EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 27, 26 October 1917, Page 7

EXPEDITIONARY FORCES

THE MATTER OF EXEMPTIONS CLERGY AND TEACHERS, Tho debate on the second i .ading of tho Expeditionary Porces Amendment Bill was resumed.

.Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) expressed impatience and disgust. with thoso shirkers who'wcre_ quite willing to be called British subjects, b;: who developed religious or other wruples in time of war. He intended to divide the House on the amendment he had proposed—that the property of such shirkers should be forfeit to the State,

SIR JOSEPH WARD (Minister of Finance) said, that in tlie absence of anything in the Bill to deal with certain matters, he felt he would be shirking a public duty if he waited till the Bill got into Committeo. At the outbreak of the war peoplo of all classes and creeds responded to the call of Empire. No question of creed occurred in this or any other part of the Empire. One of tho notable examples was the suspension of bitter strife between Unionists and Na- ' tionalists in Ireland. Catholic and Protestant Irishmen went to . fight together, suffered together, and many of them died together It was quite true that some Irish political extremists had placed their strifes above the Empire's struggles. He hoped that the Convention would settle the troubles that had vexod Ireland for so long. It was surely the common duty of the Government of Now Zealand to guido our people in : the paths of tolerance, at least during the period of tho war. He felt sure that the House would discyiss temperately the matters to which he would presently refer, and 'he hoped that a decision would be reached which would prevent strife from raging throughout the coiintry. The universal call to servico had raised the question of calling up clergy of all classes, and teacaers of church schools. He ventured to say that the spiritual needs of <ho nation should have consideration, and that the ministrations of the clergy should not be denied to the people. So also he thought that we should follow the example of the United States and England in regard to the exemption of teachers in schools. In America it was the direction of the Prosident thiit no teacher was to leavo the country to go to fight in the war. In England' no 6uch general rule was made. In his opinion if the House would not oxempt ail teachers it should at least give some special consideration to the teachers in some private schools. ' The British Government had exempted male teachers in 1 Catholic schools, even those who had not attained to the grade of Marist Brothers in this country. He 'realised that this was a question on which there was mucli feeling. Ho would not be on the sido of any man who wished to shirk hia duty, but- the Catholic men had done their duty. Up to and including the Twenty-eighth Reinforcements 0721 Catholics had embarked for active service, most of them voluntarily. Sixteen of tho clergy of their Church had gone with the Forces, a#d fourteen were now on service. And the total number of Jlarist Brothers eligible i'or servico, teaching some 2000 children in eleven schools, paid for by the Catholic people without aid from the State,, was only 35, and it was expocted that only 20 ot these would prove to be physically fit. As the law was at present these nen had Ip go before a military sorvice board, and if the board directed them to go to fight they had no appeal. None of these teachors could be replaced. The educational work carried .on by the Church saved the State somo X'M.OOO per year. And tho Catholic people, with , 0700 of t'neir own men on service, asked, I ir. view of tho impossibility of replacing these teachers, that they be left hero to teach the children in tho w;ay that their people wished them to be educated. They were only a handful of men. It could not bo suggested that even the whole 33 if they were all sent would niako any difference to the winning of the war. Ho wished first to voto for tho exemption of all teachers, and if this could not ba allowed then he would vote for the exemption of Marist Brothers. In conclusion he assured the House that he was not at ail actuated by political motlvoJ in referring to this matter, but ho considered it nis duty to speak of it.

Many Exemptions. Dr. H. T. J. THACKEK (Christchurch East) spoke also of religious intolerance. He was in favour of tho eiomption of nil primary, secondary, technicnl, anu university teachers, medical a Jul otbor highly tcchuicall.v-traineii men. lie deprecated the sending of a. fully qualified dentist into the firing-liue as a "Tommy." He declared that this was "like mowing a lawn with a razor." and that New Zealand was reduced to caning upon such men because the country had been "over-soldierised." In support of tho demand for exemption for Marist Brothers, ho said that the stato of being a Marist Brother was not aii occupation, but, >i vocation. They were sworn to poverty and chastity, and to service in tho teaching of the young. Ho favoured, also, the exemption of theological students. Ho thought it was 'not economic" that wo should be sending 9111' men away when fchero were nine million men in Aihorica willing to go. No country of the size of New Zealand could the strain of "this panic business" of piling brigade on brigade. It was leavng us with a "huge, hideous debt,' for which he blamed the Minister of Defence. , ~ , SIB JOHN FINDLAY (Hawkos Bay) said he believed the House was in a mind of sweet reasonableness, and tfas

anxious to avoid anything likely io excite sectarian strife and bitterness. The Government had evidently not GottJod that _1 ho schedule should bo cust-iron, fl-acl he that the Houso should aliow* tho Bill to 30 to the committeo alage, tho liou. c iL» could hear what the Government proposed by way of amendment. to the Bill. ' Ali> A. WIiIGHT (Wellington Huburbs) said that ho would do Jiis best to fvoid words likely to ciitissfl strife, but ho did not agree with what had been said regarding Iho exemption of men because of their co'inection with a ch?irch. ill* wa,s not in favour of tho wholesale exemption of clorgy. The issuo as it presented itself to him was whether Hingis men should bo exempted, while married men were to take their places! Ijo exemption of any particular olasa tho community was going to create fic-nous difficulties. The Government would not know where to stop when the process of exemption began, and it would j bo much f nioro satisfactory to put tho I responsibility on the military servico | boards, which could deal witli cases on Mi en* merits. Every religious body could : aftord to send a fair proportion of its I clergy to share the sufferings and sacri- | nces of tho soldiers at tho front.

Every' Man's War. Mr. J. CRAIGIE (Timaru) said lie regarded the war as every man's war. It was a war for freedom and civilisation and for Christian ideals. Ho would vote against any general exemption of clergy. Many men who could ill. be spared were being sent to the front at tho present time. But tho first essential was to win tho war. Tho work of tho Churches would not stop if tho younger clergymen wcro required to do their share at the front. There were retired clergymen and women who would carry on the'necessary duties. Ho did not see how a young end physically fit clergyman who had claimed exemption from military service could offer any solace to the bereaved wives and mothers of men who had fallen at tho front. A true Christian surely eould not stand aside whgl tho coll to sacrifice came to the nation. Tho clergy would be doiuij a greater work if they > shared tho trials, sorrows, and sufferings of tho nation's manhood than if they stayed. behind in safety and comfort.

Mr. A. H. HINDMARSH (Wellington South) protested against tho revival of religious bigotry in any form. The rulo of government should be tolerance, and ho objected to .nn attempt to violate tho religious beliefs of any section of the community.

Mr. E. M'CALLUM (Wairau) said that up to the Twenty-fifth .Reinforcement the Roman Catholics had sent more than their quota of men on a population basis. Ho was sony the Government had not given the House a clear lead on tho subject of Marist Brothers. Tho military servico boards were being left to deeido whether or not these men were in holy orders. He believed himself that they should be regarded as being in holy orders, since' they had taken life-long vows. The members of the House ought to rise superior to sectarian feeling. Mr. R. P. HUDSON (Motnekaj) (aid ho thought the boards should be left to settle all appeals on their merits. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said the refusal to grant exemption to Marist Brothers could ba regarded only as an act of intolerance.

Mr. Payne said that the attempt to violate the beliefs of Roman Catholics 'in relation to Marist Brothers was not creditable to the Dominion. It was duo to the efforts of a bigoted individual who deserved "tho big heavy boot." "Always a Primitive"!. 5Tr. A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) said that ho was a Primitive Methodist—"always been a Primitive," ho said in answer to doubters round about him—but ho was not in favour of forcing a Bill through "in tho moribund hours of Parliament" lo send the Marist Brothers to fight. Mr. J. S. DICKSON (Parnell) said that he thought there should be no exemptions. No niinistors of religion should be exempt as such. Ho thought all single m*n should be sent before married men wore called upon. He was not in favour of the exemption of Marist Brothers, because he considered them slmplv as school teachers. He regarded tho argument as to tho number of men affected sis fallacious. He did not see whv students for the Catholic priesthood should bo exempted. In Auckland all the students in thp Church of England and Methodist colleges had gone to the war, and tho colleges had been closed down. He stood for equal rights and obligations for all and special privileges for none. ■ Mr. J. COLVIN (Butter) said that ho favoured tlie exemption of Marist. Brothers because t'liey were doinn- good work in the country the young. The Catholic schools, lie said, were relieving the State of bearing expenditure—half a million m the last forty vears—and if the Brothers were eent to the war the schools would all have to bo closed down. Win the War First. Mr. W. NOSWORTHY (Asliburlon) 6aid ft was common knowledge in tne House that no measure had caused more heartburnings in tho Government than the present measure. It had stood untouched 011 the Order Paper for a long lime. Something had been said about Ireland in the debate. He thought it better fo say nothing about Ireland at present. Mr. Dickson: Read the paper to-night: ilr. Nosworthy said that if he had wisited to givo an acrimonious turn to the debate ho could have challenged some of the statements about Ireland, but he did not wish to do so. Ho wished .to say straight out that ho was not going to vote for'the exemption of teachers, nor for the exemption of Marist Brothers. The time Had come when every able-bodied man must bo prepared to go to the war. The teachers did not object to going to tho war. Marist Brothers had priests to appeal for them, but teachers had nobody lo appeal for them, and they would iiot be pleased to be wrapped up with those who did object to serve. He would not go so far as to say that all ordained clergymen should go to the war. But bo did say that if there was ono class that ought to ba oxempted in the period of the war that class should be farm labourers. Tho danger to England now was tho shortage of food, and everything should be subordinated to keeping up the food supplies. He realised that t'du. cation vas tho greatest "boon that any people could givo to its young, but he did say that wa should, if necessary, concentrate on winning the war first and educate tho people afterwards. It would bo useless to cducate the people and lose tho war. . Mr. J. V. BROWN (Napier) said n* could see no reason for so much fuss about thirty men. He hoped the Houso would soon get lo a vote on the Bill. Mr. A. WALKER (Dunedin North) supported tho claim for ilio exemption of Marist Brothers. Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) said tho schedule was too narrow. It excluded somo religious denominations that were as much entitled to exemption as the bodies mentioned by the Minister. Education wos an essential industry and ought to bo considered on that basis. He favoured the oxciuption of teachers iu Church schools. Mr. J. M'COMBS (T.yttelton) argued that Now Zealand had already sent too many men. No more men should bo eent compulsorily.

Minister in Reply. SIB JAMES ALLEN, in reply, said that if the policy advocated by somo members had been carried out I\ew Zealand would not have played its part in the war. Ho bad done his best the clamour for the increase of' Ills main bodies. 110 had resisted the formation. of the Fourth Brigade. But Ins clear duty had been to reinforce tho main bodies when they had bee'i created. The Fourth. Brigade was now being used to relieve other New Zealand brigades, and if it was required for reinforcements it would bo used for that purpose. There was practically nothing contentious in the Bill except the exemption of religious orders. He had studied tho corresponding British law very carefully, and had made it tho basis of his Bill. The British law did not exempt Marist Brothers. He could tell the House that the Unitarian Church had asked to be excluded from the schedules of tho Bill, and he applauded a combatant church. His Bill did not exompt religious orders. The British law provided that appeals from members of these orders should be referred to fiio War Oilico for consideration. 110 had been informed that in Britain members of religious orders,' although not legally exempted, were not at present being

called up. That was the otloct. of n cablegram -ho had just received from the High Commissioner. Britain had not prompted religious orders, but had nol yet called them up. New Zealand so far l'nd followed the same system. The cases of * members of religious orders had been postponed sine; die. Ho realised there was a great, cioal in what Sir Joseph Ward had said that afternoon. If tlio House decided to exempt religious orderß he would do his best to give effect to Iho decision, though personally ho would not support it. Demands for Exemption. If exemptions were granted to teachers there would be other demands for exemption. Honourable members knew —and it was just as well to be perfectly plain about it—that_ there was no very great chance of socurinj exemption for religious orders without having some others tackod on to them. The scheme was to tack them on to the teachers. Personally, ho was sorry_ ho could not atrreo to include teachers in any exemption at all. Thero was difference of opinion among members u: the Cabinet on this point, and ho was giving to the House only his personal opinion. i I®®'' l " ers had volunteered m considerably numbers, and they with other educated mon were of great value to the Force •at the front. Were tlio other teachers left behind to bo exempted wlule their mates had gone to the iront. Ho believed that after the war it would be found that the most successful teachers and the most successful preachers would 1)0 tlio men who had ffono 'o Hie front. He btlie»ed ft would be possible to allow won* tea n hers to go. Perhaps there would be some little deterioration in instruction. but there, were more tesenual than education at piesent, and nno of them was the. cnltiva'ion of land for the production of food. I\ex, in 01 der came coal-miners, woollen mill wo. tiers and so it would go on until tlio coemptions would grow to proportions too large to be considered. Mr. Brown: Are you going to send all and leave only the Dutchmen here? Sir .Tames Allen: "I* tho honout.tblo member'had his way and all these exemptions were granted, we should hate nobody to send." He «wid th«t. he lind nothing very much to say against th ■ exemption of religious orders, but tlio attempt. was being made to secure exemption for them on the backs of the teachers Ho commended the very restrained speech of honourable members m reteronce to the Bill. . The Bill was read a second time on the voices. The Exemption of Religious. In Committee, Sir Josenh Ward moved an amendment to Clause 3 to provide for the exemption of all teachers, including Marist bro''ho* was superseded, however, by two other members with prior amendments. Mr Wvi"ht iprooosed to cut out tlio description "in holy orders" to determine the right of a minister to be ex01TheeCamemiii)ent waa defeated on the voices. e _ ~ ~ „„ Br A. K. Newman then moved another prior amendment to strike out .-lie Fohednle setting forth the religious denominations of wlneh ministers should k*This'auiendme'ut was agreed to on the voice. Crucial Division. A division was theil taken on Sir Joseph Ward's amendment, and it was carried 'by 36 votes to 32. Ayes (SSIBrown M? ers Carroll Colvin Dickie i yu Poniare Field, T. AH. Poole yield, W. H. Russell Findlay t % i? W Iletcher -p"Vk, I-* Forbes - .Talbot Glover .in Hunan- I'Tif Hindmarsh T ' Walker i • Ward Jennings w jrC'allum , M'Cointo Mander AVittj Noes (32). Allen Massey Anderson Newman, A. I . Anstev Nowuinij. EBollard ' Noswwthy Craigie Okey Dickson, J. M- Parr Guthrie Jbodes, T. WHarris Scott H.evdman §! u !, 'G* Herries ; frith am Hornsby Hudson JJ; 11 .^ 011 Hunter rl ?bt Leo oun ß A division was then called on the clause as amended. The eftect of the deletion of the clause would have been the cutting out of all reference to. exemption of .men in holy orders or ministers of religion. The clause was retained bv 36 votes to 33. ' In this division Mr. Mac Donald voted with the majority (not having voted in the first division), and Dr. Pomaro voted against the clause. (Left sitting.)