GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEW ZEALAND.

New Zealand Herald, Volume IV, Issue 1189, 5 September 1867, Page 4

GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEW ZEALAND.

HOUSE OE EEPBESENTATIVES

Wednesday, august 21. NATIVE REPRESENTATION BILL. Mr. _ Mclean moved that the Speaker leave tlia chair, in order that the Natito Representation Bill might be committed.

Mr. Cableton S3id that, as ho should not bo aWo to take a part in the_debate, during the Committea he wished to avail himself of the privilege commonly accorded to tho Chairman of Committees, to speak of the motion of the honorable member, and in doino so he should go somewhat more into detail than waa usual upon the second leading. He had voted for the second reading of the Bill, notwithatanoing his conviction that if they were to go to tho Katives with that Bill ill the one hand, giving Native representa hon, and in the other hand an Act entitling them to all th"o rights, privileges, and immunities of Europeans, 'they would unhesitatingly choose the Bocond. He voted for the' Bill, notwithstanding his Btiong objection to what was commonly called Maori doetordom in any shapo or form, for he was unwilling to throw any hindrance in the way of a well-meaning proposition; but upon lookine at the amendments which had been placed in his hand for consideration, he could only state that if those amendments had been incorporated with «,= BUI as.it originally stood, ho should have eiven his vote unhesitatingly against the Bill. He was aware that the amendments were not the handiwork of the honorable member for papier, and ho would onlvear that he preferred his handiwork to that of the author of the amendments. He had already sjmken upon the second reading of the Bill, as to it 3 general principles j should now confine himself to the amendments and would suggest in detail certain considerations which ought to be prosent to the minds ot honorable members when those amendments were being debated in Committee. He would content himtelf with raising the points, and bringing the amendments under the consideration of the House, inorderthattheymi'ghtbe fairly dealt with in Committee. He might say that if the Bill were not much modified and also the amendments, he should feel it his duty to vote against the third reading. The first observation which he had to make was in regard to the first amendment, which was simply a matter of detail. He objected to the use of the words_" tenure of Maori land the Maoris did not hold their land under any tenute whatever. " Tenure" was an essentially feudal term; it signified a holding under condition. It had often been argued that the Maoris had no right to the land, because they did not hold under feudal tenure; they, had a real title, but did not hold under a tenure. In the old feudal times the condition of tenure was for the moßt part military service ; that waa the original condition, although many strange kinds of terure had crept in since. At all events theifeu/lal principle remained in our laws at tbe present day, and whatever title the Maoris might have, it . was of an allodial nature, and was no holding whatever. He likewise objected to another allegation in the preamble : " Whereas owing to the peculiar naturo of the tenure of Maori land and to other cauEea the native aboriginal inhabitants of this Colony of New Zoaland have not heretofore with fow exceptions been able to become registered as electors or to vote at the election of members of the House of Representatives." Ho was quite aware of tho opinion which had been obtained by the Government in 3858 from the law officers of the Crown, but he was quite unable to persuade himself as yet, that the Maoris were debarred from obtaining household qualifications. It -waa a question that he did not intend to argue, as he was scarcely sufficiently well informed to do so, but he was convinced that there was such an amount of doubt on the subject as to hinder them from asserting the fact in the preamble of tha Bill; and ho hoped at all events that part wouW bo struck out, and the question left as it was before, it being wholly unnecessary for the purposes of tho Bill. Amendment No. 2 was that:—

"Tho term ' Maori' in this Act shall mean an aboriginal native inhabitant of New Zealand and shall not include half-castes."

• That was one of tho difficulties thai arose from a departure from tho principles of English law. All that they had to do was to confer upon all subjects of the Queen within that portion of the realm of tha samo rights and privileges they posseesod themselves, and then it would be unnecessary to harp upon tha awkward question of half-castes. 11 their previous legislation those hslf-cosfces who vera brought up among the Natives were considered as half-castes, and those brought np amongst. tho Europeans, as Europeans, and he did not very well see how any other distinction could be adopted; hut any honorable member with tha slightest pretence to logical ability must see the looseness of tho proposed definition. Years ago,in the old Legislative Council he recollected the question being raised, whether the half-castes had British rights, or any rights at all, and the result was to use a common expression they were voted to be " neither fish nor flesh, nor good red herring/' In clause 3, it was stated that:—

" The islands of New Zealand shall for the purposes of this Act be divided into four districts which shall bo called severally the Northern, Eastern, Wes« tern, and Southern Native Electoral Districts."

There was no theoretical objection to that. Bat having considerable experience himself in the management of elections', he thought he should be supported in his opinion when ha stated that four large districts of that nature were perfectly unworkable. If the Natives were to take much interest in the matter there would ho a large number of candidates coming forward, possibly one in each tribe, and the election would not result in the return of the best men, but would be matter of chance, in consequence of the difficulty of communication, betweeeu the different tribes. If the Datives took no interest in the matter, the probability was, in euch a case, that a Pakeba-Maori, putting himself forw ird ns b candidate, would be able ,to take his scat through the votes of his own immediate neighhours. He was arguing from the original Bill, for under the amendment Bill he understood that none hut Maoris could be elected, lie would throw out as _ a suggestion that members be conferred upon certain large tribes to be named, with the intimation that when tho whole country should have become quiet and peaceful, a Reform Bill would ho introduced, and the provisions of the present Act extended. In amendment No. G, he found that manhood suffrage was introduced, and that was contrary to his prin« ciples, although ho had no right to assumo that his principles were to govern those of any single member of the House. He simply stated that he objected to a clause of that iind.

Mr. Hall : What other provision would yon suggest ? Mr. Casletow was not prepared, on the spur of the moment, to offer any suggestion. The Bill waa not his, and he should be debarred from taking any share in Committee. And, moreover, .he had not endeavoured to invent any kind of pro« vision, seeing that he was somewhat opposed to the Bill, although he had voted for the second reading. He would as 1 ! the honorable member for Napier whether, in his opinion, a tino rangatira, & great chief, would permit a taurekareka elector in his liapu to vote against him ?—whether the skull of the taurekareka might not possibly bo made acquainted with the feeling caused by a greenstone mere ?—and whether, if the Bill was carried into operation, it would not be necessary to introduce what he (Mr. Carleton) held in horror, the ballot, before' it could be work at all, in order to save the t&ureka' reka from the overwhelming influence of the great chief ? They would have then universal suffrage, and the districts extended over tha whole Colony. He would like to put an extreme case. Suppose Xereopa thought fit to stand, and supposing that he was elected, they would .have to allow him a safe conduct for forty days coming from, and forty days in returning to his tribe. He was not debarred under that clause from standing; he had not been convicted, for the simple reason that he had never been tried nor convicted. The clause said

""Who shall not have, been attainted or convicted of any treason or felony." Mr. Stajtobd.—Attainted.

Mr. Gakeeton.—Attainted must be by 4ct. He trusted tliat he would noyer see that Assembly so far exalt itself aa to impudently aissert the right to pass Bills of Attainder. ..

Mr. Maclean.—The honorable member ia putting an extreme case. I havo nauch greater faith in "tho Natives than to suppose that they would elect improper persons. , , Mr. Oakletoit said that n principle shonld be triea by an extremo case, and unless it boro tho as gold bore the test of the touchstone, the principle would not hold good. He would aßk the honorable membor for Napier whether the double vote wa*i to m allowed. That was to »&y, whether the elector noloing Crown Grants could claim under the Constitution

Act as well as under the Be presentation Act He did not put that as any objection, but it was at least a difficulty, or rather an anomaly, that ought to be provided for._ WWi regard to -universal suffrage among the 'Natives, honorable member an had ashed him for a suggestion.He was inclined to think thet the beßt provision they could adopt would bo that in what" was called Lord Grey's Constitution that no person should be allowed to vote who oould not read and write in the English language, for that would be putting a premium on education. He would also put it to the honorable member for Napier whether it would not at least be advisable to insist upon the elector's rights being signed by the voter. He believed that in Victoria the elector's rights has to be eigned by a person sailing then* out. A« far as the Natives having a slight knowledge of the English language was concerned, ho spoke feelingly. He would like to know how he, as Chairman of Committees, was to explain a point of order f He thought it should fce optioaal to the Native whether they eleeted a Native or European representative, and that there should be no restriction. The proposal wntriction was reverting to the old principle ; the old leaven was still at work, the'old spirit They professsd to give the Nativeß equal right and privileges with the ic selves, but they still insis.tsd «n withholding something—upon restricting tk*tr ftefl ehoico. It was too late now to treat the Natives as children. In the 9th clause he f««ul that: — " Tbe Governor shall cause the first writs for the election of members of the Xous* of Representatives for the electoral districts aforesaid to bo issued at some time not later than months next after the passing of this Act." He presumed that the blank would be filled up by the House, and not -b* to the Governor to do so; and he would suggest to the honorable member for Napier that til» time should be as extended as possible in ordsr that the Natives might come to some agreement amongst themselves, and in order that their thoughts might, for as long as possible, be diverted from More serious matters. The next clause was one of the most monstrous clauses he ever saw in his life :—

11 It shall be lawful for the Governor by proclamation to be published in the Government Oasetie to define and declare and frOM t'iM io time to alter and Tary the boundaries of the said several Maori electoral districts and euch boundaries so from time to time defined and declared shall be taken and deemed to be the boundaries of the said Maori electoral districts as fully as if the same had been set forth in this Act." Let them conceive, in a Beform Bill in England, such a power being left to the Queen, to alter and vary the boundaries of boroughs or counties from time to time. It was simply placing the control of the elections in the hands CroWn, neither more nor less, and the boundaries would be varied to get the right members. He was sure th-1 this clause, would not receive the support of the Ministry. In former times the Government had a great deal too much power over the elections, and he must say ■that the honorable member at the head of the Government had most strenously devoted himself to such alteration of the regalations as would relieve the Government of any suspicion as to the conduct of elections. The next clause said that

" It shall be lawful for the Governor by proclamation to be published as aforesaid to make provisions for the registration and revision of lists of all Maories qualified to vote at the election of such members of the House of Bepresentatives to be holden within Buch districts af aforosaid and also provisions for isruing and executing and returning officers and for issuing executing and' returning the neceßaary writs for election of such members and for taking the poll thereat and otherwise |for ensuring the orderly effective and impartial conduct of such election." He thought that some amendment was required is that clause. It was, he supposed, in order to save that House the trouble, that the clause simply required that the Governor should make regulations in Council. It was a great fancy of a late Attorney-General, Mr. Sewel}, that the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court should make regulations for the carrying out of Acts, or the Governor in Council, as the case might be. Whenever a man wanted a thing done properly, he should do it himself. This Bill was to last five years, but he hoped before that time there wonld be no Minister whose special duty would be attend solaly to Native affairs. He had made BUge editions which he hoped would serve as bints for tho discussion in Committee, and-he trusted the J3ill would assume a shape which he conld approve of. He wished to be able to vote for the third reading the Bill, butnotwithstanding that his motive might be misconstrued, he wo.ild be compelled to vote against it unless it was put in a more practicable and workable form. Mr. Hail expressed regret at the tone of tiie remarks which had fallen from the honorable member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Carle ton.) It was perfectly true that this Bill contained what might be considered anomalies, if it applied to Europeans ; but if the Bill was not to be passed unless it was entirely free from such anomalies, there would be an end to any legislation on the subject. He deprecated the tone of criticism, or rather of fcypercritism, which the honorable member had taken. Whatever anomalies the Bill might contain, the Hou6e owed the honorable member for Napier . (Sir. McLean) a debt of gratitude for dealing with this subject, knowing, as he ( muet have done, that he was laying himself open to the imputation of dealing with it imperfectly. There were certainly provisions in the Bill which might be objected to if it related to Europeans, such as the power given to the Governor to define electoral districts ; but it wonld be better to admit.of a few anomalies, than lose the opportunity of giving representation to the Maori race.

Major Atkinson -would, not oppose the committal of the Bill, but he thought these enormous districts would be found impracticable, for it would be found impossible to come to a conclusion as to ■who the member should be. He concurred with the remarks of Mr. Bell as to the advisability of having a double election; as, if there was an electoral college, the Natives would have something to talk about and divert their minds, and the result -would be beneficial to the cause of peace. But he feared, if the Bill passed in its present shape, a great expense would be occasioned to the country, and there would be no satisfaction obtained from it. {This was not a question of restricting a privilege, but of granting one; for the Maori could come in now and vote in the same way as Europeans. It should, however, be seen, that no privilege should be abused, for he knew that if persons, other than Natives,were to be returned, men would be sent to the House who would be a disgrace to it. Major Heaphtt, V.0., said he was afraid that that if there was an electoral school established, the Natives would hardly think think the boon worth the trouble of double election. He should be sorry if the idea went forth to the Natives that this measure was meant to divert their minds from other subjects, and he felt bound to pi otest against it, for the object was not to create diversion, but to confer a substantial boon. He fully agreed with the necessity of the Governor defining the Native districts, for the separation and dispersion of tribes would render any other mode of procedure impracticable. The electoral district must be tribal. Sow take the locality of the Ngatiawa tribe ; it lay partly at the Bay of Plenty, at Taranaki, and at Queen Charlotte's Sound j the boundaries could not at once be correctly described, and power must be left with the Government to vary the description. He fully sympathised with the honorable member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Carlfton). That 1 onorable member, acquainted as he was with parliamentary practice, and desirous to conserve constitutional

usage doubtless regarded this as a great innovation, but he forgot that this was a now subject, and that it was therefore difficult even to rough-hew a measure of the bind into shape. He was surprised, indeed, at the manner in which the honorable member for Ns.pier (Mr. McLean) had succeeded in framing it. He must deprecate the idea of the Natives returning to the House those persons who were known as Pakeha-Maoris. He knew the influence they had, an influence which was rather social than political, but might be turned to the worst political purposes. They had mostly lived so long amongst the Natives as to liave acquired a perfect knowledge of their language and feelings, but without educating themselves politically. The Maoris said of their language that it was Itebeka—sweet to listen to; and every one who knew the Maoris waß aware of the great influence which any one had who could address them fluently in their own language. If they deeired to preserve the dignity of the Legislature, they should certainly exclude this class of persons, and have the 1 aoria only returned tinder the Act. Mr. Beynolds would not have the least objection to giving the Natives representation,, but he saw great difficulties in the way. In the flrßt place he could not Eee how it would be possible to make the Native representatives understand the proceedings of the House ; and in the next place they would he unable to make themselves

understood to other honorable members. There would also be a difficulty in rendering Sills and paper* intelligible to them ; and it struck him they would' only be in the House for the purpose of giving rotes as one or two gentlemen, who could understand their language, could direct them. There was another difficulty, which the honorable member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Carleton) had alluded to—the reference to universal suffrage. That would be a dangerous system to introduce. Ha believed there was a large party in the Colony in favour of it, and if it was established in the case of Natives, they would hare a right to demand it also. Ho saw another difficulty, tliere were to be four districts. He would not refer to th« Northern, Eastern, or Western, not being sufficiently well acquainted with their boundaries j but with regard to the Southern District he supposed it would include the natives on the West Coast, in Canterbury, Nelson Otago, and Stewart's Island ; and he did not see how it -would be possible for them to agree in returning »ne man, unless they were brought together to one side. He thought there were groat objections to be urged against the 14th section, which was to make the Bill continue in force for five years. It was an experiment, and no fixed time for its duration should be named ; but if there was, i* should be from session to session. There seemed to be no agreement as regards this measure even amongst those who were best acquainted with the Natives. The honorable member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Carleton) and the honorable member for Parnell. (Majer Heaphy) both differed from the lionorablo member for New Plymouth (Major Atkinson). He would not appose the committal of the Bill, but unless the difficulties he had referred to could be obviated, he would be compelled to rote against the . third reading. ............. The House then went into Committee on the Bil?. Progress was made and reported, and leave obtained to sit again on Friday.