HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
- AY, APRIL 2§, 1858. The 1 "House met at 3 o'clock. Present: the Speaker and 16 members. Mr. Richmond laid on the table a number of customs returnß, during the year 1857 for the various Provinces of New Zealand. Mr. Stafford laid on the table returns in connecton with the Postal Service of New Zealand. Petitions.— Mr. Caeleton presented a petition signed by nearly all the residents in the district of Hawkes Bay, praying for separation from the Province of Wellington. The petition was received and ordered to be printed. Mr. Beckham presented a petition from Bishop Pompalier praying for the introduction of a Bill to enable the sale of certain Roman Catholic endowments in the City of Auckland and its vicinity, The petition was received. Notices of Motion. Several notices of motion were given which will be found in our report of Wednesday's proceedings. Govxrnuent Business. Mr. Stafford pursuant to notice moved for leave to bring in a Bill to ascertain and define the boundaries of the several provinces of New Zealand. The hon. member stated that the government had been mainly induced to bring in a measure of this kind in consequence of disputes at present existing on the question of boundary between the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury. It was manifestly impossible for the Government to take upon itself to decide such disputes, and it had therefore been thought advisable to introduce a bill to enable a commissioner to enquire into and decide disputes of this kind whenever they might occur between the Provinces of the Colony. The Bill vras r brought in, read a first time and its second reading made an order for the next sitting day. J^£Z~ Gexbral Btjbintws. **^drT Graham pursuant- to -notice asked what steps Jiave been taken by the Government for extinguishing the NativeSKtle over the gold bearing district of Coromandel, and also if the Government contemplate making any arrangement with those natives who may be found unwilling to dispose of their lands so as to enable parties to obtain the right of digging for gold on Nativetands. He was aware that the Government had taken some steps to acquire land in the district, but he was not aware that everything had been done that might have been done. He understood that much had been left in the hands of a missionary residing in the district, who possessingjlittle or no influence in the district Vas not likely to induce the natives to part with their land. He was of opinion too that missionaries were not the proper persons to/ be entrusted With the management of such affairs. The lion, member drew the attention of the house to a rerent large die of land, and the preliminary steps that had been taken to develop the mineral resources , in the district of Coromandel nnd thought that the belief which had induced the eager purchase of this land, namely the existence of a remunerative gold field in the district, justified him in asking what steps the government contemplated in order to induce the natives to afford facilities to Europeans to search for gold. Some time since he believed the natives were willing to make arrangements for allowing Europeans to work on their lands in a limited number, and under the sanction of the Government, and he had expected that the Government would have sent down officers to inquire into the possibility of effecting such arrangements. Mr. Stafford said that the Government had no obT jection to afford the hon. member the information desired but he thought that when questions involved much discursive matter and statements such as had been made the government bad a right to know before hand what they had to deal with, and he would suggest that when any hon. member wished to introduce matter for debate he; should adopt the proper course of making motion instead of putting it in the form of » question to the Government. He would state that the Government had ta--step in tccordan.ee with #ie rule establjsed, for
obtaininglnnd in the district referred to, indeed as much as fiVe times the usual amount ptid for native land had i been offered without" avail, the natives being under the impression that if they parted with their land the ruth of Europeans would be so great as to lead to their extinction, and" lie regretted to say that this idea had been instilled into their minds by an evil disposed person. Ihe hon. member was to a certain extent correct in his allusion to the authority conferred upon Mr. Preece, (for that gentlemanhe believed was the missionary referred to) but he was not correct in supposing that he was the only, person who had been authorised to negotiate wjth^the natives for their land, indeed that gentleman was instructed to do litUe more than, as opportunity occurred, to use his exertions on- behalf of the Government for acquiring land. The Chief Land Commissioner had been sent down and Mr. Heaphy had also been engaged in negotiations with the natives, but their efforts had been frustrated by the person he had alluded to. The Governor himself had proposed to meet the natives of the district, not for the purpose of negotiating for land, but in a friendly and concilitary spirit, but the same evil disposed person induced the natives not to meet His Excellency fheaTßlaT). It was perfectly true that the Government had not entered into any arrangements with the natives to enable Europeans to search for gold because experience had shown that allowing irregular occupancy 0 of native land was the greatest obstacle to obtaining an extinction of the native title. The hon member's own argument proved how undesirable it was to recognize this irregular occupancy. He,itated'th*t'the natives were willing to allovr a few Europeans only to work on their land under the sanction of the Government, their object being to have the value of their land tested, and to jraise their demands accordingly. The Government had never refrained^ either by causing the natives to be visited or by interviews with their chiefs in Auckland from endeavouring to induce them to part with their lands for which, as he had before stated, five times the ordinary price had been offered, an offer which had been refused solely in consequence of their having been led to believe that by yielding up their territory they would ensure their own extinction. Bkodie pursuant to notice was about to move for "correspondence in referrence to the appointment of Mr. Wayland as Clerk in the Resident Magistrate's Court Auckland, when he was requested by Mr. Williamson as a personal favour to postpone the motion on account of the absence of Mr. Beckham who was called away by, other duties from the House. Mr. Brodib expressed his willingness to comply with the request. Mr. Stafford thought that the motions in reference to this matter had been placed on the paper under some excitement and would suggest to the hon. members whether it would not be better to withdraw them^ltOgether. Mr. Carleton called the hon. member to order on the ground that there was no question before, the house. Mr. Brodie said he would with leave of the house withdraw the motion. Mr. Stafford apprehended he would be in order in making some observations on the question of leave to withdraw the motion. He had only to renew his entreaty that hon. members would withdraw th» three notices on the paper that day as they all more or less applied to questions which had unhappily risen out of the strife ot Provincial politics. No good could result from bringing the questions before that house inasmuch as it was not the tribunal by which they could be decided. The House could come to no decision upon them and the only effect of its intefference would be to shew England and all her colonies that Provincial squabbles were constantly forced upon the records of that House. It was the intention of the Government to introduce some changes which would have the effect ef preventing a recurrence of such a state of things, changes which would not have- a retrospective effect and which therefore could not possibly be effected by the production, of thejlacumehts asked for. Carleton although scarcely feeling quite in qrdei would take the same privilege as that taken by the hon. member at the head of the Government. In reference to the two first notice* on the paper he was desirous of seeing the documents laid on the table ; with regard to the third (Dr. Lee's) hervfor obvious reasons expressed no opinion. He desired that the papers he had referred to should be produced because he paw a grave question looming in the distance namely the apportionment of powersTieiween the General and the Provincial Governments. By permission accorded fron^ttfjme, it was now competent for the House to make changes in the Constitution Act, and it was possible that availing themselves of such permission the Government might propose* to introduce changes in the mode affections of Superintendents and in the powers they should exercise. He said it was possible that such might be the i ntention of the Government, for the Governor's Speech htd left them in ignorance on the matter. Tne honorable member had vouchsafed, a little by giving notice of the intention of Government to propose such changes as would prevent a recurrence of the state of things which had given rise to the necessity for the present inquiry, but he must observe that had such information been sooner afforded it might have prevented these notices being given at all, and the Government it they suffered annoyance or inconvenience from them had only themselves to thank. It was highly important that the country should know whether, or how far Superintendent's shoulJ be allowed to abuse the powers conferred upon them, with impunity, and also whether the General Government intended to resume any of the powers which had been so incautiously handed orer to Provincial Governments. He himself had a full knowledge of the documents moved for Williamson) but until they were before the house he could have no formal knowledge of them, and were he to make any statements founded upon those documents he might be very probably be called to order for referring to matters of which he not formal knowledge. He trusted therefore that the correspondence moved for could be produced and that the^inistry would not be instrumental in smothering enquiry. \ Williamson said that on a former occasion he had not the opportunity of answering attacks made against him by the hon. member for the Bay who haq^. taken the opportunity of assailing him when he (Mr." Williamson was absent from the House. Mr. Carleton rose to order. Mr. Williamson had no doubt that his observations were distasteful to the hon. member, who he believed had only adopted towards him his usual style of assailing his foes. So far from being desirous that this motion should be withdrawn he was anxious that all the informaeion required should be afforded and the whole matter fairly investigated in order that it might be rightly understood by persons living away from Auckland , especially after the observations which had fallen from the honorable member for the Bay, who taking advantage of hig absence — Mr. Carleton again rose to order ; tne hon. member had no Tight to make such an assertion. Mr. Williamson had of his own accord left the House at the very time he (Mr. Carleton) resumed the discussion on the reply to the Governor's address. Mr. Williamson had heard that the hon. member was about to make a six-hours' Bpeech in which there ,was to be nothing offensive to the Government. Mr. Carleton said that the hon. member was again out of order. Mr. Williamson. — He was told that such was to be to be the case, and that the hon. member had taken care to put his intentions in such a channel as to reach the Governor's ears. Mr. Carleton. — The hon. member is stating that which is absolutely contrary to fact. Mr. Williamson believed that he was correct in what he said. He had left the House on the occasion referred to, because he did not consider it necessary to remain during the speech of the hon. member, who had implied an insult to him at a time when he well knew he (Mr. Williamson) would be out of order in replying to it. He was, therefore, most anxious that the whole question should be thoroughly investigated, inasmuch as it would lead to the bringing forward some matters which would be all the better for sifting. He only wished for a postponement of the motion in order that any observation! he miglit have to make should be made when jhe hon. member for the City (Mr.Beckham) wgs in his place. Richmond said that the hon. member at the head of the Government in speaking of proposed changes had not referred to any changes in the Constitution Act for intejfering with the Executive powers of Superintendents, he Colonial Secretary had adverted to changes by which future provision for Resident Magistrates would be male on the'GeneraflSs.tiniates. This alteration, he believed, would be made with the universal consent of the Province of Auckland. (-Hear, hiasyjv. He could not see, therefore, that the correspondence moved for was at all needed, and he believed that tke hon. member for the Bay\would, on reflection, be of the same opinion. It was also* the intention of Government to place Resident Magistrates altogether beyond the reach of political influence, and to do away with the possibility of their becoming involved in party contention or political agitation. (Sear, hen.).. ' SS^fffc Merriman explained that his object in placing the motion on the paper standing in his name was merely to obtain the whole of the correspondence, Mr. Brodie only having moved for a portion of it. He thought that this House was not the right tribunal. The question should be twed by an impartial and unpledged jury. Messages from the Legislative Council. The honorable the Attorney General and the b.o.n.qra.ble Mr, Menzies wer« introduced as a deputation
frnm the Legislative Council bringing up the Absent Debtor's Bill which had passed the Council and praying the concurrence of the house therein. On the motion of Mr. Stafford the bill was read a first time and its second reading made an order for the next sitting day. ,
Debate Resumed. Mi*. Carleton rose to order the honorable member had no right to insinuate that the House would deal with any question in any other than a fair and impartial spirit. Mr. Merriman said that if his remarks had not been interrupted by the message from the Legislative Council, the honorable member for the Bay would not have had the pleasure of calling him to order. As usual that hon. member had placed the very strongest construction on the words used and had given to them a meaning never intended. When that hon. member interrupted him he was about to say that whilst he was certain that every member of the home would, on this and every other question give a conscientious vote, still he would defy him to enter into discussion on such questions as were under consideration altogether in an unprejudiced spirit, because he believed that the feelinejof a majority of the Province was against the Executive. In spite of himself he would be in some degree biassed and I whilst believing that he was voting conscientiously would be more or less led always by such bias. His only reason for moving, in the present matter was to supplement the motion of Mr. Brodie who had given notice only for a portion of the correspondence instead of the whole. If that hon. member, however, withdrew his motion, he Mr. Merriman would withdraw his motion also. Mr. Henderson expressed his surprise at hearing from the hon. member for the Suburbs that the feeling of the Province was so strong against the Government. Mr. Merriman explained that he had referred to the Provincial Executive, not to the Ministry. Mr. Graham thought that the information affoided by the Government formed a sufficient reason for the withdrawal of the motion. He should have been very glad had the question come before the house to htfve left its decision entirely in the hands of the Southern members. | Question that Mr. Brodie have leave to withdraw his motion put and passed. Mr. Daldy declining to accede to Mr. Stafford's proposition for withdrawing the motion with the others hearing upon Provincial differences, moved that copies iof all correspondence relative to the dissolution of the late Provincial Council of Auckland, other than that already published in the 'Government Gazette , be laid on the table~of>this House. The questiSnjafter very slight discussion was put and passjxl. \ - ', i^Mr. Lek pursuant to notice, moved that the copies of the declarations and documents transmitted by him to the Registrar of the Supreme Court, Auckland, for the information of His Honor the Chief Justice, on the 11th clay of March, 185 S. In moving for this correspondence* the hon. member denied having acted in combination with any other members in the matter. Mr. Williams on -trusted that the motion would be negatived $s he believed that it had been brought forward" for the purpose of annoying a member of that Houge. \ ;.-, ( ' • • Mr.. CjCrj^ont whilst abstaining altogether from toucfiUg tipqij. tl\e>question itself, could not allow the imput^ojis'Jbagt^pon members of the House by the hon. memtfejifor the Pensioner Settlements to pass unnoticed. He "TielieYcd that the great majority of th& members altogether cast aside party spirit in that House and were guided by no other rule than that of doing what they believed to be right; by that rule he himself had always been guided, and by that rule he should still be guided, utterly repudiating such imputations as had been oast by members on the other side. Question put and passed. .£**£■-" Orders op the Day. H\t.l resumed the debate on the question that the Election Writs Bill be not transmitted to the Legislative Council until Wednesday next. He had considered the matter carefully and had come to the conclusion that it was not too late to deal with the Bill even though if had gone through all its stages prier to transmission to the upper House. The rule of the House of Commons is that questions of privilege supersede all other rules and all other orders of the House, and if he were correct in applying that rule to this particular case then it would be competent for the Jlguse to order the bill to be recommitted. Hon. member moved a resolution to that effect. The Speaker was convinced that the House had the power to arrest the bill in its present stage on ascertaining that the privileges of the House would otherwise be interfered with. He thought it would be a good precedent, on this occasion, to rescind the motion ior taking the bill down to the Legislative Council, and to order that it be recommitted for the next sitting day. Mr. Richmond seconded the motion, which was carried. Mr Stafford, pursuant to notice, moved the second reading of the Postal Service Bill, and briefly ran through the principal provision* of the Bill, which was read a second time and considered in committee, as far as clause 21, at which stage the Chaumah reported progress, and the House adjourned.
WEDNESDAY, April 28. The House met at 3 o'clock. Present: the Speaker and 16 members. Mr. Forsaith, the newly elected member for the City of Auckland, was introduced by Messrs. Stafford and Richmond, and, having taken the oath of allegiance, was congratulated by the Speaker on his return to the House. Mr. Richmond laid on the table of the House copies of depositions taken before the Resident Magistrate's Coui t at New Plymouth, in the case of the information laid by Walter Morrison against some Maories. Two notices of motion were given, which will be found in a report of yesterday's proceedings. Merchant Seamen' '#- Act. = slr. East, in asking the Colonial Secretary '* If it be the intention of the Government to introduce during the present Session any Merchant Seamen's Act, Merchant Shipping Act, or Passenger Act, or any Bill or Bills that shall, as far as applicable to the circumstances of the Colony, embody the provisions of the English Law on these subjects : said his only object in putting the question was to elicit information as to whether the Government were taking any steps for remedying evils which were patent to every member of the House. Mr. Stafford said (as- our reporter understood) that ] such a measure was occupying the attention of the GoI vernment.
Roman Catholic Endowments. Mr. Beckham in moving, pursuant- to notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise the sale of certain lands at Takapuna, in the North Suburbs of Auckland, appropriated for the maintenance and education of children of both races, and of children of other poor persons, being inhabitants of the Islands in the Pacific Ocean ; and likewise to authorise the sale of land situated in Nelson-street, City of Auckland, and set apart as a site for the erection of a Church for the Roman Catholic Natives ; said he should have Hut very few remarks to offer, as the notice itself contained nearly all the information required. The principal object of the motion was to relieve the Roman Catholic Bishop of what was really an incumbrance. The difficulty of passing to and from the North Shore rendered the land at Tapakuna almost useless, from the great difficulty of ' bringing produce into the market. It was proposed also to sell the land in Nelson Street, and with the money to build a chapel, to be erected in a superior site, in a place more calculated to insure morality amonst the Natives. The proceeds of the gale of land on the North Shore would be devoted to the prosecution of Missionary duties with greater vigour. Question put and passed. On the motion of Mr. Beckhak the bill was read a first time. Mr. Bbckham then moved" That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report upon the private Bill, entituled'lJhe Auckland Roman Catholic Takapuna and Nelson. street Endowments Sales Act, 1858.'' The Committee to consist of Mr. Speaker, the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. Carleton, Mr. Lee, Mr. Hall, Mr.Daldy, Mr. Ollivier, Mr. Graham, and the mover ; with power to call for persons and papers. The Keport to be brought up on Tuesday next." Question put and passed. ■The Speaker, in accordance with the rule applying to private bills, appointed*^ past 2 o'clock, on Tuesday, for a meeting of the House, to take into consideration the report of the Committee. Appointment of Sheriffs, $c. Mr. Stafford in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Law relating to the Appointment and Duties of Sheriffs and Gaolers, said that the Government had prepared this measure in consequence of the uncertainty which at present existed in regard to the duties of Sheriffs in New Zealand some of which were ( of a local character, others again necessarily controlled by the General Government. It was proposed to effect a separation of the local duties from the general, and that every Sheriff after the passing of this Act should be appointed by the General Government, Superintendents having the power of appointing wardens, jailors, and other officers required for the management ot prisons and the safe custody of prisoners. The hon. member had briefly adverted to the provisions of thet Bill moved that it be re*d a first time. \
Mr. Richmond seconded the motion. The Bill was read a fir3t time, ordered-io be printed and its second reading made an ordei for the following i^^Slr. Hall in moving that * respectful address be presented to His Excellency, requesting him to cause a sum of £200 ' to be placed on the Estimates for the purchase of books for the library of the General Assembly dwelt upon the absolute necessity that existed for forming a Library for the use of the members of the House, the only question was whether the sum proposed would be sufficient for the purpose. He was given to undprstand that a considerable portion of the sum of £U 0 voted last session had been expended in keeping up the file of newspapers, which could not properly be dispensed with- as they formed useful historical references. If it should be considered that £200 was insufficient he was open to receive suggestions from hon. members. Mr. Beckiiam was of opinion that £tOO would not bo more than sufficient and he would suggest that sum to the hon. member. Mr. Hall was rather at a loss to know how to act in the matter until he was in possession of some report of ways and means from the Government. He really did not know whether £400 could be afforded for the purpose and would therefore rather leave the Government to v fix the amount. Mr. Richmond suggested the sum of £300. The motion was altered in accordance with this suggestion and carried. Mr. Stapi-oiid's motion that the replies to the Addresses from this House to Her Majesty in its last Session, be printed on the Journals of the House, wa3 carried without discussion. Mr. OLijviFii'sraot'onthat copiesjof/correspondencejin reference to the boundaries of thp several Provinces of New Zealand, which may have taken place between the General and Provincial Governments, be laid upon the table of this House, was after a slight discussion passed.
OIIDEKS OF THE DAY. The Hoase went into Committee on the Electoral Writs Bill. " *ft*%"x. CLirroßn although he must take censure to lum'selffor not having noticed the irregularity in the Bill I at an earlier stage, inasmuch as the Government had handed it to him for perusal before introducing it, could not altogether regret that these proceedings had taken place, inasmuch as it would leave as a precedent on their books that the House could recal at the latest moment any measures which would interfere with their pm ileges ; he was quite certain that even if the bill had been forwarded to the Legislative Council it could have been got back by message from the House. The second clause of the bill was the one which affected their privileges in making it lawful for the Governor to receive resignations of members when the House was not in session, and he was of opinion that that clause might be so far amended as to cause resignations to be foiwarded to the Governor of to the Speaker. .IWSpeaker having received the resignation of a member should notify the same to the Governor who thereupon might issue a "Writ for supplying the vacancy. All they required wa» that the Speaker should he satisfied that a vacancy did exist. The only difficulty he sawlwasthat which might bo occasioned by the death of a Speaker or his absence from the Colony. This difficulty was overcome in the House of Commons by theappointmentof a committee who have power to issue Writsmsuch cases, but the difficulty here would be who to appoint on such Committee ; for the Electoral districts were so scattered that it would be in all probability more difficult to get at the Committee than the Speaker himself If the Committee again were only composed of one or two members, jealousies might be created and however conscientious the members of the Committee might be in the discharge of their duties, it would not prevent others from reflecting on them. He saw a great deal of difficulty in the matter, but perhaps hon members would find some means of dealing with it: his own opinion was that in such cases as he had referred to the Governor might be empowered to issue the Writ, as he thought that he was the best person with whom to entrust the privileges of the House. The hon. member then read the amendments which he proposed to intoduee in the Bill, eiaase 1-was then made clause 3 of the *5mU, and the Chairman reported progress and obtained 'leave to sit again on the following day. j The Militia Bill passed through Committee, the chairman reported progress, and the House adjourned.
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Daily Southern Cross, Daily Southern Cross, Volume XV, Issue 1131, 30 April 1858
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Daily Southern Cross, Volume XV, Issue 1131, 30 April 1858
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