THE SECESSION OF THE AUCKLAND MEMBERS.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LII, Issue 5827, 29 October 1879, Page 6

THE SECESSION OF THE AUCKLAND MEMBERS.

■ It will be remembered that on Friday a long debate took place in the House of Bepresentatives on the sudden withdrawal of pertain Auckland members from the Opposition, which was not reported by telegraph ip the usual manner in consequence of the fault in. the cable.-■ As the subject is one of the utmost importance, and interest, and should receive the fullest publicity, we may be pardoned for placing before our-readers the following report of what took place, extracted from the Jf«w Zealander s—-

On the propoeal that. the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr Maee laid he would just like to make a few remark* on the Khahoial Statement recently made by the Colonial Treasurer. He quoted figure* to •how that there was a disparity of, £364,000, and he blamed, the Colonial Treasurer, for letting so misleading and mischievous a. statement go forth to the world, it being likely to cause incalculable harm to the credit of the Colony. Mr TiKonrr Ftkb said he thought it necessary to set right another matter which had been set wrong by the other side. They had said the Opposition had refused supplies. The Opposition never did eo, but were always willing to grant them at any moment,* had not the Ministry themselves obstructed business. He did not-feel inclined to submit to the odium of having refused supplies in the face of the faot that the Ministers had audaciously asked the House to forego all constitutional rights, and had declared that unless such right were given up by every member of the Hone# they would retard busineee. Tbeee rights bed ■ been won by their forefathers at much cost, even of blood, and he hoped that the members of that House would show they had vigour enough, to protert.raeb rights for their children. ; He would •ek one the lobbies reeUd With rumours, Itweaseid a certain section of the House bad sold theer yoteq: to tJbe Oovernmsnt for a sutn ef mdoey, I down, beoanietoensne not anough in the Treaeury, but lor a oertaiu •um. to to spent OU public works within the tortrirt they ;• ropneentod-. Such ' rumour*. Were derbgatoiy to the chuaeter of . the -i

Souse, as revealing oorrupt preetioM never equalled in any legislature since the days of Walpole, Therefore, he asked the question, wsr* such rumours true or not ? ..... No reply came from the Ministerial benches. ■ • : Mr TcwwMi eold that it woe rumoured that an offer, or demand, in writing, had been made the Government on behalf of one portion of the Colony,*** price for the votes of ita representatives. If fliif ware the ease, he did not think it right that the House should go into the question of enpaUee until the matter we* cleared up. «. « the House had been told by the Colonial Treasurer, there was a very great deficiency, he would ask how could t lho, promise to these members,be carried out f He, for one would not stend colmly by and see any part of the Colony favoured at the . expense of another ; and he felt sure that if an unfair promise hod been extracted oe the price of certain votes, the bargein FOuld be a bad one for both parties; concerned In it, Mr Batuvci here eeked a question of the Colonial Treasurer, > whether, in his statement of the liabilities of the Colony,; he. had given any credit for the assets :of the previous year. Thu. he thought, the Colonial Treasurer had not done. ~ The CoioifiAi Tseabvbh made no reply. Sir Gioboh Gbbt said the question before the House was that the Speaker, leave the chair to go into Committee,of-Supply. He would move as an amendment that ;any correspondence between the Government and, the Aaokland members,, referring to terms on which they . would vote in favour of the Ministry, or the terms of any agreement made to that effect, should be. laid Mfore the House, before the House proceed to grant supplies. Speaking to the amendment, he said he was informed on authority he could not doubt that four Auckland members had agreed to vote with (he Government upon certain terms not yet divulged. Now there members hod stood pledged not to form any coalition with the present Ministry, antu after the no-oonfidenoe question had been put to a division, and if (bey had done so, as was reported* the character of the House was at stoke, and (he ooantiy at large woe concerned in a very grave question. The Fbbxibb. questioned whether the amendment was in order. The Spbakeb ruled tbat.it was.

The 'Fbbmibb said that to make the amendment absolately perfect, it should embrace reports of all private conversations, as a necessary sequel. The only answer he would now give was that any correspondence between the Ministry and the Auckland members would show nothing derogatory to the dignity of either or opposed to constitutional practices. He objected to members bringing in ramomrs from the lobbies or the gutter Os subjects for discussion in that House.

Mr Pm thought the House had no right to take cognisance of rumours put id circulation by disappointed members, and probably having no foundation in fact. Mr Db Latjtoub said the proof would be given on the first division. For his part, he did not think there was any truth in it. He did not believe the colleagues he had worked with in good faith had betrayed the confidence reposed in them for a pot of Inore. The House should not assume or hold unjust suspicions that the Auckland members had adopted a position they should not take. Ho thought, however, that as the Premier .had admitted there was some correspondence on the subject, it should be laid before the House, especially as the Ministry held office unconstitutionally and unjustifiably, and had already been convicted of making promises to one member which they knew they could not possibly fulfil He had intended to ask them what they proposed doing in the matter of Chinese immigration, but “ for ways that were dork and trick’s that were vain, he thought the Hall Ministry quite equal to Chinamen, and thus' imagined that they would not object to unrestricted immigration of those people. In continuation, he said he would not believe that the' AuckLihd members had turned itnitors. It would be: a sad day for the Colony if they had done so. Mr Seddon quoted a telegram from the Auckland /Star, which stated that four Auckland members bad arranged to join the Ministry, and it was believed, they were to receive naif a million for their district.

Mr J. B. Fishes said it appeared to be a question whether the country was to be ruled by roads and bridges, principles, or men. The information now asked for wos : desirable, as likely to show the operating causes inducing the sudden change of circumstances in the House. Mr Hislof said that as Mr Hall had stated there were certain negotiations proposed, it would appear that these would form items in the government policy when brought, down. , Mr Halp denied that he had ever said so.

-Mr Hibxop accepted the denial, and put the matter hypothetically. Assuming that it was correct that certain negotiations had been proposed, the House ought to know what they.were. He refused to believe that the Auckland members had deserted their colours. If they had done so, they should go over to the other side at once, and their previous coll*ogues would be only too glad to get quit .of them.

Mr M'Lran objected to rumour* being made a subject; of , discussion, but drifting into observations on rumours about 20 port* folios haying, been given away, he was called to *oerc|«9w ->^’'-.then., : 'iiii>intMne4- that the amendment should be rejected. The Government, he said, had honour among them, and would not disgrace themselves or the Colony. It was ; not to be supposed that became the former Government .did; such things, the present one would be similarly guilty. .. Mr Sfsioht spoke in favour of the production of the. correspondence, if only to show young members how to conduct delicate negotiations. Mr Mvbbat objected to the House resolving . itself. into an inquisitorial chamber, and concluded a disconnected tirade by exclaiming, “ Oh, liberty, what crime* are committed in thy name.'! Mr Andbbwb held that as the Ministry now so suddenly asked for a vote on the noconfidence question, before' their Ministerial statement was ready, they were utterly ignoring. their previous > protestations. Ho said, also, he feared that they had not to go far out of their way to catch fluttering birds, but that certain feeble ones had lingered around only too ready to be caught by the first bait thrown out to them. ,

Mr MAOivsßiw Mid it was hardly worth while to refute the reckless assertions of the member for Waikouaiti.bnt he wooldmerely assure the Hons* that no l promise had been made to induce an; one* to join the Opposition. i

Mr Ibilavd said he hoped the Premier would at onoe give a denial, and free hie Ministry from any imputation of unfair tactics.

■Mr SmrHABD said the gentlemen whose names, were so freely mentioned ought either to deny or admit the insinuations against them.

Mr Toi>i,*s an Auckland member, denied that ha had in tha slightest degree! foiled in the solemn trustplaeed in his hands by his constituents. ■ ■

Mr JjvKDOK also denied that the rumour had any relation, to his notions. JHe hoped thei member for the Thames would oall for a division, and then if it were shown that any of the Auckland membm van traitors ha -would join tha Otago man lor ths rsst of the session. V-,--- | Mr Moss again asked the Colonial Treasurer whether in hie linaacial Statement the sum of £354,179 included in the expenditure for 1878-9 at pate 9 of the Statement wee not also included'at j»ge 19 in the oetimated expenditure for 18?9-a0. ■ ~ : ■ Major ATKnreon said he weald dkpoee of the question without any; diAeulty at the proper time. . . '* c ..-; A. division wee then- token after the question had been put to tbewotcM, lead much : amueament waa oanaad by 4k t Mfntstars aid, many oithmr ienotsera •wrdlnjintothe ■wppoeitWt> Joooy. « --rio r, i whether ‘“mini 1 The Brians ruled that, they could hod and objection* were, mbad 7 against Mtoa«) the members Of, the' Ministry.— Major Atkto-1

•?“ h f *i«n hii voice with the but ha* voted with the Hoes, and the flpeeker ruled that hie vote moct go down to “Mr Wakefield, member for Geraldine, said he did not recollect on which ‘ w .M.pwi> hi* voice, though he voted with the Hoec, and bis statement wee eooepted.—Mr Hall aeid also that the irat ■r®* .•**“ lf T * n hie voice with the Aye*, but whet he iked done the aecond time he did not recollect,—Mr Oliver end Mr BoUecton made similar replies. ,On division the Noe* had a large majority, Mr Biadix Wood then made an explanation. He aaid he waa one of the Auckland member* who had gone over to the Ministerial aide, and waa not aabamed of it. He waa mixed up in no correspondence with the Government, and had made no terms. Hia precise motives were easily explained, The members, of the Opposition were donbtlesa annoyed at his leaving them, but as he had found, them true to their engagements, so also they would find he had been true to his engagements with them. He had stated distinctly to hia constituents that he would accept and support the Liberal principles laid downinthe Governor's speech of the preceding session, and that he would support Sir Qeorge Grey, as leader of the Liberal party. He had done so up to the very furthest point, when against his advice Sir George had left the leadersMp of the Opposition. He had counselled at the caucus meetings to force Sir George Grey back, even upon an unwilling House. This had been overruled, none would support him. Another resolution was carried, that there should be no coalition. To that he bad agreed. The charge now waa, that he had broken his pledge, but he held that a proiniseVmode under certain ciroumstaneea three weeks sigp, was not binding on him now, seeing that very widely different circumstances had arisen. At the caucus they were told that if . Sir George Grey retina there would be at once a large accession of strength from all sides of the House, which would replace the Opposition on the Ministerial Benches. He would ask had that been the case? ' "Wete not the Hall Ministry still occupying the Benches, and likely to do so. And again had not the House spent much, time in doing nothing, and were they not how, by the position of parties, absolutely precluded from doing anything? He at least bad the courage of his opinions, and intended to do what ,he considered right to break the deadlock existing. He knew that on the side he had left he would be execrated at a traitor, but on the other side he would be hailed as a factor in perfecting a good work. Exaggerated blame and exaggerated praise were, however, alike to hiln; to both ne was indifferent. There did not eziet two Sorties in that House. There was no ifference existing in principle. All knew the real financial condition of the Colony, and yet they had permitted personal feeling to create a deadlock, preventing removal of such difficulty. He was not one of those who would always vote for his party’s cause and never think for himself. That was not his plan. He objected to being dictated to by the member for the Thames. If such influence must exist, the better plan would be to pass a short Bill, giving the member for the Thames fourteen or fifteen votes, and let the rest of the Auckland members go home. For his part, he held himself responsible to the House, the country, and his own conscience, and did not deem it right that the whole business of the country should be stopped while the members of that House trifled away time in mere personal disputes. Some correspondence had been mentioned as having passed between the Auckland members and the Ministry. What of that, if it even were so. He would appeal to Sir George Grey if he had hot offered to make an arrangement with him about joining the talked of Macandrew Ministry. His tongue would have been closed but for the charges made that day, but now there was no cause for further silence. Sir George Grey, who sent for him, had offered to make a bargain with Mr Macandrew, that he (Mr Wood) should be Colonial Treasurer. He had replied, “Do as you please, if you think me worthy; but make no bargain on my account.” An intimate friend bad then come three days ago, and told him that he was going to be Premier of the Colony. He thought that was chaff, but he found that there was truth in it, for Mr Macandrew himself confessed that he thought he had made a mistake in taking the leadership of the Opposition, and suggested that he (Hr Wood) should be the man. Well, he he had turned this over in his mind. He was hot an unambitious man. He threw things he did not like from him as dirt, but not all things. He thought, however, that if he waa to be pitchforked in that position into a Ministry formed by Sir George Grey he should be in a false position. So he went to Mr Macandrew and said “ You are very kind, you have got yourself into a false position, and you now want to place me there, but it won’t do.” Thinking further on the matter it occurred to him that the Premiership had been offered to other people, and he really did not know who he was or was not following in continuing his allegiance to the party. He did not see how any Government commanding the confidence of the House could come from their side, and he therefore sought out a man among the Auckland party in whom he could confide, one who thought for himself, and fixed on Mr Swanson. On comparing notes be found they held precisely the same views, each anxious to shake off the thraldom under which they laboured. They put their heeds together and communicated with Messrs Hirst and Colbeck, and the four made up their minds that upon certain conditions they would join the Hall party. Mr Swanson interviewed the Ministry, and they agreed to the terms, about whioh so muon, discussion had ensued that afternoon, and over whioh so much anxiety was expressed. These terms were—l. That the present educational system should not be interfered with. 2. That the Liberal measures should be carried. 3. That an account should be made up showing the amount of public monies expended in the different portions of the Colony, and an account also of the money expended in Auckland, and if it were found on comparing the figures that Auckland had not received her just share then that the deficiency should be made good. There the murder was out. How, what ensusdp As soon as the Opposition side heard of this they said “Couldyou not have made as good terms with us,” and yet they were raising olamonr now agimst their concluding the bargain with the Hall Ministry. He would ask where were the purists P It was true there wash portfolio vacant in the Ministerial benches, but he disavowed any intention or inclination to accept it even if offered, nor did he know who would get it, though he had said jokingly to hit friend Mr Hunt, “ There is a portfolio, go for it.” 1 He concluded by •gain aoserting that his entire action in the matter had been prompted by purely patriotic motives.

Sir Qioboi Obit replied, not, m he Mid, in anger, but in aorrow. He ahowed that the EVioua apaatarhad not logically oonaidered argumentanor hit poaition towarda the party he bad deaerted. He might hold him* aelf juatiled, but in point of honour he had no right to break hie agreement with the party. He denied Mr Wood’* aaaertion that any apeoial offar had been made him or inducement held out The only oouraraatioQ had been that of frienda, one with the other, and any auggeation made that Mr Header Wood anoulcTbe Colonial Treaaurer, waa;on the impreaaion that he waa well fitted for auoh ofloe and for the good of the Colony mmerady. Thero waa no analog between tbit and r hie entering into treaty with the other ride. He blamed Boeder Wood for hia treachery in drat oonaorringwith t|ae Oppoaition party, joining their oonferenoea,aaauming to be their apeeiiu odTiaer, and then deferring them. He gar# apeoial denial to the statement aa made by him that, after he had men* tioned the tarma offered by the Hall Miniatry, tho Opposition had aaid, “Why did you not aak ua for terinaf" Thia waa a mioatatement. this; “ Why you could haregetjuet aa f|m>aiaUe a reply from cw - trim i * about negotiating with [the other eKSWBttsdflHM «wt yet been elicited. Ha laid further .that ha(Sir.OeoMoOiby) ooulduot ,#P hk mind of the belief that the cotton of theae

,0 “' haddone~ Bre „, I political life of the Colony anH « ifm to ft. I w« most unfortunate > I debate. The House resumed at 7.30, * 1 !** *» th ? Xb T' «*tt- I after^aKhe"GomSt vote of want of confidence, or a !,* llo » I motion, to come on. 7 talent Jyclei,. could well come back to the la hl c ! been under discussion at haff-nost a, N If it could bo shown how *5 he would have no objection. ° e Major Atkinsok said ’ the n. ‘ riTxr h » —‘-■SSS *h» he had no * to Jopfu H The amendment of Sir George a relative to the production of corril, between the Government and thfju n 'S« members, &c,, was then put and cLrini out opposition. _ SUPPLY. The House then resolved itself ft*. r mitteo of Supply. 1010 An Imprest Supply of £300,000 , for and granted, on the motion T l '* sij I ~ The -? ou ” the ? resum ed, and the tlon of the Committee was agreed to ■’ Imprest Supply Bill passed stages, - 3 q Atkinsos moved that the Her., into Committee of Supply. V> Six Gkobob Gsey moved that ft.u do adjourn till the papers referred*** previous motion be brought up. He ref ' 1 again to the Opposition having accept no coalition, to which three r.fV' gentlemen who had since seceded v • pledged themselves. It was believed *1 I in,honour no one could have gone hww ' I that agreement. One of them (the member for Wutemata) had made».i. Keasurorship. He recapitulated what W had said on this subject prior to the adioument, as to what Lad passed between \r. Wood and himself. He denounced the C J duct of Mr Wood in procuring a portfolio h another. He criticised that gentleman’s coduct in very gentlemanly, but at the time catting terms, expressing himself ft.; grieved and aatonished at what had tab" I place. It had actually shaken his I m his fellow men. He referred to the te--, I granted to the hon member for Wait emata, aft I also to the fact that telegrams had been = e -t I to Auckland, stating that the result wouH I £500,000 to that Provincial district. He ftt I distressed beyond measure at the conns tie I hon member had taken, and detailed I had passed between Mm and the <p^ er ' I He twitted the Government with abandoning I their position in the afternoon. He felt tj. I tain that the coalition would not ftr, | that in a week or two the majority the G> || vemment had thus secured would mel: ,u ir I to nothing. He called on his party not to I despond, and to aid Mm in t: S :

abuses wMch they were determined to tn: .. under foot.

Mr Bbxd spoke strongly of the c:- :: of Mr Wood, and said that he had n--;; seen such an exhibition as that of the

member for Waitemata. He had ha || accustomed to regard old politicians | examples to follow, bat as to Morin;m | bon member for Waitemata, Heaven forbid: | He remembered that the hon member, in | their caucuses, was seemingly most earne-t, | bat apparently seemed to wish to oust ta I hon member for the Thames. It was the | hoa member for Waitemata who was the si very man to insist on coalition, sod who pro | Sued Mr Macandrev as leader of the party. | e (B£r Wood) further enjoined those presen: I to stick to Mr Macandraw during the re- I mainder of the session. | Mr Wood asked if he had stuck to them, j

Ur Bkid said he had as far as he ice*, i and ho proceeded to give farther evidence m I support of Mr Wood’s pretended advocacy j of that cause. The hon member ms the very man who proposed that they shonld. stop supplies, and it was on his advice that they did so. The only excuse the hon member had was that a balance sheet should be j struck between Auckland and the Colony, He had no objection to that, bat let the accounts of all other districts, Otago and the West Coast be squared too. He thought he would hare to follow the leading men. The hon member for Waitemata said he was not ashamed of the course he had taken, but he • (the speaker) and his party were ashamed of it, and the hon member for City West ; actually blushed at such conduct. He fully | expected that his conduct would attract more | adherents to their side from Otago than ;r | had withdrawn.

Mr Macasdskw, said that with mu:: | sorrow be deprecated the repetition of aits? 4 dinner conversation that might have pas- | between himself and the hon member k- | ■ Waitemata. He showed that all that uJ | been narrated by Mr Wood was more than in earnest Ho could not account | the action of the hon member, and sa:;*- ij that he (the speaker) had said or doc ™ | , merely for the benefit of the party. The Hon J. Hall said that the reason’tT private conversations had been that House was because the hon. nap- | for the Thames had set the example o: “• | porting such conversations. It coma not - « said that the hon. member for Wait* 1 * | had any selfish motives in acting us be k , done, and in doing what he had he hit! a | best for the country, to the abandonee | i party. He defended Mr Wood’s condut | i some length, and referred to the views « , held in reference to the education sv- -■ | With respect to what was duo to - | he urged that he merely agreed to repa • a injustice, and that pledge applied not o | Auckland; but to every other_ part o, . |; Colony. With respect to any | was never anything of the kind said or | on. He denied that the House had au - ■ to ask for the private correspond l -' ll members or Ministers. . . Hr Moss felt the gmtest possible ~ approaching the subject under dßb ’ t 0 | he would not be doing his duty in h |v the provincial district he represented) - not danounoe in the strongest termsi « duct of the hon member for Wa.. - . The fact was that correspondence w f reveal the auma for which the fc plicated were willing to sell f The Premier had said he would not lfc *Hon John Hau.: I said that if tiert i were any 1 would not produce lt * , ,y. Mr MOSS said if he were he would call that an evasion. H 1 ; f erring to the telegram which .it was WSKJSJ “ d d . enie f -jjfa farther i‘ - “ du! ' :i thmgto do with the telegram. . • | Mr Moss proceeded to ex PffL mem bei s ■ and disgust at the course “ l 6 ij for Waitemata had taken, and pre _ sU inp it as of the grossest ca ,tto- w tion. He gave Mr Wood a g, tion m connection with 018 vb jt ! 1 dare not trust himself to 88 y i( j ere d that * he fait on the matter, and <»“» ld ber! h*, 1 the conduct of the seceding » ul .tlani ... lowered the whole °f on fthehc n He ahowed that on other member for Waitemata ha* » declaring agaiiit coalition hid w™ L ., acted contrary to his deolamtio • Mr Waksfiku) jvutified * 8 J ed( bd M the four members, .who, ne Ajjgt * acted on purely public t o the* 1 blame whatever was “I 111 He sarcaetuff 1 for what they had done. £ Meters that | commented on the n .“ mb ** ; nted in c»*< 9 were expecting to be .•OT“jft he TO ts f | the Opposition haring i°, D ® M want I case could the party, have | P* liAriobß taunted thej^“ t ® e I

rtiVrt and, if ha were not mistaken, under That of Mr Larnach. He denied, therefore, that the hon memhar iraa to bo ooniiaered a I'odgo of honesty of consistency. ... He reviewed the conduct of the Government in virtually bribing members to rota with them on the ere of a non-confidence motion. He thought there was a great deal 'behind .what the non member for Waitemata had told them, and be charged'that gentleman/with haring gone over to the Government to obtain revenge, because Sir-Hforge not .given nim an appointment at Home that he 6I Sr Wood denied that this was the case. Mr Db liaotoub proceeded, and gave further particulars as to Mr Wood;s conduct ,in the caucuses held by the Opposition, and 8 characterised the course he had taken as most dishonourable. He denied thutthe people of? Auckland desired the sacrifice of personal honour bn the part of any of their representatives, of that they would seal actof treachery (hat had been exhibited; He showed the sacrifices that the South Island 'had made for the North, and it was pitiable to be betrayed in such a manner that blood itself would not wipe out. (Cheers.) They bad been betrayed. Confidence had been broken, and they bad been sold. He censured the Government, who professed to be honourable men,-for the manner in which they had purchased votee, and also those who unquestionably had had their price. With »• .speot to Auckland, bad that district wished to commit suicide, the members who had ■seceded had aided it. Therewasa memorandum, though the Premier had denied it. He would say that in the face of the shameful disaster to respect, every member as .representing a constituency ought to hold ■aloof from them, neither to speak to or know members outride that Souse who had forfeited all confidence and their own integrity. (Cheers.) . . , Mr Pink denounced the practices of the ICtovemment : as the most corrupt that had ever been known in any British colony. Mr Taiktti considered the thing of promiring £500,000 to any particular part of the Colony unheard of, and members wbuld soon make it a rule to offer their votes to the Cfovemmentat so mueh a pieoe. The monqy , was really spent in buying the votes. K S aaoh a thing had been done by the Maon f members they would hare been blamed by f -OTKPjbodVa .Mr Speight said he folly expected thattha j hon member for Auckland City West would ■ turn traitor and sell his party and constituents, and tiler* were hundreds in Auckland who would not he surprised on the receipt of the news. He denied that the object pleaded by those who had gone over, namely, to bring the deadlock to an end, had been gained, for ■the majority of the Government was not so luge as that of the Opposition was just before, and matters were far more implicated ! -than over. . Mr Tawhai was sorry to see some of the Auckland members had heads like rats, . because the food of his ancestors was rats. The hon member made a most forcible speech f in condemnation of the course pursued by [ ; those who had gone over to the Ministerial [ i party, almost every sentence of which was ' loudly applauded. Ur £ Lisiob spoke at soma length in condemnation of the Government md those Auckland members who had joined their ranks. Mr Ptkb read some correspondence to .show that Mr Wood had mentioned half a .million as the probable sum that would accrue to Auckland, and had given such ini formation on the understanding that it > would be telegraphed to the Auckland **Sajor Tb Whbobo, Mr Hutchison, Mr fitrpTwagTj and Mr TirßSßtri.L spoke against the Government. The debate was adjourned till next sitting -’day, and the House , adjourned at 1.5 a.m. till Tuesday. : ‘ '•