Friday, February 1, 1856.

Daily Southern Cross, Volume XIII, Issue 899, 8 February 1856, Page 3

Friday, February 1, 1856.

We continue our report of the adjournd debate upon the Reply to the Superintendent's Address* The Provincial Secretary said that since members on the other side of the house insisted on his rising at that early period of the debate, he would reply to the arguments of the four members who had spoken. The hon. member, after a mock eulogium upon the lncidness and brilliancy of Major Greenwood's speech, pointed out its fallacies and truisms, and called upon him to make good his statement that the Superintendent had informed us that the only way to get over the present depression was to grow barley instead of potatoes. It was not by such broad perversions that the hon. and gallant member would make good his case. After admitting, in answer to Mr. O'Neill, that the reply had been drawn by himself— a customary proceeding, as that hon. member knew perfectly well, the Provincial Secretary proceeded to observe upon a more serious matter, — Mr. O'Neill's observation that he (Mr C.) knowing his strength, having a majority behind him, would not deign to reply. He would state, once fo all, that he was not aware of any majority for the Superintendent in that Council ; nor would he himself take any pride in leading a party that would vote mechanically with the Executive. But one thing he was quite sure of, that there was a majority of the Progress Party in that Council, and that so long as the Superintendent sent down Progressive measures, he would receive support. It had been said that the Reply to the Address shut out the hope of accommodation — yet it had been framed in the opposite view. His own main object was to conciliate the opposite party by every means in his power. He was not there for the purpose of making party fight, or engaging in continual debate ; his duty, and his wish was to get through the business of the Province as quickly and as quietly as possible. The hon. member then entered into the question of the Land Regulations. He contended that the Reply did not pledge any member to the support of those Regulations, but only to the five principles on which they were stated to be based. The first four of these were undeniable — as to the fifth, upon which some difference of opinion might be, for it excluded special occupation land, he was ready to risk a division. Public opinion had declared against special occupation. The hon. member went at length into the question, and concluded by asking, — who had taken such special occupation lands hitherto ? Was it the working men ? On the contrary, thay had been taken up in large blocks by capitalists . (Question, from Mr. Dilworth). By the cry of question, it appeared that x.. „_.» -r-».-.- .-w •— tt , i. u o ; t down, but rise again as often as he was called upon. Mr. May, in reply to what had fallen from the hon. and gallant member for the Pensioner Settlements, referred more particularly to his remarks upon the depression that existed. The hon. member did not believe in that depression, but it «houhl not be forgotten that, in a mixed community, what was depression to one clas-s might be an advantage to another. lie knew peisons, engaged in agricultuie, who, in order to pay their way, had been obliged either to sell their crops at a ruinously low price, or to borrow money at a high rate of interest. A month or two ago money could be obtained at 10 per cent. ; now it could not be obtained under Id to 20 per cent. He also knew persons who had money to lend ; and who, therefore, were enabled to lend it to advantage. He (Mr. May) belonged to one class and — the hon. and gallant member to another ; both therefore might be so far correct. But the class of which he (Mr. May) was a member was suffering under depression, and he believed that a still greater depression was impending. The hon. member had also dissented from the Land Regulations, — possibly because they contained aio military clauses — because they did not sanction legislation for a class. Another hon. member had more than insinuated that the members who supported the Government stood towards the Provincial Secretary in the same relation as his soldiers did to the Centurion of •old. This was a very uncalled-for reflection upon those hon. members, who, he believed, were quite as independent in their opinions as the hon. member who had so spoken. One hon. member had stated that the special occupation clauses were beneficial to the poor man ; but these clauses, he considered, were a mere sham. It was men of means who had principally availed themselves of this system. He had been himself a very poor man. He might have taken 500 acres under these clauses, but, without money, and a good deal too, he did not see what he could do with them. The fact that the immigration clauses were left out was also an objection. But the system of granting land to immigrants •was not only an act of injustice to the old settlers, but, as regards the new, would be very partial in its effect. He believed that the system of assisted passages would •work more advantageously. Another word upon military settlers. He had no objection to the soldiers who had fought for the colony receiving a recompense ; but military settlers generally were no better than others — if even so good. As to their being a defence against the Maories, they were not likely to fight unless paid for it ; and any one, with a little training, would be able, if necessary, to handle a rifle. Major Greenwood said that the hon. member of the Executive had entertained them with an anecdote of the King of Prussia's grenadiers. It was a pretty story, very well told, and all that sort of thing, but had nothing whatever to do with the question. The hon, member had said that it was the place of the Executive to defend a line of policy against the opposition. But he (Major G.) had always believed that it was a part of good government to study how to act so as to carry the opposition with it. A majority for the government had been referred to ; of whom that majority was composed he would now say nothing. Some of them had been heard to cry hear, hear ; two of them har. spoken — one repeatedly — yet he (Major G.) was no wiser than before. Reference had been made to progress members. He was in favour of real progress— not a word merely to talk of and convert into the sign of a party, like the stars and stripes. He had a stake in the country. He hoped to live there to the end of his days, and to leave his children in it behind him. The Provincial Secretary had told them that he knew Hokianga. He (Major G.) would be very glad to hear some information about Hokianga. He would be very glad to hear, with exemplary patience, the three hours speech with which they had been threatened. He would even move that it be printed. Another hon. member of the Executive had said that the farmers were so much depressed, as to be obliged to sell their crops at a nominal price. If such was the case he could only say that he, and, he was sure, another firm, ■were quite prepared to purchase. It had been stated that he was a capitalist, and would profit by a period of depression. He had, it was true, some portion of this •world's gear, but would he lend it on bad security ? If everything was going, as had been represented," to —a certain place, it would be poor policy for him to lend money even at thr^e times the rate of interest. The thing was an absurdity. The Provincial Secretary said that the discussion ■was becoming one of a most unprofitable character. The hon. member's speech had conveyed the idea that his Honor had represented the colony as in a state of insolvency. Where would the hon. member find such a statement, or any thing like it ? Would hon. members really be good enough to take the Address as they found it. Major Greenwood said that a member of the Executive had told them of farmers being obliged to sell their produce for half nothing. It' that was not insolvency, fee dio!n't know what was.

Mr Buckland said that the reply had been described t as a mere echo of the Address. He presumed, then, they were expected to echo the sentiment that barley ■ should be grown instead of potatoes. A comparison , had been drawn in the Address between the exports of 1838 and those of the present time, when it was well known that, since that date, many thousands of acres had been put under cultivation. He was very son y that his Honor had not possessed better means ot information. They were also told in the Address that a Road Bill was nnder consideration; but they had no means of knowing whether that Bill embodied a general plan, or on what piinciple it was based. So far as he could learn, its principle was,— The people in the ; country will be permitted to mend their own roads, and we will spend the money for them. Refeiencewas made to borrowing money. He did not believe in debt. Out of debt, out of danger, was his maxim. One great principle in the Address connected with borrowing money, anJ one to which he strongly objected, ■ was, that the money proposed to be so borrowed, was to be spent by an irresponsible Executive. He hoped the Council would be favored with more information from the Executive. Unless they consented to lift the veil, he could not consent to vote for a mere echo of the address. Mr. Powditch thought that, beiug on the point of leaving the colony, it would be wrong if he did not express his opinion. They had been told that voting the Reply would not eompiomise hon. members upon the subject of the proposed land regulations— that the reply amounted to a mere acquiescence in the principles upon which they were based. But if hon. members passed th.it reply they would affirm the land regulations in their entirety. He had studied the land question for more than 30 years, and believed tha existing regulations were far more suitable to the colony. The one encouraged immigration; the other would thiow it aside, and substitute borrowing money for the purpose of importing large bodies of paupers. That is tQ say, a class that it would suit the large landholders to employ. But the colony wanted settlers who would carry with them a maral ascendancy — not workhouse inmates. The Council had certainly to thank the Superintendent for the array he had placed before them in the shape of an Executive. Last year, they had only one representative of the Government. This, they had four, and these, in turn, might be said to represent Law, Logic, Land, and Labour. They had been told of progress members, but they all wanted progress — not pretended progress for the sake of power, but really progressive measures. He confessed that he could not understand why, for instance, a sensible man like Labour could sit there and listen to the speeches of Logic. The Superintendent had admitted that there was no greater check to progress than violent and arbitrary changes, yet he tacitly sanctions the policy of his predecessor, in rendering municipal institutions inoperative. Why did not the Provincial Secretary stand up, and explain the policy of the Government, instead of leaving it to be guessed at? Why, for instance, not state the grounds of objection to the existing Land Regulations, instead of violently sweeping away every clause. Reference had been made to a period of coming depression ; but he remembered well when potatoes fetched £2, which were now worth £5 10s. Flour, also, was almost at a famine price ; and yet the Superintendent would recommend the settleis to discontinue growing potatoes and wheat, in order to grow barley to make beer. Did his own beer speculation at Hobson's bridge turn out so well ? With regard to the special occupation clause of the present land regulations, an hon. member opposite believed that the feeling of the country was against these clauses. He did not believe that. That the regulations were, in some points, objectionable, he admitted ; but these objections could easily be removed. He believed that, a little simplified, they would be agreed to without a dissentient voice" out of the Council ; he would not say in it. The whole tenor of the Address was to depreciate this province in particular. Ha believed that ther j was no present depression, but that, in so misgoverned a province, a depression, some time or other, was ine\ itable. Allusion had been made to intemperance among the natives, yet it was proposed to introduce a beer bill — that fruitful source of sly grog selling. They had all huard of the demoralization which had flow eJ from the system introduced by the last Superintendent, of licensing grog shops in. the interior — a power which ought now to be taken away. It was true that this power had been oiiginally granted to Col. WynyaTd, but he was a man in whom the country had confidence. The province then went ahead. In the time of his successor it was nothing but stop, stop. The Speaker here interfered. The Council Chamber was not the place to speak of the respective meiits of Col. Wynyard and Mr. Brown. Mr. PowDircu, in continuation. The first clause of the reply was quite sufficient to induce him to vote against it. .- Mr. Dilworth said that the oomluct of the Execu- ; tlVe "\V<l3 CllCUiiuwvu....^ _.- i -» m- o tx- t _-..i.c1l that they, as his Honor had so pointedly refened to | them, would satisfy the Council with the necessary ex- j planations. j The Pkovin'cfal Sfcuetary said that if hon. members would state what they w>uitod to know, he would answei them if he could. If he could not, he would ask for time. He had certainly been askad why he did not state the policy of the government on the subject of j municipal corporations. What more could .h-e say than j what was in the address ? His own opinion was, that the affairs of the city could be managed by the Provincial Government much batter than by an expensive corporation. But he might be mistaken. If the inlia- . bitants wanted a council, a demonstration would cer- [ tainly be made, in which case the Supeiintendent would I do his best to get it in proper and legal foim. With regard to the land regulations, he had been asked why the legislation of the last two yeais should all be thrown away. He might be allowed to remind hon. members how many voted against these regulations, how many members were absent, and how — illegally, he considered — the standing orders had been suspended for many weeks. The leader of the Executhe had stated that it would be unjust to the next Superintendent to pass these regulations ; yet, on the motion ot the hon. member for the Southern Division (Mr. Dilworth), thjy had been passed ; and been inflicted upon the province. Mr. Merrimax said that, if hon. members had stated on the hustings that they intended to do away with the working settlers' clauses, these members would not be in that Council. He would moye — "That the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again on Tuesday." His obiect in doing so wa s, if possible, to force from the Executive the explanation demanded on all sides. The Provincial Secretary would oppose any adjournment. He was Willing to sit there till midnight to finish the debate ; but the business of the Province had to be g»t through, and it was difficult for the Superintendent to send down business till he know the nature of the reply. There was other work for Tuesday. If hon. members would not be satisfied without a long speech from him, he was quite willing to examine the address clause by clause, and to speak for three hours on it. Mr. A. O'Neill took the opportunity of stating, in opposition to what had fallen from the Provincial Secletary, that the City Council had only received £200 C from the funds of the Province, but with that had been enabled to do much. The hon. member enumerated the works and improvements that had been effected by that body. Mr. J. O'Neill supported the adjournment. It was necessary that members, as well as the public, should have time to consider the small beer policy that had been propounded. He was the more anxious for a postponement of the debate as it was his intention, on Tuesday, to be prepared with an amendment to the reply. ' After some woids from Messrs. Merriman and Dilworth, — The question of adjournment was put with the following result: — Noes, 12 — M>ssrs. Beckham, Hay.Graham, Schultz, May, Taylor, Henderson, Turner, Goodfellow, Carleton, Bedggood, and Brodie. Ayes, 11— Messrs. Greenwood, A. O'Neill, J. O'Neill, Merriman, Powditch, Dilworth, Williamson, \ Boylan, Brennan, Dignan, and Buckland. . Mr. Dignan said thdt as the hon. member of the t Executive had challenged questions to be put, he would i ask — Whether his Honor the Saperintendent had any objection to the affairs of the Province being conducted on the principle of responsible government ? The Provincial Secretary thought that if introduced, the hon. member and his friends would be the first to exclaim, against it If he (Mr. C.) took the responsibility, ho would have to take the power also. But the opposition would much prefer the present Superintendent to him, in the exercise of power. Major Greenwood said that the Provincial Secretary having admitted himself to be perfectly ignorant of the Superintendent's opinions, there could be no stronger argument for adjournment. Mr. J. O'Neill said that what was good for the General Government was good for the Provincial. Why ' did not the Executive sa -, If we are beaten we are pre- ] pared to walk out and make room for others? Unfortunate Province ! to be subject to the whim of every one who wished to practise legislation. Mr. Merrimax rose to order. The question of Responsible Government was not before the Council. He ] would take tho opportunity of adverting to the egotism [ of the Provincial Secretary, who invariably said I, I, ' instead of appearing to speak of his colleagues. The Provincial Secretary. Because tie (Mr. C.) would have to be prime minister. Mr. Boylax was aware that it was quite possible to i force an adjournment, but thought that such should be no longer opposed.

I Major Greenwood supported the idea of fencing an adjournment. The Piiovixci\l Secretary regretted much that such a course should be adopted. But if that hon. member fell back upon the Standing Orders, he (Mr. C.) could do so likewise. The op osition would find they were making a mistake. It was his business to see that the majority of that Council were not coerced by the minority. M. Bnnociooi) said that time was important. The object of hon. members .should be to push thiough the business Mr. Brckuam spoke in favour of the Superintendent's nddress, characterising it as lucid, and as maiked by a spinty of conciliation. Ho entered at some length into its merits. With legaid to the lvply, it was couched in general term 9. It bound no member to support the line of policy it imlu'iUed. It w & s a mere courteous reply to the Superintendent's addiess, and he was at a loes to understand the object of so much opposition After some desultory d.seussi >n, — The Provincial Secretary said as that the debate had entirely degenerated, he would call for a dhision under the Bth clause of the Standing Orders. Much sensation was manifested, as this overtlnew the successive adjournments. After a time, the Provincial Secretary asked leave to withdraw the motion, lest it should be said that he was disinclined to fair dt-batc. He was content with showing what could be done. Mr. Merriman objected to the withdrawal, as against order. The motion was withdrawn, and the Piovineial Secretary moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday. Mr. O'Neill gave notice, at the same time, of his intention, on that day, to move an amendment to the rep!y. The Council then adjourned.