NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL. House of Commons, February 9, 1818.

New Zealander, Volume 4, Issue 215, 21 June 1848, Page 3

NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL. House of Commons, February 9, 1818.

Mr. Labouchere moved that the order of the day for going info committee u|)on this bill be read. The Earl of Lincoln was most unwilling to make nny appeal to the right lion, gentleman the President of the Board of Tmde which might appear to him to indicate a wist on his (the Earl of Lincoln's) part t<» impede the progress of public business, but he really must ask the right hon. gentleman whether he would think it right to proceed with this discussion at the present moment. The right hon. gentleman would recollect the circumstances under winch the bill had reached the present stage. The right hon. gentleman appealed to the house before it adjourned for the Christmas recess, to permit the second reading to be taken, promising that ho opportunity for discussion should be given on the question of the hou«e going into committee. The house had now met to discuss this bill on a Wednesday, a very unusuol proceeding in regard to a measure of so much importance. As an authoiity in support of his application, he might refer to the argument used but a short time ago by the right hon. gentleman the Secrctaiy for the Home Depaitment, who appealed to the hon. member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) not to proceed with the discuHsion upon which he was about to enter, upon the ground that, as the business fixed for the day was the N«w Zealand Government Bill, the First Lord of the Treasury and other members of the Government would be absent. That was almost always the case on Wednesdays ; but, ns the Under Secretary of the Colonies (Mr. Hawes) was unfortunately unable to he present, the houie had an additional claim upon the attendance of other members of the Government when a measure like that before the house was about tj be brought under discussion. He had no doubt that the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Tiadc had given all the attention ho could to the subject, but it must not be forgotten that the noble lord at the head of I lie Government had filled the office of Secretary of Slate for the Colonies, and was, therefore, capable of affording much valuable information to the house. If the Irish Poor Law was an inipropot subject for discussion in the absence of the noble lord the First Lord of the Treasury, he must say that he thought an alteration in the constitution of New Zealand must load to a discussion which would require, at least in an equal degtee, the presence of the noble lord. Theso subjects were last commented upon in 1845, and nine nights of the session were consumed in debate* upon tli-- condition of New Zi aland. He believed that the condition of that colony was as critical now as it was then, and although this was not the proper time to debate the question whether the constitution which had been given to New Zealand was a proper constitution or not, yet it must be remembered that the present bill proposed a suspension of that constitution, and this was a question which he thought ought to be giavely and seriously discussed. But did the right hon. gentleman think that * subject which had engaged the attention of the house for nine nights in 1845 could be seriously discussed in three hours ? He felt certain that the right hon. gentleman would have a better chance of accomplishing his object by taking some Government night for the bill, and allowing its dificusßJoii to come on at five o'clock. If the right hon. gentleman persevered now, he was confident that tin; house would not get into committee, but that a preliminary discussion would arise which would be terminated by the adjournment of the house, at six o'clock, and which was sure to be renewed whenever liie bill agnin camebefoie the house. Mr. Labouchere said he was in hopes, from the tone which had prevailed when the question was last before the house, that there was but little diversity of opinion upon tho subject among hon. gentlemen opposite. He certainly had understood that with regard to the necessity ot suspending the constitution of New Zealand, after the strong recommendations to that effect from Governor Grey, thers was very little difference of sen timent upou that question. Supposing, therefore, that the principle of the bill wai agreed to, he thought that the committee was a pioper stage for entering into this diicussion. From wnat had taken place, therelore, on the second reading, which did not pass altogether sub sile>itio t as \he noble lord seemed to suppose, lie wab justified in supposing that the committee was a more proper opportunity tor taking the discussion than the second reading itself. The noble lord asked him to postpone the committee. He was sure that he need not tell the noble lord, alter his official experience, of the extreme and increasing difficulty which the Government of this country found in bringing forward for the discussion and decision of the House of Commons those important questions which it was their duty to Liy before Parliament. The Government had only two nights in the week for the discussion of measure* originating with themselves, and those nights were frequently broken in upon from other quarteis, and it was 1 almost impossible, without taking advantage of every oppoi tunny which presented itself, for the Government to obtain time for the consideration of those measures which the country demanded, and which the Government would be censured for not bringing forward. He could not, therefore, agree with the noble lord in thinking that Weenesduy, although devoted in the first instance to measures intrusted to private members of Parliament, might not also be justifiably occupied in discuss-ng any Government bill which might be before the house. Upon these grounds he hoped the noble lord would excuse him for not complying with his request, and would not impute it to any disrespect for him, if hcexptessed a hope that the houhe would go into the consideration of this bill in committee, where he should be quite ready to consider any objections that might be urged against it. Mr. Gladstone said, that after the strong opinion which the right hon. gentlaman had expressed, he would not revive the question i.iised by his noble friend with lospect to the inconvenience of a dtbcussion of this

nature 'if the pn ''ill moment. \lr w<mlil pioceed, theiofnie, I o < onsxlv i thr* positive i n iclmmts ol the bill itself, and anolhei tolhl'-ialqui slum, which though nnl ducclly ctnlnaa <1 within the piovisums ot the lull, \sas at the snnii 1 time ol such vital jmpoil.inrc to New Zealand, tli.il it was impossible, to pass any stage of a constitutional measure oi this kind without taking n view of it. Witli io»;aid to the provisions of tlio bill, ho considered them ah consisting in pail of suspending, and in part of enacting piovisions. Witli tespect to the enacting piovisions oi the bill, though they weic of an unusual character, both in form and device, yot upon the whole tlicy cone-ponded wMi the demandb wliich Governor Groy had made, and theiefoic he thought tint they perhaps would do bolter by passing these piovisions in substance, than by adopting any other plan which could be sugges cd. But when he camp to tho .suspending provisions of the bill, he could not help feeling a wish to put a qucs ion to the right hon. gentleman, upon wliich he thought lie had some claim to explanation. lie did not undcrs'.-ind why the constituiion of IS4G should be suspended for a term ol Jive years rather than be repealed altogether, lie quite understood why, under ordinary circumsiances, when the Lcgisliituic was about to suspend the ncthn of n law which was in existence and opciution, they should fix n period when its suspension should ccaee, and its operation be renewed ; because, when the specidl cnu&e for its suspension is determined, there wns no reason why the law should not again revive in full foice and vigour. But the house was not about to discuss the provisions of a constitution wliich was now in existence, or which had ever existed. The New Zealand Constitution of 184G was a mi-re paper constitution. It had never found its way into actual life, und was known to the people of New Zealand only as a matter of theoretical and speculative discussion. How far public opinion in New Zealand had been expressed in its favour, sufficient for tlie house to presume that this was the most advisable form of constitution for that country, he d.d not know. He did not know whether they had at present any evidence that this constitution, and no other, was the constitution which they were called upon, not to revive, but to establish, in the year 1848. It appeared to him, therefore, that suspension was an inconvenient mode of fettering the future judgment of the house. He thought that the simplest, the wisest, and the most practical course, would be to say that the time Lad not arrived when it was proper to grant this constitution, and therefore that it ought to be repealed ; and that while the house contemplated giving at a future time a constitution to New Zealand, which should giva a new scope to popular principles, they were prep-ircd to undertake such a talk when, from the experience *ff>rded them by time, they were enabled to assent to s constitution which should have real life and operation. He hoped that in the course of this discussion they would have these matters, wliich were matters of public cons venience, fully examined. But he could not pass by thisjstage of the present Bill wi'hout adveiu'ug to a question of ihe utmost practical importance to the social welfare of New Zealand, nnd, it might be, of its peace and tranquillity. He refeired to the claim on the part of the Natives to land in that country — acjucstion which so entirely lay at the root of every dibcussion ! connected with New Zealand, that the House would in ! vtiin adopt the wuest and most skilful mcasuica with regard to constitutional principles, unless they took care Unit they followed a wise and safe course in regard to that fundamental matter. It would be against the first principles of luunauiiy, and not only detrimental to the peace of the colony but the happiness of its population, if they allowed any object to interfeie with the proper settlement of that question. He wished, therefore, to state frankly to the Government, in the person of the rijjht houoia ile gentleman, the difficulties which occuired to his (Mr. Gladstone*) mind in regard to it. Ho did n»t wish to commit himself finally to any positive opinion, because no man was more anxi" ou* to ieel satisfied that the views of the noble lord at the head of the Colonial department in regard to tlrs question, were views calculated to promote the peace and welfare of the islands of New Zealand. He thought there could be no doubt as to what had been the understood construction of the treaty — whether fortunate or unfortunate in the first instance he would not enquire—of Waitangi, which was conceived to regulate the disposal of public lands in New Zealand, so far as regarded the claims of the Natives to land. It was well known that the Natives had occupied a certain portion of the fertile lands of those islands, which they had improved by their labor. It was well known that the Natives might be said to occupy another, and a much larger, portion of the lands of the island, which, however, they had not improved by labor, but which they used for purpo ; es connected with the feeding of cattle, the pasturing of wild pigs, &c. These were not lands improved by cultivation, but were used by the Natives in a manner somewhat beneficial to themielvcs, though certa'nly in a way very adverse to the piinciplcs of political economy. Now, when the treaty of Waitangi was concluded, ie was universally understood that the titles of the Natives were to ho recognized, tnder that treaty, not only to the lands they had occupied and improved gby labor, but likewise to tho&c lands from wliich they derived a beneficial use in the manner he had described, even though that particular use wav very slight indeed computed with what they dciivcd from the land which was under cultivation. Governor Grey gave a very himple and just description of the footing on which thiß matter ought to stand, in a despatch received fiom him in the mouth ol December last. He said— "The position I understand to ba adopted by the New Zealand Company's agent, that, if tracts of land are not in actual occupation, and cultivation by Natives, we have therefore a right to take possession of them, appears tome to require one important limitation. The Natives do not suppoit themselves solely by cultivation, but from fern root, from fulling, from eel ponds, from taking ducks, from hunting wild pigs (for which they require extensive runs), and by such like pui suits. To deprive them of their wild lauds, and to limit them to lands for the purpose ot cultivation, is, in fact, to cut off from them some of their most important means of subsistence." This view of Governor Grey had been, he might say, universally understood by all who had considered the treaty. He would now frankly state the point to which his anxiety was chiefly directed. He wished to be assured that the despatch of Lord Grey, dated the 23rd of December, 1840, and the instructions appended to that despatch, so far as regarded the public lands, were in conformity with that treaty. He thought good faith towards the Natives required that they should be. (Hear, hear !) The House should bear in mind that the natives ot New Zealand did not judge of this matter by the terms of the treaty, but by the interpretation put upon those terms by all the persons m New Zealand occupying places of authority — and it followed, therefore, if good faith was to be maintained with them, that that construction should be adhered to. He wished to see this course followed, also, because he was convinced that the peace of the island was involved in the question. He referred to the despatch of Lord Grey, in oider that it might be fully understood on what his doubts and apprehensions wore founded. In a despatch whkh >vus printed among the papers presented in Au-

i^ist, Ifs Id, Lord (jrcy spolc nf the pirtcnsinns put t'oitli l>v <vit,nn tribci to 1 irt»p tracts of wr'c Imul, which liny ' had bt.cn (uughl 1 ' to ie/;.ird as then own. He b,inl — " It nppenvs tli.it you have found if twprdunt to admit those pielciiMous to a consideniblo extent ; and, having done ho, no appai cut advantage could be suffered to weigh against the evil of acting in a manner either reolly or even appaicntly inconsistent with good faith. While, however, you scrupulously fulfil whatever cnsa»ement you luve contracted, and maintain those ii»lus on the part of the native tiil)es to land which you have already recognised, you will avoid ao much as possible any further surrender of the property of the Crown. 1 ' Then, in tLe instructions appended to that despatch he said, — " No c] nin shall be admitted in the said land courts on behalf of the aboriginal inhabitjiits of New ZcaUud lo any lands situate within the said islands, unless it shall be established to the satisfaction of such court', that either by some net of the executive government of New Zealand, as hitherto constituted, or by the adjudication of some com tof competent jurisdiction within New Zca'and, the right of such aboriginal inhabitants to such lands Imb been acknowledged unil ascertained, or that the claimants or their progenitors, or those from whom they derived title, have actually had occupation of the lands so claimed, and have been accustomed to use and enjoy the same, either ns places of abode or for tillage, or for the growth of crops, or fin the de pasturing of cattle, or otherwise for the convenience and suAtentalion of life, by means of labour expended theieupon." Now, his doubts and difficulties rested chief!/ upon the point that the instructions of Lord Giey appeared to confine tho titles of the native tribes to cases in which it could be said of land that it had been improved " by labour expended thereupon," and did not extend to lands which natives applied in other w.iys to their own purposes and to their benefit. Now, he had shown that by the construclion hitherto put upon the treaty, they were not justified in imposing such a limitation ; but, if he understood arieht the view tuken by Loid Grey, in the instructions he had just read, the courts of New Zealand would be forbidden giving titles to any land except such as had been improved by labour. This was a very important matter ; for, as respected the greater part of the northern colony, there was but little land likely to be available for useful purposes except what was claimed, used, and enjoyed by the natives in that slender but still real sense which he had endeavoured to describe. He would now state, as clearly as possible, what he understood Loid Grey's meaning to be; for he was anxious, if wrong, that his interpretation of the documents he had read should be contradicted. He could assure the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) that he would be but too happy to find that the meaning was not such as he attributed to it. Lord Grey stated that they should maintain inviolable the titles ot all lands that had been recognised by the colonial au. thoritics. Now, he considered, that under the provisions of the treaty it was impossible that the precise titles to the land could be fixed. A general principle was laid down, and it was committed to ccitain tribunals to determine the application of that principle to each particular case, The application of the principle had accordingly been determined in particular edies ; in a manner, however, that Earl Grey thought improvident. His instructions in effect were, that they should respect religiously any piocccding of the kind that had taken place, but that they should not : consider the treaty in the sauu* sense in future ; that ' in future the natives should obtain titles to land only in cases where it had been improved by labour. He was sorry to say that Una construction, which he had put upon Lord Grey's language, was confirmed by a document the existence of which he regretted on many accounts— he meant the letter of Lord Grey, dated the 3Dth November, 1847, with respect to the Bishop of New Zealand. He did not at present -efer to that letter in so far as it was applicable to the conduct of the bishop, but with regard to the question ot titles. He said—" All that I advised was this— that the theory of the ownership by tribes of unoccupied landi should not be made the foundation of any future transactions ; and that what I conceived to be the rights of the Crown, that is of the public (where no engagements to the contrary have been made) should be carefully attended to in the disposal of land wherever no property has yet been recognißed." By the term " future transactions," he must understand Lord Grey, till he was otherwise distinctly and positively assured, to mean that they should adhere to the spirit and principle of his instructions, which, though perhaps open lo the charge of some grammatical ambiguity m the language, went upon the pi inc. pic that improvement by labour was the criterion for granting a legal title to the natives for land. (Hear, hear.) In offering some remarks upon this question as respected the bishop, he must take the liberty to make an appeal of a very distinct and emphatic description to the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mn. Labouchere.) They well recollected that they hud some discussion on this subject on a former occasion ; and, if he adveitcd to it now, it was not becJUbe ho was apprehensive of anything with |re.spcct to the chaiacterot the bishop, or that tl.at right rev. prelate would feel any resentment on account of any reproof unjustly administered to him. He believed he might confidently state that his services would be freely given to the Government, whether he considered himself to have been well or ill used by them, but he (Mr. Gladstone) nevertheless deemed it his duty to refer to one point on which the right rev. piclntc had been indisputably, though no doubt unintentionally, subjected to unjust treatment. That right rev. prelate bad presented a protest to the Government, in *which he expressed his opposition to the construction put by Lord Grey on the Treaty of Waitangi, and stated that he would asbifitthe natives in asserting and maintaining their legal rights, sanctioned by treaty. Now, a gieat part of the censure which Loid Grey bestowed on that protest was founded on the supposition that the bishop published it, and made it known to the natives, aud that he did bo in the face of the Government. On a former occasion it appeared to him (Mr. Gladstone) that the bishop had done no such 'nr»j* ; that the bishop, believing in the perfect con c onaney of view existing between him and the Governor.of New Zealand, determined to strengthen the Governor's ha i.ls, by putting him in possesion of a document containing an expression of his sentiments ; which document might be sent to be judged of by the Government at home. Though he had no doubt the bishop wuuld do all in liis power to assist the natives in the assertion of their just rights, yet he believed him wholly incapable ot luck imprudence as to publish his protest, especially at a moment of such excitement among the whole native population. (Hear.) Tue right lion, gentle man opposite (Mr. Laboucheie) was not, oa tho occasion when the subject was debated, able to say that the Government had any knowledge whatever that the bishop had published the document to the people. He did not htfiieve that he had done so, and certainly he regarded tlie offence, as> it had been deemed, of sending it io Government, a very difloi enfi offence from what siah a line ol conduct would have been. He wuitcd jo know from the right hon. gentleman opposite, whe-

Hut lljr bishop published tlic protest to the natives or not ? It was not in the way nt challenge that he asi.cil Hiis, but ioi tin: '..ike ot tiutli arid reason. If the bishop did not tlo so, then seeing Hint the censure of limil Grey proceeded oa the pfiouiid that he had done it, it war. an unjust censure (henr) ; and be hoped to live to sec the nine — perhaps it might be a few weeks, or oven hours— when some reparation would be made to the bishop for n charge which, if true, would have been sciious indeed ; but which, if not tine, demanded the most ample explanation. (Hear, heai.) He then endeavoured to show, that the despatch of Earl Grey was incompatible with the construction that had been put upon the Treaty of Waitangi ; and he might observe that he would be the last man to invite a gmtuitoua discussion on thin question ; but that the, subject was one which gave him no small alarm. He trusted that an appeal to justice would be stronger than an appeal to fear in that house ; but still with rrgnjd to NewjZcalaud, and the lives of our fellow co uirvmcii settled there, ho must say therejjwerc grounds foifcir, and upon that ground, us well as by an nppc.il to rea son, ought this matter to bo discus-ted. Up to the present moment they practically had held New Zealand not by the terror of their namo or the number of their forces, but by the zealous aad loyul assistance of the great majority of the native population. (Hear, hear.) Let the house fix that proposition well in its mind. They were apt to think when they heard of a rebellion in New Zealand that it was a dilute between our soldiers and the natives, whereas the fact w.is that on those occasions our soldiers and the colonists wno Uniformly supported by the gicat body of the natives. How careful ought they to bo of taking .uy ««« which might tend to wean from them the affections ot the great body of the people of New Zealand ! In the papers distributed yesteiday Governor Grey wrote that there had been a great excitement among the native population regarding the waste lands claimed by various chiefs., and he enclosed a letter from Captain Sothcby, in which it was intimated, that the intentions of Government in reference to the waste hmdi " had created much anxiety in the minds of the nativas in the norhern portion of the island." He also stated, that nliiriuingaccoonts had been received from various paits regarning the excitement caused by the proposed introduction of the new constitution, and the steps that were to be taken regarding the registration of the lands. He concluded by stating that be " feared thut the prosperity which was now dawning upon the coun» tiy will shortly give place to scene* more gloomy than any which have yet b. j en witnessed." Then they had a letter from Cupluin Sotheby, informing them of the alarming state uf matters in that important part of the island adjoining the Bay ol Islands. He said— " Previous to my arriving, Kuwitt had come down with about 30 followers to Waku, to know if such was the case, aa he consideied to be in open violation of the treaty of Waitangi, and indiieet opposition to whut had beeu the view ot his Excellency the Governor— but Waka eased his mind by telling him there was no truth in such a report, and which I moot fully coiroborated." He also informed them that another Chief named. Tupe, came down, and that to him he gave the assut-. ance, upon the authority of his Excellency the Govcr~ nor — " that it was not the intention of Government to claim all the land" — and " that no land would be taker, excepting with the will and consent of the Chiefs, and the granting them a provision, but which kind ot icniuneralion the Natives don't et'em to understand.*' Captain Solheby told them of another Chief expressing the .saniennvicty, which he allayed in the same manner. Thuß, it was obvious that the nnviciy amciia; llus>o Chief-, and which would have led to a civil war in the island, was alhiyi d by the distinct assurance on the pai r of those who were understood to repicscnt the Crown, that the treaty of Waitangi would be maintained. (Heir!) He hoped he had said enough to show tliG grounds of the anxiety which disturbed his mind. He had shown that there was an established construction of the treaty of Waitangi, according to which the N,jtivct were to rema n, : n possession of the.r Limit, without any limitation as to their being improved by labor ; and he hud shown enough to excite a fear that, according to the letters and instructions of Lord Grey, tbat construction was to be departed from and that the Crown of England was in danger of bring exposed to the charge of disregarding its treaties, and at the same time dt&" turbine; the peace of the colony. He had shown that this charge had caused alatm in the colony, and filled the mmd of their manly Governor with apprehension. He had shown how the apprehension in the colony was allayed — viz., by the dibtinct assurance given to the Native! tint the treaty of Waitangi would be religU ously maintained— and he hoped, therefore, he had shown enough to make it clear that it was no gialuitous discussion arbitrarily intioduced on his pat t. (Hear, hear !) There was no person to whom the right hon. gentleman opposite would communicite more lively pleasure than to himself if he could give him the assuiance that the doctrine of Governor Giey, as to the constitution of the Ueaty wns the doctrine on which it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to net. (Hear, hear \) He could not but advert to an cxpiesBion used by Lord Grey in a despatch of the 23ul December, where bealludul Lo the treaty as—" what had been called the treaty of Waitangi.'' Whether that treaty was a wise airangemcnt he would not stop to say » but whether it was a wise arrangement or nut, it was still a tieaty. (hear, heai !) and he would say that there was not a more i>uicily binding Itcaty in existence, lie hoped that, in whatever reply the right lion.gentleman might fuvor him with, he would be as cleai and explicit as possible on the points to which he hat? called his attention, He had kliown that theic wa c , justice in the claim made by the natives of Ni-w Zealand, and he was sure the right honorable gcntlem n would have every desire to see the fullest justice done to the noble people towards whom we had contracted such large obligations, and of whose allegiance tins Queen of Eiiglund had evcrv icason to be proud(Hear!) Mr. M. Milnes asked if his right honorable fiiend meant to refer to the Northern island ? 01 whether he meant that the treaty of Waitangi respected the one? island as well as the other '! Mr. Gladstone said the whole gist and force of lrii' remarks applied to the Northern island, excluding ths Southern slice. Mr. Libouchere could assure the right honorable gentleman tbat he could not attach moie importance than he did to the conduct ot the Government toward"; the natives of New Zealand, being characterized by the most perfect good faith, and the most literal fulfilment) of every engagement which (hoy had entered into with them, and that he could not have a stronger sense than; he hud of the duty, even irrespective of those engagements, winch devolved upon the Government of doing: everything in theii powei to protect the interests and promote the welfare of that people. It anything could add to his wi.-h to see every possible encouragement given to the aboriginal inhabitants, it would be the accounts thai had been recently received of the conduct; of that people, the papers containing which had beeu laid on the table of the House. Every member who had read thoso papers must have observed in what terms Govcrnoi Grey and the other persons connected with the colony, hnd spoken of the disposition of the Naljve inhabitants who had adopted the habits, and [For ionlinw'ion jw ZwppfWHt],