HOUSE OF COMMONS.

New Zealander, Volume XXI, Issue 2252, 18 October 1864, Page 5

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, July If. NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL. that on the whole, the proposal was sound, and that it would be more for tho interests of the colony and of the mother country to adopt it. The solvency of'the colony was he thought sufficient to give full sacurity. for the repayment of the loan. The increase in the expenditure was o£.& temporary kind, wheveas-the increase of the revenue of the colony was steady and per-

manent. Scarcely one of the colonics of this wantry exhibited a revenue so rapidly increasing as did Now Zealand. The Government having taken securitio&foi: repayment, and the case being exceptional, the proposition wa9 one that the House might fairly sanction without laying down a mischievous precedent in regard to guaranteeing a loan ; to tho colonies. (Hear, hear.) Sir. J. Trelawny confessed that ho had* some difficulty in comprehending tho drift of the right hon, gentleman's speech. It was a piece o£ see-saw, and he could not tell whether the right hon. gentleman thought

that this country or the colony ought to.be liable for the expenses of the war. He omittecb also to state that when Mr. Sewell, tho gentleman who.came over from New Zealand in 1858 or 1859 to represent the colony, got back to New Zealand he was voted- ;£I,OOO, as a reward for the smartness with which, he had induced the British Parliament to guarantee a loan. He was not prepared to deny that the Government had got the affairs-of New Zealand into such a,bungle that a vote was necessary, but let the House take care not tomix up the finances of the two countries.in such a way as to leadito fresh difficulty with the colony. (Hear.) If the Government had so mismanagedim&tters that this country

and not the "colony was liable, let the House meet tho difficulty like men. It was,, ho thought, beneath the dignity of Great Britain towage war with a party of savages. The colonists had been rebuked by two or three Colonial Ministers fo?-seizing lands belonging to tho natives against all right and jnstfee. The Government on their part had taken at times a course that could not be palliated or defended. What was tho practical solution of the question ? He said, punish once for all those natives against whom delinquency could be proved, but don't go to war with the whole

of the natives because- a few officers and men have been shot. If the credit and revenue of the colonywere as good as had been described, why had not the colonists been left to obtain a loan in the general market ? As they had come to the Government for a guarantee, he inferred that the credit of the colony was not quite so good as had been represented. He trusted that the Bill would not bo pressed by the Government, Mr. J. R. Smith remarked that if New Zealand had the seenriti-'S to offer which the Secretary for the Colonies said she had, it was ridiculous to suppose that she would not be able to borrow two or three millions of money in this country. The real difficulty in the oase was that the colony sought to obtain a loan at 5£ per cent, when settled colonies like Canada were only able to borrow at 6 per cent, they would readily obtain all they required. Their difficulty was not that they could not borrow the money, but it was simply a question ol a half per cent. He should support the amendment, because he regarded it as a false principle to guarantee loans of this description. (Hear, heav.) Colonel Sykes said they were now treated to a Parliamentary representation of the drama of " A-New Way to Pay Old Debts." The colony owed us

£500,000, and the way in which they wanted to pay us was by borrowing a million of money on _ our guarantee. The result would be precisely what it had been in regard to the £500,000. We should pay a million and in the end get back the £500,000. Ever since the year 1841 we had been annually granting sums to the colony of New Zealand, varying from £6,000 to £20,000. [A.nhon. member : «' What for ?"J • Ho was unable to say what for, but he held in his hand a list of the grants which had been made, and a very formidable one it was. Where was this to stop, and

what were to look forward to ? Whenever we came in contact with men with black skins we called them uncivilised barbarians, when the truth of the matter was that they had lands which we coveted and which we insisted upon having vi et artnis. He had no hesitation in saying that it would be most imprudent on the part of the Government to guarantee the loan. CHear, hear.) Mr. Monsell did not see why a guarantee should be given if, as was stated by the hon. member for Stockport, colonies where the security was known to be good could readily borrow money at the rate of 6 per cent. To show the progress which New Zealand had made of late years, he might mention that the Customs' revenue, which, in 1860-1, was £205,000, had increased in 1861-2 to £339,000, and in 1862-3 to £489,000, being- an Increase of 44 per cent. The population and shipping had also increased in a remarkable manner. How tben was it necessary for the Government to give such a guarantee as this ? It was perfectly clear that the colony could get the money by paying a little higher rate of interest and putting themselves to some inconvenienca. He thought it ought not to be made too easy for the colonists to carry on a war against the natives. The hon. member for Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley) had spoken in terms of laudation of the conduct of the colonists towards

the natives, but if the right hon. gentleman would look at the report of Sir William Martin, he would find, that, in the opinion of those persons who were wellinformed upon the subject, that there had been a constant exercise of acts of the grosseit injustice on the part of the colonists towards the natives in regard to the possession of land. They were constantly endeavouring to evade the engagements they had entered into in reference to land. Mr. Adderley said what he had stated was, that the policy of the home Government was not a policy of extermination. Mr. Monsell said he was unable to see what argument; the right hon. gentleman could found upon that. No one was inclined to believe that it was ever intended by the home government to massacre the natives (a laugh) ; but we had given to the Colonial government for the first time entire jurisdiction over the natives, and had facilitated arrangements for the future maintenance of troops in New Zealand. Instead of endeavoring to make it easy for the colonists to get money into their hands for the purpose of carrying on this war, we ought to make it as difficult as possible, and we ought to have some further proof than that given by the Colonial Secretary that at a fair rate of interest the money required by the colony could not be obtained in the public market. Accoiding to Sir George Grey the distrust which existed in the minds of the natives had been entirely produced by the conduct of the colonists towards them. ("Hear, hear.) Mr. Whalley said he had seen it stated in the New Zealand papers that Sir George Grey, when passing through the disturbed districts, had declared that wherever he had gonehe had found continually increasing proofs that the revolt of the Maoris had been instigated and had been generally sustained by the influence of the Roman Catholic priesthood. (Great laughter.) The Roman Catholic population in Canada and other colonies were exuberant in outward demonstrations of loyalty," but whenever a real opportunity presented itself they were the first to organize a system of revolt against our dominion. (Renewed laughter.) It it was difficult for him to make his feelings intelligible to the House, how much more beyond him was it to unravel the web of sophistry which had employed *and which still employed the greatest intellects of the world in wearing around our empire I He had sought to direct atteution to this matter on- three different occasions, but the right hon. gentleman had told him it was too late to enter into that discussion, treating him, of course, as a monomaniac. (Cheers and much laughter.) That Power, in consider_tion of its influence in the divisions of that House, received at the present moment not less than about a million sterling annually in support of its institutions. (Cries of " Question.") Lord Stanley, interposing, wished to know whether the hon. member for Peterborough was in order (hear, hear), whereupon Mr, Whalley did not proceed any further with his remarks, (To be concluded in our next.')