be lawful for any person to print or publish, or permit or suffer to be printed or published, any notice, handbill, placard, card, or advertisement, for the purpose of inviting attention to or in any way making public any reference to any combination, transaction, undertaking, agreement, subscription, or any other matter or.thing howsoever designated, which is by this Aat declared to be unlawful, and whether such combination, transaction, agreement, subscription, or other matter or thing shall be called or known by any name, sign, ordeviee, or not. Every person knowingly committing, or suffering, a breach of this provision shall be liable to a penalty of not less than £10, or not more than £100, in respect of every such offence.

Mr. McLean objected to these clauses, and remarked that he fully expected the next Bill they would introduce would bo one to compel persons to go to church and attend Sunday-school. Mr. Moss said that if they insisted upon this extreme class of legislation, they would simply bring the whole law on the subject into contempt, and the last state of the case would bo worse than the first. The words, " For any purposo declared by this Act to be unlawful," were struck out. Mr. Hamlin moved, " That the Chairman do now leave the chair." The House divided—Ayes, 8; noes, 34. Mr. Sutton, Mr. Bowen, Mr. Gisborne, and others declared the. new clause was going too far. It would make it illegal to bet a pair of gloves or a shilling at whist, if it passed they would oppose the Bill. Mr. Dick expressed his willingness to withdraw the new clauses. Mr. Jones strongly, objected to the withdrawal. ■ The first clause was carried by 21 to 14. Mr. Dick then withdrew the second one. Mr. DeLautour moved a new clause, rendering keepers of Chinose gambling houses liable to a penalty not exceeding £50 or in default of payment threo months' imprisonment with or without hard labour. The clause was added to the Bill.

A new clause, that the Act should come into operation on the first of November, 1881, was carried. The schedule was passed, and the Bill reported as amended.' # ' . The House adjourned at 1 a.m.